The Gondor thread

[Daeross]

Ranger at Ruins in Gondor by Unknown artist

Here, a fix:
Ranger at Ruins in Gondor by Wouter Florusse



Nice that you're still keeping this thread afloat!

[Daeross]

Ok Ill give my reasoning why Norse Paganism is in LOTR and whole sub-creation.[I]

Promised to bring this up at a better time...
Warning, however: I'm the devil's advocate.

Far as I'm concerned, things sharing similarities doesn't mean they're alike in everything; drawing inspiration from a piece doesn't mean what you end up with is the same as the 'original', or even all that much akin to it.
And as things are, imo, Tolkien was inspired by myths, stories told before: who hasn't been?
But he drew inspiration from many myths, many things. Consciously or otherwise.
As it is, he came up with something new that resonates within many people, if only because there's still something indelibly familiar about it all. He was, after all, 'just' a human. And humans do share things, even if we may try to fight against them.

(Rings)

The One Ring of the Lord of the Rings isn't the same as the Ring of Nibelungenlied: they're but two incarnations of the 'magical', neverending circle.

The Valar are the equivalent of Norse Gods-

They could also be argued to be equivalent of Olympic pantheon, or Egyptian deities, or... you get the idea.

-Manwe the Valar sitting in his tower can see everything just Like Odin or Woden does in the Norse Myth he also commands Birds Ravens in case of Odin and Eagles in case of Manwe-

Manwe shares less with the One-Eyed than his 'brother', Melkor, does.

Siegfrid defeating a dragon, like Turin in the Silmarillion.

Like Gilgamesh, St. George, Hercules, Bahram Gur...

The Land were the Valar are is similar to the Valhalla or were the Halls of the Norse God inhabit.

How is a huge, majestic Mead Hall to Rule All Mead Halls more similar to Valinor than Field of Reeds, Tír na nÓg, Atlantis...?
Blessed "Western Lands" are something a lot of cultures reference. Not to even mention Faerië.

Sauron deception and cunning are similar to Loki's character and both are some sort of divine entities.

Save that Loki has redeeming features, whereas Sauron doesn't.

-Gandalf is similar to Woden when he visited earth as an Old Man, in LOTR Manwe sends Gandalf or Olorin as an Old man.

All Istari came to Middle-earth as old men, subject to the frailties of the flesh. Gandalf, however, appeared to be the oldest of them, if memory serves right.
Tolkien did, in a letter, refer to Gandalf as an "Odinic wanderer", though.

Dragons are both in Norse and Middle Earth.

Dragons aren't bound to Nordic myths alone. They're all over the world.

The sun and the moon (named) in Tolkien lore are heros, in Norse myth Sól, the Sun, and Máni, the Moon, are chased by the wolves-

Tell me... Who chased Arien and Tilion?
How do Sôl and Máni resemble Arien and Tilion more than Helios and Selene? Arinna and Kaskuh? Ra and Iah?

Dwarves appear similiar in both Norse and Tolkien writtings, dwarves are great craftmen, Mîm in particular is name for a dwarf in both stories.

Look again: Tolkien drew a lot if not all of the names for the Dwarves from Poetic Edda. He even gives a reason for this: the Dwarves took names in the languages of the Northmen they most commonly dealt with.

Tl;dr: A lot of the things you mention aren't unique to Norse mythology. Saying that Middle-earth is a... pastiche? of Nordic myths because Tolkien was a fan of Beowulf is like saying that elves are hippies because we know of an instance where they were merrily singing and dancing amidst flowers.

To keep this relevant to the subject of the thread, though...
I'd like to remind you that the crown of Gondor was likened by Tolkien to the crowns of Egyptian pharaohs, in a letter of his.
Could we draw conclusions about the rest of the culture from that point?

[Al.]

Tl;dr: A lot of the things you mention aren't unique to Norse mythology. Saying that Middle-earth is a... pastiche? of Nordic myths because Tolkien was a fan of Beowulf is like saying that elves are hippies because we know of an instance where they were merrily singing and dancing amidst flowers.

To keep this relevant to the subject of the thread, though...
I'd like to remind you that the crown of Gondor was likened by Tolkien to the crowns of Egyptian pharaohs, in a letter of his.
Could we draw conclusions about the rest of the culture from that point?

Thanks for the really cool lesson, Yep agree multiple-culture oriented Myth of sub-creation, I think that is what it makes so cool.

I think the Gondorian Crown similar to the Crown of the Pharao is a great point,also the scepter makes a direct link to Egypt, there is the Atlantis myth too, Roman Military tactics used in Gondor and the elven culture mix, I would say Gondor is the Persian Empire/Anglo Saxon due to the mix, Arnor would be the Closest place to the Atlanteans considering they are People without a Kingdom.

Its very interesting how Gondor will end up to be, its a challenge I definetly think Aragorn is both a King (Western View) and a Pharao (Egyptian) like said in the letter Daeross, Its incredible Tolkien how tolkien did it

[Al.]

some designs can be used for Gondor Ships like these:

[Al.]

Boromir Last Stand by Matt steward

[Grumpisaw]

Why can we post images?

[Radhruin_EU]

I'd like to remind you that the crown of Gondor was likened by Tolkien to the crowns of Egyptian pharaohs, in a letter of his.
Could we draw conclusions about the rest of the culture from that point?

I wouldn't read too much into that. There are three obvious similarities with ancient Egypt:

- the crown, as noted;

- the building of massive monuments in stone;

- the obsession with death and achieving eternal life, and the careful preservation of the bodies of the dead.

However, the Pharaohs were god-kings whereas the Numenorean kings were priest-kings, so that's a rather different role. Egyptian religion had a huge, highly organised and politically powerful priesthood, Numenorean religion of course did not since Tolkien suppressed that whole aspect. Egyptian culture was slave-owning (in common with the rest of the ancient world), not something that any of Tolkien's good guys were into (and the Numenoreans only became once they were corrupted by Sauron). I think on the whole it's a borrowed likeness to some degree, with no deep similarity. On the whole I find Gondor more reminiscent of the Byzantine Empire, if anything.

[Al.]

Radhruin you are contradicting youself in your post, on on side you are saying Gondor is like Pharaos in other side you say they are not like Egyptains...

Previous poster, anyone can post images related to gondor, anglo saxon, egyptian, bizantine, westernesse, etc. But keep in mind that movies don't apply as I try to keep this into lore-centric.

[Daeross]

- the obsession with death and achieving eternal life, and the careful preservation of the bodies of the dead.

While I won't argue about the first points you make, these I do take issue with: Obsession with death? Achieving eternal life?
Especially the latter... Doesn't sound Gondorian. Númenoreans, yes, grew jealous of the Elves' immortality, but... They longed to gain eternal life for real, not as an afterlife, which was Egyptians' idea. Gondorians didn't voice such desire, at least in as far as I remember Tolkien's writings.
I'll sign the idea that Gondorians valued their dead, seemingly even higher than anyone alive, at least occasionally.
But obsession with death? Can't see it, sorry. Denethor was just one man, hardly eligible to represent all of the Men living within Gondor's bounds.

As for careful preservation of the bodies of the dead... the only funeral custom we're offered in the Lord of the Rings, far as Gondorians are concerned, is presented via Rath Dínen, the Silent Street. There were housed the bodies of the Kings and the Stewards, no one else before Pippin and Merry passed away.
To consider that to be an example of the funeral customs of all of Gondor is like saying that Rohirrim built barrows for all their dead, because that's the only method of Rohirric burial that Tolkien bothered to actually mention.

-Egyptian culture was slave-owning (in common with the rest of the ancient world), not something that any of Tolkien's good guys were into (and the Numenoreans only became once they were corrupted by Sauron).-

Their decline began well before Sauron got to them. He merely hammered in the final nails.
As for slave-owning... Yes, Tolkien's world as described doesn't really paint the 'good guys' as ones who'd use slaves to do their work.
However... who do you think was the brute workforce, building the Númenórean strongholds after they began to establish themselves in Middle-earth?

I always likened the arrival of Númenórean ships to Columbus, and Cortés; explorers, yes, but ones in mighty ships, more advanced than the Men living in Middle-earth. They must've appeared to be quite a sight, arriving on the shores. Sometimes, one doesn't need to wield weapons to have others submit. Sometimes, one doesn't even need to threaten, for the mere presence of one's power is enough to assure cooperation and attempts to please.

[Grumpisaw]

Look at the posting permissions when you are logged out, I can't post links or pictures. But maybe it's just me.

[Radhruin_EU]

While I won't argue about the first points you make, these I do take issue with: Obsession with death? Achieving eternal life?
Especially the latter... Doesn't sound Gondorian. Númenoreans, yes, grew jealous of the Elves' immortality, but... They longed to gain eternal life for real, not as an afterlife, which was Egyptians' idea. Gondorians didn't voice such desire, at least in as far as I remember Tolkien's writings.

It's right there in LOTR, when Faramir is describing the slow decay of Gondor to Frodo.

'Death was ever present, because the Numenoreans still, as they had in the old kingdom, and so lost it, hungered after endless life unchanging. Kings made tombs more splendid than houses of the living, and counted old names in the rolls of their descent dearer than the names of sons. Childless lords sat in aged halls musing on heraldry; in secret chambers withered men compounded strong elixirs, or in high cold towers asked questions of the stars. And the last king of the line of Anarion had no heir.'

- The Two Towers, 'The Window on the West'

The old obsessions hadn't gone away, at least among the nobility. (Although the Stewards proved wiser, as Faramir goes on to say).

[Radhruin_EU]

Radhruin you are contradicting youself in your post, on on side you are saying Gondor is like Pharaos in other side you say they are not like Egyptains...

There's no contradiction there. There are similarities to Egypt up to a point, but it would be unwise to read too much into it and in particular, the kings of Gondor were not like the Pharaohs - they played a different religious role.

[Al.]

Departure from Gondor By Anke Eissmann

Isildur Lotro

[Langie]

Previous poster, anyone can post images related to gondor, anglo saxon, egyptian, bizantine, westernesse, etc. But keep in mind that movies don't apply as I try to keep this into lore-centric.

I don't understand that comment. You say your trying to keep the thread lore-centric, yet you suggest to the poster that he should put images of Rohan (Anglo-saxon) in the Gondor thread?

You yourself have already done your level best to fill this thread with images that have nothing whatsoever to do with Gondor. Please make up your mind.

[Al.]

I don't understand that comment. You say your trying to keep the thread lore-centric, yet you suggest to the poster that he should put images of Rohan (Anglo-saxon) in the Gondor thread?

You yourself have already done your level best to fill this thread with images that have nothing whatsoever to do with Gondor. Please make up your mind.

Anglo saxon is Rohan, yep my mistake correcting anyway Rohan and Gondor a linked by friendship so posting some rohirrim isn't bad for Gondor thread, please by more open minded.

[Wolfhelm]

There's no contradiction there. There are similarities to Egypt up to a point, but it would be unwise to read too much into it and in particular, the kings of Gondor were not like the Pharaohs - they played a different religious role.

There was nothing self-contradicting in Rad's reply. Just because Tolkien mentions several similarities between Gondor and ancient Egypt doesn't mean it's totally the same thing. Tolkien was very clear on several occasions that his main inspiration for Gondor was the Byzantium empire.

I would accuse you of oversimplification but then I realise that you do that by necessity, it's the only way you yourself can understand it

[Al.]

There was nothing self-contradicting in Rad's reply. Just because Tolkien mentions several similarities between Gondor and ancient Egypt doesn't mean it's totally the same thing. Tolkien was very clear on several occasions that his main inspiration for Gondor was the Byzantium empire.

I would accuse you of oversimplification but then I realise that you do that by necessity, it's the only way you yourself can understand it

Did I say they were the samething? I said: they are a mixed culture

Also tolkien never said they were the Bizantine empire either....

[Daeross]

It's right there in LOTR, when Faramir is describing the slow decay of Gondor to Frodo.-

Forgot about Faramir wielding the Exposition Stick... Been too long a while since I've been to Ithilien...

Also tolkien never said they were the Bizantine empire either....

Actually...
"In the south Gondor rises to a peak of power, almost reflecting Númenor, and then fades slowly to decayed Middle Age, a kind of proud, venerable, but increasingly impotent Byzantium."
-Letters of J. R. R. Tolkien, no. 131

And in another letter (no 294):
"The progress of the tale ends in what is far more like the re-establishment of an effective Holy Roman Empire with its seat in Rome than anything that would be devised by a 'Nordic'."

He didn't say that Gondor was Byzantine, but the suggestion is certainly there.
Personally, I've likened Gondor to Roman Empire; not in looks, culture that much, but in feel, the way it is at the end of Third Age. A once mighty empire whose handwork is still clear wherever it touched, but in the present, its remains are merely surviving, not thriving.

[Al.]

Forgot about Faramir wielding the Exposition Stick... Been too long a while since I've been to Ithilien...


Actually...
"In the south Gondor rises to a peak of power, almost reflecting Númenor, and then fades slowly to decayed Middle Age, a kind of proud, venerable, but increasingly impotent Byzantium."
-Letters of J. R. R. Tolkien, no. 131

And in another letter (no 294):
"The progress of the tale ends in what is far more like the re-establishment of an effective Holy Roman Empire with its seat in Rome than anything that would be devised by a 'Nordic'."

He didn't say that Gondor was Byzantine, but the suggestion is certainly there.
Personally, I've likened Gondor to Roman Empire; not in looks, culture that much, but in feel, the way it is at the end of Third Age. A once mighty empire whose handwork is still clear wherever it touched, but in the present, its remains are merely surviving, not thriving.

Also in J.R.R Encyclopedia p.249 and LOTR appendix gives us a mixed Culture for Gondor, for example Gondorians "looking west" before meal and making a revered posture is similar to Islamic Mecca Greeting. But yes, Tolkien did say Gondorians were "like" a Bizantine empire, and their founding in Middle Earth is definetly roman, but he also hinted Egypt origin in his letters just as much as Roman, as civilization of stone-working which by the way the "defining character of Gondor" in Middle Earth they are Sailers and Stone workers.

So Ill stick with mixed culture, Bizantine is just a part of it.

[Al.]

Norman Knight, possibly another link to Gondor

[Al.]

Gondorian Blue and white shield

[Wolfhelm]

Nobody here has denied that Gondor has some Egyptian influences, and yes Tolkien did lean on several different cultures in creating Gondor. I would simply contend that the Byzantine empire was the one with the most similarities, Tolkien even referred in one letter to what he called the Byzantine City of Minas Tirith.

[Daeross]

Gondorian Blue and white shield

Not sure I agree on Blue and White being the colours of Gondor... They're the colours of Minas Ithil, without a doubt, if we go with what Turbine's done. Dol Amroth, too, as per the books, if we take white to be synonymous with silver...
Minas Tirith is associated with black and white; the Stewards' banner was uniform white, without any adornment, and the Guard of the Citadel was stated to have the livery of the line of Elendil (stars, crown, Tree) embroidered on their surcoats, alone in Gondor (or elsewhere, as the suggestion goes).

Men of Pinnath Gelin, the Green 'Hills', came to join the fight dressed in green.

But Gondor, as a whole?
No idea. One might assume that they'd have the ruler's colours/emblems representing the whole Kingdom. Just like in Rohan.

Hmm... *ponders the ramble on what to expect from Gondor, based on what's currently on Live*

[Radhruin_EU]

But Gondor, as a whole?
No idea. One might assume that they'd have the ruler's colours/emblems representing the whole Kingdom. Just like in Rohan.

Unlikely, because we know they were into heraldry in Gondor and that implies that different lords would have and use their own emblems and colours. (And you'd also expect to see umpteen different things painted on shields in Rohan).

[Al.]

Its A=B=C logic.

Some gondorians used white and blue, hence a Soldier from Gondor can wear blue and white.

Thats is logical, ilogical would be:

Some gondorians used blue and white, hence gondorians can look red and purple.

Radhruin is using the late example.