An Interesting Thought (Am I Right?) Turbine has intentionally made the playerbase...

[DarianDelFord]

worse?

As I am sitting here leveling a crafting alt a thought occurred to me. I do not need to group, the content is just that easy now and you level like mad. So as my toon approaches end game content, he will not have had as much experience as my hunter when it comes to grouping. As us old fogies know, we were forced to group for certain book quests but now the inspiration buff takes care of that.

I am grouping with people on my hunter who have no idea how to handle their character in end game content especially in a group. So I am just curious does anyone else think, by making the content so easy at the early levels, by the time peeeps get to the end stuff where you must group, they are so clueless they cause multiple wipes. Intentional or is my analytical mind just over reaching?

[TinDragon]

worse?

As I am sitting here leveling a crafting alt a thought occurred to me. I do not need to group, the content is just that easy now and you level like mad. So as my toon approaches end game content, he will not have had as much experience as my hunter when it comes to grouping. As us old fogies know, we were forced to group for certain book quests but now the inspiration buff takes care of that.

I am grouping with people on my hunter who have no idea how to handle their character in end game content especially in a group. So I am just curious does anyone else think, by making the content so easy at the early levels, by the time peeeps get to the end stuff where you must group, they are so clueless they cause multiple wipes. Intentional or is my analytical mind just over reaching?

I kind of see it as a good thing. People who care about improving themselves will learn how to group before they get to cap. People who don't care (and thus would be the worse players at endgame anyway) won't bother to learn. Makes it easier for me to spot people I don't want to group with.

You're definitely right though, if there was more forced grouping people may have more of an inkling on how to play their class.

[Shintagh]

No. It has been made easy because easy is what they want to feed the players from now on so they don't complain.

[angrolas]

I wouldn't say they intentionally did it, but they certainly did do it. People don't need to learn their class anymore to get to 85. People don't have to group. People don't have to keep up with their gear/virtues. People don't even have to have any sense of strategy when defeating mobs. If you did those things 2-3 years ago, you wouldn't stand a chance.
If Turbine actually introduced grouping to players at mid-level, they could learn their class a little by the time they get to 85, and we could all have a happier end-game.
But they don't. Solo play is encouraged

[TexN]

I hate that LoTRO have turned out to be like this.

I mean, what did people think when they bought a MASSIVE MULTIPLAYER online rpg. The genre is not meant to be solofocused.

[CookieArtisan]

worse?

As I am sitting here leveling a crafting alt a thought occurred to me. I do not need to group, the content is just that easy now and you level like mad. So as my toon approaches end game content, he will not have had as much experience as my hunter when it comes to grouping. As us old fogies know, we were forced to group for certain book quests but now the inspiration buff takes care of that.

I am grouping with people on my hunter who have no idea how to handle their character in end game content especially in a group. So I am just curious does anyone else think, by making the content so easy at the early levels, by the time peeeps get to the end stuff where you must group, they are so clueless they cause multiple wipes. Intentional or is my analytical mind just over reaching?

The ramifications of my solo play include not getting all the shinies.

The ramifications of you desiring group play include ending up with many people who might not have had the learning experiences *you* have had.

I'm glad the game gives the player a choice.

[Armaius]

I hate that LoTRO have turned out to be like this.

I mean, what did people think when they bought a MASSIVE MULTIPLAYER online rpg. The genre is not meant to be solofocused.

All the Massive Multiplayer means is that you happen to be playing on a game world you share with other people. You can interact with them or not, at your own choosing.

Group content =/= MMO.

[RJFerret]

Yes. Intentionally. I suggest that because at the time I was one who pointed out the obvious ramification.

It's a vicious circle, fewer to GBs in their 20s, so they are clueless for Dol Dinen and Garth Agarwen. As a result, Evendim had it's group content (what little there was), removed.

Now folks go into Moria ignorant. Moria meanwhile, has been revamped to remove the one corner of group content it used to have. Now there's nothing to prepare people for Moria instances despite how many want to do those runs. Worse, when they do those runs, they often include an 85 character, so nobody learns anything, the 85 just solos it.

Few run the 75 Isengard instances, and the leveling from 50 to 85 was purposefully accelerated by Turbine as expressed in release notes.

Few 85 instances require proper grouping, heck, folks solo the three-person content, many six-person are done with partial groups, and the raids are readily done with half a group.

Wildermore (in the current Bullroarer incarnation) has no group content at all. No instances at all.

For couples and those who are always grouped, the content is way, way too easy/boring.

[Schmidster]

"Intentially" is the wrong word, in my opinion. Players wanted a faster route to cap, they got it. You can now play this game a number of different ways. It used to be bery limited, and much more difficult. Folks complained that responses to group invites were diminishing. If somebody plays to cap and has a hollow shell of a toon don't blame the game, blame the player.

We now have choice. What you choose to do is your choice. If anything, players intended to make the game worse by wanting a quicker path to level cap. Please don't forget that they have the advantage of reviewing every single thing we do, all of us, our actions and choices and what we pay for in the store. We can only guess and complain and make ourselves feel "all knowing" when really, we are single customers in a sea of revenue streams.

[Nymphonic]

I hate that LoTRO have turned out to be like this.

I mean, what did people think when they bought a MASSIVE MULTIPLAYER online rpg. The genre is not meant to be solofocused.

I have to disagree with this. I've been playing MMO's since 1999 and I've always seen people doing their own thing and not talking to any one else. It was like that with Ultima Online, Star Wars Galaxies, Earth and Beyond, World of Warcraft, EVE Online and LOTRO when it first started. Solo play has always been a major part of MMOs.

I know, I've soloed every one of those games.

[ifreborn1]

There is no "choice" in this game right now. Just like there is no good new group content. Just dumbed down old instances they ruined.


People who like the face roll have a choice of left cheek or right. that is about it!

Then they will tell you to tie your hands behind your back and only play with your toes if you want a challenge.


it is the direction the game took for Rohan but will change when the new management comes in next year.

[Thorwyn99]

Yeah well there's actually only one person i really team with in the game(no offense to anyone) and i'm glad Lotro let's us do stuff just duoing. It's a main reason we play lotro.
I used to be a pretty good team player, i'm just not interested in it anymore.

[Tuco]

Fellowship maneuvers are a case in point. 3 or 4 years ago I used to know a lot of the good ones, but it's all gotten so easy even in groups that unless you're doing serious raid "OK, there's a trick here, you have to use maneuver <x>" type stuff, it's sufficient for the leader to say "everybody go yellow on the boss" and good enough things happen. So I'm no longer seriously raid-ready, having forgotten everything I knew about maneuvers. People coming up solo are even worse off, since they don't know what they don't know -- Donald Rumsfeld's "unknown unknowns".

[Kerin_Eldar]

I hate that LoTRO have turned out to be like this.

I mean, what did people think when they bought a MASSIVE MULTIPLAYER online rpg. The genre is not meant to be solofocused.

The 'g' in MMORPG doesn't stand for 'group', that's why you don't understand.

[mjk47]

Picking up on the title of the thread. "Intentionally" - I doubt it. What you are seeing is simple cause and effect. Sometimes it is easy to get them the wrong way round.

[Kerin_Eldar]

As us old fogies know, we were forced to group for certain book quests but now the inspiration buff takes care of that.

Being around at the beginning, like me, you will know then many players never completed the books because of that forced-grouping, or else waited till 50 as I did to be able to solo those I could.

[Fratonia]

In my opinion it is good to have a choice between group and solo play. Some people just don't like to be pushed around. They like to read quest texts, view the scenery and have a good relaxed time. Some so called group players have done their good share to drive some other players to solo play, me for example. I don't like being told "Let's go! We have to this! We had to do that! No need to read anything! Just follow me!" and so on. That's why I only do group content with my kin and only raids.

For a veteran player leveling an alt it is always easy to say that content has become easier. Of course it is easier for him. He knows it already and usually outfits his alt with appropriate gear. New players usually don't have access to that knowledge and gear unless they get it from someone else.

When I want a challenge I will find some even in solo play. For example do level 76 content with level 60 LIs. That is some experience I can tell you! The name "glass cannon" got a new meaning for my level 72 RK. It was more glass than cannon...

[trancejeremy]

When these threads come up (all the time), I always have to point out that people have it backward. The playerbase made Turbine have to adjust the game, to make it more solo orientated and easier.

Why? Because no one ever wants to group with strangers. Unless you are in the same kin, no one wants anything to do with you. And kinsships don't really recruit much. Thus leaving out most people out in the cold.

Okay, some of it is Turbine's own fault in not having better grouping tools and a proper global chat. But still, it's mostly the playerbase.

[DestroyerXXXX]

I like having the option to not have to group up to play through the story. I play slowly. Very slowly. I use the xp-disabler extensively. My warden that I've been playing for the last 4 weeks is still level 26 and will be until I finish all deeds and quests in the lonelands and north downs. I also only use skirmish camp gear so I have died fighting enemies only 4 levels above me. That's fun to me.
I could have just picked the yeoman vocation and farmed crops in the shire until I hit level 26 in 3 days or less. Then just skip all quests below level and zoom past everything. That's not fun to me though, that's work. I kind of understand if the character is just a craft alt or pack mule. But I just can't see grinding crafting and skirmish fights until level cap with a character you actually want to play with. If you play the game regularly, and do quests/fight enemies at level, you should know how to play well by the time you hit mid 60's.
If you're over level 60 and don't know how to play your character, you're doing something wrong.

[BangoTwinkletoes]

Interesting thread.

I've been around since near the start and certainly have seen a drift away from what I would call "casual grouping" - i.e. people coming together to do a particular quest or locale. There's just no need for it now.

Been leveling two new alts as I'm fed up with the current end-game and from what I have seen over the past few weeks has led me to the conclusion that a fair proportion of the newer player-base are apprehensive about grouping. Perhaps it's the commonly-communicated experiences that people have had with WOW that perhaps lead people to think that it's just easier to solo than do group (which in this game it is).

Unlike back in SOA where people were grouping up right from the off for the prologue quests and the starter areas (Jasper Mudbottom anyone?) are now unlikely to do any grouping unless it's a skirmish or an instance. I've also been giving the instance finder a try and often as not I end up solo or just a duo. So really it's hardly surprising that people just don't bother and solo through the game.

Back then areas such as the original Southern Barrow-Downs, G.Barrows, Garth Agarwen / Agamar & Dol Dinen used to give people the opportunity to group without it being a massive deal if they were not that good with their classes. I never really learned to tank properly with my old guardian until I was in a Dol Dinen group that comprised myself, 2 burgs, a LM, a hunter and a captain. No need for healers as we used CCs and FMs to get through but it was fun and enjoyable. How often does that happen at all now?

I am not an advocate of forcing people to group for the bulk of the game content & progression - but people need more options and avenues to group casually and for it to be rewarding. Once players get the confidence that it's not really that hard to tank / heal / cc etc then they will do it more. But ffs don't hit on the solo'ers who at 85 give BFE a try and find they're having trouble.

Later on today I will be trying to see if there is a kin on Laurelin for my two new alts that has lots of members with lower-level chars to I can enjoy grouping more. We'll see what happens.

[Coolhandlukeboy]

When these threads come up (all the time), I always have to point out that people have it backward. The playerbase made Turbine have to adjust the game, to make it more solo orientated and easier.

Agreed, and honestly, before I got into a more raiding type of kin, I thought easier would be better.

But now, I am left with a peculiar sense of boredom at 85. What did you do when you hit 85? Me, I went back and started leveling my captain, which I considered a difficult class, just for a challenge and the fun of it.

Don't get me wrong, it's not all bad in RoR. I loved the questlines and the very unpolished mounted combat (still very gimmicky and laggy), but the endgame focus is not there. And once again, my burglar isn't needed. No need for FMs? No need for debuffs? Even if you do hit an FM, no one seems to know how to complete it.

LOTRO, I am not much for complaining, but please make a raid that utilizes classes, not just damage/healing management. Anyone can pew pew... I know... I have a hunter, or shing shing. Just give us one really old-school raid, please! Make me feel like a burglar again, and not some quasi-LM, quasi-champ-without-heavy-survivability.

[Whart]

When these threads come up (all the time), I always have to point out that people have it backward. The playerbase made Turbine have to adjust the game, to make it more solo orientated and easier.

Why? Because no one ever wants to group with strangers. Unless you are in the same kin, no one wants anything to do with you. And kinsships don't really recruit much. Thus leaving out most people out in the cold.

Okay, some of it is Turbine's own fault in not having better grouping tools and a proper global chat. But still, it's mostly the playerbase.

Yes you do always point that out. Not sure why, because it simply isn't true. On the servers I've played on, there are ads spammed in glff multiple times an hour by recruiting kins, and if you check server forums, there are always kins looking for people. I've never on any server had the slightest bit of difficulty getting into a kin--my only challenges have been finding ones that do the content I like at the times that I play and have the kind of close-knit-family vibe that I feel comfortable with, and I've always been able to find those after a small bit of research. And I have no issues at all grouping with strangers. Kin runs are easier because we know each other's styles and strengths/weaknesses. But both types of groups have their pros and cons, and to say that there's nobody doing pugs is absurd--there are pug ads running constantly in glff at all hours of the day and night. I might suggest that you look at your own approach, because relationships have two sides and require effort on the part of both participants. Since your posts are frequently about how awful all other players are, it seems to be that the negative attitude may be getting in the way.

[bohbashum]

I'm glad the game gives the player a choice.

thats the problem. there isn't any choice

it's either:
- solo
- grind fest 3/6mans
- good choice of raids

there is no middle ground. there is no "choice" in 3/6man instances, it's stupidly easy on all teirs. for the daily play for many of us, group is what we do at end-game. the only challanging group content is some short boss fight raids that arn't that rewarding.

[KKMacLeod]

Much of the old LotRO grouping to complete major quest lines and epic story was a bad idea. It could cause players to be stuck without being able to advance the story. But getting all the way to 85 without really learning to group doesn't help you either.

The player base wanted that forced group content to go away and it has. But what we also wanted was an instance finder that worked properly. That worked as well as that MMO that shall not be named. Rip on WoW all you want but you can use the dungeon finder from level 15 and on. You learn your class more in a group setting and you also level up crazy fast.

I'm currently working on an RK that's all healing spec even while soloing. I queue for any and all instances as heals or dps and sit in it for 2 hours with nothing. If the instance finder were revamped to include incentives and possibly made cross server you'd see more interest in early group play.

[husaragi]

I hate that LoTRO have turned out to be like this.

I mean, what did people think when they bought a MASSIVE MULTIPLAYER online rpg. The genre is not meant to be solofocused.

while i can see your point, there are some people who play for the opposite reason... I work with people all day and the last thing I want to do when i get home is interact with more humans. I play LOTRO or any other online game to get away from people.
there is absolutely no reason that MMO has to mean 'you must group with other players'. the only thing MMO means is massive numbers of players online at the same time.

i have to agree that the genre may not necessarily be meant for solo focus, but there is also no reason TB could not have implemented most, if not all of the solo style content, without messing up the group play also. imo they had a great idea and a massive fail at implementing it.

Part of that goes to how easy the game has been made, overall. Most of the things you would expect from a tier based loot/raid system are missing. i.e. you need to run the instances to get the raid gear to do T1, then you need to run T1 raids to get the gear upgrades *necessary* to do T2. as it stands right now, you can roll into T2 raids with a group of competent players in crafted gear, or raid gear from the previous expansion, and win easily. that just should not happen, period.

the game overall is just way too easy. I had to find creative ways to make it hard to solo....on a burg. thats just sad. To the OPs question/point, i do think that the playerbase is...maybe not 'worse', not sure thats the right word, but less capable or knowledgeable about their classes. most solo players never have to really figure out how to use half the skills their class has available.