Official Discussion: Helm's Deep NDA Drop.

[Sapience]

Feel free to discuss the Helm's Deep NDA drop here.

[jmariner]

It's going to be very different it seems. But I really like the changes and think it is a beautiful update to my favorite world...

[Glohir]

Any information about creep changes?

[Bhoris_they_spider]

The dev's promised Helm's Deep will bring 'tough choices' with regards to the class changes... The only choice for many players will be if they keep playing or not, alas I don't think the choice will be all that tough in the end.

[OptimShi]

Class changes are awful. This is now a completely different game than I originally purchased, and not for the better. As Bhoris_they_spider said, the tough choice is whether or not to keep playing.

[Belnavar]

Region, Epic and Quests: Similar to what we've had before. Turbine's world design team have excelled, as usual. It is still Rohan, but unique from East Rohan, with some amazing eye candy (Edoras and Helm's Deep, for example. The pictures don't do either justice).

Epic Battles: Chaotic and fun. They can take some getting used to at first, as you are dropped in the, ahem, "deep" end. The scale is spot on and very impressive.

Class Changes: Big and sweeping, and undoubtedly controversial. The most important thing with these is to give them a chance. They are very different to what we have on live, but the core elements of classes remain intact. Skills may be gated or found on the trees, while others are merged or accessed via procs, etc. After the initial shock wears off, you may find you really like the changes. I know I do. Not only have skills generally been improved, but cooldowns have been mostly decreased across the board. All classes also have a slew of new skills, specific to various trait trees.

-Bel

[Brom_Ironfist]

The dev's promised Helm's Deep will bring 'tough choices' with regards to the class changes... The only choice for many players will be if they keep playing or not, alas I don't think the choice will be all the tough in the end.

Are you speaking as a beta tester? If so, please elaborate.

[Eidigean]

Please say it isn't so.
Please say that hunter's agile rejoinder isn't going away.

I use agile rejoinder as often as possible. This is my primary heal. I have the legacy maxed out on my legendary item; at the cost of several scrolls of empowerment. I use this melee skill just as often as many of my bow skills.

Please bring it back before the end of beta. Don't let this skill go!

[Crell_1]

Epic Battles= Skirmishes 3.0;

All involve daily locks on each quest (the side quests you get inside are random). Random jewelery rewards. No way to earn specific Epic Battles rewards.
While on cooldown all you can get are marks and medallions. You cannot get XP.

[lordmattabir]

Epic Battles= Skirmishes 3.0;

All involve daily locks on each quest (the side quests you get inside are random). Random jewelery rewards. No way to earn specific Epic Battles rewards.
While on cooldown all you can get are marks and medallions. You cannot get XP.

So you cant get exp from Big Battles? Thats a good thing i guess, people were getting worried that low lvls could just lvl off this system.

[Atheling]

mmm. So. Let's say that beta has been turbulent. If you hate the changes being implemented, your views were loudly put out by those who felt similarly. People did their best. The devs have listened. But some things will not change and some of those things are going to be dealbreakers for some players. Likewise, if you love the changes, then there were vocal beta testers always willing to put their views across too. The overwhelming impression I took was of people disengaging from the beta process as time went by. Make of that what you will.

The basic run down for me is that you need to look beyond the trait trees. Those are just pictures. And once you do that you'll see that there's been a huge shift (not a minor one) in some classes. In all classes in some ways. For the bulk of players, how you play will change. These are significant things. Please do try them out if you can, read up on them and be aware of what will be in front of you on release day. My initial reaction was horror. My current reaction is only marginally less strong for some of the classes I play. It's no point heaping abuse on people. Really isn't. The devs must be working 20 hours a day currently trying to hammer things into shape for release day. But I think this change on its own merits isn't a bad one, it's just a wrong one for a game of this age and for the community I associate with within it. I'd define that community as players who play a massively multiplayer online rpg to play with other people and who have invested a lot of time in learning to play their class/es. I once thought it was a fairly large community, but one which is obviously diminishing as time passed with RoR.

Of the three classes I play the most, burglar is the one I'm most content/least concerned about. There have been some good quality of life improvements made. I have niggles and issues but for me it's alright. Not going to say I love it, because I don't. I played a burg for how it was, not how it will be. I wanted a complex support class, I'm not sure that's what is there now. It does improve upon the de facto situation of post-ToO burgs. Swings and roundabouts.

Loremaster was an odd one. It seems like the emphasis has been firmly placed on dps. Whilst I agreed with some changes which will be controversial (SI for one), I'm still deeply saddened to see such a nuanced class reduced to flashy effects and dps counting. The devs did listen to feedback, but it's just confused what I felt was a healthy first attempt to try and recreate the class within the strait jacket of how the trait trees have been implemented. One of those where I disagreed with the feedback acted upon at times only marginally less than the initial changes made. It may be a long process to find some sort of happy medium ground with this class because it's a huge square peg being hammered into a round hole.

For minstrels, I don't know. It's not the class Orion left. For better or worse, that's gone. It feels adequate for dps on landscape but you have concerns about whether that is sufficient for anything else. If anything else is actually ever really required. The replacement for harmony is too odd to try and set down into words. With polish it could well be fine. There's promise there. It's two weeks before release. Blue line healing is healthy. Perhaps overly so. But splitting things out across the three trait trees leaves you missing what isn't there. It's hard logging into live and then into beta.

I mean even something as simple and basic as saving all your skills in each spec in the exact position you placed them in isn't present currently. I'm sure that'll be fixed (if it's possible) but this is two weeks before release date and it's just such an annoyance to have to keep changing where the 'general skills' are each time you switch.

In terms of graphics and landscape content, it is as you'd expect from Turbine.

My personal view of Big Battles is that it will be a struggle to have them tested and bugfixed in time for the scheduled release date. While I appreciate the concepts behind them, I found them unengaging and sterile. It's no fun being on the fringes of the battle. It's no fun being presented with yet another minigame to play and which ignores pretty much everything about my level and class and gear. Micromanaging groups of soldiers to fight on my behalf is not why I play this game. Nor do I wish to grind out a whole new set of skills in order to partake in content which continues to reward via a random number generator. I hate the RNG as a way to offer loot. It does not encourage me to play more. It encourages me to log off and find another game to play. And I know balancing needs to be done, but going afk and still getting rewards in a solo instance just offends me.

So I'm left with a game I loved, a kin I think the world of, a tribe who are just fantastic and the prospect of a second expansion in a row with limited appeal to me. I've not pre-ordered. Not even sure I'll buy.

[Crell_1]

So you cant get exp from Big Battles? Thats a good thing i guess, people were getting worried that low lvls could just lvl off this system.

You can, but it only comes from the QUESTS you complete during big battles, not from the actual mobs themselves.

[Schinderhannes]

Are the Beta Forums now open for people, who could not access them before?

[Peresbert]

Since we are free to discuss BETA now, I'll be happy to provide my input. First thing I noticed when entering the Westemnet was the lack of obscene landscape lag. And the magnificently made landscape is a sight to see. (Always have to start on a positive note).

As far as the class changes go, I have to admit they did a decent job. I enjoyed playing all the classes despite a few key skill bugs which should be fixed by launch. There are a few things I believe need to be fixed though, like the fact the Hunters blue line has too much DPS still.

Now, Big Battles. This may be the breaking point for LotRO. You must complete the Big Battle tutorial. If you do not, you will break your keyboard and rage quit on the spot. They are fun, challenging, and have something for everyone. You can be an Engineer and set up weapons to kill scores of enemies while being able to repair the walls, banners and weapons. You can be an Officer and direct the Rohirrim in battle. You can even be a Vanguard and fight with the Rohirrim to kill anyone who tries to breach the lines. Use all points you get wisely. It will take a few Big Battles before you will get a handle on it and then you shall succeed. And yes, the "Raid" is hard.

You have two weeks to prepare yourselves for the Westemnet. Don't worry about gearing up, the stats take another boom in HD. 4-5k main stat with even "squishy" classes have Vitality that is insane. I am not saying this is good. Every class feels like a mini-tank in HD with proper equipment. Even those with Gold Horselord items, won't be using them for long.

Turbine you have two weeks too. Remember that. The bug reports are higher than I have ever seen them in a successful BETA at this point before launch that I have participated in before (talking mostly about other games). This is not good. My personal opinion is that HD is at least a month away from a successful launch. Any sooner, without miracles occurring, will be a catastrophic failure. Important quests and instances are not sorted out, skill procs still not working properly and even some battle bugs and retuning need to be done and tested in two weeks. This is not looking good for a successful November 18th launch.

(All a short hand look at my opinion about the HD Beta. Been there since B2, and now have been burnt out because I am encountering many of the same issues now as I did then.)

Edit: You do not want to be under level 40 in HD.

[Skigorn]

Are you speaking as a beta tester? If so, please elaborate.

Please say it isn't so.
Please say that hunter's agile rejoinder isn't going away.

I use agile rejoinder as often as possible. This is my primary heal. I have the legacy maxed out on my class item; at the cost of several scrolls of empowerment. I use this melee skill just as often as many of my bow skills.

Please bring it back before the end of beta. Don't let this skill go!

Skills are now locked under trait trees...with 3 trees figure about 1/3 of your skills are locked within each. Pick a tree, now the majority of the skills you have now are locked away.

I can't speak for the last couple of builds because I've already left for another MMO. I'm hoping for some radical changes to this system sometime after go-live since it appears that trees are here for launch. My champ is no longer "my champ". I now have to trait for either single target, or AoE. I can't do both.

[Frieja]

I was/am a beta tester from the first beta. The changes to my main class, Minstrel, have been soul crushing. I did a lot of testing and gave a lot of feedback during Beta #1 (as did many others). Unfortunately, NOTHING had changed for us in Beta #2. Minstrel was generally regarded as the most "alpha state" of all the classes. There have been some slight tweaks and modifications for Minstrels, but I still consider the class severely impaired.

I apologize that my writing is not as effective as it could be. I'm sure you will receive much more eloquent responses with hard facts from other testers. But I wanted to let it be known that I am one of many minstrels who is unhappy with the state of the class. I'll be honest, after participating in Betas #1 and #2, and then reading the patch notes for Beta #3 that still contained no changes for the Minstrel, I just couldn't bring myself to log in anymore - to beta or live game. I don't have the time or energy or interest to take the pile of stink I was presented with and try to make myself enjoy playing with it. I did continue to read the beta forums, however, to see if the Minstrel was improving at all - it wasn't.

I have not/will not pre-order Helm's Deep. This is the first expansion that I haven't pre-ordered. This is not the game I fell in love with 5 years ago. I may eventually purchase the expansion with accrued TP (I'm a Lifer) in order to follow the epic story through to the end, but I will no longer spend real money on this game.

On a more positive note, the world building team has outdone themselves once again. The landscape is beautiful as always.

ETA: For all the Minstrels who do not want to wade through all the pages of this thread to discover some of the disappointments, this quote from chrohandhaivey on page 6 sums it up pretty well (paragraph formatting, mine):

The uncontested loser is the minstrel. (Because this is the class I've spent the most testing time on, and this is the class that looks downright atrocious, I'll give you guys the most input here.) This class hit beta in a disaster state. Seriously... one of those little pecking desktop contraptions that you start and then it pecks could've done a better job than where this class started... or perhaps a monkey on crack jumping up and down on the keyboard (and this is me being incredibly nice and tame about it). Sadly, very little with this class has changed since then. Despite nearly unanimous negative feedback, this class has received no design changes from day one onward (just minor tweaks here and there... for perspective, it's like having a dilapidated house with a crumbling foundation that's about to collapse and saying you're going to make sure the portrait above the mantel is securely fastened).

Rather than leaving a null stance (in addition to War-Speech and Harmony), the old names that Orion created for the 3 stances have been dug out yet again (Resonance, Dissonance, and Melody), creating the 3rd toggleable stance. Just like when Orion tried to make the changes ages ago the feedback has been overwhelmingly negative. The changes are implemented in an incredibly confusing manner, and even the class dev seems confused by the stance purposes and trait-line-alignment... the stance bonuses and skill alterations are jumbled around and not linked properly with the proper stance. I'm not even going to pretend to try to explain things as they are right now, because it's still awful. To Orion's credit he listened to the negative feedback ages ago and dropped the changes (leaving two toggleable stances and a "null" stance, reverting back to the name War-Speech that we'd always known, as we see it now on live).

Unfortunately, no feedback whatsoever has been accepted this time around. In fact, a blatant disregard for feedback on this class has been the hallmark of this beta (it's really sad that with all the positive stuff going on in this xpack and all the many things I've enjoyed, the longest-lasting memory I'll have from my many months of beta will be the "shut up and accept my authority" mentality surrounding this class). One of the previous posters suggested taking a break or playing an alt for a while until after a patch has come out, and I'd honestly (as a primary minstrel) agree. The attitude toward the minstrel right now is "just stick with us because we'll fix issues for the first big 12.1 patch."

Pure healing is insanely OP right now... honestly... I've not let anyone die in beta... and I've been so bored by the healing because I have less to do, not being able to buff anymore other than 1 buff at a time, that I've found myself drifting into watching tv as I'm running content. Damage is the same as always really, a little less on the skill rotations because some skills have been moved and locked into other trait lines (for instance, call of the second age, randomly now locked on healing). Yellow line is same as always not the best design and needs many changes in order to truly be viable as a standalone build.

The number of problems with skills awkwardly being locked into other lines and you having no ability to reach them, incorrect bonuses or skill alterations, issues with stances, loss of hybridization from live, etc., are truly innumerable (yes, right now, currently, two weeks out). And I don't want to skim over that last one in the list there... there is a definite LOSS of hybridization from what we already have. Currently on live, for instance, I can trait 4B/3Y and with proper setup hold 3 anthems up at a time while healing... mid-fight, uh oh, we need a bit extra dps, I'll turn on War-Speech and go through my skill rotation to aid us until I need to drop for healing... we popped a FM, I'll hit Call to the Fellowship to boost the FM...... I've got the ability to hybridize between healing and group utility, I'm not the most maxed out uber-healer, but I'm good enough while having utility.... With the changes, you won't have enough trait points to truly hybridize in a "4/3" ratio/nature in the two lines.

Call to the Fellowship, Call to Greatness, Inspire Fellows, and any other group utility skill is now locked into the yellow tree and most of them are not achievable if you don't select that tree as your base tree (or if you do choose that tree, you lose Rally, TS, etc from your base healing skills that are locked into that line). You won't have any of your damage skills because those are locked into another tree, so mid-fight stance swapping will be pointless... The ability to hold more than 1 buff up at a time is locked into traiting the yellow line. So expect to be able to function strongly in 1 of the roles that we have on live while not being able to do anything worthwhile in the others. Your skill rotations will be greatly lessened, your toolbox will be eliminated, and you'll have a few core skills that you grind to death. It's a very boring setup with exceedingly minimal "synergy" (if you can even call it that). So while other classes are receiving synergy, creativity, and fun, the minstrel is receiving vanilla, simplistic, and boring.

[Namesse]

The class changes are drastic, so you really have to try them yourself. After months of beta, many are choosing to move on from Lotro, or to resign themselves to accepting the changes, yet others love them.

Some classes will enter Beta 2.0 on Nov. 18 so you might be better off taking a break or working an alt for several months, prime among these is the minstrel.

If you have not already purchased HD by this time, don't purchase it until you've had a chance to figure out if you like what it offers. I don't think it's worth $40, and I don't think it's worth 4300 TP for a quest pack, a "Big Skirmish" pack and a main class that is broken and boring. YMMV.

[Peresbert]

Please say it isn't so.
Please say that hunter's agile rejoinder isn't going away.

I use agile rejoinder as often as possible. This is my primary heal. I have the legacy maxed out on my legendary item; at the cost of several scrolls of empowerment. I use this melee skill just as often as many of my bow skills.

Please bring it back before the end of beta. Don't let this skill go!

It's gone with the wind. We have yet to win that argument. They gave Cry of the Hunter back, but that was a heated debate because many hunters where on both sides of the discussion. Agile Rejoinder was something we all wanted, but never got.

[Gohankuten]

I will tell all that crafting got a fairly good overhaul. Tin has been removed as a mineable and now has to be bought from suppliers for making bronze(includes Khazard-tin). Khazard ores have all been turned into 1 ore node and you have processing recipes to make which ingot you need from the ore. Weaponsmith, Metalsmith,and Tailor got processing recipes so you can get experience in the craft with less resources used(I think Jeweler and Woodworker also got some but I didn't copy over a jeweler or woodworker or choose jeweler or woodworker to check so can't say for sure). Heavy armour classes(Capts, Champs, Guards) now have heavy armour use from the get-go and tier 1 and 2 metalsmith recipes got updated to reflect that along with the intro quests giving heavy armour as a choice. All component recipes have been removed and now the craft skills use straight resources like Scholar or like the tool recipes for Metalsmith. Forester got some changed processing recipes for different types of planks and leathers for all tiers and tailor(and presumably woodworker) have recipes that use the different types. As for crafting guild rep items they all took a hit in xp they give.

[Sapience]

Are the Beta Forums now open for people, who could not access them before?

They are not. The NDA has been lifted, but the beta is still a closed beta.

Epic Battles= Skirmishes 3.0;

All involve daily locks on each quest (the side quests you get inside are random). Random jewelery rewards. No way to earn specific Epic Battles rewards.
While on cooldown all you can get are marks and medallions. You cannot get XP.

I think, as the devs have mentioned, that they're a lot more than just a new version of skirmishes and if they had to compare them to Skirms they'd probably label them 4.0 or 5.0. They're that different from what people think of as a skirmish at this point.

Class Changes: Big and sweeping, and undoubtedly controversial. The most important thing with these is to give them a chance. They are very different to what we have on live, but the core elements of classes remain intact. Skills may be gated or found on the trees, while others are merged or accessed via procs, etc. After the initial shock wears off, you may find you really like the changes. I know I do. Not only have skills generally been improved, but cooldowns have been mostly decreased across the board. All classes also have a slew of new skills, specific to various trait trees.

-Bel

This is actually very much what we have heard from the majority of players. I'll also mention that a lot of the final form of the classes and which skills are in which tree and the skills that found their way into the general pool are there in no small part to player feedback. There have been literally hundreds upon hundreds of changes made to the trees and their organization. Some literally ripped right from player feedback threads and put in game.

[Humbabumba]

Well ppl.

I suggest wear you protective gear, fasten seatbelt.
Ask family to lock the door from outside and throw away the key.
(Ask loclksmith to come by after a week or so.)
Fasten seatbelt, put on helmet, eyeprotection, gloves.
Now. You are gonna have a really really really interesting experience to say the least.
Lets say like a twohanded hammer straight into your head, for example.

I sugest that comes whatever, hang on and dig deep.
Then abit deeper. And keep on digging,

Thers alot and not all is gonna look sweet nice or pleasant. Some things have gone, some things are new.
I have ./played my main about 6 months or 7 maybe. Still cannot make heads or tails out of it.
The last try involved making a new char and levelleing it from 1 to 9, manually.
Id say there is something on the other end, but its a far reach and living on fate.

Bets course of action; dig deep. You may need to relearn all your skills.

I reserve my personal oppinion to myself, you are gonna see and have your own oppinion.
Al iam saying is, dig deep.

[DanteIL]

One big thing for people to be aware of -- that caused a lot of 'discussion' -- is the fact that, when building out your class skill trees, skills in your specialization cost 1 point each, and skills in the other two trees cost 2 points each. This mechanic is what really limits your ability to create hybrid builds -- not to say that it can't be done, but it will definitely come at a cost of some of the skills you are used to having. This is what is meant by "tough decisions."


In general, the class/skill changes are going to be a HUGE learning curve for most everyone, and many people won't like it at all, but many others will eventually get used to it. Just don't expect to be able to recreate exactly how you played your character previously.

Plus, you will have to figure out ways to save your skill bars so that all of your skills don't mysteriously move around when switching specializations.


The other big event with HD is, obviously, the Epic Battles.

-sigh-

They are rough, really rough. They are confusing and designed in such a way as to actually minimize the need for you to use your class skills (whichever ones you have left ). Plus, they are also kind of boring a lot of the time -- aside from the 'special objectives' (which you often can't even find but they still mysteriously complete or fail anyway with equal probability), you spend much of your time waiting around and issuing the occasional command. After much feedback, they did add a Tutorial, which helps some, but still -- be prepared to be befuddled and frustrated at first. The Battles play out a lot like a RTS game -- click on this, turn that, run around here and there. Plus, the skill trees in the Battles (Engineer, Vanguard, & Officer) are really designed badly, forcing you to spend points in dopey skills first before you get to the skills that might actually help you, and the skills are expensive (1 point for the first rank, 2 points for the 2nd rank in the same skill, 3 points for the 3rd, etc.). I'm a casual player and unless my kin gets really enthusiastic about these, I can't see doing them any more than I already do the occasional skirmish.

[ShireDweller]

Please say it isn't so.
Please say that hunter's agile rejoinder isn't going away.

I use agile rejoinder as often as possible. This is my primary heal. I have the legacy maxed out on my legendary item; at the cost of several scrolls of empowerment. I use this melee skill just as often as many of my bow skills.

Please bring it back before the end of beta. Don't let this skill go!

Many of us asked for it back, but yes, it is gone now.

"All we have to decide is what to do with the skills that are given us."

[Jeffor]

The dev's promised Helm's Deep will bring 'tough choices' with regards to the class changes... The only choice for many players will be if they keep playing or not, alas I don't think the choice will be all the tough in the end.

I agree. There's no way I would miss Helms Deep. I think it's going to be a lot of fun.

[Crell_1]

I think, as the devs have mentioned, that they're a lot more than just a new version of skirmishes and if they had to compare them to Skirms they'd probably label them 4.0 or 5.0. They're that different from what people think of as a skirmish at this point.

Originally they were described as 'The Big Brother Of Skirmishes' by one of the producers, at some point Turbine decided they wanted to stop comparing them to skirmishes entirely . I have heard no statements from the development team or anyone prior to this post by you that would label them Skirmishes 4.0 or 5.0.; I felt my Skirmishes 3.0 statement was generous and originally had thought I'd write Skirmishes 2.5;

I could have almost as easily said 'Wolfs Cleft 1.5'

Epic Battles Pros:
Upscaling
Variety of Roles (Though some are very suited to specific battles more than others)

Epic Battles Cons:
Fixed Group Size (All skirmishes have ALL Group sizes except for Survival Barrow Downs)
Automatic Start (Most Skirmishes allow us to say 'We're ready to start')
No guaranteed Rewards Path (Except for Raid Skirmishes, its always currency->what WE Want)
Daily CDs (Solo Skirmishes dont have any kind of Cooldown!)
Tend to rely more on Brute Force than strategy. (Equally true of skirmishes)

Feels more like a 'Direct your Soldier' / or 'Play with the Clickies' than a fight we're on the front lines for.