Wormtongue's control...

[ElffriendNick]

Hello all, I'm currently creating a RP character and I had a quick question. How long was Wormtongue with Theoden, how long was Theoden in his corrupted state?

[Egorvlad]

Grima becomes Theoden's chief council in 3014, in the same year Theoden's health begins to fail (most likely due to Grima). We do not know how close to Theoden Grima was before that, but he is apparently a local in Edoras so I'd assume they'd been well acquainted for some time.

P.S. Gandalf arrives at Edoras and cures Theoden on March 2, 3019

[YamydeAragon]

So in 5 years, Grima the Wormtongue almost killed Theoden with his poison & sickened Eowyn as well.

[Nymphonic]

So in 5 years, Grima the Wormtongue almost killed Theoden with his poison & sickened Eowyn as well.

I'm drawing a blank on him sickening Eowyn. How did he do it?

[YamydeAragon]

I'm drawing a blank on him sickening Eowyn. How did he do it?

This is what Gandalf explain to about Eowyns afliction, after she got hurt by the Nazgul. He said that wasn't the Nazgul shadow what made her sucumb but she was carrying that poison for a while. Every time Wormtongue questioned the worth of the house of Theoden, when talking to the king, he insulted the king & their descendants as well. & as loyal she was to the king, she was always beside overhearing all that. Gandalf also speculate what other nastyness Wormtongue could have said to her when Eomer go on his bussiness & she was alone.
Gandalf cured Theoden, but not Eowyn. Maybe because he couldn't, maybe there was a higher purpose. The poison didn't sorted the same kind of effect on her as on the king. If she wasn't poisoned she may not attempt to go to war to prove her worth & will not kill the Nazgul with the hobbit help. & If she didn't sucumb, Aragorn may not be able to prove that he was the returning king, using his hands of healer on her.

[Wilros]

This is what Gandalf explain to about Eowyns afliction, after she got hurt by the Nazgul. He said that wasn't the Nazgul shadow what made her sucumb but she was carrying that poison for a while. Every time Wormtongue questioned the worth of the house of Theoden, when talking to the king, he insulted the king & their descendants as well. & as loyal she was to the king, she was always beside overhearing all that. Gandalf also speculate what other nastyness Wormtongue could have said to her when Eomer go on his bussiness & she was alone.
Gandalf cured Theoden, but not Eowyn. Maybe because he couldn't, maybe there was a higher purpose. The poison didn't sorted the same kind of effect on her as on the king. If she wasn't poisoned she may not attempt to go to war to prove her worth & will not kill the Nazgul with the hobbit help. & If she didn't sucumb, Aragorn may not be able to prove that he was the returning king, using his hands of healer on her.

I had never picked up on this idea that Eowyn was afflicted by Wormtongue as well. Thanks for bringing to our attention Yamy!

[Harper_of_Gondolin]

I had never picked up on this idea that Eowyn was afflicted by Wormtongue as well.

I imagine it never occurred to you simply because the notion, as presented in this thread, is not correct: what the text declares has been misinterpreted; false attributions have been ascribed, and metaphors taken literally.

Eowyn had been afflicted by Théoden's fall from dignity and Wormtongue simply abused every opportunity to prey upon her heartsickness: he cunningly dropped cruel remarks to oppress her, simply to inflict hurt to amuse his own malice, but also intending to coerce her to cleave to him (as he was busy installing himself alone to occupy the seat of power, to become Saruman's governor in Rohan); base lechery aside, if he (force-) married Eowyn, then privately "did away with" Théoden, he could manufacture his own "legitimate" royal dynasty (before Eomer's banishment, and Théodred's death in battle, the plan would have included their murders, also).

Aragorn's "healing" began long before the Battle of the Pelennor. When his pedigree and knightly prowess had been declared before her, she suddenly perceived an escape from Wormtongue's mean schemes, and concocted a new fantasy of her own, one much more to her liking: Aragorn would marry her, and carry her away from "thatched barns filled with drunken brawlers" to lofty stone towers, libraries filled with deep lore, lush and exotic gardens, paved courtyards with fountains; he would fulfill his destiny to rule as an heroic warrior king, and she would stand at his side as his warrior-queen ... This pleasant dream was dashed to pieces, and Eowyn became Dernhelm, when Aragorn left to take the Paths of the Dead.

Taken by the Black Breath, the completion of her subsequent healing came from one simple revelation: she had been living in a dark, oppressing fantasy, and did not need to any longer; when Aragorn and Eomer called to her, she was reminded that Eomer and Théoden, both, had been restored (to dignity and renown and power), and that she no longer needed to escape the lewd gazes, whimsical cruelty, and clumsy, lecherous gropes of an unwelcome suitor, a petty abuser who had, indeed, been cast out; could she also dare hope to believe that Prince-Charming-Aragorn had indeed survived the paths of the Dead ...? She perceived that she had reason to live, and chose to return to reside among the living, and cast away the dark dreams. When she opened her eyes, she could see Eomer and Aragorn both, and the victory brought by the last heroic charge of Théoden.

Gandalf had perceived much of her anguish, and his words had been meant to help direct her healing and recovery. In The Houses of Healing, Eowyn eventually realized that she does not need to live in the other fantasy, either: the proud, beautiful warrior-princess no longer needed to be rescued from a mean, petty existence, and therefore has no need for any "Prince Charming"; abruptly, Eowyn realized that she was not in-love with Aragorn, and ceased to pine for him.

Wormtongue never poisoned Eowyn, chemically or "magically", in any literal sense: the word is used in the text as metaphor for the psychological abuse Wormtongue inflicted upon her.

HoG

[Radhruin_EU]

Gandalf had perceived much of her anguish, and his words had been meant to help direct her healing and recovery. In The Houses of Healing, Eowyn eventually realized that she does not need to live in the other fantasy, either: the proud, beautiful warrior-princess no longer needed to be rescued from a mean, petty existence, and therefore has no need for any "Prince Charming"; abruptly, Eowyn realized that she was not in-love with Aragorn, and ceased to pine for him.

Not quite; she takes Faramir to be her 'Prince Charming' instead (all but literally, as Aragorn makes him Prince of Ithilien), and so gets to live the high life that way.

[Harper_of_Gondolin]

Not quite; she takes Faramir to be her 'Prince Charming' instead (all but literally, as Aragorn makes him Prince of Ithilien), and so gets to live the high life that way.

You and I could sort-of-argue over this point ... it is my reading of the narrative that, shortly after Eowyn realized she was not in-love with Aragorn, she realized that she rather liked this other, handsome and noble, fellow, Faramir, and perceived that he might provide the better match, anyway: a marriage of compatibility, possibly love, and mutual growth and support, rather than simply an escape from dreary oppression; any 'Prince Charming' factor would be nothing more than icing on the (wedding) cake.

HoG

[Wilros]

I imagine it never occurred to you simply because the notion, as presented in this thread, is not correct: what the text declares has been misinterpreted; false attributions have been ascribed, and metaphors taken literally.

...

Wormtongue never poisoned Eowyn, chemically or "magically", in any literal sense: the word is used in the text as metaphor for the psychological abuse Wormtongue inflicted upon her.

HoG

Yes, that was my understanding from Yamy and from re-reading the text, that Wormtongue afflicted her with words and physcological abuse, not actual poison compounds. But I'll let Yamy speak for his own interpretation.

In any case, thanks for the further exploration of this issue - I have never really identified that strongly with Eowyn and so haven't pondered exactly why she made the choices and actions that she did, but your discussion of her 'fantasies' certainly puts some additional perspective on this.

[YamydeAragon]

Yes, that was my understanding from Yamy and from re-reading the text, that Wormtongue afflicted her with words and physcological abuse, not actual poison compounds. But I'll let Yamy speak for his own interpretation.

In any case, thanks for the further exploration of this issue - I have never really identified that strongly with Eowyn and so haven't pondered exactly why she made the choices and actions that she did, but your discussion of her 'fantasies' certainly puts some additional perspective on this.

I sincerely don't know if Harper have a tendency of twisting or misunderstanding everything i said but Wilros intrepeted it right & if i used the word poison is because the word used in the book. & im repeating what Tolkiens wrote that Gandalf said that happened to Eowyn.

[Harper_of_Gondolin]

Yes, that was my understanding from Yamy and from re-reading the text, that Wormtongue afflicted her with words and physcological abuse, not actual poison compounds. But I'll let Yamy speak for his own interpretation.

In any case, thanks for the further exploration of this issue - I have never really identified that strongly with Eowyn and so haven't pondered exactly why she made the choices and actions that she did, but your discussion of her 'fantasies' certainly puts some additional perspective on this.

To be fair to anyone who interprets the narrative "too literally",

The author never definitively declared these things: one of the markings of a 'capable' author is the use of subtlety; there is reference to Wormtongue's 'glances' (which Eomer confirmed as being unwelcome-enough to provoke his own wrath on his sister's behalf); Eowyn's infatuation with Aragorn fully-manifested itself when the two parted company at Dunharrow (she declared her 'love'), and subsequently 'Dernhelm' appeared; Gandalf 'filled in the blanks' with his words to Aragorn and Eomer (Aragorn confirmed that he knew, and Eomer declared his sudden enlightenment); much subtext is not-written into the account of the relationship that bloomed in the Houses of Healing.

PJ's movies horribly twisted the entire Saruman-Wormtongue-Théoden plot, and Eowyn's depiction became likewise corrupted: I hope to help keep interpretations of the text honest, uncluttered, and unsoiled.

HoG

[Harper_of_Gondolin]

So in 5 years, Grima the Wormtongue almost killed Theoden with his poison & sickened Eowyn as well.

This, and the clarification that followed, strongly implied that Eowyn's sickness had been inflicted upon her by Wormtongue; I clarified that such an interpretation is not correct, that Wormtongue merely abused her already-existing heartsickness.

It is not I who twists, or misunderstands, what is written, by anyone.

HoG

[YamydeAragon]

To be fair...to literally"...PJ's movies horribly twisted...unsoiled...HoG

I know you hate Peter Jackson with pasion but this is neither a thread about him nor anyone mentioned any movie until now but you. We are talking about Wormtongue influence, based on Tolkien's books, on this thread.

[Radhruin_EU]

You and I could sort-of-argue over this point ... it is my reading of the narrative that, shortly after Eowyn realized she was not in-love with Aragorn, she realized that she rather liked this other, handsome and noble, fellow, Faramir, and perceived that he might provide the better match, anyway: a marriage of compatibility, possibly love, and mutual growth and support, rather than simply an escape from dreary oppression; any 'Prince Charming' factor would be nothing more than icing on the (wedding) cake.

But he is. nonetheless, in effect much the same escape from her former existence in Rohan and he's noble enough to be kingly by any normal standard (since in any other land, a dynasty like the Ruling Stewards would have eventually assumed the throne in the continued absence of the rightful king - as per Boromir's question to his father on the subject). That's one heck of a consolation prize.

[Harper_of_Gondolin]

But he is. nonetheless, in effect much the same escape from her former existence in Rohan and he's noble enough to be kingly by any normal standard (since in any other land, a dynasty like the Ruling Stewards would have eventually assumed the throne in the continued absence of the rightful king - as per Boromir's question to his father on the subject). That's one heck of a consolation prize.

While you say only what is true, we readers should --at this point in the narrative-- begin to evaluate her 'change of heart' in the context --as presented in the narrative-- of Eowyn's changed circumstances: events have fallen-out otherwise than they had threatened to, and Eowyn apprehended this, and adjusted her ambitions accordingly; this is notable because it is presented by the author in a form akin to eucatastrophe, both in the respect of Eowyn recovering from the Black Breath (at all), and of her blossoming romance with Faramir.

She no longer needed to escape from her former life in Rohan: the House of Eorl had been restored, particularly its honour and valour, and Saruman deposed; Rohan would flourish henceforth, if only Sauron could be overthrown.

At some point on the way to these revelations, Eowyn realized --on her own-- that a match with Aragorn would be a poor choice for her, because it would be one-sided: she came to understand that Aragorn was an "impossible man", with whom she could not possibly interact on any kind of equal-footing; she could not "grow with" or "support" such a husband, and would become only a bird in a gilded cage; also, a wife "doomed" to "fail" her husband. We readers can not draw any real-world comparison, because no suitable comparison exists: the author's hints that Aragorn's ancient-and-divine majesty is "too lofty" for Eowyn's reach must suffice; I think the author did achieve this, and eloquently so, but the evidence is largely subtextual.

This part of the eucatastrophe manifests itself in her apprehension that she was not in-love with Aragorn because he was "beyond her": she could not be in-love with him; he would always be "as far above her as the sun", and this status carried with it a measure of incomprehensibility that would preclude any "honest" romance. "Drawing her gaze earthward", she recognized Faramir, and assessed his mettle as a match for her own: no Shieldmaiden-Princess of Eorl's House would ever marry below her station; even so, this new prospect's distant link to that ancient-and-divine majesty would make of him no easy conquest; nevertheless, she looked forward to the challenge.

Even any "gold-digging" suggestions have been deflected by the author: at the time of their budding romance, both Eowyn and Faramir knew that either Aragorn would be King --and Faramir would relinquish rule of Gondor-- or Sauron would triumph, and all destroyed; she has chosen to cleave to a House that would be either dispossessed or destroyed.

HoG

[Radhruin_EU]

While you say only what is true, we readers should --at this point in the narrative-- begin to evaluate her 'change of heart' in the context --as presented in the narrative-- of Eowyn's changed circumstances: events have fallen-out otherwise than they had threatened to, and Eowyn apprehended this, and adjusted her ambitions accordingly; this is notable because it is presented by the author in a form akin to eucatastrophe, both in the respect of Eowyn recovering from the Black Breath (at all), and of her blossoming romance with Faramir.

I don't know about her having 'adjusted her ambitions' - it was more that events had done that for her perforce, having denied her Aragorn's hand and following on from that, her wish to go out in a blaze of glory. So it was more a case of "Dammit, now what?" and just at that moment, she finds there's this rather handsome chap there who just happens to be the second most powerful man in Gondor. She doesn't have to think very hard about it

She no longer needed to escape from her former life in Rohan: the House of Eorl had been restored, particularly its honour and valour, and Saruman deposed; Rohan would flourish henceforth, if only Sauron could be overthrown.

No, I think she did still need to escape her life in Rohan (she'd still have found it stultifying) and Faramir represented just as much an escape from that as Aragorn did, without having to live up to any impossibly lofty ideal. (By the end Tolkien's reduced Aragorn to a kind of symbolic cipher of ideal kingship, so she's far better off out of it).

At some point on the way to these revelations, Eowyn realized --on her own-- that a match with Aragorn would be a poor choice for her, because it would be one-sided: she came to understand that Aragorn was an "impossible man", with whom she could not possibly interact on any kind of equal-footing; she could not "grow with" or "support" such a husband, and would become only a bird in a gilded cage; also, a wife "doomed" to "fail" her husband. We readers can not draw any real-world comparison, because no suitable comparison exists: the author's hints that Aragorn's ancient-and-divine majesty is "too lofty" for Eowyn's reach must suffice; I think the author did achieve this, and eloquently so, but the evidence is largely subtextual.

It's a good deal more straightforward than that. Iluvatar's grand plan required that symbolic marriage between Aragorn and Arwen, so nothing else would do and so Eowyn doesn't stand a chance because fate was taking a hand in events. But yes, if things had turned out diferently and she had married Aragorn she'd simply have swapped one gilded cage for a fancier one. (And a shedload of tedious ritual at court, because you just know it'd be like that).

This part of the eucatastrophe manifests itself in her apprehension that she was not in-love with Aragorn because he was "beyond her": she could not be in-love with him; he would always be "as far above her as the sun", and this status carried with it a measure of incomprehensibility that would preclude any "honest" romance. "Drawing her gaze earthward", she recognized Faramir, and assessed his mettle as a match for her own: no Shieldmaiden-Princess of Eorl's House would ever marry below her station; even so, this new prospect's distant link to that ancient-and-divine majesty would make of him no easy conquest; nevertheless, she looked forward to the challenge.

Challenge? Hardly, Faramir falls for her almost straight away. And technically she does marry below her station, because she's royalty and he isn't.

Even any "gold-digging" suggestions have been deflected by the author: at the time of their budding romance, both Eowyn and Faramir knew that either Aragorn would be King --and Faramir would relinquish rule of Gondor-- or Sauron would triumph, and all destroyed; she has chosen to cleave to a House that would be either dispossessed or destroyed.

Sorry, what? By the time she actually makes that choice, Sauron had (just) fallen and it was the surge of hope they felt at that moment (although they didn't yet know its source) that led them to declare their love.

[Harper_of_Gondolin]

I don't know about her having 'adjusted her ambitions' - it was more that events had done that for her perforce, having denied her Aragorn's hand and following on from that, her wish to go out in a blaze of glory. So it was more a case of "Dammit, now what?" and just at that moment, she finds there's this rather handsome chap there who just happens to be the second most powerful man in Gondor. She doesn't have to think very hard about it

I am sorry, but your timing is a little off: her despair over (losing) Aragorn occurred, abruptly and seemingly-catastrophically (from her perspective), when he declared that he would take the Paths of the Dead; Dernhelm rode from Dunharrow with the purpose of seeking death; at this time, Eowyn has never even heard the name, 'Faramir'. Later, when she recovered from the Black Breath, the 'dark dreams' had all been dispelled: Eomer and Théoden had been restored, and Aragorn was yet alive; she reacted with satisfaction and gladness, also tickled by Merry's unexpected display of valour during her desperate contest with the Witch-King, but she was also quite pensive; everything had changed, and she needed to conduct another reckoning; again, she had not yet met, nor even heard of, Faramir.

No, I think she did still need to escape her life in Rohan (she'd still have found it stultifying) and Faramir represented just as much an escape from that as Aragorn did, without having to live up to any impossibly lofty ideal. (By the end Tolkien's reduced Aragorn to a kind of symbolic cipher of ideal kingship, so she's far better off out of it).

Why do you think she still felt she needed to escape (any) life in Rohan? The "thatched barn" no longer had any "brigands rolling around in the reek"; by all reasonable measures, it no longer even reeked. Eowyn was a proud woman: Shield-Maiden, princess of the House of Eorl, with a lineage that could be traced back to the Rhovanion-Empire of Vidumavi. Other than a high lord of either Gondor or Rohan, who could possibly present a suitable match; chieftain of the Beornings; Brand of Dale; some Dunlending Clan-lord; Barliman Butterbur? Please keep in mind that the Eorlings maintained a rather isolationist point-of-view in many matters: the marriage to Morwen of Lossarnach was exceptional, considered from "both sides of the street".

It's a good deal more straightforward than that. Iluvatar's grand plan required that symbolic marriage between Aragorn and Arwen, so nothing else would do and so Eowyn doesn't stand a chance because fate was taking a hand in events. But yes, if things had turned out diferently and she had married Aragorn she'd simply have swapped one gilded cage for a fancier one. (And a shedload of tedious ritual at court, because you just know it'd be like that)..

Eowyn had never met Arwen, nor any elf save Legolas, and so could not possibly develop any comprehensive assessment of this "rival for Aragorn's affections", nor had Eowyn experienced any kind of 'Joan of Arc' revelation in which Illuvatar appeared to her to declare fate's intentions: at no point in time could it be argued that Eowyn knew that she had no hope in any pursuit of Aragorn; all of those proofs present themselves only after she has desided that 'Aragorn was not for her'. Earlier, I used the term, 'gilded cage', to refer to a pairing with Aragorn, not Faramir: I read from the narrative that the pairing with Faramir is more-equal and, therefore, more-enriching.

Challenge? Hardly, Faramir falls for her almost straight away. And technically she does marry below her station, because she's royalty and he isn't..

The ensuing lifetime together would provide the challenges: she would have to keep up with him, and he with her. BTW, Faramir was "more-royal" than Eowyn could ever possibly even conceive (though she detects the "aura of Numenor"): the House of Hurin was High-Numenorean.

Sorry, what? By the time she actually makes that choice, Sauron had (just) fallen and it was the surge of hope they felt at that moment (although they didn't yet know its source) that led them to declare their love.

She does not know that Sauron has been defeated. In any event, the surge of hope urges her only to consummate a choice already made.

HoG

[Nymphonic]

Wow, I never picked that up about Eowyn. No matter how much I read these books I see something in these forums that I totally missed.

[wannabe_falconer]

I hate it when arguments go on for so long that I can't remember how it began. But, here's what I got out of the book: Eowyn is upset with life in Rohan in general, even at the best of times (everyone smells like horses, and while it's not entirely in Beowulf territory, it's not exactly the best place in middle earth either), and Wormtongue does his very best to prey on this (which isn't very hard). Bear in mind, his ultimate objective is to get her to marry him, cause he's a lusty mofo. To that end, he tries to offer her a way out, by joining the new world order with him. Maybe Isengard isn't the kind of high tower she'd like to live in, but eventually she'll take it even if it means having to put up with Wormtongue. Her primary motivation is a desire for something better than what she has (even though it's not exactly horrible). When Aragorn comes along she immediately goes after him because he's a better ticket out (one that doesn't just want her for her body(although he doesn't want her at all, but she doesn't know this)). Aragorn going to the paths of the dead isn't what sets her off either, she'd been rejected already, and there goes her ticket out of horsieville (even the odious Wormtongue isn't an option at this point). So, rather than live life in a thatched cage, she goes off to war, hoping to die, because life back in Rohan would be even worse. This puts her in prime position to kill the witch king (the fear the nazgul give off (all fear really) is tied to self preservation instinct, which she's just thrown away). This done, she now needs to recover, and she does so, but she's still emotionally hurt. She's not any better off. She'll have to return to Rohan and put up with all the stuff she detests back there (again, she wants more than Rohan, regardless of what state it's in, honor restored or not). I believe it's even implied (like 90% sure) that she's downright suicidal (like, actual suicide suicidal), and she's going to off herself if a convenient solution doesn't present itself. This is where she meets her final ticket out, and one that's far more accessible. He's a nice guy, he isn't already taken by an elf rivaled only by Luthien in beauty, and most importantly, he's got that lore/Numenorean blood/higher than Rohan stuff that she wants. Let's not throw out spur of the moment decisions out the window either: it's not as if it doesn't happen in real life. I'd say they're roughly on equal footing, especially because of her celebrity status as the shield maiden who killed the witch king. I would like to clarify that while she was selfish in her love for Aragorn, she was less so in her love for Faramir: he wasn't just a ticket to escape from Rohan, but the thing she wanted to escape to. Sorry for the wall of text, just wanted to contribute my two cents. Feel free to pick apart as you please.

[Laire]

Can't you folks agree to disagree without making accusations at one another? I have no idea how it started, who started it, or what the overall purpose of it is, but mayhap it would just be better to /ignore each other at this point and find other Tolkien scholarly sorts whom which you can have a bit more of a civil discourse? I do not think either of you is going to get the other to say 'you're right' sincerely. I am sure both of you have valid reasonings in your mind to justify your positions too, this just seems to be more insults than Tolkien discussion at this point right now...