Should Weapon / Armour swapping be disabled while in-combat?

[Wilksie]

I think armour and weapon swapping during combat should be stopped as it is inadvertently killing this game. I'm talking as someone who swaps stuff in combat a LOT. At a basic level, as a champ swapping between a 2 handed weapon and dual wield depending on the skill will give me about 5% more DPS than someone that doesn't do this. I also have a rune with some lesser known legacies on it. If I want to used my crafted horn I equip it, hit the horn button (with the maxed legacy from the rune) then swap my main rune back in. This however is only the tip of the iceberg.

Captains are perhaps the worst offenders for this as the differences between a swapping captain and non-swapping captain are huge. For those that night not know, captains can equip a 4 set bonus that makes an AoE healing strike (valiant strike) create a defeat response, a defeat response then allows them to use Rallying Cry - a much more potent AoE heal. By then swapping 6 bits of armour they can then combine set bonuses to reduce the cooldown of Valiant Strike to 4 seconds (with LM pet and herald in range) and Rallying Cry to 6 seconds, or using different sets they can make Rallying Cry CD 0 (if a defeat response is imminent). In practice this means captains can spam these 2 healing skills constantly and outheal healers - in excess of 4,500 heals per second in some cases.

Loremasters can swap armour to ensure they takes advantage of all previous bonuses (35 sec mezzes, 20 sec baneflares, extra waterlore pulses, +5% incoming crit chance e.t.c.).

I'm sure every class could give themselves a huge boost by doing this. While I enjoy doing this I find it a little sad that to do the current T2C content you HAVE to be able to do this. I can guarantee that every kin that has completed T2C Erebor will have been using armour swapping captains and probably most players. It's great to watch a video of a kin making a fight look easy, the reason is, they probably did make it easy by using these tricks. If your kin don't do this and you are trying to learn these fight, don't bother, they are not possible.

Turbine is clearly happy for us to do this as they know it goes on all the time but make no attempt to stop it happening. All they would need to do would be disable swapping items while in combat. You pick your setup before you start a fight and you are stuck with it until you wipe or win. It's not considered an exploit, or cheating, it's part of the mechanics as the game currently stands.

I think the current T2 challenges are SO difficult because of this. Turbine needs to challenge the weapon/armour swapping kins. Unfortunately it means those that don't do this are wasting their time. Even though I'm very much in the weapon and armour swapping club I think the game would be much more well rounded if they put an end to it.

[Rainothon]

Is it against this game's rules? No.

Is it entirely up to you and your kinnies to place whatever limitations you wish upon yourselves when doing content? Yes.

So basically, the problem is only there if you make it so. The game allows you to try T2C without gear if you wish to. Or with gear-swapping. Or with full gear but no swapping.

All it takes is you and your fellowship to 'want to take up the gauntlet' on it. No need for Turbine to interfere and fix for you what breaks it for someone else.

[Wilksie]

My point is that it is now an essential part of the game in order to complete certain content. It seems like a bad way to play having to swap entire armour sets every few seconds in order to make progress.

[Achlys]

Stopped? No. Induction timer added to swap when in-combat? Yes.

If a group wants to tank a mob a little while longer whilst other party members swap out gear, that should be a valid and potentially interesting tactic. However, it should take time to swap out so that players cannot swap, use skill, swap again, use next skill, swap again... Swapping should have a disadvantage and the time it takes to swap in the heat of battle would imho balance out the gains from swapping.

It should still be allowed however in case a player has forgotten to equip an item or has the wrong damage type on their weapons for this encounter. But the timer would make it more of a tactical choice rather than something to take advantage of between skills.

Out of combat swapping should remain instantaneous.

[Leo_Dan]

I don't think they take swapping into consideration when developing content.

Additionally, I heard somewhere that they tweak T2 challenge to be done with 3rd ages and no gold gear. Being able to complete content in this game is all about class knowledge and instance knowledge. Having the new gear or good gear combinations should just make completing the content more easily.

[BigLotroFan]

Weapon swapping killing the game? No. I don't think it is even essential to game play. Don't see a need to change it. Leave it as it is imo.

[Wilksie]

Weapon swapping killing the game? No. I don't think it is even essential to game play. Don't see a need to change it. Leave it as it is imo.

A) Do you personally weapon / armour swap?

B) Does anyone in your raid group?

C) Have you tried or completed Erebor T2C?

If you have completed it without anyone swapping then hats off to you. Sure you can play the game without doing it, you just can't complete the hardest content without it.

[swt46]

In my opinion, armor swapping during combat is simply ridiculus. However weapon changes should be allowed. Allowing armor changes is contrary to what is reasonable. One can visualize drawing a different weapon from a shealth, but changing armor while still performing other actions in combat is not realistic.

Somewhere in the forumes within the last two months a turbine "blue" poster indicated that they preferred it wasn't done.

Perhaps an armour change should take 30-60 seconds. During this time the armor value is 0, no stat bonuses and even skills would be disabled. Would be a whole lot easier to just have no armor changes while in combat.

Not sure if the instances can only be done with armor swaps. If true, not very good design in my opinion. Especially as this game doesn't seem to be designed for the rapid high twitch elite gamer crowd.

[Whatevaplz]

This would be another blunder for Turbine, same as their propose class tree skills to facilitate class differentiation.

One of the key aspects on how to make money in an MMO is to keep players engage playing. What I meant is to keep them inside the game. The longer player plays the more chances he/she gets to buy something in store. Same as any store or most stores, if you look closely or ever wonder why the main stuff like food, produce is all the way back of the store and away from the entrance. The longer you walk towards the "necessities" the more chances you get to buy "unnecessary" stuff.

I'm getting carried away here what I was saying is that simply this. Players should be encourage to customize their character to it's full potential, or have them engage in a different role. Not saying all should be able to do particular stuff but not as good as a particular class. The more folks play and customize their toons the more healthy the population and gives it more diverse way to group. The more folks try to get armour pieces to help them grow the more ENGAGE they are playing.

About captains I do have one as well with 0 sec rally cries but the problem with that is that you need to KILL mobs to spam it. Unless you really get lucky with multiple crits in a row with a skill that has timers Battleshout-pressing/dev CRIT to activate. I can't even swap when I do it or else I break the 0 secs rallies. So is not the problem, you probably seen it shine on instances that have easy kills like GB series. Also it decreases my crit value/armour value by alot. Other than that I don't see it making a BIG deal about armour swaps.

[Grimdi]

Stopped? No. Induction timer added to swap when in-combat? Yes.

If a group wants to tank a mob a little while longer whilst other party members swap out gear, that should be a valid and potentially interesting tactic. However, it should take time to swap out so that players cannot swap, use skill, swap again, use next skill, swap again... Swapping should have a disadvantage and the time it takes to swap in the heat of battle would imho balance out the gains from swapping.

It should still be allowed however in case a player has forgotten to equip an item or has the wrong damage type on their weapons for this encounter. But the timer would make it more of a tactical choice rather than something to take advantage of between skills.

Out of combat swapping should remain instantaneous.

Yeah, that would be my suggestion as well, after swapping an item in you have to wait 5-10s or until combat ends before swapping back/another item. Personally I consider macro-hotswapping whole sets for 1s to get a skill bonus as an exploit (I know it's not by Turbines definition).

[Gylve]

Agreed 100%. In-combat swapping creates a situation where swapping (often, macro-ing) players are light years ahead of people who don't do it. Captains can do an insane amount of armor swapping these days to get ridiculous HPS and super short in-combat rez cooldowns. Totally ridiculous and one of my least favorite things about this game's combat system.

[Kongas]

Some people have advantages because they are young, some people have advantages because they are time-rich, some people have advantages because of their friends and some people have advantages because they have a big disposable income.
You're never going to get a level playing field in a game so I don't think it's worth bothering about.

I use every gaming device going to hot-key stuff like potions and skill triggers that require Shift [x] type key presses. I'm nearly 60 and need every advantage I can get to keep up with younger players with good reflexes and the time to grind raids for the best gear. I do hot swap weapons for a few buffs but not armour. But only bacause there's nothing to be gained from it for this hunter.

This doesn't, paradoxically, make the game easier for me. It makes it more frantic and makes it much more enjoyable. It keeps me playing and keeps me paying. Take it away and leave my ancient reflexes stabbing a hard to see mouse pointer over banks of icons and I'd probably look for another game. I take a lot of pleasure from trying to play the best I can and if I don't have reflexes I do have intelligence and ingenuity to use with (non-bot) gaming technology. (I agree with Turbine that so long as you're sitting at the keyboard pressing the keys then it's cool. The fact I'm pressing G11 instead of CNTRL-9 or G12 instead of hunting and clicking an icon shouldn't make a difference. )

I've never noticed armour swapping going on but I'm sure it must be. I don't really care. I'm not competing with them. In fact if I'm grouping with them what's good for them is good for me and v-v.

A very big part of the reason I have invested so much in gaming tech is precisely because I don't want to let other players down when I'm grouping with them.

[SabrielofLorien]

If I'm doing that Hytbold quest for the giant Avanc and he pops up on my fishing pole, I sure want to swap back to my weapons PDQ.

My LM as a slight advantage over my Guard. My Pet. Set pet /aggressive and at least I wont get smashed before I get my sword and staff back...

Now if there was a way to auto-link my sword to my off-hand, instead of main hand in a fight, that would be nice. Nothing worse than clicking the sword first.

[FastThickPants]

I think armour and weapon swapping during combat should be stopped as it is inadvertently killing this game.

It would make that extreme fishing quest in the Dunbog interesting. Might end up with some giant beasties doing some inadvertent killing of their own.

[Grimdi]

I don't really mind people switching to another weapon or such or using extra mouse buttons for easier access to pots or whatever. But changing your whole armor set for a single skill, then another set for the next skill and then back to your normal build within 2s certainly should have some penalty, easiest being the swap-cooldown.

[Wilksie]

The fact I'm pressing G11 instead of CNTRL-9 or G12 instead of hunting and clicking an icon shouldn't make a difference.

The real irony here is that what you are doing will give hardly any benefit but is against the Turbine code of conduct as you are effectively using macros - even if it only clicks 2 buttons by pressing 1 (as per your example).

Imagine now that you has 2 buttons, one puts on an armour set that makes Intent Concentration reset the CD of Heartseeker and made it instacast, the other puts on an armour set that causes Penetrating Shot to reset the CD of Intent Concentration. You could hit button 1, click Intent Concentration then insta-cast Heartseeker, then hit button 2 click Penetrating shot to reset Intent Concentration - rinse and repeat. That is essentially the Hunter equivalent of what the captains are doing.

Any hunters not doing this would be at a huge disadvantage DPS wise.

Please note, the above example is fictitious (unfortunately) and is for illustrative purposes only.

[Kongas]

I don't really mind people switching to another weapon or such or using extra mouse buttons for easier access to pots or whatever. But changing your whole armor set for a single skill, then another set for the next skill and then back to your normal build within 2s certainly should have some penalty, easiest being the swap-cooldown.

Using my logitech macroes there's no way you could do that in 2 seconds. All they do is simulate key-presses. That's 18 key presses and I've found that for macroes to work properly (when I was trying to get a 'perfect' attack rotation onto a single keypress) there has to be a delay programmed between each command. I found it easier just to press each key individually.

My most complex macro swaps weapons, cast a buff and swaps back. That in itself takes 2 seconds (and uses up 4 of a limited number of interface slots capable of being hotkeyed.)

Maybe that's a logitech limitation and people are using other software. It still doesn't really bother me. What with differential lag and connection speeds I suspect any cure would be worse than the disease and have unintended consequences all over the shop.

EDIT - Turbine have nothing against macroes. They have something against automated macroes that allow the player to do stuff without being present last time I checked.

Edited to add: sapience has said in the past he uses one of the G series logitechs.

Here's what Turbine say about them in DDO

http://support.turbine.com/ics/suppo...et=73+57+25+21

Can my Logitech G15 Gaming Keyboard be used with DDO?

Yes! The Logitech G15 Gaming Keyboard has 18 fully programmable macro keys.

With these macro keys you can:

Program catch phrases or frequently used emotes for your characters.
Program In-game player commands such as /death, /tell, /invite, /gu etcetera.
Create and customize one touch actions.

What they don't like is botting. My guess is a very large % of players use gaming devices to help play. Certainly it's discussed openly in forums all the time without any blue name leaping in.

[Wilksie]

EDIT - Turbine have nothing against macroes. They have something against automated macroes that allow the player to do stuff without being present last time I checked.

18. You may not create, post, use or distribute any utilities, emulators or other third party software tools without the express written permission of Turbine (including, without limitation, macroing programs, botting programs, server emulators, client hacks, map hacks, and data gathering utilities).

[Kongas]

The real irony here is that what you are doing will give hardly any benefit but is against the Turbine code of conduct as you are effectively using macros - even if it only clicks 2 buttons by pressing 1 (as per your example).

Imagine now that you has 2 buttons, one puts on an armour set that makes Intent Concentration reset the CD of Heartseeker and made it instacast, the other puts on an armour set that causes Penetrating Shot to reset the CD of Intent Concentration. You could hit button 1, click Intent Concentration then insta-cast Heartseeker, then hit button 2 click Penetrating shot to reset Intent Concentration - rinse and repeat. That is essentially the Hunter equivalent of what the captains are doing.

Any hunters not doing this would be at a huge disadvantage DPS wise.

Please note, the above example is fictitious (unfortunately) and is for illustrative purposes only.

None of that would be instant but I still don't see it as anything that worries me. What I do see is a hunter that would be pulling aggro every 5 seconds and getting killed or booted. If people want to be clever about that sort of stuff they can knock themselves out for all I care. Doesn't hurt me if another hunter is doing that in my group, although personally I wouldn't do it. I couldn't stand the endless clicking of things swapping in and out or the disruption of the rotation flow. Also it seems, me being British and all, like trying a little bit too hard. But if others want to use simple macroes like that or just put them along a control bar and click back and forth (actually quicker than a macro if I were to try it) then it's no skin off my nose. I'm not competing with them.

[Kongas]

18. You may not create, post, use or distribute any utilities, emulators or other third party software tools without the express written permission of Turbine (including, without limitation, macroing programs, botting programs, server emulators, client hacks, map hacks, and data gathering utilities).

That has been discussed endlessly and it does not mean gaming keyboards automating simple keystokes to a single key-press. As I have shown, Turbine have said they have no problem with them.

[Wilksie]

I know it has been discussed a lot, and please lets not derail this thread into another are macro's accepted. My understanding is that Turbine have never said they support their use, they have just said they tolerate it and would prefer people not to use them.

If armour or weapon swapping was stopped in-combat, or if there was a delay in the bonuses applying of 30 seconds after a swap, as has been suggested, people wouldn't really have a need to use macro's. By tolerating their use, and giving us stacking set bonuses and no penalty for swapping continuously they are forcing the elite kins to use them if they want to compete. Great news for Logitech and Razer, not so good for our pockets.

[Faenyl]

paranoia

Captains tend to switch armor sets/weapons.. that's definitly true(for buffing purposes for instance).. but what you are trying to tell us is that people are switching armor/weapons for single skills.. no one.. atleast no one I ever met in this game is doing that.
Not only would you have to write macros for that unless you want to lose a big deal of dps while switching stuff, it would also cause quite a few lags.. every time you switch armor/weapons this thing is going to give you a short lag while it's updating your stats. Now imagine doing that once every 5 seconds (depending on the class).. uh oh.. I don't believe this is going work.

What is also wrong is your idea that challenge mode is not possible without swapping.. it definitly is. The new raids are designed in a way that the group has to act as a whole.. coordination is necessary. I did smaug on cm and the others on t2.. and I can hardly believe that the thing we are lacking is to swap armour sets/weapons.

personal conclusion: restriction not necessary, having different types of armour sets and weapons is something you don't have to get but it is something that can be useful in certain situations
I see this as a way of further improvement for your class/character rather than an unfair advantage.
People using too many macros tend to forget the basics tough.. I'd love to see some of those guys work without their little gadgets... *mad laugh*

[HunterGreen]

as it is inadvertently killing this game.

Really? Are you sure it's not the hyperbole?

[Wilksie]

Captains tend to switch armor sets/weapons.. that's definitly true(for buffing purposes for instance).. but what you are trying to tell us is that people are switching armor/weapons for single skills.. no one.. atleast no one I ever met in this game is doing that.

Wow, you need to ask around more as your cappies are seriously nerfing themselves if they dont. Here is a whole tread talking about it:

http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.p...econd-Cooldown

All the top raiding captains I know do this. Its the difference between 1k HPS and 4k HPS which in Erebor is quite the advantage. I agree is not required for Smaug Challenge or Flight T2 / Erebor T2.

[bohbashum]

Stopped? No. Induction timer added to swap when in-combat? Yes.

Out of combat swapping should remain instantaneous.

seems like a good comprimise

it does feel like it's braking the game somewhat. if macro swapping gear is such a huge part to completing content, it's completely unfair to those who don't/can't macro.

this forms some horrible elitiest communitys saying content is too easy, and saying classes are OP when they are purfectly fine when not swapping items. balancing just isn't possible if they have to take it into consideraction, even if turbine listening to there players, the macro swappers could be doing raids while non macro swappers are not, this makes feedback on content difficulty corrupt. the only people loseing are the mass migority who don't macro swap and who might have never in game thought of this "exploit"

Is it against this game's rules? No.

http://archive.lotro.com/support/218-eula

e. You may not develop, distribute or use any third party program designed to impact the Game experience, including without limitation software bots, cheats, hacks or any other software designed to provide a player with an advantage;

useing a macro to swap items instantly in combat to give a player an advantage follows that rules.

although it'd terribly hard to enforce and macro's are a huge part of mmo's for some. it's just too much of an advance in many cases.

so yeah, I support this.