Player Guide: Class Changes Summary: Warden

[Someguyinatux]

I don't play a warden. My friend who was beta testing with me who has played a warden as her main since Moria said she's not playing him through the game anymore and moving back to her original main in SoA, the hunter.

So, take that as you will.

I really don't think one less warden is gonna matter to them...

[Darlgon]

I really don't think one less warden is gonna matter to them...

Not sure if it would matter if ALL old-time wardens (or other classes) quit. They seem to be betting on replacements.

[Dradous]

Main points of contention amongst BETA testers with what we've seen thus far with the warden.

Tanking:
You will no longer be able to keep up all of your buffs and HoTs, or even close to it. 4 and 5 length buffing gambits (the new finishers) last 12 seconds, or 22s if you have the shield/fist duration legacies. Each of your block, evade, mit/crit D buffs are completely separate from each other. These last 20 seconds each (30 with the shield/fist duration legacies). Using persevere gives a small block bonus for 20 seconds, and applying safeguard after this gives a separate buff and the persevere buff remains unaltered. The values of these buffs currently also means that at 85, with every buff that grants block active, your block rating will be lower after helms deep than right now. Considering the sheer volume of gambits that provide these buffs, it will be impossible to keep more than 2/3rds of them active at a time even with no consideration given to threat or DPS.

No more threat leaches (DoW, Conviction, Aggression)

No more non-DPS forms of threat (Resounding Challenge, Call to Battle), which is especially irksome, since Guardians after initially losing shield taunt, had it returned to them as their Dev citing the importance of having access to a non-damage source of threat.

Lack of choice in skills to use in AoE tanking situations. Some have likely done more tanking than me, but AoE situations pretty much require 1 EoB and then spamming Resolution for your threat needs.

Threat matches. Wardens have a single threat copy skill, which is also their most powerful self-buffing skill Defiant Challenge. Changes to the threat system are supposedly going to require more use of threat copy skills, and having our only source of a threat copy on a skill that is extremely important for an entirely seperate use is frustrating. Also, the threat copy on DC is very unreliable, it frequently does not hit enemies theoretically in range, has a relatively small max targets number, and when the max has been reached, you have no way of ensuring the target you have selected will actually be hit with the threat catch up.

The Capstone for the Blue line is absolutely horrendous and probably not even worth investing the single point required to unlock it. This is supposed to be the signature skill or ability of the line, and its a waste.

Dead on.

Additionally the power drain is such that requires you to constantly build DarkDeforeTheDawn (and pot) which makes keeping up your buffs and heals so much more difficult. And, its not fun as you end up with little improvisational outlets and more rigid rotations with little room for error.

The Class design for the "determination tree" needs to be brought back for a serious design review imo. They have to review the design goals as they stand now and determine whether or not they are accomplished or could be by this build. I feel that patching a system that was build for the use of clickies (finishers were clickies in the original build) is not a sound idea, especially so early in the class redesign. We do not want to end up with another redesign later down the road.

Additionally, there should be some communication between the "tanking" class devs (Guard, Warden, Champ and Captain). It is evident from this build that each class was build and modified in a vacuum.

[furtim]

IMO, the devs for Warden, Champ, and Cappy were all reading the right memo. No idea what memo Verizal read, but he went way overboard on the Guardians, at least in terms of ignoring the design goals for the threat revamp.

[thunderchickn]

IMO, the devs for Warden, Champ, and Cappy were all reading the right memo. No idea what memo Verizal read, but he went way overboard on the Guardians, at least in terms of ignoring the design goals for the threat revamp.

This looks to me the most like what must have happened. Better question is who approved it?

[Mysterion]

This looks to me the most like what must have happened. Better question is who approved it?

I think we can all agree that Guardian should be left alone.

[Jason111]

Updating LOTRO now, hopefully Warden isn't as bad as people say.... Hopefully.

[Higenetc]

Just ran a couple of school runs, and confused to say the least. Couldn't get aggro when I was trying, and wasn't losing when I thought I should be.

Seems with a mutliple mob environment, the hardest thing is to try and hit them all in turn and keep swapping targets so you're maintaining dps on all mobs. First bit of SG is a good example to try.

I was managing to hold aggro by auto-attacking and/or wall of steel, against one of our highest might champs in the kin.

So far, not keen.....

[Erlric]

Does anyone else feel like there was no lubrication?
I can honestly say that I am depressed.... How sad is that..
Its like someone I loved, died today

[GoldSight]

I've got to be honest, I quit Warden after RoI and when I came to try again gambits had all different effects in each stance and I couldn't get into it at all.

Now I'm back in and tearing through things like I (dimly) remember before RoI, the pit of iron was killing me over and over before but now it just works. Rip down a single pull, then pull half a dozen for fun and wear them down with leeches.

The maths and all that you're saying about aggro and grouping all makes sense, and I can see by glancing at the trait tree it still needs work. I hope everything gets fixed as eventually I'll get up to 95 and need group stuff again. But for me, right now, this is better than I had hoped.

[thunderchickn]

I will say the way NS and Forced March work now are great quality of life improvements. Also means you'll likely get 2 NS when you need it.

[Ballaorf]

Okay, I just got to play around with the class changes for the first time. There are some bugs to work out (like the Gambit staying up after combat and just general gambit use in the new big battles - very unreliable), but, overall, I don't see the big deal. Honestly, at the risk of saying something really unpopular, it seems to me that the folks who are upset are upset because we were kind of OP and now we're not as OP or because there is a class that tanks better than us or a class that can juggle more targets than us.

I tanked a signature (or was it elite signature?) three levels above me tonight and I don't think I even needed the HoT I triggered; I didn't drop below 75%. I tanked three mobs on level and, with a T2 HoT up, I never dropped below 95% hp. I tanked a normal mob 5 levels above me (plus an add at the beginning) and didn't need to heal. This was ALL done in Recklessness, not Determination (though both of my specs are somewhat hybrid). I imagine this will get even better once the duration of buffs is raised next patch.

Maybe they just don't want us tanking or pulling 15 mobs at once Though, from what I've seen, you can probably still do that solo, even if you can't hold aggro on all 15 in a group. Maybe we just need a little bit of practice.

The folks who are unhappy, do you consider yourself a powergamer? I wonder if that's not part of it.

[Nimrinoth]

Sparred an LM today and noticed DC wasn't giving the mitigation buff when used on his pet zerg. Also isn't working when used on creeps. Not sure if this is a bug or not but it seems silly that the skill doesn't work in pvp, especially given that most creeps ignore mitigations anyway.

[Giliodor]

I think we can all agree that Guardian should be left alone.

Alert, guardian fanboi spotted

[thunderchickn]

Sparred an LM today and noticed DC wasn't giving the mitigation buff when used on his pet zerg. Also isn't working when used on creeps. Not sure if this is a bug or not but it seems silly that the skill doesn't work in pvp, especially given that most creeps ignore mitigations anyway.

I believe the mitigation buff is tied to a trait, not default. Which sort of sucks. A lot. I hope this is just an oversight, as the baseline version of the skill has NONE. If we're getting bonus mitigation from AOE mobs I can understand lowering the base amount to maybe +20% or something, but 0 makes it a pretty weak skill.

[Mysterion]

Alert, guardian fanboi spotted

Thank you captain obvious. Fanboi might be a little overzealous though. I play a guardian is more accurate.

[Marancil]

I shall freely admit I have little clue about the tables and info you guys post, but from my humble perspective, and the one of my Warden Sturmdrang, it seems easier to handle Gambits (not good at it yet) and for a lvl 30 Warden running around in Lone-Lands and North Downs I am so far happy with the changes I have noticed.

[PulseDiver2]

For the Free People buff for fellowship is rating or % ?

[Willim]

I just logged in for half an hour, but noticed that my level 46 Warden now has access to all of the gambits. Are the gambits not level-gated anymore?

[Darlgon]

I just logged in for half an hour, but noticed that my level 46 Warden now has access to all of the gambits. Are the gambits not level-gated anymore?

Level 1 has access to all three builders, but that wont affect your 46.. the actual gambits.. LORD.. trying to chart that is a mess, but yes, some gambits only become avail when you hit a certain level. Just dont expect the order you get them to make sense any more. You get the 5 builder ones at 21 and the 4 builder ones at 60.

[party-4-life]

so what is the role of a warden in a group now? no threat so no tanking, dps worst than all classes so not dps. so whats their role?

[Nimrinoth]

I believe the mitigation buff is tied to a trait, not default. Which sort of sucks. A lot. I hope this is just an oversight, as the baseline version of the skill has NONE. If we're getting bonus mitigation from AOE mobs I can understand lowering the base amount to maybe +20% or something, but 0 makes it a pretty weak skill.

Yeah i had the trait, and legacy, for the mitigation buff but the game seems very selective on what gives you the buff.

[Redit]

There are some bugs to work out (like the Gambit staying up after combat and just general gambit use in the new big battles - very unreliable),

the gambit staying up after combat was intentional so when we bounce around in and out of combat in epic battles we can at least get a gambit off.

[thunderchickn]

At least buff durations in 12.1 are coming sooner rather than later. As per Sapience in an unrelated thread...

This is being addressed in Update 12.1. Before you ask, think in terms of weeks not months.

[Mysterion]

At least buff durations in 12.1 are coming sooner rather than later. As per Sapience in an unrelated thread...

What's more promising is that it is 12.1 and not 12.5 which is what I thought was being thrown around in beta as timeframe for warden fixes.