TRANSCRIPT: Twitter Dev Chat August 21, 2013 - Class Changes

[Comstrike]

Honestly I could care much less about game systems. I want to know about the housing refit. I put a zoning change in for the hot-tub and darnit if I've heard anything yet.

We should have kickstarter campaigns to community fund desired features and such.

[bohbashum]

I want to know what percentage of total traiting across all trees will we be able to fill. Mounted combat trees let us fill over half of all traits, which is VASTLY different from if we would only be able to fill, say 20% of available trait slots.

lol, I really hope it won't be like MC XD that would defeat the purpose of a tree trait system really. like the innital explination we got. sounds like going away from hybrids and into very focused rolls, so "hybrid" will look very very differant. I'd hope the depth between dps/healing:survivablity to be a much bigger choice, and have less of "this is the solo line, this is the group line, this is the curiosity line", and make them all viable in there own way (will always be a defunked one though, just bound to happen)

I expect it to be much much deeper than MC. but 77 points again maybe (always thought that number was like that for a reason, it might be a hint to how many on tree). we got told somewhere going off our main tree will cost us in potency, I think that will basically mean any points spend outside of our main line will cost twice as much. because it sounds like the old traits (like buying slots for VIP) will basically still be there, so you'll get 7 set traits depending on what spec you choose. like choosing your horse, then what line to go down. but what horse/spec you choose changes how the outcome is much more.

[Eartholloth]

This is an example of people trying way too hard to read things into comments.

Are we adding a new class for Helm's Deep? No.

Then there's the reality of the larger impossible to answer questions which we usually ignore. Questions with "ever" or "never" in them.
Are we EVER going to add a new class? Great question. Maybe. Maybe Not. "Ever" is a really, incredibly long time. I'm going to go out on a limb and bet no one can answer a question like that about what they may or may not do at any point in the future.

Yeah well from now on it's best to take anything Turbine says with a HUGE grain of salt...

[Cheery]

It was asked, I believe, twice in the above conversation but not answered. Are racial traits at all affected by these changes. Personally, I think that they need overhauling far more than Class traits. It makes no difference whether I am a Stoor or a Fallohide, whether I'm from Mirkwood or Rivendell. I am given a set of passive traits, good and bad. I am given a set of slayer deeds to acquire a few more traits, the most useful ones being travel ones. I wish there was more variety in racial characteristics.

[Deusdictum]

While skills you no longer have access to on changing specs are removed from your toolbar, they are returned to the same locations when you switch back into the spec. I'd think you shouldn't have to re-arrange your toolbars too much, if at all.

At least, that's how it's functioning as of 5 seconds ago on my internal build. I needed to double-check.

Huh... how does this all interact with Lua quickslots? Not at all? So if we put skills from one traitline in a Lua quickslot, then switch traitlines, does it go away? If so, when we switch back, does it come back? Or, if not, does it gray out or otherwise fail?

[TinDragon]

Huh... how does this all interact with Lua quickslots? Not at all? So if we put skills from one traitline in a Lua quickslot, then switch traitlines, does it go away? If so, when we switch back, does it come back? Or, if not, does it gray out or otherwise fail?

I believe it grays them out. It shouldn't drop out.
(You can test this by placing any "normal" skill that gets improved later on in a Lua quickslot. When the skill is upgraded, the one that's still there is the old non-improved version. I have a feeling this would work in a similar way.)

[JTollers]

Q19: @greendragoon Is there going to be any effort to streamline the Warden's massive (and convoluted) abilitiy list? #LOTRO
A19: DeviledEgg In short, yes. Some gambits are being trimmed, some are being placed in different specialization.
A19a: The total number of gambits will be decided by how you choose to specialize.

I use to be confused by statements/replies like this, now I just see them as informational and context. It's disappointing still to me, however, despite being informative bc it happens where there is a correction on one direction (in fact the last dev chat i believe) in example where people say, "why is the game so easy," reply: "it's not easy for everyone," (and this is true and good to be said) but this correction does not seem to happen the other way around on par. E.g. "It's not convoluted to everyone." That is why I see it as informational.

LotRO met different levels of readiness by having predefined classes that were entry, moderate and advanced. This gave players something to start with or be intentional about...e.g. I leveled a LM and Burg and knew that after playing 2 of the 3 advanced classes, I really could not invest the time into learning the 3rd (warden), so, I leveled a Guard to help the kin in the tank spot.

I am not suggesting that trait trees will make playing the various previously defined advanced classes easier or more accessible as that can be gained and pushed in a tree system, too.

[FragLimiT]

The single-most important question I was looking to have answered is: Why do the classes need a revamp?
I do understand the need for a change in the trait and virtue equipping mechanics. They are a royal PITA and have been ever since I started playing. I do also understand the need for turbine to increase their monetary gain and having more stuff purchasable from the store (you get the first two trait presets for free ala Warsteed) than class deed boosters is also understandable.
Whatever happened to making better content and quality instead of adding more purchasable stuff? To me it feels like more and more Pay2Win. I might be over-conservative but these are my concerns to have LotRO turn into a store-bound game.
I do have a feeling that all these changes take up so many man-hours that the content quality will be sub-par again as it was with RoR (yes, this is also my opinion). Please have Gandalf step in when this is happening again and put a "You shall not pass!" on you.

[dietlbomb]

I'm still a skeptic about the trait tree idea. Some points:

1. Having to spend all your points every time you want to respec. This seems kinda lame. We still don't know how things will work out, but this doesn't encourage experimentation.

2. Three roles per class. Not every class has had three roles so far. Champions can be tanks or dps. Guardians can be tanks or dps. Hunters can be dps. I'm not sure why every class needs to be shoehorned into 3 roles. For instance, the champion could have been given 2 trees with more interesting choices within each tree. The captain and the lore-master arguably have 4 roles!

3. Classes with generalist roles. If the purpose of this class redesign is to encourage specialization, what will become of generalist classes like the captain and lore-master? The captain's specialty is to be able to shift between healing, buffing, and damage during the battle. Will there be a trait tree to make the captain extra captainy, or just trees that stress healing, buffing, tanking, and damage?

4. Legendary items. The current ability to mix and match traits between sets allows a certain amount of hybridization. But legendary items do this as well. Captains currently get a large percentage of their healing bonuses from legendary items and not from traits. Is there a plan to update legacies to discourage hybridization as well?

5. Why do people not take statements from the turbine team at face value? Because the public face of the Turbine team revels in communicating non-information (e.g. the horseshoe, Soon™, etc). Not everyone gets the joke.

[spelunker]

2. Three roles per class. Not every class has had three roles so far. Champions can be tanks or dps. Guardians can be tanks or dps. Hunters can be dps. I'm not sure why every class needs to be shoehorned into 3 roles. For instance, the champion could have been given 2 trees with more interesting choices within each tree. The captain and the lore-master arguably have 4 roles!

Generally agree with your points, this however i think can be argued other ways.

Hunters will presumably have a mobile dps tree (with less range) an immobile dps tree, and a CC tree

Champs already have a AoE trait line, Single target line, and Tanking line.

Guards have a survivability Trait Line, Threat line, and dps one.

There are some broken or misguided ones, like warden yellow line, to be sure, but pick any class, and i'll give you 3 separate roles they are already designed to fill, adapting this to the new trait trees is the easy part.

[dietlbomb]

Generally agree with your points, this however i think can be argued other ways.

Hunters will presumably have a mobile dps tree (with less range) an immobile dps tree, and a CC tree

Champs already have a AoE trait line, Single target line, and Tanking line.

Guards have a survivability Trait Line, Threat line, and dps one.

There are some broken or misguided ones, like warden yellow line, to be sure, but pick any class, and i'll give you 3 separate roles they are already designed to fill, adapting this to the new trait trees is the easy part.

I agree that these classes currently have three lines, but I don't agree that they make any sense. They were shoehorned into 3 lines when someone decided that 3 was the number of lines for each class and that the number of lines for each class would be 3.

Apart from this reasoning, I haven't seen any argument for separating the AoE and Single-target dps lines for champions or for separating the survivability or threat lines for the guardian. Champions always do both AoE and Single-target dps when dps traited; it's just a matter of degree. And the absurdity of separating survivability and threat for a tank should be self evident.

This new hunter idea of having a mobile line and an immobile line is intriguing, at least, so I can't complain about that yet.

[TinDragon]

1. Having to spend all your points every time you want to respec. This seems kinda lame. We still don't know how things will work out, but this doesn't encourage experimentation.

Yes and no. Experimentation may be a little more of a hassle, but your "go-to" builds can be saved and switched to on the fly.

2. Three roles per class. Not every class has had three roles so far. Champions can be tanks or dps. Guardians can be tanks or dps. Hunters can be dps. I'm not sure why every class needs to be shoehorned into 3 roles. For instance, the champion could have been given 2 trees with more interesting choices within each tree. The captain and the lore-master arguably have 4 roles!

Champs have their DPS role split into two sections, single target and AoE. Hunters are a bit iffy, though it doesn't really surprise me with the direction they're taking it in (mobile, stationary, and CC). Guardians might be tough to throw three roles to, but I mean they do already have three lines.
Captains do have four roles but the dev has already stated that buffing will never be attached to a specific role again, which means only three to worry about: damage, heals, and tanking. I can't tell if you're splitting up CC and debuffs for LM, or if you're defining pets as a role, but I don't think either are particularly accurate.

3. Classes with generalist roles. If the purpose of this class redesign is to encourage specialization, what will become of generalist classes like the captain and lore-master? The captain's specialty is to be able to shift between healing, buffing, and damage during the battle. Will there be a trait tree to make the captain extra captainy, or just trees that stress healing, buffing, tanking, and damage?

Right now you can't do this very well anyway. If you're in battle, you cannot effectively take over to be main tank. Captain DPS is a joke even with traits. A captain never switches away from buffing either, he's always doing that no matter what role he's currently filling.

4. Legendary items. The current ability to mix and match traits between sets allows a certain amount of hybridization. But legendary items do this as well. Captains currently get a large percentage of their healing bonuses from legendary items and not from traits. Is there a plan to update legacies to discourage hybridization as well?

This is one thing a lot of us brought up to Rock a couple months ago. It's looking like this will be changed in part at least.

[spelunker]

Apart from this reasoning, I haven't seen any argument for separating the AoE and Single-target dps lines for champions or for separating the survivability or threat lines for the guardian. Champions always do both AoE and Single-target dps when dps traited; it's just a matter of degree. And the absurdity of separating survivability and threat for a tank should be self evident.

the problem with each example you've stated, is one of the two just doesn't make sense to bother with.

Guards don't gain all that much survivability in traiting yellow compared to blue and running threat instead of block stance. If the current balance of this were switched so yellow line was sturdier, or blue was squishier, or whatever else, things would be very different.

Same for the champ, it doesn't make sense to run yellow line 95% of the time because only one target is going to survive long, so AoE in Red-line is good enough for trash, and is clearly superior for the bosses. What would happen if raging blades were made the yellow line capstone, and blade-storm required 5 fervour unless you traited significantly into yellow? All of a sudden champ AoE is kinda ###### in red-line and there are more trade-offs to consider.

[SophiaMarquette]

Q40: @JVaughn227 What's being done to address the current in game lag and severity of it?
Q40: Sapience Some changes are going in to address mounted combat lag with Update 11.3.
Q40a: We also continue to add more monitoring tools to help isolate other issues.

This is why I left a couple of months ago

I love to solo and raid in the moors but when I can't even move or get a skill off in a fight!?! then the fun is gone for me!!!

You not only lost a long time player but you lost the income from my sub for not giving long over due attention to a problem that you knew needed fixing.

I don't care about the new release or content!! My $$$ and I will return when you fix the horrible lag in the moors!!!

Hope to see you in the future.

[dietlbomb]

the problem with each example you've stated, is one of the two just doesn't make sense to bother with.

Guards don't gain all that much survivability in traiting yellow compared to blue and running threat instead of block stance. If the current balance of this were switched so yellow line was sturdier, or blue was squishier, or whatever else, things would be very different.

Indeed, that's why the current guardian trait setup isn't a total disaster. If those trait lines were made exclusive and more potent, would guardians be able to tank well?

Same for the champ, it doesn't make sense to run yellow line 95% of the time because only one target is going to survive long, so AoE in Red-line is good enough for trash, and is clearly superior for the bosses. What would happen if raging blades were made the yellow line capstone, and blade-storm required 5 fervour unless you traited significantly into yellow? All of a sudden champ AoE is kinda ###### in red-line and there are more trade-offs to consider.

Now that's just mean. Taking away our shing-shing unless we trait for AoE dps? They wouldn't do that. Why would anyone play a champion after they did that?

[TinDragon]

This is why I left a couple of months ago

I love to solo and raid in the moors but when I can't even move or get a skill off in a fight!?! then the fun is gone for me!!!

You not only lost a long time player but you lost the income from my sub for not giving long over due attention to a problem that you knew needed fixing.

I don't care about the new release or content!! My $$$ and I will return when you fix the horrible lag in the moors!!!

Hope to see you in the future.

They've been working on the lag for quite a while. Almost every update includes something to fix it.

[faithshielder]

Thank you LOTRO dev team for the twitter chat!

I do want to point out to the other hunters though, that the devs never said anything about making hunters short-range. They only said that the huntsman trait tree would have less range and could fire shots without inductions, while the bowmaster could fire away from a much greater range, but be forced to stand still. This sounds like they are comparing two of the trait trees to give players an idea as to how trees are being changed.

[Macroscian]

Thanks for a calm response to a perhaps somewhat angry post, TinDragon.

My beef with changed ranges is that currently hunter is the one ranged class that makes sense.

Mini has two different ranged ranges, if the start skill stuns you have to pause the rotation and move forward half a step before you can use the next since that will be out of range. LM has longer range for initial skill than next skill as well. Same for RK. Of the ranged DPS, hunter is currently the only one with a logical same range.

(Frankly it's about same with melee, if mob does not stop to debuff right on top of the character, it 90% runs through your character and end up on the wrong side when you use movement in combat enabled - this means you start skill rotation and then break it in order to turn around to face your opponent who is now on the other side. You Must Face the Target. If the mob does stop to debuff, it seems perhaps half the time the mob can quietly attack you with stuff like paws while your 2-handed sword/halberd/knife/axe can't actually reach the mob until you tap forward.)

Don't mess up this range

[TinDragon]

Mini has two different ranged ranges, if the start skill stuns you have to pause the rotation and move forward half a step before you can use the next since that will be out of range. LM has longer range for initial skill than next skill as well. Same for RK. Of the ranged DPS, hunter is currently the only one with a logical same range.

Yeah, that whole thing is a bit irritating. In theory the ranges should be fine when implementing this change, as I'd assume all skills would change their distances equally. Of course, you know what they say about assuming, so we'll have to see.
Unfortunately I don't know enough about Skirmisher Stance to say what happens to the ranges with the BA, and I'm guessing they'll mirror that pretty closely, so maybe someone with a BA who actually uses Skirmisher Stance can chime in.

[Hatter_of_Bree]

So, the "20 skills" issue is something I'd like to address.

First, it is referring to skills which actively impact gameplay. Things such as teleports, pets, stances, and fluff skills (and probably another category which I'm not thinking of off the top of my head) will not count against that amount.

Second, the "20 skills" is not a hard and fast number, but more of a general guideline. You may end up with more or less, depending on your specialization.

Third, each class has a pool of general skills (skills we feel are important to all three specialization lines) and more specific skills. How you choose to invest your traits will have an impact on what skills are available to you. I'll use the Burglar as an example. Please bear in mind some of the specific skills I'm mentioning are new, and we'll discuss their impact at a later time.

Some general skills every single Burglar will eventually have access to include (but are not limited to): Riddle, Subtle Stab, Double-edged Strike, Reveal Weakness and Hide in Plain Sight. Now, if I choose to specialize as a Gambler, I'll immediately gain access to Lucky Strike and Hedge Your Bet. From here, I could completely fill in the Gambler tree, picking up skills such as Gambler's Advantage, Trip and All In. Or, I could choose to not invest all of my points in Gambler to pick up Stun Dust from the Quiet Knife line and Trick: Dust in the Eyes from the Mischief-maker line.

The exact number of skills you have will vary, based on how you choose to specialize your character and spend your trait points.

Thanks for the honest answer. Seems, i will hate this change with passion, as all it will do for me will make me have LESS options in game, that currently. Wont say i ragequit, becauswe i wont, but my likeness of loving this change is shattered. As it was exactly what i feared it will be.

current setup allows me to pick any Reds, any greens and any blues i like, to get what i want, and i still have ALL my skills, with just different strenghts. Only final few traits give specific skills.

The new tree system would:
- first - inmmediately lock me out of having all current skills, only subset depending on tree.
- second - (depending of mahimum points) lock me out of having all top level trait picks for lack pof points to open them on trees.

There was said, we can switch trait trees on the fly. If that is possible in combat, i can envision having to opwn as many trait tree position from store and speccing them so that i can stuill have access on each skill, in difrferent trees, and so in combat rotation becomes 'switch blue1' cast utility 'switch red' cast damage 1 damage 2 damage 2 'switch green 3' cast emergency heal 'switch blue 2' cast emergency powerrestore...

Or not?

[Adanamir]

As with the Big Battles chat, quite a lot of new information, and turns out all my questions got answered - I appreciate it

Regarding the novelties - I am not sure I like all of them, but I prefer to see how they play out. I think the most affected will be the hybrid classes, as they will have to sacrifice more than they do now. On the other hand, strengthening specialisation might just prove to be a good thing. For example, captain damage finally not being mediocre in groups; certainly, we won't have captains rivaling the damage of champions or hunters, but having someone dealing decent DPS and being able to buff would be definitely useful. The same with healing or tanking - if captains can perform these roles as primary in something more than 3-man instances, I think many people will be happy, as long as buffs are not seriously affected.

I also like the idea for hunters - I think choosing between long range/stationary and medium range/mobile is actually a very logical choice. By the way, I presume "medium range", as I doubt anyone in Turbine intends to make hunters a melee class in that trait line. There is a similar concept in Guild Wars 2, by the way - you lose range when you switch from a longbow to a short bow, but you definitely remain a ranged class.

In the end, however, there will be an obvious loss in flexibility, as trait trees inevitably lead you in a path, unless there are multiple (and mutually exclusive) options at each tree level. Even then, you will still have to spend X points to get to trait Y, in line with the developers' idea how specialised trait Y is, which takes away flexibility, after all, and quite possibly adds traits you wouldn't necessarily equip otherwise. Still, I will reserve final judgment for the time when I can actually test the new trait system, as it may work out well, after all.

[Tangaar]

Creeps dont get get ANY kind of change just trait corruptions bonuses?
Come on..creeps need a loto of class changes...seriously

[trancejeremy]

The single-most important question I was looking to have answered is: Why do the classes need a revamp?

The answer to most of the changes the last few years is "Because other MMORPGs do it that way".

Tree trait systems, as awful as they are, are a standard feature in many popular MMORPGs. They are after new people (from other games) rather than trying to keep the people they already have.

[frickinmuck]

There was said, we can switch trait trees on the fly. If that is possible in combat, i can envision having to opwn as many trait tree position from store and speccing them so that i can stuill have access on each skill, in difrferent trees, and so in combat rotation becomes 'switch blue1' cast utility 'switch red' cast damage 1 damage 2 damage 2 'switch green 3' cast emergency heal 'switch blue 2' cast emergency powerrestore...

Or not?

It's already been stated by the devs that we will need to be out of combat to change spec. Which is good, because the approach you've described here would be terrible. Ultimately I think it's a good thing that people are being forced to make some difficult choices about character builds. I think the current system of having our cake and eat it too is boring and homogeneous.

I love how people complain and complain about how 'easy' the game has gotten, yet the second something comes along to make the game more challenging we hear even more whining.

I just wish people would wait until they've actually had a chance to try it out before foreclosing on the whole idea. Let's just trust the devs that they care about the game as much as we do. After all, it's how they make a living.

[little-wolf]

I love how so many people already "hate" the new system that we haven't even seen yet, either due to their own misunderstanding of the devs' comments or "because every other game with trait trees sucks".

How about we give it a chance first, and then react accordingly based on facts rather than conjecture?