TRANSCRIPT: Twitter Dev Chat August 21, 2013 - Class Changes

[Mar-Evayave]

Those are actually relatively easy deeds. For RKs, you don't even have to be in combat to work on your healing deeds. Just spam yourself in town. It's what I did on both RK and mini.

IIRC that isn't feasible in some cases. There are, I believe, some RK class skill deeds that require them to use healing skills that require being fully healing-attuned. It is impossible to be full healing-attuned when not in combat, because the attuning wears off within moments. Even so, I found it easy to find a lowbie mob and just stand my back to it, healing myself until I'd reached my daily maximum.

[TinDragon]

IIRC that isn't feasible in some cases. There are, I believe, some RK class skill deeds that require them to use healing skills that require being fully healing-attuned. It is impossible to be full healing-attuned when not in combat, because the attuning wears off within moments. Even so, I found it easy to find a lowbie mob and just stand my back to it, healing myself until I'd reached my daily maximum.

Training dummies in Bree solve that problem. You can just autoattack to keep yourself in combat, and that way you don't take damage or move away from full healing attunement in order to stay in combat. Don't remember how I did it though. Probably the "let the mob whack away at me" method that you mentioned.

[Rufkin]

My main concern are the deeds that many people skip because it simply is a skill rarely used (and gated by maximum per day use and a cooldown), the deeds that you cannot control (like the rk deed of having your skills resisted), and the ones that take excessive amounts of time to complete (like the legendary abilities in Moria). I have nine characters that I intend to play to the new level cap, five of which are 85 now. It just isn't feasible to expect even the five characters to complete every single skill/race/legendary deed in time for HD.

Again, I ask the devs; Please explain exactly which deeds we need to finish before HD so that our characters aren't severely gimped. I am not asking for the name of each deed so much as the type of deeds. Perhaps it might be easier to list the deeds that won't grant trait points... or identify only the ones that currently grant traits as where we should focus.

The three answers from the devchat say:

"You'll also earn points for some deeds." -HoarseDev
"Deeds that previously gave traits will give trait points." -DeviledEGG
"Completing," use skill x deeds, legendary trait page deeds, and quests, "will now reward trait points." -DeviledEGG

Can you see my confusion here? It seems to me the devs might have identified exactly which deeds will reward points, but three different answers that could mean similar things could also mean different things from one another. Which will it be? Will class/race/legendary deeds all give trait points. Will some quest deeds also give trait points? Or, will it only be deeds the previously granted traits?

[thefamilyosc]

The answers they gave were quite clear as a whole, you're simply reading too much/too little into their responses. You will get tree pts for: levelling(1pt every 2 levels), completing class deeds(use skill x y times), completing class deeds that grant you legendary skills, whether it be lvl 45 class quests, grinding books starting at lvl 39, or completing the moria epics to get access to legendary skill z. For those of us who blazed our way to cap on alts and didn't bother to complete all class deeds, this will be a minor inconvenience, I myself have to complete the moria epics on 3 toons now, hit up a random mob and spam rk heals for a couple hours with a deed booster, and plant a whole %&$ton of hunter traps. But remember, this is actually optional, relatively painless, and will give you something to occupy your time with until HD launch.

[bohbashum]

but three different answers that could mean similar things could also mean different things from one another. Which will it be? Will class/race/legendary deeds all give trait points. Will some quest deeds also give trait points? Or, will it only be deeds the previously granted traits?

don't read into the responces too much. they check there messages very carefully you know, so all are true.

[TinDragon]

"You'll also earn points for some deeds." -HoarseDev
"Deeds that previously gave traits will give trait points." -DeviledEGG
"Completing," use skill x deeds, legendary trait page deeds, and quests, "will now reward trait points." -DeviledEGG

Looks to me like all class deeds offer points, but they're not the only deeds that offer points. Not sure how else you're translating that.

[Mar-Evayave]

Training dummies in Bree solve that problem. You can just autoattack to keep yourself in combat, and that way you don't take damage or move away from full healing attunement in order to stay in combat. Don't remember how I did it though. Probably the "let the mob whack away at me" method that you mentioned.

That only works if you are at an appropriate level, though, right? There is a significant level gap between lower level dummies and the ones that start reappearing around Dunland. But yeah, I just did that method of just aggroing a mob and then ignoring it. It was harder for those pesky skills that have 5m CDs, but I did manage to finish all my class deeds probably before I got out of Moria.

[DrnknElf]

wait a second? you guys are, for real, going ahead with TREES?

you created one of the best systems in any MMO I have played, with the TRAIT system... only to throw it away for the most played-out system in MMOs? really? im in shock here.

this is THE most disappointed I have been with this game since I have started playing. I will hold off final judgement until I see it... but this does NOT bode well.

even WoW switched to a system closer to what you guys had been doing.


"This will come at the cost of broad utility"

as a career capn, this kills me. you (turbine) have been the ONLY game company that makes MMOs to really nail the jack-of-all-trades characters. they worked really well in Asheron's Call and the Capn, in LOTRO, is THE finest class I have played in ANY MMO.


Turbine, all im reading here is that you've taken the pieces that have made YOUR games great and you are ditching them for what makes your competition, just ok. am I the only one seeing it this way?


im really scared, for the first time, about the future of one of my favorite games...


A28: DeviledEgg They'll still feel like the class you know, just better versions. #LOTRO
A28a: Jinjaah They should feel better catered to the role they were destined to fill. #LOTRO

not from what you all said above this!

Your thoughts on this topic mirror mine almost exactly.

I love the ability to mix and match class traits which more often than not enhance the classes abilities without having to worry about picking one or two traits I don't want or need just to unlock a third trait and spend points to get that specific ability or enhancement. Being able to run hybrid builds and change out a couple of traits here and there which can make a big difference in a character's effectiveness is fun for me.

People have already gone over most of the concerns I have with the LM. I have little faith at all that the LM will be anything like the LM as it is or previous iterations. I'm not even talking about effectiveness in instances either. I remember running through Moria on the LM in the Mirkwood days and I know I'd have been in serious trouble if I hadn't had access to all the skills at that level. I actually didn't run more than 3 red traits because I couldn't afford to have Blinding Flash nerfed to almost uselessness. Sure, it's probably not a problem now with the way Moria has been changed but that's just an example. While leveling my LM I had quite a bit of trouble with pathers I didn't see soon enough or when tabbing to another mob it would tab to a mob which wasn't in combat and wouldn't have been in combat but I ended up hitting it with an aggro skill and ended up with more mobs. Having access to all my skills allowed me to survive the situation more often than not. With how I expect quite a few of the LM skills to be locked behind the trait trees I don't think I would have anywhere near the same effectiveness.

I think the biggest problem I'm going to have with the trait tree setup is how skills are going to be locked behind spending points. If the tree had been used instead to enhance the base effectiveness of skills in a certain line I think I would have fewer problems.

I could use my minstrel as an example of how that currently works. I've been healing 4y/3b (on content that's even remotely challenging) for a long time now. None of those traits unlock skills but instead enhance skills or overall trait line effectiveness. As it is I don't get the absolute most overall healing output due to not having a fourth blue skill. However, the four yellow traits and bonuses allow the group to take less damage overall and allows me to do quicker "Oh, you know what" type of healing as well as keep more group buffs up and longer. With the new trait tree setup will I actually be able to do that? Will I be able to keep the same advantages of the current yellow line all while having all my heals like I have currently? Even if it does work out on my minstrel will I be able to keep the same types of setups and effectiveness with the other classes? I have eight of the nine classes currently at level cap.

Again I have the old worry about the captain which has already been brought up. Am I going to get pigeonholed into one single traitline again like old for groups? The tanking line is irrelevant to me so that only leaves two traitlines for me on the captain. Is the tree system going to push me into HoH or go home for groups? I have no problem with HoH when I'm mainhealing any content with some sort of difficulty even though I can mainheal almost any of the current 6mans t1 or t2 while redline although that really has little to do with the traitline and more to do with the content.

I've already gone on long enough so I won't bring up any of the fears I have about the other classes. However, I'm not looking forward to this change one bit. I'll give it a shot as well as the expansion but at the moment I'm not excited at all about the direction the game is taking with Helm's Deep.

[TinDragon]

That only works if you are at an appropriate level, though, right? There is a significant level gap between lower level dummies and the ones that start reappearing around Dunland. But yeah, I just did that method of just aggroing a mob and then ignoring it. It was harder for those pesky skills that have 5m CDs, but I did manage to finish all my class deeds probably before I got out of Moria.

Training dummies are weird. For skills that actually require you to hit the mob, they need to not be gray. For most other skills it doesn't matter. Since the healing is done on you or another person, it doesn't matter what level the mob is. Interestingly enough, the same holds true for block/parry/evade deeds. To work on my minstrel's evade deed I just unequipped my shield (to prevent blocks) and my sword (to prevent parries), and then every time the dummy attacked I got an evade that brought the deed up.

I'm not sure how it would function with deeds that require you to get resisted, but I'd imaging being a higher level than the dummy would eliminate most resists anyway, so not a great way to do those deeds even if it worked.

[Mar-Evayave]

Training dummies are weird. For skills that actually require you to hit the mob, they need to not be gray. For most other skills it doesn't matter. Since the healing is done on you or another person, it doesn't matter what level the mob is. Interestingly enough, the same holds true for block/parry/evade deeds. To work on my minstrel's evade deed I just unequipped my shield (to prevent blocks) and my sword (to prevent parries), and then every time the dummy attacked I got an evade that brought the deed up.

I'm not sure how it would function with deeds that require you to get resisted, but I'd imaging being a higher level than the dummy would eliminate most resists anyway, so not a great way to do those deeds even if it worked.

lol I wish I'd thought of that! I'm gonna have to remember that if any of my remaining toons ever get deeds for evade and whatnot. xD

[Elemiire]

Your thoughts on this topic mirror mine almost exactly.

I love the ability to mix and match class traits which more often than not enhance the classes abilities without having to worry about picking one or two traits I don't want or need just to unlock a third trait and spend points to get that specific ability or enhancement. Being able to run hybrid builds and change out a couple of traits here and there which can make a big difference in a character's effectiveness is fun for me.

People have already gone over most of the concerns I have with the LM. I have little faith at all that the LM will be anything like the LM as it is or previous iterations. I'm not even talking about effectiveness in instances either. I remember running through Moria on the LM in the Mirkwood days and I know I'd have been in serious trouble if I hadn't had access to all the skills at that level. I actually didn't run more than 3 red traits because I couldn't afford to have Blinding Flash nerfed to almost uselessness. Sure, it's probably not a problem now with the way Moria has been changed but that's just an example. While leveling my LM I had quite a bit of trouble with pathers I didn't see soon enough or when tabbing to another mob it would tab to a mob which wasn't in combat and wouldn't have been in combat but I ended up hitting it with an aggro skill and ended up with more mobs. Having access to all my skills allowed me to survive the situation more often than not. With how I expect quite a few of the LM skills to be locked behind the trait trees I don't think I would have anywhere near the same effectiveness.

I think the biggest problem I'm going to have with the trait tree setup is how skills are going to be locked behind spending points. If the tree had been used instead to enhance the base effectiveness of skills in a certain line I think I would have fewer problems.

I could use my minstrel as an example of how that currently works. I've been healing 4y/3b (on content that's even remotely challenging) for a long time now. None of those traits unlock skills but instead enhance skills or overall trait line effectiveness. As it is I don't get the absolute most overall healing output due to not having a fourth blue skill. However, the four yellow traits and bonuses allow the group to take less damage overall and allows me to do quicker "Oh, you know what" type of healing as well as keep more group buffs up and longer. With the new trait tree setup will I actually be able to do that? Will I be able to keep the same advantages of the current yellow line all while having all my heals like I have currently? Even if it does work out on my minstrel will I be able to keep the same types of setups and effectiveness with the other classes? I have eight of the nine classes currently at level cap.

Again I have the old worry about the captain which has already been brought up. Am I going to get pigeonholed into one single traitline again like old for groups? The tanking line is irrelevant to me so that only leaves two traitlines for me on the captain. Is the tree system going to push me into HoH or go home for groups? I have no problem with HoH when I'm mainhealing any content with some sort of difficulty even though I can mainheal almost any of the current 6mans t1 or t2 while redline although that really has little to do with the traitline and more to do with the content.

I've already gone on long enough so I won't bring up any of the fears I have about the other classes. However, I'm not looking forward to this change one bit. I'll give it a shot as well as the expansion but at the moment I'm not excited at all about the direction the game is taking with Helm's Deep.

+ 100 cookie points for that. I couldn't possibly agree more.

I'm afraid whatever we say will not change anything; this is going live, guys. Oh well... I at least hope we can influence some of the decisions they're making...

[Lohi]

Interestingly enough, the same holds true for block/parry/evade deeds.

Ya, that's how I did it on my guardian, just got surrounded by lots of gray enemies and let them hit me. Had to back up periodically so most were in front of me (block doesn't work from behind), and make sure I wasn't targetting them to cause auto attacks. It went very fast to get the day's limit.

[Mithgalad]

Please change the virtue system. It is currently the thing holding me from paying a subscription. The amount of grinding I know is ahead of me is really off-putting.

[Lohi]

Virtues really aren't that bad. If you don't do any virtues you are NOT gimped. They are essentially minor bonuses, used mainly as gear checks in end game. Yes, it is nice to have them, don't get me wrong, but they bonus is not so huge that it should ruin the game for you. This game is not so difficult that you need every last bonus immediately before you can make any progress. You will absolutely be able to pull your own weight in end game instances while they're only half finished or worse.

Also now we have so many virtue deeds out there that they go quick. Pick the ones that are easy and skip the others. Do NOT do them on level, there is no point to this and it will just make you level up too fast. Most of the slayer deeds will be mostly completed merely by doing quests in the area, so finishing off the deed is fast. Explore deeds are easy (at high levels they're essentially automatically completed for you if you do the quest line, it's gotten that simplistic). Pick the virtues that you think are best for you and that have already been raised, do not let anyone else pressure you into what are mandatory virtues (which tend to be the hardest ones to get).

[Sandwiches]

Q15: Laire: Using all of their points, on average how many active skills does a 85 toon have? #LOTRO
A15: Jinjaah: Our goal, and it isn’t the same across the board, is for all classes to have around 20 skills after spending all their points.
A15a: Things like travel paths will not count towards this cap. #LOTRO

Hold on... So we're being forced to use traits now in order to have access to skills?

I mean, I know traits are pretty much a necessity due to the bonuses they add and whatnot, but you never needed to actually have class traits equipped in order to use skills (Save Legendary traits). Does this mean a guardian traited for tanking won't be able to use skills such as thrust and salt in the wound because these skills add to DPS and DPS is not meant to be on tanks?

Q11: Raven-EU: What was the primary driver(s) for this change? #LOTRO
A11: Jinjaah: I think there were two main things that drove these changes: #LOTRO
A11a: 1. We wanted to design the trait trees in such a way that as soon as you leave the intro, #LOTRO
A11b: your trait line starts to play as it was envisioned instead of later on down the road when you began to collect traits. #LOTRO
A11c: 2. We really wanted each trait line to sort of stand out from the rest and reduce some of the class homogenization #LOTRO
A11d: that had slowly occurred over the years. #LOTRO

This statement is quite ironic... You're saying this change will reduce class homogenization but you're making a new system of preset trees (which probably don't have a mix and match feature), and saying that this adds much more diversity compared to the ability of players to mix and match traits in order to make a character more suited to exactly how the player wants to play the class.

Also, if it was your intention to give new players access to traits, why not just update your system so that a new class trait slot unlocks every five levels or so and have every class trait unlock immediately or when the skill a trait applies to is unlocked?

At the end, I get the feeling Warner Bros. is to blame for this.

[Arphil]

So I understand that the virtues are, as always, to the boring farming, with deeds?

[Moln]

So, I saw a response that the deeds to perfrom a skill so mayn times will now grant a trait point rather than a specific trait. Will the underlying traits be the ones that are always unlocked by level? If not, will there be some in game way to know that you need that skill for a deed? Currently the deeds are unlocked after you have both achieved a certain level (and not always the level you could buy the skill at) and then using it, which in some cases makes it possible to 'miss' the deed.

[Truechaos]

Q19: @greendragoon Is there going to be any effort to streamline the Warden's massive (and convoluted) abilitiy list? #LOTRO
A19: DeviledEgg In short, yes. Some gambits are being trimmed, some are being placed in different specialization.
A19a: The total number of gambits will be decided by how you choose to specialize.

how is the wardens skills and gambits massive and convoluted? they are only convoluted to those that dont understand the class. personally, as a warden, i like having access to all my gambits whenever i need them without having to try to remember what gambits i have access to just because of the new trait system. need some healing while fighting but dont have access to my healing gambits because of the traits i have active. i think of all the gambits there are only about 2 or 3 that i dont use on a regular basis. i still want to withhold complete judgement until i give the new system an honest try, but i cant see what change what has been working for the past 7 years.

[Gerwin]

Can´t wait!!

[Ninja135]

Please don't make us Guardians irrelevant

That being said, I salute all changes to the classes, sounds like they'll bring a lot more fun to the game

[Cheethorne]

i think of all the gambits there are only about 2 or 3 that i dont use on a regular basis.

That is going to be true for all classes. There will always be someone out there that uses all or nearly all of a class' skills or traits or whatever. If you search hard enough, you'll find someone that loves the Hunter's yellow line or, like you, remembers and uses nearly all of the 55 gambits (including the javelin ones) in all three stances on a regular basis. However, they can run some pretty simple tracking schemes to figure out what skills the majority of people do not use.

That said, I do not especially like tree-point systems in games and, while I may like this one (who knows), I would have preferred something that expanded and streamlined what the trait system does now with more skills attached to traits, a lot more traits to work with, and a more tree-like structure instead of quite as free-form as now, but that is mostly because I do not like tree-point systems.

[HNT]

I'm curious as to wether this means players will need to grind out one set of LIs per tree potentially resulting in up to 6 LIs per toon? That .... would not be fun.

[thefamilyosc]

I'm curious as to wether this means players will need to grind out one set of LIs per tree potentially resulting in up to 6 LIs per toon? That .... would not be fun.

Potentially, for some classes. What is more likely for most classes is that you'll have much the same skill pool between each tree, just the effect will change depending on your specializatin and degree of investment. In any event, we have to do separate LIs atm if we really want to specialize. Shield wall is a useful skill, but you'll never find it on my tanking belt, I use a swap for that. Similarly you'd never find ebbing ire cd on my moors LI, etc etc etc.

[Casinasch1]

Sapiens ?!?
Do we still get the Translation of the twitter Chat?

[Frisco]

Q6: Laire: Will we be able to save different trait set-ups? If so, how many? #LOTRO
A6: HoarseDev: Two set-ups to start. You can purchase more if you like. #LOTRO

Bwahaha...called it!

The real driving force behind trait changes.

Instead of being able to change a trait here and there easily, you'll either have to buy more slots, or be really good at memorizing where you spent points. Adding inconveniences to sell you conveniences...it's like printing money!