Twenty Questions with the LOTRO Dev Team

[Grimdi]

The loot system question was answered in a twitter chat. There are no plans to go back to the old system.

Why do you assume that "change to loot system" means "go back to the old system"? There are many ideas in these forums to improve the system in other ways (e.g. http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.p...te-Looting-2.0). Many people just dislike the RNG being their overlord, esp. if it appears to play unfair.

[rodin12]

I have 3 questions the first .Pueden confirm the exit of the new expansion and deny the rumors of closing not that to do if to start raising another player in etten or is going to close lotro and I am close to being Rank 15. The second question they are going to put the Rank 16 or something for the Rank 15 .Tercera question is possible that at this point the unjust discrimination of classes is eliminated by race already it is time to be a normal game where there chooses that class and that race to be and I want my lm hobbit

[Elrantiri]

Can't really blame em. Over 3 trillion mobs have been slain in Diablo 3. A very large percentage of the population loves mindless faceroll lottery games. Turbine is just feeding the hunger.

Well, you might need to define what a large percentage is.

Diablo 3 sold over 12 million copies in 2012:
http://www.diablofans.com/topic/8555...octor-fan-art/

And atm Diablo 3 has over 3 million unique players every month
http://diablo.incgamers.com/blog/com...play-every-day

Of course those are not precise numbers, but I see this as sign that many of the initial players have stopped playing the game, possibly because of the mindless farming?

[DarkCntry]

Of course those are not precise numbers, but I see this as sign that many of the initial players have stopped playing the game, possibly because of the mindless farming?

Well, Diablo's franchise is entirely made on the Loot, it was the RMAH that caused almost every one of those players to give up, as they got tired of all but being forced to use it to obtain anything decent.

[Thorwyn99]

Well, you might need to define what a large percentage is.

Diablo 3 sold over 12 million copies in 2012:
http://www.diablofans.com/topic/8555...octor-fan-art/

And atm Diablo 3 has over 3 million unique players every month
http://diablo.incgamers.com/blog/com...play-every-day

Of course those are not precise numbers, but I see this as sign that many of the initial players have stopped playing the game, possibly because of the mindless farming?

Well most of the initial players where Diablo 2 players the loot farming was the main game there too.
I played D3 for a month the main difference was that while in D2 the farming was fun if a bit tedious and rewarding, in D3 it was just tedious and unrewarding.
Add to that the RMAH and it being the best chance to get good gear and you pretty much had the recipe for a big letdown.

I'd say Lotro is more into the tedious and unrewarding farm place, which should be changed, so i think loot system doesn't need to change per se but it needs to be tweaked, alot.
For a starter bring the drop rates in the dungeons in line with their length and difficulty.

[dreamcreatorx]

Any chance of getting gold drop items from raids turned into unique?

Our Minny just received her 3rd gold hat last night, while others continue to suffer.

Last night I got my 2nd gold cloak while our other champion has none.

./Sad Panda Face

[welden]

I agree with many who have recently posted that the current loot system needs improvement. More grind = more reward... or at least should...

Welden

[Elrantiri]

I played D3 for a month the main difference was that while in D2 the farming was fun if a bit tedious and rewarding, in D3 it was just tedious and unrewarding.

Exactly, and that's IMO where LotrO has gone as well.

[Alrarondir]

The loot system question was answered in a twitter chat. There are no plans to go back to the old system.

Why would you? After all, it's only what the longest standing and most avid of your customer base wants.

I have a suggestion for a new slogan for Turbine:

"Greed, envy, sloth, pride and gluttony: these are not vices anymore. No, these are marketing tools."

[Al.]

I think Turbine has its feedback, hopefully they revamp both items and LI system down the road.

People do make mistakes but they can amend them too.

[bohbashum]

The loot system question was answered in a twitter chat. There are no plans to go back to the old system.

you've got to bring back locks D:

so many instances yet we get the most reward just spamming one even just a daily lock it stops so much "grind" culture and promotes playing ALL the instances, not just the few which are easier.

[cdq1958]

you've got to bring back locks D:

so many instances yet we get the most reward just spamming one even just a daily lock it stops so much "grind" culture and promotes playing ALL the instances, not just the few which are easier.

From memory, it has been said that raid locks don't play well with the scaling tech, so I wonder if loot locks could be done or timer locks like the 1 hour instance entry limit but with a check for repetitive runs added.

[Lenilie]

From memory, it has been said that raid locks don't play well with the scaling tech, so I wonder if loot locks could be done or timer locks like the 1 hour instance entry limit but with a check for repetitive runs added.

Loot locks work just fine, as seen in Skirmish Raids and the Helegrod wings. These could easily be implemented, and would work fine with the old loot system.

However, turbine's repeatedly stated that they're happy with how loot is (even though almost any player I've interacted with recently has complaints about it; some have only one or two smaller issues, some hate the whole system). Using the current loot system and just adding loot locks to it would just infuriate people more and completely ruin people's ability to get the gear they want. One/two chances per week with a small chance of getting the item you want would be horrific.

I really wish Turbine would give us the option to use the old system, it works so much better for regular raid groups and kin runs particularly for the rare and/or BoE items (gold class drops, special raid items like the Unwelcome Mat from BG, Saruman Clasps, etc.). I guess Turbine must not plan on having housing item drops in any future instances because with this loot system it completely makes no sense, as they're all BoE and could go to someone who has absolutely no desire to make use of it, but can't give it to someone who would. I've already seen the Unwelcome mat go to 2 people like this since they scaled BG.

As well, locks really do prevent overrunning of instances which can, and does, cause burnout among players who are after particular items.

[Elrantiri]

Why is Flight t2cm the hardest meanwhile the easiest on tier 1?

It's too early to say Flight t2cm is the hardest as long as noone has completed it yet. Of course there's a hint that Flight t2cm is the hardest, but it may also just be because there's some mechanic we haven't seen/understood yet.
Also, I think the number of kinships actually trying Flight t2cm is a lot lower than the number of kinships who tried smaug and bfe t2cm. I know at least a couple of kinships that has stopped raiding the last few months, my own included.

[cdq1958]

Loot locks work just fine, as seen in Skirmish Raids and the Helegrod wings. These could easily be implemented, and would work fine with the old loot system.

However, turbine's repeatedly stated that they're happy with how loot is (even though almost any player I've interacted with recently has complaints about it; some have only one or two smaller issues, some hate the whole system). Using the current loot system and just adding loot locks to it would just infuriate people more and completely ruin people's ability to get the gear they want. One/two chances per week with a small chance of getting the item you want would be horrific.

I really wish Turbine would give us the option to use the old system, it works so much better for regular raid groups and kin runs particularly for the rare and/or BoE items (gold class drops, special raid items like the Unwelcome Mat from BG, Saruman Clasps, etc.). I guess Turbine must not plan on having housing item drops in any future instances because with this loot system it completely makes no sense, as they're all BoE and could go to someone who has absolutely no desire to make use of it, but can't give it to someone who would. I've already seen the Unwelcome mat go to 2 people like this since they scaled BG.

As well, locks really do prevent overrunning of instances which can, and does, cause burnout among players who are after particular items.

Depending on how a loot lock is done, I would think that it could be used with the current system. Especially so in instances, where the lock could be a daily for the specific instance.

I don't have any issue with the current openly pRNG based system, so long as other methods (such as a barter option or crafting) are available. For me, the pRNG system is ultimately fair. It keeps no memory, gives everyone an equal shot at it, and doesn't care who gets what. I know that others feel differently, but to me the gold items are optional. You can complete everything available in game content-wise with cyans.

Specific instance based loot locks would definitely kill single instance farming. If you want to farm, you'd have to do different instances to have another shot at it. Even with a guaranteed chest drop, that does not mean that you'd get your item. You are still facing the pRNG via the /roll.

For casual players, raid locks basically lock you out of getting your items, too. You've changed the gate to time, using the RL RNG.

[Minquinn]

Depending on how a loot lock is done, I would think that it could be used with the current system. Especially so in instances, where the lock could be a daily for the specific instance.

I don't have any issue with the current openly pRNG based system, so long as other methods (such as a barter option or crafting) are available. For me, the pRNG system is ultimately fair. It keeps no memory, gives everyone an equal shot at it, and doesn't care who gets what. I know that others feel differently, but to me the gold items are optional. You can complete everything available in game content-wise with cyans.

Specific instance based loot locks would definitely kill single instance farming. If you want to farm, you'd have to do different instances to have another shot at it. Even with a guaranteed chest drop, that does not mean that you'd get your item. You are still facing the pRNG via the /roll.

For casual players, raid locks basically lock you out of getting your items, too. You've changed the gate to time, using the RL RNG.

With a guaranteed loot drop you will get your items. I remember the loot locks system. I never had a piece of gear I was looking for where I had to run the instance 1000's of times to get it. Face it this system has driven away alot of players. Myself, I will not even do an instance solely due to the loot system. What's the point of finishing a T2C smaug or running SG when the final result 99 times out of a 100 is I will walk away with bounties and relics. That sir is frustrating. It in no way encourages casual players to play the game either. If a casual player is someone that plays 2 hours a night or under how are they going to be able to get the items they need unless they spam run Sambrog 20 times a night?

[cdq1958]

With a guaranteed loot drop you will get your items. I remember the loot locks system. I never had a piece of gear I was looking for where I had to run the instance 1000's of times to get it. Face it this system has driven away alot of players. Myself, I will not even do an instance solely due to the loot system. What's the point of finishing a T2C smaug or running SG when the final result 99 times out of a 100 is I will walk away with bounties and relics. That sir is frustrating. It in no way encourages casual players to play the game either. If a casual player is someone that plays 2 hours a night or under how are they going to be able to get the items they need unless they spam run Sambrog 20 times a night?

The point was, Minquinn, that 'causals' didn't run raids much anyway under the old system. Need vs. Want. You don't need anything better than cyans. Everyone wants golds. Golds are supposed to be rare. Something has to give.

Oh yeah, I doubt very seriously that 'causals' are going to be running Sammy 20 times per night. Maybe 20 per month. I don't care what drops from instances/raids or even quests. If I can use it, I will. Otherwise, I keep on truckin' and crafting. I do know that when my time is limited, worrying about the pRNG or raids doesn't cross my mind. Others, naturally, have different feelings.

Sure, have multiple paths to the goal. The instances and raids that I have run still resulted in someone not getting the big drop. And I remember 'losing' the /roll way too many times /shrug.

I guess the bottom line is one way or another someone will be frustrated. I think you want your frustration lessened. Sure, but not at the expense of increasing someone else's (where I agree with you that the grouping subset is getting shafted), especially if that someone else's subset is larger than yours.

[FinrodMacBeorn]

The point was, Minquinn, that 'causals' didn't run raids much anyway under the old system. Need vs. Want. You don't need anything better than cyans. Everyone wants golds. Golds are supposed to be rare. Something has to give.

If only the cyans would drop on a more reliable basis. Some clusters really have dismal drop chances. If you want to have a decent cyan agi earring (for damage), you either have to do skraids (which on our server currently almost nobody runs nowadays as we did that ad nauseam immediately after reaching level cap), or you have to (!) do Fornost. We run it regularly (CM and with 4-5 agi classes stacked), and I would guess that in 40% of runs everybody ends up with bounties and relics only, in another 40% runs we get additionally some purple stuff which nobody needs any longer, in more than 15% one or two people get a cyan armour piece which is not better than Hytbold (without the set bonus of the latter). In less than 5% of runs, we got something worthwhile (twice the cyan agi earring, once the cyan will earring). Gold drops? Forget about it.

No wonder that on our servers people are offering 800 gold and more for one of those cyan agi earrings - they are as rare as the horselords bracelet recipes.

The drop rate in Fornost is much worse than in Sambrog. And that in spite that there you are doing a not completely trivial CM (you have to know at least, what you are doing) and that it takes much, much longer. I really wonder what is the reason for that difference in loot chances?

The ITA cluster seems to be similar frustrating regarding the time+effort/reward ratio, but we did not do that yet very frequently.

I could live with the loot system for gold items, but please do not gate essential cyan equip behind ridiculous drop chances (in relation to time played) again without any alternatives. The situation with agi earrings was similar in the first months of RoI, but then, we got Great River jewelry and a crafting recipe for a decent agi damage earring. With Wildermore - nothing.

[cdq1958]

If only the cyans would drop on a more reliable basis. Some clusters really have dismal drop chances. If you want to have a decent cyan agi earring (for damage), you either have to do skraids (which on our server currently almost nobody runs nowadays as we did that ad nauseam immediately after reaching level cap), or you have to (!) do Fornost. We run it regularly (CM and with 4-5 agi classes stacked), and I would guess that in 40% of runs everybody ends up with bounties and relics only, in another 40% runs we get additionally some purple stuff which nobody needs any longer, in more than 15% one or two people get a cyan armour piece which is not better than Hytbold (without the set bonus of the latter). In less than 5% of runs, we got something worthwhile (twice the cyan agi earring, once the cyan will earring). Gold drops? Forget about it.

No wonder that on our servers people are offering 800 gold and more for one of those cyan agi earrings - they are as rare as the horselords bracelet recipes.

The drop rate in Fornost is much worse than in Sambrog. And that in spite that there you are doing a not completely trivial CM (you have to know at least, what you are doing) and that it takes much, much longer. I really wonder what is the reason for that difference in loot chances?

The ITA cluster seems to be similar frustrating regarding the time+effort/reward ratio, but we did not do that yet very frequently.

I could live with the loot system for gold items, but please do not gate essential cyan equip behind ridiculous drop chances (in relation to time played) again without any alternatives. The situation with agi earrings was similar in the first months of RoI, but then, we got Great River jewelry and a crafting recipe for a decent agi damage earring. With Wildermore - nothing.

Okay. Hmm, essential cyans locked behind the loot system ... well, they were not only locked behind the pRNG /roll, they were also locked behind time for barter and the /roll. We still have, but a bit less so for cyans, the pRNG /roll for the critical success for the crafted items.

That said, I agree that there should be multiple paths, and I agree that cyans in particular need a guaranteed success path.

[Elrantiri]

Okay. Hmm, essential cyans locked behind the loot system ... well, they were not only locked behind the pRNG /roll, they were also locked behind time for barter and the /roll. We still have, but a bit less so for cyans, the pRNG /roll for the critical success for the crafted items.

That said, I agree that there should be multiple paths, and I agree that cyans in particular need a guaranteed success path.

The problem with the cyans is largely decreased by the ability to buy and sell them on Auction House. This is not a guaranteed path of course, but it has helped me quite a lot never the less.

[Hiritier]

I agreed that should be multiple paths to get gear too. Look what they did with the treasure even. Now that's a good reward system. The RNG chance to find a huge dig site is low. The chance to get what you really want (the goat, the horse, rich emote...) in that huge dig site is even lower (most of the time i get token or cosmetic that i already had). But even so, after every site i dug, there is always a small advance on the way to reach my goal (even it's just a single token), and finally, after alot of GRINDING - that i can see the advance - i'll get what i want. Not like the RNG system now, all the effort i took before is wiped out when i start a new instance. Wonder why they dont use that for instances/raids' loot.

[cdq1958]

I agreed that should be multiple paths to get gear too. Look what they did with the treasure even. Now that's a good reward system. The RNG chance to find a huge dig site is low. The chance to get what you really want (the goat, the horse, rich emote...) in that huge dig site is even lower (most of the time i get token or cosmetic that i already had). But even so, after every site i dug, there is always a small advance on the way to reach my goal (even it's just a single token), and finally, after alot of GRINDING - that i can see the advance - i'll get what i want. Not like the RNG system now, all the effort i took before is wiped out when i start a new instance. Wonder why they dont use that for instances/raids' loot.

In a way, that exists now. If you are willing to collect Marks, Medallions and Seals (only obtainable via instances/raids) and wait a bit, you can buy Symbols from Skirmish camp vendors, yet you can't buy 'legendary' class gear there (at least I don't remember 'golds' being there). You can buy older instance/raid 'purples' and 'cyans' (that reminds me, I need to see if there are Item level 80 and higher stuff on the camp vendors). Once upon a time, there were special barter currencies. Unfortunately, that became unwieldy because of the sheer number of them. What I do know is that Turbine hasn't quite gotten things where they need to be.

[Hiritier]

In a way, that exists now. If you are willing to collect Marks, Medallions and Seals (only obtainable via instances/raids) and wait a bit, you can buy Symbols from Skirmish camp vendors, yet you can't buy 'legendary' class gear there (at least I don't remember 'golds' being there). You can buy older instance/raid 'purples' and 'cyans' (that reminds me, I need to see if there are Item level 80 and higher stuff on the camp vendors). Once upon a time, there were special barter currencies. Unfortunately, that became unwieldy because of the sheer number of them. What I do know is that Turbine hasn't quite gotten things where they need to be.

But those are old stuff. It should be available for endgame stuff too, like the earring in fornost, or the gold items.

PS: i know there is something similar, like collecting token for the bartered rings, but those are solo contents. I'd like to see it in group contents, to encourage people running multiple instances/raids.

[cdq1958]

But those are old stuff. It should be available for endgame stuff too, like the earring in fornost, or the gold items.

PS: i know there is something similar, like collecting token for the bartered rings, but those are solo contents. I'd like to see it in group contents, to encourage people running multiple instances/raids.

The Battered Ring of Rohan? The upgrade item for that is only available, for now, by running the Erebor instances, as far as I can remember, so that one isn't just solo content.

Yeah I like that idea, too. Put that one into the Suggestion forums. Allow the use of the sunbrands, etc to be used to barter for cyan/gold instance gear.

[Hiritier]

The Battered Ring of Rohan? The upgrade item for that is only available, for now, by running the Erebor instances, as far as I can remember, so that one isn't just solo content.

Yeah I like that idea, too. Put that one into the Suggestion forums. Allow the use of the sunbrands, etc to be used to barter for cyan/gold instance gear.

Hmm i dont remember you need to run Erebor to unlock it. I remember those rings need rep and tokens. You need the stuff like sunbrand... but you can buy it. And there are too many nice suggestion in that forums sank into darkness so, too lazy to make a new one (especially when you get "auto kick" out of the forums if you typing too long).