One thing Captain's need

[Lestache]

In other words, unless the captain has 13 audacity out there, they don't stand a chance, right?

That's kind of the point of having gear with a PvP stat on it - if you don't have it, you're going to suffer. If the stat has so little of an effect that people with less of it or none of it can function well, the stat has no point.

@OP - Someone's gotta be at the bottom of the DPS totem pole. A class that has all the tools that a Captain does probably should've have a lot of DPS. Then again, someone seemed to think that it was a good idea to give a primary healing class silly high burst DPS (hi Minstrels) with no penalty to self-heals, so I suppose it doesn't matter.

[Almagnus1]

That's kind of the point of having gear with a PvP stat on it - if you don't have it, you're going to suffer. If the stat has so little of an effect that people with less of it or none of it can function well, the stat has no point.

There's a really big difference in comm investment if only 6 pieces are needed to be functional, than needing 9 or so just to have a shot at killing something.

If everything was working well, the captain should be able to pick up a more solo-friendly PvMP set and be able to solo in the 'Moors.

@OP - Someone's gotta be at the bottom of the DPS totem pole. A class that has all the tools that a Captain does probably should've have a lot of DPS. Then again, someone seemed to think that it was a good idea to give a primary healing class silly high burst DPS (hi Minstrels) with no penalty to self-heals, so I suppose it doesn't matter.

And since the WS Mini's DPS is what it is, that's reason enough to buff captain DPS.

[b4jet9597]

Give me raid wide Motivate and woc as a self heal and ill be 1 happy camper

[Armitas]

And from that post I remember you use Redline + 5-piece Command set? Do you 1v1 in that as well?

Still using that set, with loyalty gloves. After I stared losing I tried 3 perseverance 3 loyalty, and more crit jewelry. I couldn't win either way after my herald died so I'm not really sure if the other set was better or worse.

In the end we still have to out dps wrath so I think the command set is the best bet. Wrath is somewhere around 550 morale restored per hit. It all depends on the reavers morale, inc healing, tactical mastery. And the majority of the hits will be sudden strikes which is around a 1.5s hit, 0cd, and takes 2-3s (forget) off wrath cd with each hit.

If they really want to they can have wrath up the whole time with only 10-15s between wraths.

_____

Come to think of it....

I don't have a heavy tank build like some of you guys. Someone should try a full b/p/e tank build. As far as I know wrath won't heal if it's blocked, parried, evaded.

I keep hearing rumors there's a cappy on Elendilmir that is beating them regardless. He's on your server Maley, I'll send you a letter, maybe you can ask him to see what he can add regarding reavers. (edit: It turns out this was just morale bubbling to the extreme, which I don't agree with )

[BotLike]

A captain that groups on MoW trait-line has no problem with dps.

BB's strength of will + war cry + attack duration runes + red traits can get you up to -35% duration ,
with decent dps and high critical chance.
Played that way , dps goes up the roof , and keeping in mind we are a class than can heal A LOT while doing this , i
simply can't complain.

Now , about soloing , i see people claiming it is fine , but i cannot agree.
I feel useless , i get kited , stunned , rooted , power-drained , debuffed and all that , while i can't even reach the creep.
And yeah , i can;t chase either , almost all creeps can escape death if they want to.
It;s not as bad as it used to be but it's still bad.

I don't think trait lines need a revamp , unless that thread was about tanking - then i would agree.
What needs changing is the fail dps legacies on our LI's , they are just weak , and they don't inspire you to create a different weapon
for pvp/soloing/quest!It's mostly only the relics that make a difference.
I mean , come on , rooting cry dmg ??? You serious ?
Either that or boost herald play significantly.

It's a must.

[aadaboy19]

I agree that the damage legacies are a joke, I will try out using 5B+2R and see how I like that. Pre ROR I only used to run around redlined, now I dont think it is really the way to go with the morale pool the creeps have, simply takes too long to get them down, and incoming healing to self is severely hurt in doing so. I think now the best way to go is to run with Blue. I would agree about the -35% attack duration, and the amount of outgoing damage you can do to the creeps with revealing mark, routing cry, war-cry (haha forget the actual name if that isnt it), and sure strike with command armor. Looking at 40% more damage, but all of that cannot be sustained, and most people will be out with telling mark for the incoming heals to combat bleeds. War-cry can only be used with a defeat response skill, and Blade bro/Shield bro can only be used when you have a herald or fellow. The purpose of this is to talk more about the state of a solo captain, or say a captain that gets jumped midway to a raid etc....either way having to fight alone. I think Heralds need some serious work, or at least have the audacity same as freep. Spiders pets do tons of damage, and have high health....my herald, archer has neither. The loss in morale, phys mastery, etc from using a herald is too damaging IMO against a flayer warg, I can see the benefit. Perhaps with a BA too, but not so with an in your face creep, shadow warg, reaver, not even with a spider, as the spiders pet unless killed quickly will kill your herald if they are smart.

As far as the morale buffer, I like what you said about it being like a bubble, to where the benefit of the morale buffer runs out, then switch to the coldfells banner (Rank 8 to obtain). The coldfells banner has same passive stats as Banner of War, when planted it provides like 1700 phys and tact mit. Another suggestion is sometimes before I pop VS and I have the coldfells bannre out, I will replace it with morale banner again, because I dont want any morale I receive from heals to go to waste, let the morale pool get large again and switch as required. Dont waste the amount of damage you can receive.

Does 2 Red increase your critical multiplier including heals? Also, if you have the armor sets, I like the loyalty helm, command pauldrons, those are the 2 that I never change out, when using VS especially, I usually flip to 5 pers because of the tact healing and crit rating on the set, makes VS heal crits pop for 600-800, with muster courage averaging 500-600 you can regen morale pool rather quickly.

[Farriel]

Someone should try a full b/p/e tank build. As far as I know wrath won't heal if it's blocked, parried, evaded.

I keep hearing rumors there's a cappy on Elendilmir that is beating them regardless. He's on your server Maley, I'll send you a letter, maybe you can ask him to see what he can add regarding reavers.

Thanks for clarification and you got me interested in the moors tank build I've been slowly collecting jewelries with vit/ morale + block rating, just so that I can block more when I kite with stick & board, but I might take that another step. Good to know wrath won't heal if its b/p/e-ed! And I'd love to hear from unbeatable cappy on Elendilmir!

I think Heralds need some serious work, or at least have the audacity same as freep. Spiders pets do tons of damage, and have high health....my herald, archer has neither. The loss in morale, phys mastery, etc from using a herald is too damaging IMO against a flayer warg, I can see the benefit. Perhaps with a BA too, but not so with an in your face creep, shadow warg, reaver, not even with a spider, as the spiders pet unless killed quickly will kill your herald if they are smart.

Does 2 Red increase your critical multiplier including heals? Also, if you have the armor sets, I like the loyalty helm, command pauldrons, those are the 2 that I never change out, when using VS especially, I usually flip to 5 pers because of the tact healing and crit rating on the set, makes VS heal crits pop for 600-800, with muster courage averaging 500-600 you can regen morale pool rather quickly.

Heralds with r13 audacity?? I would love that, lol. But, I think they are suppose to be just a distraction/ extra heal/ some dps XD I haven't lost to high rank flayer wargs yet. It's a seriously boring fight, but they lose power before I do and that's how I win. So, a herald is proly not necessary at all against a flayer warg. I appreciate my power banner + focus buff against them.

As for 2 Red line bonus of 15% melee crit multiplier, it must be affecting heals as well, because my VS heal crit for 1000-1200 wearing 5 Command + 1 Loyalty. Although, my MS crit for 700-900, and is not melee skill, so I don't know. I'm suspecting the idea I stole from Armitas to stack incoming healing rating from relics is working wonders

[aadaboy19]

Hmm interesting. I will have to take a look at the incoming healing rating relics. Any idea on what percentage they increase your incoming heals by? I was also thinking about stacking crit defense cuz of BAs and Wargs damage survive on their crits.

[Armitas]

Hmm interesting. I will have to take a look at the incoming healing rating relics. Any idea on what percentage they increase your incoming heals by? I was also thinking about stacking crit defense cuz of BAs and Wargs damage survive on their crits.

Here is a very old example of the outcome of inc healing, tactical crit, and relentless optimism. It shows old heal numbers of muster courage. Its much higher for me now.

http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.p...11#post6509411

It works for all hot ticks and initial burst morale, VS, Inspire, MC, RC. Only takes two blue. RO/SFW.

[Pheriain]

And since the WS Mini's DPS is what it is, that's reason enough to buff captain DPS.

I think that is the key isn't it? There is no balance.

Many classes got major, beneficial overhauls and captains did not. If the "other" healing classes also have some of the best DPS in the game I have a very hard time seeing why we should be laying at the bottom of the DPS heap.

I don't think it would be rational to want INSANE dps but why is there a "bottom" of the dps heap anyways? Shouldn't we be somewhat balanced? It doesn't make sense to me. I don't gear myself with a focus on dps but it is something to ponder.

Who is in charge of the armor and gear anyways? Captains run around in piecemeal armor, 2 pieces of this, three pieces of that and 2-3 more sets in their bags for hotswapping. NO single armor set is "best" for end game pve. I think most end game raiding captains use pvp armor because the pve armor is not cutting it. I see other classes running around with their armor sets and all the captains in the moors are grinding comms for their gear.

[aadaboy19]

I do agree with that. I hate having no bag space ever because I have to run around with 4 different sets of armor, including stun pots that only stack to 20 instead of 100 and so on. Its frustrating in the extreme to switch to sword and board because of focus fire, then try to switch back to a 2 hander only to find out that you cannot because there is not enough bag space because someone in your group or raid killed something and you auto picked up trash... SOOOO GARBAGE at least allow us to "Lock" spaces in our gear bags for bound items only and such, to alleviate this problem. It is also frustrating to go in my bags to look for something only to find it has moved somewhere else and now i have to look for it; again being able to lock bag spaces will correct this.
Even in the damage traitline, most creeps will outlast us because of power consumption. It will still take most of my power just to burn through their 20k plus morale pool, not to mention any self heals they have or power drains. I would go as far as to say it would be practically impossible to kill a defiler with flies traited as they will never run out of power and yours will be constantly gone.... lame but just how things are.

I wouldnt mind seeing a higher crit multiplier on captain's give us an AOE slow and a fear that doesnt require us to use a setting spot. You lose too much by having to remove the setting from your weapon and item, unless you put it on a swap, again more bag space.... really dumb. The fear however would be good for reavers, spam sure strike get your cry up, perhaps cry reduction in redline and if you can fear them several times throughout the fight at the right moments, would make the fight much easier and give the heals more time to work. Also it would be the best form of CC that captain's have. Can someone tell me if it is a 10s fear, or 5s, I dont remember? Also, if I put the fear setting on a weapon and an item does it make it a 20% chance to apply the fear instead of a 10% chance? Thanks,

[Armitas]

Don't forget that fear is a pain in pve. You open on a trash mob then have to go chase it down. You'd have to have two seperate sets for pvp and pve otherwise it will drive you crazy.

And I agree, why do we need to sacrifice dps for the fear when we don't even have dps when we try for it.

[Jeremi]

BETTER DPS!!!

Im not talking about better DPS as in drastically change our numbers, but my GOD why is the captain dps SO SLOW, btw has anyone else noticed how if you are knocked out in the middle of DB it fails to recover once you recover; and if you crit opening up your defeat responses and are knocked out, when you recover they are gone? And no, I do not mean gone as in the defeat response timer ran out, but gone as in I am in the moors and use a stun recovery pot and am back up in a second and the skills are still greyed out gone. Is that written as intended? That problem seriously dampens the captains effectiveness in the moors if our defeat response skills and DB are rendered unusable when they should still be active. And why does a tanking class have better DPS than captain's o.O Even with telling mark, 10% outgoing damage on sure strike, 2k might, 35k phys mastery, 2nd age 2hander with 3 crystals, and it still takes forever to kill an afk reaver... UGH

ok, venting over, but seriously, we need at least a step up on our damage, captains arent only meant for raids and fellows, at least make us a little more sufficient when soloing... and perhaps give us some Debuff skills, every creep class can provide at least 1 significant debuff to you, some can do 4-5 and others can chain debuffs....seriously, if there was a captain build only usable in the moors I would rather do that. Actually that brings a good point. Turbine should make a thing where you can either use your world wide character, or create a moors freep, only usable in the moors, but with different skills and traits than what you get in a normal freep. Would be an interesting venue, but doubt anything like that would ever happen.

Well it's been awhile since I've participated in the Captain's forum, since I've been taking time off to focus on my Warden. It's nice to see nothing has changed and people are still dissatisfied along the exact same themes as they were a year ago.

I've never really understood the gripe with Captain DPS and probably never will. I've always found it adequate, and still do - especially in a solo context as you seem to be framing your argument. Never have I had any trouble hurting things when I'm alone - and considering the healing, buffs, and added utility we bring to a group - it's unreasonable to expect us to be able to compare with a champion or hunter for damage. It's important to keep in mind you are a support class, not a DPS class - and your role in a group is not to do a lot of damage. It is to support your group by assisting them to do their roles easier and more effectively, and at that Captains do excel.

That isn't to imply I don't think Captains have any weaknesses from a solo perspective though. The class is very weak in the interrupt department for example, and that can hold them back on some solo content. So I would say if Captains could use anything to make them more effective soloers, it would be to give us a much faster interrupt, because Kick (although a good skill) just doesn't get the job done sometimes.

As far as your Moors comments, while I'm not a serious pvper and have never ranked my Captain up - my initial impression was Captains suck at solo PvP, and I would never choose this class for soloing in the Moors. So in that we are in agreement. But I don't think it's a lack of damage that is the cause of that. I think the blame lay more with our lack of a fast interrupt and very limited self-healing abilities. We are also way too easy to kite. Soloing in the Moors as a Captain is just asking for higher blood pressure if you ask me.

[Armitas]

It's important to keep in mind you are a support class, not a DPS class - and your role in a group is not to do a lot of damage.

Here is a reasonable equation for a support class. (captain power = Personal contribution + Group buffs).

Where captain power is equal to champ* power and so on down the line in a group.

Do you see the problem with this equation?

When we are grouped we are equal with the champ in available power (though different). When we are disbanded half of that equation is missing and not retrievable. The champ will leave the group with no loss, due to his equation. We will leave the group at half power due to the equation.

*champ = just an example, stand in.

It is the very nature of this equation, and our inability to alter it while solo that keeps us relegated to an alt class.

A "support" class should have a plan B for when there is nothing to support, otherwise it is and will always be an alt class.

[Jeremi]

Here is a reasonable equation for a support class. (captain power = Personal contribution + Group buffs).

Where captain contribution is equal to champ* contribution and so on down the line in a group.

Do you see the problem with this equation?

When we are grouped we are equal with the champ in available power (though different). When we are disbanded half of that equation is missing and not retrievable. The champ will leave the group with no loss, due to his equation. We will leave the group at half power due to the equation.

*champ = just an example, stand in.

I see your point but don't agree with your premise, at least not as broadly as you state it.

Unless you are doing something that is very DPS intensive, such a timed challenge fight or something along those lines where high AoE damage is essential, I would say a Captain brings more to a group than does a Champion. In the context of a group - few (if any) classes bring as much to a fellowship or raid as does a Captain in my opinion. They are so versatile and contribute on so many different levels simultaneously that I would say their "power" as you call it surpasses that of other classes when utilized in a group. So in a way I think it balances out that more of their potential goes away when they are not in a group than that of other classes.

[Herja]

I'm sorry if someone already made this point, but we need dps mainly cause we are simply the biggest attack duration class in this game.

Not only on swinging a sword, but everything is sooo slow! Muster Courage, Words of Courage, you name it..... everything seems slow motion after you play any other class in this game.

The least captains should have are BIG hits. All skills, with some being awesome big.

[Armitas]

I see your point but don't agree with your premise, at least not as broadly as you state it.

Unless you are doing something that is very DPS intensive, such a timed challenge fight or something along those lines where high AoE damage is essential, I would say a Captain brings more to a group than does a Champion. In the context of a group - few (if any) classes bring as much to a fellowship or raid as does a Captain in my opinion. They are so versatile and contribute on so many different levels simultaneously that I would say their "power" as you call it surpasses that of other classes when utilized in a group. So in a way I think it balances out that more of their potential goes away when they are not in a group than that of other classes.

What we provide and what other classes provide are balanced out so that each class is equally desirable in a group, and equally powerful at what they provide. If that is not the case then buffing or nerfing is required. If you are right, and I don't believe you are, then we would require a nerf.

Simple game balance.

Captain = champ = mini = hunter = RK ...etc

But regardless of who you belive is more powerful the consequences of being ungrouped are undeniable. And the equation, while not an identical copy to the board room dev table, is faithfully accurate. It can be seen in several classes, each of which has the ability to alter their own equation except for us.

[aadaboy19]

Well it's been awhile since I've participated in the Captain's forum, since I've been taking time off to focus on my Warden. It's nice to see nothing has changed and people are still dissatisfied along the exact same themes as they were a year ago.

I've never really understood the gripe with Captain DPS and probably never will. I've always found it adequate, and still do - especially in a solo context as you seem to be framing your argument. Never have I had any trouble hurting things when I'm alone - and considering the healing, buffs, and added utility we bring to a group - it's unreasonable to expect us to be able to compare with a champion or hunter for damage. It's important to keep in mind you are a support class, not a DPS class - and your role in a group is not to do a lot of damage. It is to support your group by assisting them to do their roles easier and more effectively, and at that Captains do excel.

That isn't to imply I don't think Captains have any weaknesses from a solo perspective though. The class is very weak in the interrupt department for example, and that can hold them back on some solo content. So I would say if Captains could use anything to make them more effective soloers, it would be to give us a much faster interrupt, because Kick (although a good skill) just doesn't get the job done sometimes.

As far as your Moors comments, while I'm not a serious pvper and have never ranked my Captain up - my initial impression was Captains suck at solo PvP, and I would never choose this class for soloing in the Moors. So in that we are in agreement. But I don't think it's a lack of damage that is the cause of that. I think the blame lay more with our lack of a fast interrupt and very limited self-healing abilities. We are also way too easy to kite. Soloing in the Moors as a Captain is just asking for higher blood pressure if you ask me.

This whole thread is basically talking about the moors.... and I disagree with just about everything you have said. I love playing the captain in the moors, we do lack CC and such, BUT we can make or break a raid, a fellow, and our heals are MORE than adequate. with VS and muster courage I can easily get more than 1100+ morale every couple seconds, combined with high mits, and revealing mark, you can heal yourself a lot. however, with that said many of the creep classes can kite captain's forever to where captain's wont get a hit in, providing their movement is very good. The fear does stack to 20%, and I setup my bars to where the swap is not too disrupting; works great for creeps trying to run away. You obviously havent been out to the moors lately and fought a reaver that will use wrath in a 1v1.

What about this as an idea... Captains rarely ever use a herald in any situation, except when solo, however in the moors heralds suck because they die REALLY REALLY fast and take too much away not to mention there is no pet that carries the coldfells banner....epic fail btw... anyways, if they made heralds where you still gain a passive boost to stats, not as high as a banner, perhaps half, and increase the damage by about 200% and got rid of the inductions for the archer, I would like to see the heal instead of the moving target equivalent. I think this would truly allow the captain to be solo in the moorsif they so choose to without wrecking a raid.....

[Darkheart06]

The problem is balance. If you give the captain more DPS and keep his healing power, he would be way to strong.

Most defini-

*looks at Minstrel, LM, and RK*

Nevermind

[Thorondir]

Most defini-

*looks at Minstrel, LM, and RK*

Nevermind

yep .. a rk can do 2k DPS and 1k single target healing at the same time *head->table*

None of the above mentioned classes can do comparable damage to a real DD class AND heal at the same time.

[Darkheart06]

yep .. a rk can do 2k DPS and 1k single target healing at the same time *head->table*

None of the above mentioned classes can do comparable damage to a real DD class AND heal at the same time.

I was under the assumption that this topic was mainly about solo play and PvP.

In which case, yes, the classes I mentioned CAN put out some nasty DPS and self heal to absurd levels.

[joeblow8579]

I was under the assumption that this topic was mainly about solo play and PvP.

In which case, yes, the classes I mentioned CAN put out some nasty DPS and self heal to absurd levels.

After I finished leveling my Captain, I recently got my Minstrel to 85, and had plenty of circumstances where I kited/tanked/healed through (and killed) 5+ on-level enemies at once - something I could never do on my Captain.

[aadaboy19]

After I finished leveling my Captain, I recently got my Minstrel to 85, and had plenty of circumstances where I kited/tanked/healed through (and killed) 5+ on-level enemies at once - something I could never do on my Captain.

Yes, we all know the minni is overpowered....next subject

[Lestache]

Here is a reasonable equation for a support class. (captain power = Personal contribution + Group buffs).

Where captain power is equal to champ* power and so on down the line in a group.

Do you see the problem with this equation?

When we are grouped we are equal with the champ in available power (though different). When we are disbanded half of that equation is missing and not retrievable. The champ will leave the group with no loss, due to his equation. We will leave the group at half power due to the equation.

*champ = just an example, stand in.

It is the very nature of this equation, and our inability to alter it while solo that keeps us relegated to an alt class.

A "support" class should have a plan B for when there is nothing to support, otherwise it is and will always be an alt class.

The champ in your example (and any other class you could put in there) is also lesser when not grouped with you. If we actually were the same with or without you, then your contribution truly would be nil, and I know that you're not saying that it is.

[Armitas]

I'm referring to "no loss" to their equation.

Their equation can equal the same total when they leave the group (Champ = personal contribution). Other classes that have a complex equation have the ability to alter their equation. (Guard = personal contribution + Tankability). They can now alter their equation by subtracting from "tankability" and adding to personal contribution (New OverPower), in contrast to their historically low personal contribution while tanking.

Our personal contribution is held down because "group buffs" is unalterable. Because we can't have both high personal contribution and high group buffs we are stuck with low personal contribution. At least until we are afforded the same ability to alter our equations like other classes.