Player Guide: Class Changes Summary: Champion

[evguenil]

Turbine, you have done it again, yay! You have gone and fixed things that were not broken...and instead of fixing what was broken,

I'm still waiting till my LOTRO has been updated with new HD expansion, but some super-fast guys already know everything.
Or do they just want us to believe that they know everything?

[Andthelion]

I'm still waiting till my LOTRO has been updated with new HD expansion, but some super-fast guys already know everything.
Or do they just want us to believe that they know everything?

or maybe they were in beta, and know that the player made class guides that sapience put in the release notes, were released a week before hd beta ended, so what we saw when those guides were made is exactly what went live.

[evguenil]

or maybe they were in beta, and know that the player made class guides that sapience put in the release notes, were released a week before hd beta ended, so what we saw when those guides were made is exactly what went live.

but of course, and those guys don't even bother to add something like "in my humble opinion". They definitely know everything and they can teach anyone personally or on a company level.

Going to to the topic though. Still 1% till my LOTRO update is done.

[knUk20]

I do have a question on the new trait trees - apologize if I've missed this somewhere earlier. The berserker line looks like it requires 1 trait point to up each level for each trait. The marital champion and deadly storm lines require 2 points for each level for each trait. Is there a reason for that? Looks like I can just barely max out everything on the berserker line, are you not supposed to be able to max everything out on the other two then?

EDIT: Nevermind, stupid question. I had selected the berserker line as the specialization, thus the other two cost more. Derp.

[warriorpoetex]

Turbine, you have done it again, yay! You have gone and fixed things that were not broken...and instead of fixing what was broken, you just change things up to make it look like you did something for this release.

Champions are supposedly Berserkers first and foremost. This, in every other MMO I have played, is a heavy class (armor) with high morale and mits and medium-high DPS. in SoA we were pretty close to that. Then they took away our morale and mits and gave us bubbles and I'm constantly using these bubbles, bracing attack and as a last resort Dire Need (this in the moors, PvE content has just gotten ridiculously easy). Survivability depended upon the bubble and Sprint pretty much. Champs are/were squishy. Now we are going to be squishy in PvE and PvMP, *sigh*. There have always been changes, and everyone has something to QQ about, but I've been playing this class almost since launch; there was no need for these drastic changes. Now it's more like a medium armor semi-ok DPS class; what is that? Maybe I'll see the Freeps on Vilya on my Creep.

Did fine w/o bubbles from SoA until RoI. Champions have ALWAYS been #1 in DPS for the game ... right now, we are not ... but that may change back. We lost bubbles and Dire Need for Red/Yellow specs, but we can fully parry and evade. We also have the heals on defeat ... far as PvMP goes, try Martial Champion ... see how that works out.

Champion's did not start squishy, that came with Mirkwood Xpac honestly; worsened with RoI with its dependence on bubbles and Dire Need. Despite the fixes needed for our DPS, our survivability from sustained damage is MUCH higher than before. It is the big, burst OH CRUD damage that is the biggest problem right now for our DPS specs. Now if our DPS gets back where it is supposed to be, plus the parry and evade ... I can live with the fact a massive burst blast or so will cause us issues.

[Pumpus_Maximus]

Guys is it a bug or unneeded change that "new" Bracing attack doesn't include "Will heal even if attack is evaded" ? I mean seriously that's pretty insane to loose a lvl80 skill upgrade ...

[mrfigglesworth]

my initial reaction to fervor champ: definitely great ST dps.

my initial reaction to deadly storm champ: definitely great AOE dps.


I have zero doubt I could get over 4k dps if I used fervor pot and baingrist over the course of 2 minutes. We've got nothing to complain about other than maybe other classes being even more OP than we are.


In terms of ardour champ....

THANK YOU JINJAAH for the +10% great cleave duration legacy on top of fixing the raging blades damage trait. We truly are a deadly storm.

[DRNA]

As I see it, the forums are supposed to be in addition to the game not as any kind of substitute to it.
I signed in and at least 15 skills, etc., are missing.
Gone.
No tutorial of any kind.
Boo.
Anyway, I'm so aggravated right now, I logged in, toyed around a bit, and logged out.
When I do log back in again I just might have to start a new character in the hopes of relearning the class.

[Castorix]

Hello,

I noticed that the CD for exalted combatant (blue tree) is not displayed anymore on the icon
It is not handy because we don't know if it will be triggered when morale is near 20%

[Behemoth4015]

Does anyone have a link to the requirements for the new class deeds? Specifically, I see that I need to complete a deed called "clobbered" to finish one of the meta "tier" deeds. However, I do not have a deed called clobbered on my list.

In contrast, I have a different tier deed that needs the old ebbing ire deed completed. I was granted the new version of the ebbing ire deed - which now allows you to use battle frenzy or second wind to complete it.

As far as I can remember I completed every class deed except the ebbing ire deed before the update.

[Senuel]

After playing around with my various alts and my son with his guardian, I finally get it. Guardians have always had soooo much trouble trying to solo those signature and elite bosses, so they get our bubble skills and those poor wardens, who have always been bad trying to manage multiple opponents get the melee AoE skills we can no longer use in our straight DPS mode. (close sarcasm tag)

When I first started playing LOTRO, right after the game went Free to Play, Champion was my very first class to try. I know that melee DD fighters tend to be the base class, neither the DPS of the power hitters like archers or magic users, nor the defense and HP of the tanks, but good for soloing. And the champ had stats for damage and defense, dual weapons (I like dual weapon wielding), heavy armor, and very much in-lore. I play mostly solo, and I died and awful lot. I thought it was normal, meant the game was challenging instead of a cake walk. I found that, as a champ, you could often manage two or three monsters with your area-effect skills. But you had to be careful with your potions, and usually be fortified with food and scrolls to take on a single "signature" monster. If you drew even a single add, you had to bail and run away. "Elite" monsters were only kill-able if you had help.

Then I saw other classes playing. As a level thirty-something noob in the trollshaws I saw hunters (lower moral, only medium armor) soloing elite trolls that were suicidal for me to take on even when I had a three or four level advantage. My son's guardian could solo elite trolls and giants that were four or five levels higher than he was. Oh, it took him ten minutes of fighting, but he survived. That's when I learned that dieing an awful lot was only normal for Champions. Classes supposedly squishier than champs (like hunters and rune keepers) could out damage mobs, and keep their distance to avoid damage. Classes harder than champs like wardens, captains, and guardians had either the hit points, defenses, or self heals that let them out last opponents even if their DPS wasn't as high (and, back then, wardens weren't all that far behind champs in the DPS department and waaaaaaay ahead in the survivability department - proof that heavy armor doesn't actually protect you all that well). When I first started playing a warden, one of my first thoughts was they played a lot like I thought the champ was supposed to play. But champs had neither the defense/moral to take the hits their melee style required them to take nor the DPS to hurt boss type monsters faster than they hurt you back.

That changed with the class revamp that came out with Rise of Isengard. It seemed like someone somewhere had listened to the complaints of champs that we were too squishy to be a melee damage dealer. A few new skills and tweaks gave champs a high enough DPS to out damage signature monsters (who usually had similar HP to champs), but the bubble skills especially and legacy cooldowns on Dire Need meant you could actually absorb some hits. Suddenly, I could stand toe to toe with elite monsters and survive. I could go into zones replete with signature trolls or drakes and, some with care, get my dozen troll's feet or drake teeth and not die at all, just like I saw, and played, other classes could.

Now, I must confess, I feel a bit like the rug has been pulled out from under me. I hope the parry and evade that have finally been granted to us (what is dual wielding for, if not to allow one to parry and strike simultaneously) will make up some of the difference that losing our bubble skills gave us. I'm still experimenting with the moral-boost-upon-victory to see if it will make up for losing dire need. I'm not totally discouraged. What irks, though, is that Guardians now have the bubble skill (as if they needed more survivability) and wardens now have AoE skills, even as the new trait tree system walls them off from our skill bars (again making the warden play like the class I expected the champion to play like).

It makes one wonder if the base class is something too average. Instead of a class that's got more defense and survivability than the high damage classes like hunters or rune keepers and more damage output than the tankier classes like wardens and guardians, you have a class that's just doesn't have enough DPS to really be called a damage dealer and far too little defense to be called a bruiser or tank.

[Eliahnus]

As far as I can remember I completed every class deed except the ebbing ire deed before the update.

Same as me. I'm not gaming right now, but if I remember correctly from yesterday you need to complete the class deed in which you have the choice to use Ebbing Ire, and/or Second Wind and/or Battle Frenzy.
Second Wind can only be used in combat, but Battle Frenzy can be used out of combat, so this deed is an easy one.

[Castorix]

What irks, though, is that Guardians now have the bubble skill (as if they needed more survivability) and wardens now have AoE skills, even as the new trait tree system walls them off from our skill bars (again making the warden play like the class I expected the champion to play like).
...
you have a class that's just doesn't have enough DPS to really be called a damage dealer and far too little defense to be called a bruiser or tank.

I have a 85 Guardian and a 85 Champ (main)
The survivability of Guardian was largely < Champ survivability (lack of self-healing)

I tested today the 2 classes and everything is fine : the Guardian has better self-healing and my Champ did not change a lot even without the "big bubble" : I could solo a 6-man (GB, the Maze) as easily as before (and I did it at 86 while I was 85)

[J_Howell]

First impression - blue champ is functional but boring.

Fights tend to just be riposte spam interspersed with any survival skills you might need at the time. Of course I picked up brutal from red and raging blades from yellow (not sure that was worth it - it's notably weaker than our old shing-shing) but riposte does far more damage, and doesn't eat fervour you might need for bracing, now that bracing costs fervour even in blue line.

My primary annoyance with our new class is that hedge is gone (I was a big fan of perma-hedge in blue line), and blood rage has a 1m cooldown. I'd rather have the old blood rage, including morale cost, than have to sit through stuns like a lesser class when facing stun-happy bosses. And of course disarms are always a big deal for a class as heavily weapon-oriented as champs, that's why we had hedge in the first place! Very disappointed on that one.

I guess it's to be expected that gameplay becomes less interesting when we lose so many of our skills.

[Behemoth4015]

@Eliahnus

I agree, that deed ("At the ready"), will be easy to be complete. My real problem, is that I need to complete another deed "clobbered" to finish one of the tiered metadeeds. BUT there is no "clobbered" deed on my list.

Bugged? Just me?

Does someone have "clobbered" on their list who could tell me what is required to complete this deed?

[Anreon]

It`s not the loss of survivability skills but the gap between our DPS and the the ones of Rk`s, Hunter`s, ... hell even Minstrel`s, Captain`s and Guardian`s
that frustrates me.

Very good damage balancing!

Well done Turbine.

[MikeA]

We got a small DPS increase in the live build vs the last beta build, but it doesn't look nearly large enough in Red spec. Yellow was actually improved more than Red (mostly from Improved Raging Blade working), and now gives me 10% or more greater single target DPS than Red (and that is without any of the new AOE Rune legacies). One of the things we where supposed to get was a faster Ferocious Strikes, and while the animation is faster, the actual skill execution time is no better (I used Logstamper to determine this), I am still waiting forever for the next skill to go off, this makes the faster animation a useless change. The bonus per pip was increased to +5%, but it is still only effecting the first strike, so is of limited value. The Red line really needs what Yellow has the +30% bonus to all skills, the fact is the Blade skills now totally blow the Strike skills out of the water in damage done, and Yellow lines single target DPS is only limited to the advantage it has by the much longer cooldowns of its skills.

[TKRain]

It`s not the loss of survivability skills but the gap between our DPS and the the ones of Rk`s, Hunter`s, ... hell even Minstrel`s, Captain`s and Guardian`s
that frustrates me.

I logged my Champion I last night and was frustrated as well. I guess I'll go with the AOE tree, not sure...../sigh

[Hendakk]

After playing around with my various alts and my son with his guardian, I finally get it. Guardians have always had soooo much trouble trying to solo those signature and elite bosses, so they get our bubble skills and those poor wardens, who have always been bad trying to manage multiple opponents get the melee AoE skills we can no longer use in our straight DPS mode. (close sarcasm tag)

When I first started playing LOTRO, right after the game went Free to Play, Champion was my very first class to try. I know that melee DD fighters tend to be the base class, neither the DPS of the power hitters like archers or magic users, nor the defense and HP of the tanks, but good for soloing. And the champ had stats for damage and defense, dual weapons (I like dual weapon wielding), heavy armor, and very much in-lore. I play mostly solo, and I died and awful lot. I thought it was normal, meant the game was challenging instead of a cake walk. I found that, as a champ, you could often manage two or three monsters with your area-effect skills. But you had to be careful with your potions, and usually be fortified with food and scrolls to take on a single "signature" monster. If you drew even a single add, you had to bail and run away. "Elite" monsters were only kill-able if you had help.

Then I saw other classes playing. As a level thirty-something noob in the trollshaws I saw hunters (lower moral, only medium armor) soloing elite trolls that were suicidal for me to take on even when I had a three or four level advantage. My son's guardian could solo elite trolls and giants that were four or five levels higher than he was. Oh, it took him ten minutes of fighting, but he survived. That's when I learned that dieing an awful lot was only normal for Champions. Classes supposedly squishier than champs (like hunters and rune keepers) could out damage mobs, and keep their distance to avoid damage. Classes harder than champs like wardens, captains, and guardians had either the hit points, defenses, or self heals that let them out last opponents even if their DPS wasn't as high (and, back then, wardens weren't all that far behind champs in the DPS department and waaaaaaay ahead in the survivability department - proof that heavy armor doesn't actually protect you all that well). When I first started playing a warden, one of my first thoughts was they played a lot like I thought the champ was supposed to play. But champs had neither the defense/moral to take the hits their melee style required them to take nor the DPS to hurt boss type monsters faster than they hurt you back.

That changed with the class revamp that came out with Rise of Isengard. It seemed like someone somewhere had listened to the complaints of champs that we were too squishy to be a melee damage dealer. A few new skills and tweaks gave champs a high enough DPS to out damage signature monsters (who usually had similar HP to champs), but the bubble skills especially and legacy cooldowns on Dire Need meant you could actually absorb some hits. Suddenly, I could stand toe to toe with elite monsters and survive. I could go into zones replete with signature trolls or drakes and, some with care, get my dozen troll's feet or drake teeth and not die at all, just like I saw, and played, other classes could.

Now, I must confess, I feel a bit like the rug has been pulled out from under me. I hope the parry and evade that have finally been granted to us (what is dual wielding for, if not to allow one to parry and strike simultaneously) will make up some of the difference that losing our bubble skills gave us. I'm still experimenting with the moral-boost-upon-victory to see if it will make up for losing dire need. I'm not totally discouraged. What irks, though, is that Guardians now have the bubble skill (as if they needed more survivability) and wardens now have AoE skills, even as the new trait tree system walls them off from our skill bars (again making the warden play like the class I expected the champion to play like).

It makes one wonder if the base class is something too average. Instead of a class that's got more defense and survivability than the high damage classes like hunters or rune keepers and more damage output than the tankier classes like wardens and guardians, you have a class that's just doesn't have enough DPS to really be called a damage dealer and far too little defense to be called a bruiser or tank.

Excellent and cant help but agree.

Regardless of DPS changes, survivability now just seems really rough even with the "auto heals on defeat" so to speak. No bubbles are bad enough but combined with the old Dire Need "big heal" gone, the devs took a saw and hammer to the class; instead of some minor surgery we got a transplant . Time will tell how these changes pan out I suppose.


But the one thing that is really driving me nuts is the fact Hotbar's will not save if you swap between specs.

One would think if it was possible for this feature to actually work, it would have been implemented by now. So it has to be safe to assume it's technically just not possible. Right?

No way I can see myself resetting all my skills and drag and dropping them where "they should be" each and every time.

Sad.

[mrfigglesworth]

Excellent and cant help but agree.

Regardless of DPS changes, survivability now just seems really rough even with the "auto heals on defeat" so to speak. No bubbles are bad enough but combined with the old Dire Need "big heal" gone, the devs took a saw and hammer to the class; instead of some minor surgery we got a transplant . Time will tell how these changes pan out I suppose.


But the one thing that is really driving me nuts is the fact Hotbar's will not save if you swap between specs.

One would think if it was possible for this feature to actually work, it would have been implemented by now. So it has to be safe to assume it's technically just not possible. Right?

No way I can see myself resetting all my skills and drag and dropping them where "they should be" each and every time.

Sad.

You can set up your slots to almost never move no matter what setup you're in by doing these things:
1) Put all the general skills you have down first where you want them. These will stay in the exact same spot no matter which spec you will be in.

2) choose a spec and spend your points. The skills you receive from the tree/trees will be scattered. Place those skills in any empty spaces not filled by general skills.

3) choose a different spec and spend your points. The skills you had from your previous spec which you didn't spend points for this time will be gone leaving holes. The new skills you gained will be scattered so place those new skills in the empty spaces left from your old spec.

4) Repeat step 3 with any other specs you choose.


This isn't perfect and sometimes you will have to make a change or two based on skill upgrades, blended specs, etc, but I set up my skill bar once for all three specs and haven't had to change a single skill once, no matter which spec I choose. So it's possible. And I'm really appreciating having only 20-30 skills on my bars. It's much nicer.

[Caelthor]

This will take some getting used to - I traited AoE before HD and after, and I've noticed that I am a LOT more squishy - but at the same time, I can kill groups a lot more quickly. The problem is, I have to kill them before they kill me - without dire need and the shield bubble, I can only take on around 5 on or just below level enemies as opposed to 6-8 before. That being said, it takes me at least half the time to kill the group of 3-5 as it did previously, so...

[Seshio]

Go yellow line. It's insane now if you play it correctly. Jumped in School last night solo and did the entire instance in 4 pulls. The last room of trash with the burning books is the only possible rough part if you get chain disarmed. No kiting is necessary just LOS and go blender mode around the corner. The chance to heal on blade skills, bracing attack and fight on is all you'll need. Champ survivability is fine right now. Just have to adjust your play style.

[Redit]

but of course, and those guys don't even bother to add something like "in my humble opinion". They definitely know everything and they can teach anyone personally or on a company level.

Our class guides are not our opinion they are facts. actual changes that they made to each class and was supported by sapience. we never said "skill X is better now" or "class X in trait line Y is better than it ever was". we simply said "a number has increased", "you have these skills available", "these are the skills that are gone".

we made these as objective as possible.

As I see it, the forums are supposed to be in addition to the game not as any kind of substitute to it.
I signed in and at least 15 skills, etc., have gone missing.
Gone.
No tutorial of any kind.
And the 50 'points' ..what happens when you spend them.. you have to purchase Mithril Coins to get more?
Boo.
Anyway, I'm so aggravated right now, I logged in, toyed around a bit, and logged out.
When I do log back in again I just might have to start a new character in the hopes of relearning the class.

there is not a single class that lost 15 skills, champs lost 8 skills however 2 of those skills are applied differently, (flurry being proced, acuity combining with great cleave) and 3 of them are stances. the rest are still there but they are gated behind the trees. you must use trait points or spec in a tree to obtain them.

you can't spend mithril coins to get more trait points. you have a max of 60 points at 95 plus maybe another 5 points from quests in helm's deep but I haven't seen it yet so I can't confirm it. though some have said they got a point from a quest.

when you spend those points you get passive traits and skills.

Hello,

I noticed that the CD for exalted combatant (blue tree) is not displayed anymore on the icon
It is not handy because we don't know if it will be triggered when morale is near 20%

Exalted combatant never has a cooldown, it will trigger once per combat. you want to use it again? leave combat. You just have to keep track of your morale and make a note that it triggered when you get a bump in morale.

Does anyone have a link to the requirements for the new class deeds? Specifically, I see that I need to complete a deed called "clobbered" to finish one of the meta "tier" deeds. However, I do not have a deed called clobbered on my list.

clobbered is a deed that we have ALWAYS had. there is a skill called clobber you must use that skill at least once (maybe after a certain level) to be granted the deed.

In contrast, I have a different tier deed that needs the old ebbing ire deed completed. I was granted the new version of the ebbing ire deed - which now allows you to use battle frenzy or second wind to complete it.

As far as I can remember I completed every class deed except the ebbing ire deed before the update.

Same as me. I'm not gaming right now, but if I remember correctly from yesterday you need to complete the class deed in which you have the choice to use Ebbing Ire, and/or Second Wind and/or Battle Frenzy.
Second Wind can only be used in combat, but Battle Frenzy can be used out of combat, so this deed is an easy one.

ebbing ire, battle frenzy, and second wind are all skills that can be acquired very early in the trees, I got all three of them and went into battle with a training dummy and used them and completed the deed in one day.

all the new meta deeds include deeds that we have always had. the meta deed grants the trait point, the deed itself gives turbine points.

[mrfigglesworth]

Redit we have a legacy that improves our great cleave by 10 seconds. I believe it's class minor legacy. I think it replaces your "fight on duration" legacy. can't be 100% sure though.

And yeah, deadly storm is beast. In one instance I killed about 10+ 15k mobs in about 8 seconds doing 15k dps :P.

[Vodomir]

I think it replaces your "fight on duration" legacy. can't be 100% sure though.

It replaced the Battle Acuity duration legacy.