War Goats in Helm's Deep

[sueana]

I think some of us are losing sight of the key fact that, despite what our individual opinion is on whether it is good or even appropriate to have Giant Goat mounts, we truly *already have* Giant Goats mounts as part of this game world and some, if not many, players choose to ride them currently.


So, if your argument is that Giant Goat mounts should not exist in this game world due to book lore reasons then my suggestion to to you is to create a new suggestion thread asking for the removal of the Giant Goat mounts. But that ship has already sailed -- I really doubt that after introducing and expanding on the Giant Goat mounts, and some players prefer these Giant Goats, that Turbine is going to change the game based on your suggestion.


If we can all agree that there are indeed Giant Goat mounts in this game then we'll be starting from the basis of fact and we'll be on the same page.


Now, hopefully, if we are on the same page here, we can make a factual statement that "some players currently choose to ride Giant Goat mounts in this game."


For some players, the mounts are very important -- players spend money on buying them from store or spend a lot of time completing deeds to acquire them and they enjoy the appearance of the mounts just like any other cosmetic aspect to the game.


Now, if you can step into the shoes of a player who prefers the Giant Goats and has been able to ride Giant Goats all the way up to Rohan, you might be able to recognize the travesty that is the omission of the Giant Goats in the mounted combat mechanic. Hence, the reason this in an open, current issue and the reason for this thread.


Turbine has a chance to rectify the omission of the Giant War Goat in this next expansion. I am confident that they will in this expansion or a future update, at the very least as a cosmetic option if not adding new quests to support the addition, because it is a shame to only have the option of a (laughable) war pony for dwarf and hobbit characters after riding a Giant Goat mount all along up until the need for mounted combat and the enhanced mount speed that comes with the war ponies.

This. I don't want a war goat, but I know a few people who DO!! Goats are already in the game. Don't use one if you don't like them.

[Radhruin_EU]

I think some of us are losing sight of the key fact that, despite what our individual opinion is on whether it is good or even appropriate to have Giant Goat mounts, we truly *already have* Giant Goats mounts as part of this game world and some, if not many, players choose to ride them currently.

Saying that the original addition of goats was unfortunate or lamentable isn't losing sight of anything, it's simply expressing a dislike.

If we can all agree that there are indeed Giant Goat mounts in this game then we'll be starting from the basis of fact and we'll be on the same page.

And that's as far as fact goes, and being on the same page on that doesn't necessitate any further agreement because your argument ignores things about the game's version of Middle-earth, never mind the books. However some players may supposedly feel about it, it simply isn't logical for there to be goat mounts as capable as the slightly 'magical' horses that the devs have included in the game's story and put in the hands of player-characters for the purpose of MC. There's nowhere sensible for them to have come from, you simply want them to pop into existence and logic be damned. And whatever else, as this *is* demonstrably a strongly story-based game your claim that the lack of war-goats is a 'travesty' ring hollow.

The Dwarves didn't ride to war, left to themselves. They always fought on foot.
Therefore, the Dwarves had no background or interest in breeding or training any sort of mount for war (ponies included, never mind goats)
Therefore, if any individual Dwarf is forced by circumstance to ride to war alongside Men (or Elves) then he's going to have to borrow a mount
Therefore, ponies. Because real people used ponies in war in real history. it's not 'laughable' at all (so that's another claim of yours which rings hollow)
...and even more so because the war-horses are supposed to be part Mearh, i.e. a little bit 'magical' and just plain better than anything else.

[Rasdun]

The Dwarves didn't ride to war, left to themselves. They always fought on foot.
Therefore, the Dwarves had no background or interest in breeding or training any sort of mount for war (ponies included, never mind goats)
Therefore, if any individual Dwarf is forced by circumstance to ride to war alongside Men (or Elves) then he's going to have to borrow a mount
Therefore, ponies.

You're missing the point that, in the context of the game, almost all of the (player character) dwarves do indeed ride to war (and everywhere else) and some, if not most, of them ride the Giant Goats. So this idea of needing to borrow a mount, and specifically a magic pony to engage in mounted combat, just doesn't hold any weight in the context of the game.

And a player role-playing as a dwarf who rides a Giant Goat, for example, would certainly laugh at the notion of prancing around on a magical pony instead (this is why I call them laughable -- you are obviously entitled to your own opinion about the ponies). Again, I have an anti-pony basis, but have never called for or suggested the removal of these magical ponies.


I much rather ride a Giant War Goat than a magical pony, but to each their own. In this game we all have a choice (having options is great). But then when we get to mounted combat, we no longer have a choice -- it is the magic ponies or bust! This is the situation that hopefully will be rectified soon.


You might be underestimating the creativity of Turbine's development team -- they could come up with many different scenarios or story lines that allow for this logical addition of the Giant War Goats such that our characters who have been riding the Giant Goats all along may continue to do so when participating in the mounted combat mechanic. And when that happens, don't worry, you guys who rather dislike these superior Giant Goat mounts should certainly be able to continue to use the magical ponies for mounted combat as you currently do now. Nothing much would change except for a welcome additional option that will allow for some consistency in mount choice.

[whheydt]

I think some of us are losing sight of the key fact that, despite what our individual opinion is on whether it is good or even appropriate to have Giant Goat mounts, we truly *already have* Giant Goats mounts as part of this game world and some, if not many, players choose to ride them currently.

I don't think I'd go so far as "many", but that probably depends on the definition of that term. If you mean "many" as an absolute number (1, 2, 3, many...), then yes, it's "many". On the other if you mean "many" as a "a large fraction of everyone mounted on their own steed", then no, I would not call it "many".

So, if your argument is that Giant Goat mounts should not exist in this game world due to book lore reasons then my suggestion to to you is to create a new suggestion thread asking for the removal of the Giant Goat mounts. But that ship has already sailed -- I really doubt that after introducing and expanding on the Giant Goat mounts, and some players prefer these Giant Goats, that Turbine is going to change the game based on your suggestion.

Goat mounts were a mistake, The mistake having been made, is not going to be corrected. Since there are goat aficianados, there are--and will be more--cosmetic goats. I don't like that (since their very existence is a mistake), but I agree that Turbine isn't going to rectify their mistake. It's not like goats have the impact that radiance did.

If we can all agree that there are indeed Giant Goat mounts in this game then we'll be starting from the basis of fact and we'll be on the same page.

I will concede that this is true....wrongly done, but true.

Now, hopefully, if we are on the same page here, we can make a factual statement that "some players currently choose to ride Giant Goat mounts in this game."

Yes, some players do so. They look damned silly, but they do ride goats.

For some players, the mounts are very important -- players spend money on buying them from store or spend a lot of time completing deeds to acquire them and they enjoy the appearance of the mounts just like any other cosmetic aspect to the game.

There is no accounting for taste.

Now, if you can step into the shoes of a player who prefers the Giant Goats and has been able to ride Giant Goats all the way up to Rohan, you might be able to recognize the travesty that is the omission of the Giant Goats in the mounted combat mechanic. Hence, the reason this in an open, current issue and the reason for this thread.

This is where we part company. Having made the mistake of using goats for mounts, compunding that mistake by allowing players to own their own goat mounts, and further compounding the mistake by allowing goat mounts to be used outside of Moria does not justify making an even bigger--and completely unsupportable--mistake by implementing War Goats. Omitting them from the game is at least a tacit admission that they were a mistake in the first place.

I would not say that the fact that there is an open debate taking place on the Forums, and in the Helm's Deep Forum in particular, is in any way indicative that this is an issue that needs to be addressed by Turbine. A *lot* of ideas recur as Forum suggestions that will never happen...and all for good reasons. This is just another member of that list. The only reason this particular thread exists and persists in an active state is because ONE person is pushing the issue, in spite of several other people showing why it should never be implemented.

Turbine has a chance to rectify the omission of the Giant War Goat in this next expansion. I am confident that they will in this expansion or a future update, at the very least as a cosmetic option if not adding new quests to support the addition, because it is a shame to only have the option of a (laughable) war pony for dwarf and hobbit characters after riding a Giant Goat mount all along up until the need for mounted combat and the enhanced mount speed that comes with the war ponies.

I am reasonably sure that HD is "feature complete" by now. Any change to the feature set for HD will probably be the removal of features that can't be completed in playable form by the time it launches. On the whole, and on the assumption that at least someone from Turbine has read this thread (and it's already been noted that it was discussed and dismissed in the RoR beta forums), Turbine is well aware that this idea is a bad one with minimal actual support.

[ArahadEketta]

Ok, those of you who want war-goats. Go out and kill some goats, skin them and then make goat leather. With that leather, make yourselves some goat-leather personnel carriers (BOOTS!!!).

Going by lore and lore alone, Dwarves are Infantry and that is their preferred method of combat. They had no problem with riding from point A to point B on the back of a pony but once they arrived at their destination, they hopped off and fought on foot. This is NOT WoW or any other fantasy game where the game-makers can make up their own lore. This is Lord of the Rings Online where Turbine has to at least attempt to follow the works of J.R.R. Tolkien. Have they bent the lore with this game? Of course they have but they have not technically broken the lore (I have major problems with RK's though). I can accept the lore-cookie with the goat mounts that we have even though I don't like them. I as a lore junky CAN NOT accept goats as an acceptable mount for mounted combat though.

[whheydt]

You're missing the point that, in the context of the game, almost all of the (player character) dwarves do indeed ride to war (and everywhere else) and some, if not most, of them ride the Giant Goats.

Speak for yourself. None of MY dwarves ride goats except for using the stable goats in Moria. They wouldn't be caught dead on a goat anywhere else. So far as they're concerned, goats are for (a) milking to make cheese, and (b) eating.

And a player role-playing as a dwarf who rides a Giant Goat, for example, would certainly laugh at the notion of prancing around on a magical pony instead (this is why I call them laughable -- you are obviously entitled to your own opinion about the ponies). Again, I have an anti-pony basis, but have never called for or suggested the removal of these magical ponies.

But are you role playing extruded fantasy product, or are you roleplaying as part of Middle-earth, based on The Hobbit and LotR?

I much rather ride a Giant War Goat than a magical pony, but to each their own. In this game we all have a choice (having options is great). But then when we get to mounted combat, we no longer have a choice -- it is the magic ponies or bust! This is the situation that hopefully will be rectified soon.

Your preference is noted. Several people in this thread disagree with the idea that goats, let alone War Goats should properly exist in LotRO. So far, Turbine appears to agree with those that prefer there be no War Goats.

You might be underestimating the creativity of Turbine's development team -- they could come up with many different scenarios or story lines that allow for this logical addition of the Giant War Goats such that our characters who have been riding the Giant Goats all along may continue to do so when participating in the mounted combat mechanic. And when that happens, don't worry, you guys who rather dislike these superior Giant Goat mounts should certainly be able to continue to use the magical ponies for mounted combat as you currently do now. Nothing much would change except for a welcome additional option that will allow for some consistency in mount choice.

What can you cite from LotR that gives even the slightest opening to create War Goats for the Free Peoples?

[Radhruin_EU]

You're missing the point that, in the context of the game, almost all of the (player character) dwarves do indeed ride to war (and everywhere else) and some, if not most, of them ride the Giant Goats. So this idea of needing to borrow a mount, and specifically a magic pony to engage in mounted combat, just doesn't hold any weight in the context of the game.

No, mate, since player-character Dwarves get their goats from NPC Dwarves in the first place and nobody rides to war on anything until Rohan. It's a thing about the Dwarves in this setting that they don't have cavalry. Rather like the Anglo-Saxons - some of them might use a horse (pony, whatever) to get to a battle but they'd then dismount and fight on foot.

And a player role-playing as a dwarf who rides a Giant Goat, for example, would certainly laugh at the notion of prancing around on a magical pony instead (this is why I call them laughable -- you are obviously entitled to your own opinion about the ponies). Again, I have an anti-pony basis, but have never called for or suggested the removal of these magical ponies.

Again no, since just because he rode a goat before doesn't mean goats would be any good at all for riding into battle. And we're well aware of your bias against ponies, but it won't get you anywhere since they belong every bit as much as hobbits, Elves or anything else about Middle-earth.

I much rather ride a Giant War Goat than a magical pony, but to each their own. In this game we all have a choice (having options is great). But then when we get to mounted combat, we no longer have a choice -- it is the magic ponies or bust! This is the situation that hopefully will be rectified soon.

Going on about choice is neither here nor there when that choice makes no sense. It's like asking for hobbit RKs or some other such senseless thing.

You might be underestimating the creativity of Turbine's development team -- they could come up with many different scenarios or story lines that allow for this logical addition of the Giant War Goats such that our characters who have been riding the Giant Goats all along may continue to do so when participating in the mounted combat mechanic. And when that happens, don't worry, you guys who rather dislike these superior Giant Goat mounts should certainly be able to continue to use the magical ponies for mounted combat as you currently do now. Nothing much would change except for a welcome additional option that will allow for some consistency in mount choice.

Oh, I'm sure the devs could make something up if they really wanted to (throwing lore, their own story and logic out the window all at the same time). That's not an argument for them doing it in the first place, though because it doesn't make an ounce of sense.

[Rasdun]

Well, I think faithfulness to LoTR lore should definitely be commended and some of you are obviously staunch defenders of lore. However, I think there is such a thing as being too rigid -- there are obviously some things in the game that don't quite hold 100% according to LoTR lore, but are there to add variety and enjoyment to the game experience.


Again, whether you personally like the Giant Goat mounts or not, they are indeed in the game and are enjoyed by (some) players. Even those opposed to the Giant Goats, are apparently not so opposed that they refrain from riding the Giant Goats within Moria. Others enjoy riding the Giant Goats everywhere.


The balancing point between game enjoyment and rigid adherance to lore is going to vary player to player. Since mounted combat has been added to the game for all races and dwarves have a clear association with the Giant Goats (in this game), not allowing the use of Giant Goats in mounted combat is a glaring omission. And hopefully we'll see the Giant War Goats added soon. Once added, everyone who doesn't like the Giant Goats can continue to use the magic ponies.


Some players who are truly devout to LoTR lore probably do not engage in mounted combat at all when playing on a dwarf or hobbit character. Just because it is there doesn't mean you have to participate - same is true of the current Giant Goat mounts and will be true of the future Giant War Goats.


But just becuase you don't like Giant Goats doesn't mean that no one does. And while you'll still be able to use your magic ponies, it seems a little rigid to insist that other players should not have the Giant War Goat option, consistent with the current regular mount options in the game.


Personally, I don't require that this game or the movies be 100% faithful to the LoTR books -- and I have come to understand and accept that they definitely aren't. And I enjoy them for what they are (well, I don't think the movies are all that great... but this game is quite good). If I want the real deal, I read the books again -- always a very enjoyable experience and not reasonably replicable as a MMO to the degree some might require or prefer.

[Radhruin_EU]

Well, I think faithfulness to LoTR lore should definitely be commended and some of you are obviously staunch defenders of lore. However, I think there is such a thing as being too rigid -- there are obviously some things in the game that don't quite hold 100% according to LoTR lore, but are there to add variety and enjoyment to the game experience.

And there are also things that don't get added even though some people would consider them so. Going on about variety doesn't make every idea you have a winner by default. This isn't just about some lore from the books, it's about what makes sense in the context of the game's version of things. Making goats the equal of Rohirrim war-horses wouldn't make sense, for the reasons I've already explained.

Again, whether you personally like the Giant Goat mounts or not, they are indeed in the game and are enjoyed by (some) players. Even those opposed to the Giant Goats, are apparently not so opposed that they refrain from riding the Giant Goats within Moria. Others enjoy riding the Giant Goats everywhere.

And that gets a huge "So what?" from me because nobody's preventing anyone from riding goats everywhere - they just can't fight while riding them. And that's fine, because it preserves something of the real spirit of the books. I think you gravely underestimate just how attached players are to the whole romance of Rohan - whetherr they've read the books or seen the movies. For a lot of players, goats can't hold a candle to that. You should know that by now because goodness knows how often you should have seen people say that here. It's why every single thread about war-goats gets the same response this one's getting. It's just not in the spirit of things.

The balancing point between game enjoyment and rigid adherance to lore is going to vary player to player. Since mounted combat has been added to the game for all races and dwarves have a clear association with the Giant Goats (in this game), not allowing the use of Giant Goats in mounted combat is a glaring omission.

Not at all. You're assuming a close association between Dwarves and mounted combat, not just goats, and that's bogus.

But just becuase you don't like Giant Goats doesn't mean that no one does. And while you'll still be able to use your magic ponies, it seems a little rigid to insist that other players should not have the Giant War Goat option, consistent with the current regular mount options in the game.

Just because you want mounted goats for combat you assume that lots of people do. The comments we always get on threads like this don't bear that out at all.

Personally, I don't require that this game or the movies be 100% faithful to the LoTR books -- and I have come to understand and accept that they definitely aren't. And I enjoy them for what they are (well, I don't think the movies are all that great... but this game is quite good). If I want the real deal, I read the books again -- always a very enjoyable experience and not reasonably replicable as a MMO to the degree some might require or prefer.

And oh look, the good old '100%' strawman. No, this is about you not being ready to accept the game as-is; since you're the one who wants something different.

[HelmHammerhand2]

Well, I think faithfulness to LoTR lore should definitely be commended and some of you are obviously staunch defenders of lore. However, I think there is such a thing as being too rigid -- there are obviously some things in the game that don't quite hold 100% according to LoTR lore, but are there to add variety and enjoyment to the game experience.


Again, whether you personally like the Giant Goat mounts or not, they are indeed in the game and are enjoyed by (some) players. Even those opposed to the Giant Goats, are apparently not so opposed that they refrain from riding the Giant Goats within Moria. Others enjoy riding the Giant Goats everywhere.


The balancing point between game enjoyment and rigid adherance to lore is going to vary player to player. Since mounted combat has been added to the game for all races and dwarves have a clear association with the Giant Goats (in this game), not allowing the use of Giant Goats in mounted combat is a glaring omission. And hopefully we'll see the Giant War Goats added soon. Once added, everyone who doesn't like the Giant Goats can continue to use the magic ponies.


Some players who are truly devout to LoTR lore probably do not engage in mounted combat at all when playing on a dwarf or hobbit character. Just because it is there doesn't mean you have to participate - same is true of the current Giant Goat mounts and will be true of the future Giant War Goats.


But just becuase you don't like Giant Goats doesn't mean that no one does. And while you'll still be able to use your magic ponies, it seems a little rigid to insist that other players should not have the Giant War Goat option, consistent with the current regular mount options in the game.


Personally, I don't require that this game or the movies be 100% faithful to the LoTR books -- and I have come to understand and accept that they definitely aren't. And I enjoy them for what they are (well, I don't think the movies are all that great... but this game is quite good). If I want the real deal, I read the books again -- always a very enjoyable experience and not reasonably replicable as a MMO to the degree some might require or prefer.

Even if we assume that war goats are a logical "lore extension" i still dont see turbine making it... Why would turbine want to make war goats because a minority wants it ? Turbine would have to make totally new animations for goats in mounted combat since they dont act the same like horses and it wouldnt be worth investing all the time and money for that,i'd rather want them working on Helms Deep battle,fixing bugs and polishing the beautiful landscape of west rohan then introducing war goats for just a minority of people

[BirdofHermes]

Have they bent the lore with this game? Of course they have but they have not technically broken the lore

They have.
See Brand's death, see Draigoch, see Golden Host, see Lieutenant of Dol Guldur's time travelling abilities, etc.
They go directly against Tolkien's writings.
Beyond those, there are some that are obvious lore breaks without actually going against the writings, simply because their existence is so ridiculous that Tolkien would never have thought to write about them. Like giant Tortoises living in a tiny chamber without food or exit, the Iron Garisson, Rune-keepers, both Isengard and Dol Guldur being virtually unguarded, giant goats, and so on.
And then there are just lore bends, which are not written about but seem somewhat plausible due to circumstances. Like a (failed) attempted revival of Angmar, a second Balrog that survived, and the Gaunt Lords.

[Redit]

I never read this whole thing, (or even the lasts few posts) but I want to express my opinions about war-goats.

I think war goats should NOT be allowed for the following reasons.

the obvious reason is lore, goats should have never been a mount to begin with we have covered this.

so what about the game? in the game goats are perfect mounts, they have been trained to bare a rider to and fro.

what difference is there between goat mounts and regular mounts? goat mounts can ride in moria, horse mounts can't ride in moria everything else is simply cosmetic.

so now we have an idea to put WAR goats into the game. what for? what would goat mounts bring to the game?

the reason war goats exist must be the same reason goats exist, so you can ride a war goat in moria. why ride a war goat in moria? you won't ever be able to have mounted combat there, you will just have a speed boost, and most likely die by falling into death pits because of control issues. (I would like to see if I can jump the chasm where the bridge of khazad dum is with my war steed, or at least hit the wall on the other side, or see how fast I fall because the MPS things tells you how fast you fall)

if they allowed war-steeds in moria would you be happy? war steeds are better trained so they might not be as afraid.

war steeds are trained in rohan. they are horse people they know how to train a horse, they are not goat people, goat people don't exist.

so in the game it may seem like a thousand hobbits and a thousand dwarves are riding with war steeds, BUT where in any story of the quests or epic line have they mentioned anything about other people joining your cause to ride a war steed into battle. to them only ONE hobbit (or dwarf etc) is riding around on a trained war steed. because you have proven yourself worthy of riding one of these well trained beasts. looking at the quest dialogue you actually obtain utred's war steed. (utred was the thane of langhold) there was only one utred and one war steed and cillan gave it to you as a gift for all that you did. I imagine she also was able to get nona, horn, and corudan a war steed as well. langhold didn't magically rebuild itself so the next person (ie another player) could fight for langhold and earn a war steed.

the fact is, in the story there really is only one of us. every fellowship quest/raid/instance is not supposed to be a group of people who have essentially ran through the exact same thing. really what level 85 character didn't go through the hollin gates and obtain legendary items in the exact same way. when an NPC is talking to you he's talking to YOU not the 20 other players that are also standing around him. from the NPC's point of view there is only one of you.

so again you might say that there are hundreds of hobbits and dwarves riding war steeds when in the lore no hobbit or dwarf ever rode a "war pony" so if that's not right then surely war goats can exist. well really only one hobbit/dwarf has ridden a war steed trained by the horse-lords and that is believable enough that we are that one special dwarf/hobbit that became lucky enough to ride a war steed.

[Glompf]

now all hell will break loose:

I want a flying war-goat with laserbeams and beerkegs!

I like my goats, but I wouldnt want to see them as war-goats. It's not like they are easily controlled so I guess the riding-skill-lag will be even worse!

[whheydt]

I want a flying war-goat with laserbeams and beerkegs!

Can it make low Earth orbit using the beer kegs?

(cf Poul Anderson, A Bicycle Built for Brew.)

[Klaarg]

All this discussion about "the Lore" and plausibility is useless. It boils down to one thing and one thing only. If the unholy triad "Warner Brothers, Turbine and LOTRO" think they can make any money off of it, they will make War rams(goats), War boars, War wolves, War bears and any other abomination they can twist into a profit machine. Whheydt's adamant dislike of the idea, along with anyone else's is moot. It's all about the "money, money, money".

[ArahadEketta]

All this discussion about "the Lore" and plausibility is useless. It boils down to one thing and one thing only. If the unholy triad "Warner Brothers, Turbine and LOTRO" think they can make any money off of it, they will make War rams(goats), War boars, War wolves, War bears and any other abomination they can twist into a profit machine. Whheydt's adamant dislike of the idea, along with anyone else's is moot. It's all about the "money, money, money".

In this case, lore is going to trump. This game is licenced from Middle-earth Enterprises and bringing in War-goats is the equivalent of throwing the lore into a wood chipper.

For those of you who are SOOOO adamant about bringing in War-goats, please tell me which faction would be issuing us these critters. You are NOT going to be getting them from the Rohirrim. As far as they are concerned, goats only provide food (milk and meat) or hides not transportation of any type. The Dwarves are not going to provide War-goats because they DO NOT have any form of Calvary in their military structure. The Hobbits will not because they don't even have any form of military organization AT ALL. The Elves ONLY use horses when they fight mounted and the same with the Race of Man (Free Peoples).

If you tell us that our characters should be able to train our own War-goats you might want to re-think that. It takes quite some time to train a mount to be effective in combat. As it stands time-wise in game, we have less than 39 days before the destruction of the Ring at Mount Doom.

[Klaarg]

In this case, lore is going to trump. This game is licenced from Middle-earth Enterprises and bringing in War-goats is the equivalent of throwing the lore into a wood chipper.

For those of you who are SOOOO adamant about bringing in War-goats, please tell me which faction would be issuing us these critters. You are NOT going to be getting them from the Rohirrim. As far as they are concerned, goats only provide food (milk and meat) or hides not transportation of any type. The Dwarves are not going to provide War-goats because they DO NOT have any form of Calvary in their military structure. The Hobbits will not because they don't even have any form of military organization AT ALL. The Elves ONLY use horses when they fight mounted and the same with the Race of Man.

If you tell us that our characters should be able to train our own War-goats you might want to re-think that. It takes quite some time to train a mount to be effective in combat. As it stands time-wise in game, we have less than 39 days before the destruction of the Ring at Mount Doom.

Hobbit Presents(real world slot machines), Goat-mounts(already here, lore already broken) and the list goes on. Why you even bother with logic and facts is beyond me. NONE of what you say in your post matters. Middle-earth Enterprises sold out a LONG time ago. Come on, The Hobbit is THREE movies from one book and you know money is the reason for that? Wake up and smell the money! The sad reality is, you are clinging to a Lore that was broken a long time ago. There are so many things outside of the Lore in this game, you could make a freestanding game from just those items.

By the way, no wood chippers in Middle Earth, as it goes against the Lore...

[HelmHammerhand2]

Hobbit Presents(real world slot machines), Goat-mounts(already here, lore already broken) and the list goes on. Why you even bother with logic and facts is beyond me. NONE of what you say in your post matters. Middle-earth Enterprises sold out a LONG time ago. Come on, The Hobbit is THREE movies from one book and you know money is the reason for that? Wake up and smell the money! The sad reality is, you are clinging to a Lore that was broken a long time ago. There are so many things outside of the Lore in this game, you could make a freestanding game from just those items.

By the way, no wood chippers in Middle Earth, as it goes against the Lore...

Actually the reason why The hobbit is split into 3 movies is because PJ is using materials from LOTR appendecies (about battle for dol guldur and possibly the hunt for gollum) so i love the idea that we will get more movies

[ArahadEketta]

Actually, lore-wise, Hobbit Presents is something that pretty much happens with most Hobbits in The Shire. In The Shire, Hobbits give AWAY presents on their birthday and pretty much every day is someone's birthday and they are usually related to you in some way. This is how the Mathom-house came into existance. Oh, and unlike us, it is perfectly ok to take a gift from someone else and give it to another person.

[airsoftg36c]

I love my Goat, but this idea..... Sorry, no. Completely against lore. I won't go on a ranting binge in GLFF, Regional, OOC, Advice and Trade channels or the forums, but I won't like it. At all.

[Klaarg]

Actually, lore-wise, Hobbit Presents is something that pretty much happens with most Hobbits in The Shire. In The Shire, Hobbits give AWAY presents on their birthday and pretty much every day is someone's birthday and they are usually related to you in some way. This is how the Mathom-house came into existance. Oh, and unlike us, it is perfectly ok to take a gift from someone else and give it to another person.

See, you have rationalized a slot machine with your perception of Lore and I'd say you done it for no other reason than you like what you get. It is still a slot machine that uses Mithril coins if you want extra spins and there is no logical justification for it in Lotr Lore. You agree with the idea of free stuff, so you allow yourself to justify something that could not exist in Lotr. It's a gambling machine, plain and simple. I have one sitting in this room with the same little three window setup. Pretty safe to say that here in Ohio, if we still had Internet Cafes in this area, I'd at least get a serious look if law enforcement happened by while I playing the Hobbit Presents part while in such a cafe. Me explaining that it wasn't real money, but in game money we purchased to use in game, would not go over well either. Especially when they saw the stack of 50 Mithril coins you could win.

The fact that you dislike the idea of the goats so strongly, tells me you've probably not read much on Tolkien himself. While many claim to be purists, Tolkien actually rewrote a good amount of "The Hobbit" to make it line up better with "The Lord Of The Rings". You might go to a library and get a few of the books about him to find out that your idea of Lore and his probably wouldn't mesh, as he'd be willing to add or change if he thought there was a benefit or in some cases if his publisher suggested it. You could go to Wikipedia to get the cliff notes type of version, but his history is almost as interesting as his books.

I read The Hobbit and The Lord Of The Rings twice before Tolkien had died. The first time I read The Hobbit, it was a much different story, as it was an old edition I'd gotten at a yard sale. It wasn't in great shape and by the time I was done with it, it was pretty much finished. The second time I read it, I borrowed it from the city library and I was preparing to read a copy of The Lord Of The Rings I had gotten as a gift. I was glad I read the second one, as it matched the storyline much better, due to all the changes he'd made. Obviously, what you call Lore, was changed as well. I read TLOTR again the following spring for a book report. Sadly, Tolkien passed away after that Summer, right around the time I went to a new school.

The fact is, "Lotr Lore" is more about what so called purists cling to, than what Tolkien thought or even wrote. It's been around 43 years since I read my first Tolkien book and I am as sick of people claiming to "know" Tolkien now, as I was in my teens when I was reading him again, because my friends had finally caught up to my reading tastes. Before I graduated from high school, I even had a teacher call me a liar when she overheard me talking to my friends about "The Silmarillion". I had suggested my friends read it after they read TLOTR for our Literature class and I told them I liked it almost as much as his first two books. He was dead by then and she had not heard about it's release. When I protested, I was sent to the office. I explained the situation to the Principal and he called her to the office to apologize to me, as his daughter was an avid Tolkien fan and had recently passed her copy on to her brother to read. Teachers don't like students knowing more about even a small part of a subject they teach, than they do.

If Tolkien had lived longer, who knows what we'd have in this game, but it's safe to say that anyone who does the slightest bit of digging into J.R.R. Tolkien will find a talented, imaginative and extremely flexible individual who was willing to rewrite or change just about anything if he came up with an idea he liked better...

[Radhruin_EU]

The fact that you dislike the idea of the goats so strongly, tells me you've probably not read much on Tolkien himself. While many claim to be purists, Tolkien actually rewrote a good amount of "The Hobbit" to make it line up better with "The Lord Of The Rings". You might go to a library and get a few of the books about him to find out that your idea of Lore and his probably wouldn't mesh, as he'd be willing to add or change if he thought there was a benefit or in some cases if his publisher suggested it. You could go to Wikipedia to get the cliff notes type of version, but his history is almost as interesting as his books.

Not really, as he didn't revise The Hobbit very much, in the end - the only substantial change was to how Bilbo came by the Ring. And what you're trying here is a non sequitur - Tolkien's tendency to rethink and revise doesn't make the goats any more Tolkienesque. Just because he changed things, doesn't mean that every change other people make respects his style. It certainly doesn't mean that the goats do.

[ArahadEketta]

Klaarg, I was originally given the 3 volume box set of the LotR back in 1973. I have read this at least once a year since then. In fact, I read it so much that my original set fell apart and I replaced it with the hardcover single volume Red Book. I also own an American first edition of the Silmarillion which I have read cover to cover at least five times. I also own a copy of Tolkien's letters. While I don't own at present, The Hobbit, I have read it multiple times so I actually know quite a bit about the lore. In fact I can pretty much find specific passages of the LotR fairly quickly and can easily determine if someone is referencing the movie or the Book without needing to look something up.

Based on all that, I will tell you that while I think it was a mistake to bring in goats for mounts was a mistake I can understand why Turbine went with them for MoM. The lore does not support using horses inside Moria and so Turbine came up with a novel means of giving us transportation in the Mines. It is too bad that they allowed them to be used on the surface. Most of the other things that you mention while not being in the lore are somewhat supported by the lore such as the Hobbit Presents. They just present them in a game mechanic method.

War-goats however are completly out. There is absolutely no means where you can support your position based on the lore. Goat transport is a Turbine invention to get around not being able to ride horses inside Moria. While it is fantastcal it is very slightly possible that there might have been goats large enough to be used to be beasts of burden while in the mines. There is however no way that you can justify that any of them had been militarized and actually been trained for mounted combat. The characteristics that could possibly made them good beasts of burden in mountainous terrain and in the Mines of Moria would make them the WORST canditates for mounted combat where calvary is actually useful.

If you are wondering about my qualifications to make the observation I made in the para above, my father was a career Officer in the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers and I served in the U.S. Army for 10 years active (including as a combat vet in Desert Shield/Storm) and 6 years in the Army Reserves as a Drill Sgt. As such I am quite well versed in combat tactics both modern and historical.

[Klaarg]

Not really, as he didn't revise The Hobbit very much, in the end - the only substantial change was to how Bilbo came by the Ring. And what you're trying here is a non sequitur - Tolkien's tendency to rethink and revise doesn't make the goats any more Tolkienesque. Just because he changed things, doesn't mean that every change other people make respects his style. It certainly doesn't mean that the goats do.

Actually there were quite a few changes, not just what the wiki talks about. Also, just because you don't feel the goats would be a good addition, doesn't mean Tolkien or his family agree. Obviously they let goats into the game without crying foul and putting a stop to it.

Klaarg, I was originally given the 3 volume box set of the LotR back in 1973. I have read this at least once a year since then. In fact, I read it so much that my original set fell apart and I replaced it with the hardcover single volume Red Book. I also own an American first edition of the Silmarillion which I have read cover to cover at least five times. I also own a copy of Tolkien's letters. While I don't own at present, The Hobbit, I have read it multiple times so I actually know quite a bit about the lore. In fact I can pretty much find specific passages of the LotR fairly quickly and can easily determine if someone is referencing the movie or the Book without needing to look something up.

Based on all that, I will tell you that while I think it was a mistake to bring in goats for mounts was a mistake I can understand why Turbine went with them for MoM. The lore does not support using horses inside Moria and so Turbine came up with a novel means of giving us transportation in the Mines. It is too bad that they allowed them to be used on the surface. Most of the other things that you mention while not being in the lore are somewhat supported by the lore such as the Hobbit Presents. They just present them in a game mechanic method.

War-goats however are completly out. There is absolutely no means where you can support your position based on the lore. Goat transport is a Turbine invention to get around not being able to ride horses inside Moria. While it is fantastcal it is very slightly possible that there might have been goats large enough to be used to be beasts of burden while in the mines. There is however no way that you can justify that any of them had been militarized and actually been trained for mounted combat. The characteristics that could possibly made them good beasts of burden in mountainous terrain and in the Mines of Moria would make them the WORST canditates for mounted combat where calvary is actually useful.

If you are wondering about my qualifications to make the observation I made in the para above, my father was a career Officer in the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers and I served in the U.S. Army for 10 years active (including as a combat vet in Desert Shield/Storm) and 6 years in the Army Reserves as a Drill Sgt. As such I am quite well versed in combat tactics both modern and historical.

While you seem to be impressed with your "credentials", I am not. They have no relevance here. This is a game that is BASED on Tolkien's works and as such, it doesn't have to faithfully follow this "Lore" you hold so high. If you were truly as interested in the game following his work to the letter, you'd be complaining about a lot more than just goats. The fact that you have focused on such a trivial issue, when so many other issues in this game slap the "Lore" in the face, tells me that there is no sense in me wasting my time any further. Regardless of what you or I say, they are going to do what they want for profit, which is why the game exists.

This is a game on the Internet that is based on J.R.R Tolkien's "The Lord Of The Rings" and the "Lore" is obviously more important to some of you than, than actually playing the game. Connectivity issues are the only reason I was even in here. I'd rather be playing and enjoying the game, than arguing with people who are so hung up on their idea of the "Lore", they see everything they don't like as a threat to their fragile grasp on this imaginary world. This game's world isn't based on, nor does it follow, your imagination and you really need to get that through your head before you get an aneurysm. If continued play of this game is based on them sticking to the "Lore" for you, then I suggest something else, because they have already let you down. It is a great game the way it is and that's how I go into it. Getting hung up on every little issue, will reduce your enjoyment and make being here harder and harder as time goes by.

BTW, did you ever once see me say I cared whether they gave us "War goats" in our recent exchange? No, you didn't, because I stopped caring about it months ago. While I thought it might be fun to have a massive ram to ride into battle, I never pinned my hopes on it. As far as thinking about the logistics of it, that is just plain silly. It's a game where you can die and come back thousands of times. There IS NO LOGISTIC that causes that to make sense. Why you think throwing reasoning of real world logistics and issues into a make believe game is reasonable, says a lot more about you, than it does me. The only things Turbine are worried about are profit, what they can get by with in here to make more profit and how they can keep us around to continue to exploit us for profit. I am OK with that as long as I continue to enjoy myself. Let me help you out a bit here, just say "War goat logistics" out loud to yourself and see how that sounds to you...

[Radhruin_EU]

Actually there were quite a few changes, not just what the wiki talks about.

There were no significant changes other than how Bilbo found the Ring. I don't even know what 'the wiki' says about it because I haven't looked, because I don't need to look - some of us do read books rather than just looking things up on websites, you know.

Also, just because you don't feel the goats would be a good addition, doesn't mean Tolkien or his family agree. Obviously they let goats into the game without crying foul and putting a stop to it.

They wouldn't get any say in the matter. Tolkien sold the rights to LOTR, and nowadays they're managed by a company called Middle-earth Enterprises who, it seems, will sign off on all manner of stuff provided the price is right.

What you seem to have forgotten is that Middle-earth is constructed myth and legend based in an imaginary deep past of our own world. The people in it ride horses or ponies for the same reason that characters in genuinely ancient tales do - because horses were what people had actually got, and such tales had strong imaginative ties to the real world even if they also featured gods and monsters. By contrast, Dwarves riding goats was a D&Dish notion originally. something from modern fantasy based in wholly imaginary worlds. Big difference.