Gift of Valar! Raise your level to 50 with no effort at all!

[Hurin]

I'm not sure why people care what others do with their money.

I guess I don't understand this mentality. If you don't agree with the idea of instantly getting to 50 "with no effort" then don't buy it. Why does it bother you that
other people might buy it? I thought it was way overpriced considering it doesn't take much time at all to get to 50, but I couldn't care less if others bought it, or that it even existed.

Is it that "you had to work for it" while others can just buy their way there?

Covered. Extensively. Link. And it goes on from there, addressing every angle, for page after page after page.

[manstan]

I'm not sure why people care what others do with their money.

I guess I don't understand this mentality. If you don't agree with the idea of instantly getting to 50 "with no effort" then don't buy it. Why does it bother you that
other people might buy it? I thought it was way overpriced considering it doesn't take much time at all to get to 50, but I couldn't care less if others bought it, or that it even existed.

Is it that "you had to work for it" while others can just buy their way there?

Emphatically YES. It may be a generational thing, but it seems we have a generation coming up that have this delusion they are some how "entitled". We wounder why we a have a generation coming up that don't feel they need to work for a living, it's simply because it was all handed to them with out earning it. This just supports that mentality, and I am against anything caters to this "entitled" mentality.

"Anything worth having is worth working for".

[monteeburns]

Emphatically YES. It may be a generational thing, but it seems we have a generation coming up that have this delusion they are some how "entitled". We wounder why we a have a generation coming up that don't feel they need to work for a living
"Anything worth having is worth working for".

And where do you think they would get the money to buy this? Possibly by working for a living to earn that money? If the parents choose to give it to them, it's not the upcoming generations issue, but one with the current generation.

Regardless of how you stand on the subject, the issue is whether people should only be able to have ingame what they have earned ingame, and that ship has already sailed. Personally I think they should be allowed to buy their way to 50, but be forced to wear a hat of shame, unless they have a fully levelled main already.

[Hurin]

Regardless of how you stand on the subject, the issue is whether people should only be able to have ingame what they have earned ingame, and that ship has already sailed.

Sadly, that is the case. "Earn what you get" is the antithesis of the Store business model.

[manstan]

Only someone really stupid would buy this item... You level up from level 1 to level 50 like in one day?

My main is 54th level, been playing almost 2 year. A day my hairy fat ...... fist.

" it's not the upcoming generations issue, but one with the current generation."

Agree, we have a generation that forgot what discipline was for, so now we have a spoiled rotten generation coming up which don't feel they are responsible for their actions and are entitled to money for nothing. They are always coming up with excuses why it's not their fault, like being rich gets you off 4 counts of vehicular homicide because you have affluenza.

[Lohi]

Covered. Extensively.

But it's not well argued I think. After all, anyone can today easily pay $500 to get someone else to power level their characters, how is that any different other than cost? It's there in the background as an option, making the journey that much more "arduous". Seriously, if the option to buy levels makes leveling psychologically more arduous, then maybe MMOs are the wrong sort of game to play.

[Lohi]

Sadly, that is the case. "Earn what you get" is the antithesis of the Store business model.

Except that earning TP is even more work than getting stuff the old fashioned way. I'm an old fart, and I don't care at all if someone figures takes a short cut. That doesn't mean I have to like those people or that I dislike them, it's not my business. To me the leveling is the best part of the game (or was until it got so simple), even on your 9th alt, so the shortcut is also shortchanging the fun as well, but I won't stand in the way. I don't understand why someone who doesn't want to play the game before level 50 would want to play it after that level, but they can do it if they want.

[manstan]

Except that earning TP is even more work than getting stuff the old fashioned way. I'm an old fart, and I don't care at all if someone figures takes a short cut. That doesn't mean I have to like those people or that I dislike them, it's not my business. To me the leveling is the best part of the game (or was until it got so simple), even on your 9th alt, so the shortcut is also shortchanging the fun as well, but I won't stand in the way. I don't understand why someone who doesn't want to play the game before level 50 would want to play it after that level, but they can do it if they want.

Agree. I used to be a very avid reader. To me buying in at level 50 is like starting the book at the middle. Now if it's a book you have read before, maybe a couple of times, and your favorite part is from the middle on, that is different.

Lohi I have come to the conclusion there are people that think just playing the game is "grinding" so they want to skip as much of the "grind" as possible.

On this other game I am playing, we had some one post to the forum asking why they couldn't complete the main story line, they were blocked at the bridge. Come to find out all he did was the main story, skipping all the side quest, rep missions, contracts, ect so wasn't high enough level to be given the mission to get across the bridge. He got all hacked off because he wasn't going to do "that grindy carp".
Like LOTRO's deeds, the rep missions are no grind till you get to needing the 1K points for a particularly nice weapon. And the side missions are generally soloable, but many are better in a group and one is mandatory to group. Just the one. A good 1/3 of this game is about squad vs squad, all of the endgame is. If you really want the best payout you have to do the shadow wars; red vs blue. Or the clan arkfalls and sieges.
Lucky for me I have already built up a rep as a runNgun tank so I get invited to pug{?} fill in the roister once and a while.

This is the game I talked about where the best part of it is the auto grouping for missions and arkfalls. The game scales to suit the player or group. And I actually have to watch myself, if I do too good at an arkfall I have to start dealing with elites made for groups. I can do most of the mobs; even some elites, till the Monarchs; specialty elites, start showing up. And I hate having to give up on an arkfall, I'm sort of too good for my own good lol

[monteeburns]

To me the leveling is the best part of the game (or was until it got so simple), even on your 9th alt, so the shortcut is also shortchanging the fun as well, but I won't stand in the way. I don't understand why someone who doesn't want to play the game before level 50 would want to play it after that level, but they can do it if they want.

I also am for people being able to do whatever they want. However, the problem comes when those people start grouping, and then waste everybodys time either expecting everythng to be explained to them, or say nothing, and waste everybodys time by wiping the group. Now granted, some people at 50 don't have a good understanding of their class anyway, but I think most people are happy to help them in a pug / kin run because at least they've made some sort of effort along the way. It's fine to buy your way to 50 in principle, but as soon as you start grouping, you are then expecting others to in effect waste their time to cover your lack of skill due to the time you saved by pulling out your wallet. It's somewhat different for an alt because chances are that at least you have a good understanding of the game mechanics through levelling a main.
I don't understand this 'buying your way to 50' doesn't affect others because it does, at least as soon as you do anything other than solo play.

[Brandon_Blackbird]

I also am for people being able to do whatever they want. However, the problem comes when those people start grouping, and then waste everybodys time either expecting everythng to be explained to them, or say nothing, and waste everybodys time by wiping the group. Now granted, some people at 50 don't have a good understanding of their class anyway, but I think most people are happy to help them in a pug / kin run because at least they've made some sort of effort along the way. It's fine to buy your way to 50 in principle, but as soon as you start grouping, you are then expecting others to in effect waste their time to cover your lack of skill due to the time you saved by pulling out your wallet. It's somewhat different for an alt because chances are that at least you have a good understanding of the game mechanics through levelling a main.
I don't understand this 'buying your way to 50' doesn't affect others because it does, at least as soon as you do anything other than solo play.

While I'm sure there are some brand new players who will use this item, I suspect the majority of the people who use it are the ones who have multiple characters and are tired of running yet another alt through all the same quests again, and thus will have a pretty good idea of how the game works, even if they haven't played the class before.

Also, it's level 50. There's still another 45 levels to learn how to work the class. Or are level 50 groups a big thing these days?

It's funny how perspectives change. This is pretty much equivalent to someone being able to buy their way to 25 when the level cap was 50 hehe

[monteeburns]

While I'm sure there are some brand new players who will use this item, I suspect the majority of the people who use it are the ones who have multiple characters and are tired of running yet another alt through all the same quests again, and thus will have a pretty good idea of how the game works, even if they haven't played the class before.

Yeah I agree, which is why only those without a high level main should be compelled to wear the hat of shame, those who have bothered to level a main can be excused.

Also, it's level 50. There's still another 45 levels to learn how to work the class. Or are level 50 groups a big thing these days?

But if a player is willing to buy their way to 50, chances are they are going to take every other shortcut in the book to get to 95. Even if they seriously start learning their skills at 50 ( which probably they won't as their goals will usually be to get to 'end game' as soon as possible ) then it's going to take a good while for them to get some sort of idea of how to play their character anyway, probably at least 20 levels at best. But it there isn't any grouping going on up to level 70 or so, then somethings very wrong in an MMO. Regardless, I'd put a good bet than a player who started at the start, and a player who took the shortcuts to get to max level as quickly as possible, would have a wide difference in skill level when they both reach max level.

[Brandon_Blackbird]

But if a player is willing to buy their way to 50, chances are they are going to take every other shortcut in the book to get to 95. Even if they seriously start learning their skills at 50 ( which probably they won't as their goals will usually be to get to 'end game' as soon as possible ) then it's going to take a good while for them to get some sort of idea of how to play their character anyway, probably at least 20 levels at best. But it there isn't any grouping going on up to level 70 or so, then somethings very wrong in an MMO.

I'm not sure what other "shortcuts" exist to get from 50 to 95, honestly. I'm trying to think of some aside from powerleveling, which has been in game since day one.

Regardless, I'd put a good bet than a player who started at the start, and a player who took the shortcuts to get to max level as quickly as possible, would have a wide difference in skill level when they both reach max level.

True, but so will a person who took their time to get to 95, and knows their class backwards and forwards for solo or duo purposes. When they decide they want to try out a raid, they won't know the first thing about what to do in a raid or larger group, and will need their hand held. Should this player be "shunned" as well, for lack of a better word?

[Feraxks]

Regardless, I'd put a good bet than a player who started at the start, and a player who took the shortcuts to get to max level as quickly as possible, would have a wide difference in skill level when they both reach max level.

EDIT: Nevermind -- Brandon said it better than me and it a much less inflammatory way.

[monteeburns]

And you STILL wouldn't know which one was which. I've known plenty of players at level cap that had no idea what they were doing and they didn't power level their way there. How many tanks or healers solo'd their way to level cap and then started grouping with no idea of how to do anything? The bottom line is, it only affects your enjoyment of the game because you have chosen to let it affect your enjoyment, not because it has any real impact on your game play -- because it doesn't.

I've no issue helping someone who struggles with learning their skills, as long as they made the effort. I don't see why I should waste time explaining to someone who couldn't be bothered to put in their own time though.
Which is why they must wear the hat of shame, thus be identifiable. More practically, make it go on their character bio, and be not able to be removed. If they see no problem in doing it, they should have no problem letting others be aware of it.

I'm not sure what other "shortcuts" exist to get from 50 to 95, honestly. I'm trying to think of some aside from powerleveling, which has been in game since day one.

XP boosts, skill and slayer deed boosts, I'm sure there are probably more, but I don't use the store very often so I'm not entirely sure what's available now.

True, but so will a person who took their time to get to 95, and knows their class backwards and forwards for solo or duo purposes. When they decide they want to try out a raid, they won't know the first thing about what to do in a raid or larger group, and will need their hand held. Should this player be "shunned" as well, for lack of a better word?

Nope, because as above, at least they've put in the time to that point, just as everyone else did.

[Brandon_Blackbird]

I've no issue helping someone who struggles with learning their skills, as long as they made the effort. I don't see why I should waste time explaining to someone who couldn't be bothered to put in their own time though.
Which is why they must wear the hat of shame, thus be identifiable. More practically, make it go on their character bio, and be not able to be removed. If they see no problem in doing it, they should have no problem letting others be aware of it.

One of the great things about this game is that you can't tell who is who. You can't tell who is F2P, premium, VIP, lifer, the 16th alt on a main account, the 3rd alt on a 5th account, the first character ever, or anything else, unless that person volunteers the information. Segregation and scarlet letters are not the answer here, because you don't know the reason behind their choices. No one should be ridiculed or shamed because of how they choose to play the game. If you run into a bad player who refuses to learn, put them on ignore and be done with it.

[Hurin]

But it's not well argued I think. After all, anyone can today easily pay $500 to get someone else to power level their characters, how is that any different other than cost?

If we want to talk about something that's not well-argued, there's a good example. If I think a game should be played and those that produce it shouldn't taint and diminish it by selling sanctioned "cheats" (things that were and still would be considered cheats if we weren't paying them off in order to be allowed to do it), then of course hiring a power-leveler is worse. Pointing out something that is worse (and still not allowed) is not an argument for lesser offences being good.

And, of course, were you to go peruse (or review) the rest of the thread, there are many, many, many other arguments leveled against this sort of thing beyond the effect it has on the mindset of those leveling the old-fashioned way.

Honestly though, the whole leveling experience has been so cheapened by now, I really don't care that much about this in the end. It's the logical end-result when gameplay has been so diminished and made so trivial. Playing the newest content now, I'm struck by how led around by the nose we now are. Between the linear nature of everything and the quest assistance pointer, the entire solo experience now feels like busy-work punctuated by occasional moments of compelling narrative. We used to be given decent directions to an objective and then explored the world to accomplish our quests. Now, we just follow the arrow directly to wherever we need to go. Oh, and if you decide to turn that off. . . good luck. Because whereas we were always told this was an optional feature, as predicted, newer quests are written with the assumption that the quest assistance pointer will be used. . . so decent directions given by NPCs are now few and are between. Can you imagine doing the "scout the road to. . ." quests at all without the quest assistance feature? It would be a disaster since you're required to walk a very tight glidepath lest you screw things up completely. Heh, now, I'm merely told by the lady and UnderHarrow: "Go find the Orc Cave." Where? Which side of the mountains? Oh, wait, you don't need to tell me, I'll just follow the arrow directly there.

Why don't people like me just quit since we obviously "hate" the game now? For the same reason I'm going to finish a long book even though the last few chapters have disappointed me. I've got seven level 75+ toons leveled over the last six or so years. Those are pretty much wasted now that endgame is in the state it's currently in (by design). But I'm at least going to stick around and take one of them (my LM main) through the end of the story/game. Yet, with all these changes to the difficulty, tone, focus, and intended audience of the game, I'm now a casual tourist who plays the game occasionally upon the release of new content, instead of the dedicated player who happily spent every possible hour of my recreational time in this game.

--H

[monteeburns]

One of the great things about this game is that you can't tell who is who. You can't tell who is F2P, premium, VIP, lifer, the 16th alt on a main account, the 3rd alt on a 5th account, the first character ever, or anything else, unless that person volunteers the information.

There are the character frame portraits, but I take your point.

Segregation and scarlet letters are not the answer here, because you don't know the reason behind their choices. No one should be ridiculed or shamed because of how they choose to play the game. If you run into a bad player who refuses to learn, put them on ignore and be done with it.

It's not a question of being ridiculed or shamed, but if I have a couple of hours in an evening one night to play and I want to run some instances in Moria while levelling an alt, I don't want to get a group together only to find that having waited for everyone to get together, two of them haven't the first idea how to go about playing their class, and waste the night because of it. You already can tell to some extend by inspecting people, sure they can be anonymous, but some pugs ask people to show their gear first. It's not something I choose to do, I don't care what gear you have. But if I want to enjoy my couple of hours play, surely I should have the option to join or not accordingly without having to wipe several times to find out.

[Hurin]

No one should be ridiculed or shamed because of how they choose to play the game.

Two quick points. . .

We're talking about those who refuse to play the game (not how they play it).

But even those people shouldn't be ridiculed. We agree.

However, a game that has reached the point where it will actually accept money from its players in exchange for allowing them not to play it while still obtaining the in-game benefits of playing it. . . that (the game) might in fact be deserving of some criticism, if not ridicule.

I'd say no to the "ridicule" only because those building this game are only doing what they need to do to make this game as financially successful as possible (and thus keep their bosses happy). Even if it undermines the integrity of their own game.

After all, when most people don't even recognize that a game can even have integrity and merely yell "don't tell me how to play my game!" whenever anyone points out such things, Turbine must take note that they're never going to lose certain types of players. In fact, they make more money catering to them.

[Karimi]

However, a game that has reached the point where it will actually accept money from its players in exchange for allowing them not to play it while still obtaining the in-game benefits of playing it. . . that (the game) might in fact be deserving of some criticism, if not ridicule.

I disagree. If Turbine can find people willing to pay money to skip free content, then why on Earth would they not take it? It is figuratively a gift horse which funds the continued development of the game. Let's be real. Level 50 is not game-breaking because it is nowhere near the cap. It is basically saving someone about a week's worth of questing through old content.

I'd say no to the "ridicule" only because those building this game are only doing what they need to do to make this game as financially successful as possible (and thus keep their bosses happy). Even if it undermines the integrity of their own game.

There is no integrity in MMOs anymore, at least in the traditional sense that I think you mean. They all allow you to buy easier gameplay, and it's precisely because of the gaming community's refusal to financially support subscription-based MMOs. As a result, companies have to work with a fee system in which some players spend more on the game than others. Those players SHOULD get advantages, because money is the currency of progress in F2P games -- whereas it was playtime in the old subscription games.

After all, when most people don't even recognize that a game can even have integrity and merely yell "don't tell me how to play my game!" whenever anyone points out such things, Turbine must take note that they're never going to lose certain types of players. In fact, they make more money catering to them.

Turbine will not lose players who want more "integrity" from the game. That exodus from LOTRO and other MMOs occurred a long time ago. If you are playing MMOs now and want integrity, then exactly which MMO will you be playing? Where will you go if you leave LOTRO? Every other MMO is doing same thing.

[Lohi]

However, the problem comes when those people start grouping, and then waste everybodys time either expecting everythng to be explained to them, or say nothing, and waste everybodys time by wiping the group.

I have not really seen this problem before. And when it does happen it's not because someone power leveled or bought a character, but because they haven't grouped before. But the result is minor, a group wipe is nothing to get mad at, though sometimes you see some players taking this too seriously. Everybody has to be in a place for the first time, or with a group for the first time. The player base in my experience tends to be very adaptable here and willing to explain stuff to newcomers.

And leveling to 50 means you still have a long way to go to learn the class. Mostly the 1-50 levels are so fast anyway, nothing hard, even a class that used to be complex like lore-master is now very simple. I remember in one of the expansion betas I chose a class that I had never leveled up beyond 20 before and then used the instant-leveling tools to get it to high level, and I figured it out very quickly and was able to join groups and pull my own weight. "Knowing the class" is overrated compared to knowing how to group because it does not take long to learn the class to the point where you can group. Yes it does take longer to learn how to maximize the class but that's never required in this game.

Most of the people who are going to spend the money here are those who already have high level characters who already group a lot and know what to do.

[Lohi]

I'm not sure what other "shortcuts" exist to get from 50 to 95, honestly.

Well, if they go questing, which is decent experience still, they'll still need to learn how to play in Moria (it's gotten easy but still tricky). However most I think like to do skirmishes endlessly (though maybe this is F2P people skipping past zones they don't own). Doing endless skirmishes you will need to know how to play, you can't just use one skill over and over and do them efficiently, so the power levelers doing this will want to increase their effectiveness (learn all their self heals, increase their damage, do some crowd control, etc).

Other powerlevelers just get kin to help them out, invited into high level instances where they can't pull their own weight anyway. But those people are going to end up grouping with the kin at max level when they get there, it's not like they're a ticking time bomb waiting to ninja some loot in a PUG.

[monteeburns]

I have not really seen this problem before. And when it does happen it's not because someone power leveled or bought a character, but because they haven't grouped before. But the result is minor, a group wipe is nothing to get mad at, though sometimes you see some players taking this too seriously. Everybody has to be in a place for the first time, or with a group for the first time. The player base in my experience tends to be very adaptable here and willing to explain stuff to newcomers.

A group wipe isn't anything to get mad at, as you say. Just like most people who have spent a lot of time in the game - and done a lot of pugs, I've joined pugs with some players who have turned out to be terrible, despite their best efforts. I've never, ever treated a bad player any differently to everyone else, mainly because everyone knows what it feels like to mess a raid / instance up while learning. I've sworn at my monitor a couple of times over the years after the xth wipe, but never booted anyone, or told them they should join another group, or had a go at them for it, and as far as I can remember, never left a full group because of bad players, no matter how much we've wiped. I've seen other players start having a go at other players in the pug and I never understood why, because presumably they are trying their best. But I'd have less sympathy if I ended up in a pug wiping over and over because one or more players wanted to save themselves time by autolevelling.

If players who autolevelled had it on their bio, that situation could be avoided in the first place. If I have a full day to waste, I might be happy to join a pug with some auto leveled 50s who just downloaded the game 2 days ago, if I only have a couple of hours though, I'm fine with the idea of being in a pug and helping inexperienced players who have at least put the time in to try to learn and help themselves, not so much those who haven't. It's not about beating the instance, or anyone ninjaing loot, it's about not wanting to waste my time when I'm playing the game, by bailing out someone who decided they had something better to do with their time than play the game.

I
Other powerlevelers just get kin to help them out, invited into high level instances where they can't pull their own weight anyway. But those people are going to end up grouping with the kin at max level when they get there, it's not like they're a ticking time bomb waiting to ninja some loot in a PUG.

The two kins I've been in ( large kins ) refuse for the most part to do this for new players, because many expected to be powerleveled. The kin may help ocasionally if they have been stuck on a quest for a while, but certainly not powerlevel them. Mainly because these are the people who won't try to find any answers for themselves, expect everything to be explained to them, and to get carried through the game. I'd hazard a guess that those who bought their way to 50 would be the first asking to be powerleveled by the kin.

[Hurin]

Turbine will not lose players who want more "integrity" from the game. That exodus from LOTRO and other MMOs occurred a long time ago. If you are playing MMOs now and want integrity, then exactly which MMO will you be playing? Where will you go if you leave LOTRO? Every other MMO is doing same thing.

As I've said before, LotRO will be my last MMO (I've played them since UO's beta). It's no secret that the industry as a whole has moved to the "free to play" model. And the subscription model is dead.

Nevertheless, a lamentable --yet universal-- development is made no less lamentable because it is universal.

There's just too many conflicts of interest (eg., selling "grind avoidance" while also being the one who decides how much grind is in the game, etc.) and potential for abuse in the free-to-play model. I can't imagine playing another from the beginning MMO nowadays knowing what I know now about what the business model eventually, inevitably devolves into.

--H

P.S. Sorry for ending with a preposition!

[Karimi]

As I've said before, LotRO will be my last MMO (I've played them since UO's beta). It's no secret that the industry as a whole has moved to the "free to play" model. And the subscription model is dead.

Nevertheless, a lamentable --yet universal-- development is made no less lamentable because it is universal.

There's just too many conflicts of interest (eg., selling "grind avoidance" while also being the one who decides how much grind is in the game, etc.) and potential for abuse in the free-to-play model. I can't imagine playing another from the beginning MMO nowadays knowing what I know now about what the business model eventually, inevitably devolves into.

I agree with you 100% about the problems this change has caused. I guess that I have finally moved from the denial phase to acceptance -- if I want to play MMOs.

I still play hard-mode whenever possible and just accept that I am the oddball that it makes no financial sense for companies to develop for.

[randomthing]

Hi,

If they want me to ever buy something like this, it should rather be 1000 TP for ANY 10 levels. (I would rather skip 65-75 than 1-50.) But i don't really see a problem with this. I will probably never get it, but if Turbine can make some money on it then why not?




Not only are they real but they are something many players have wanted for years It's one of the few things i happily spend TP on.

Some of my resons to buy them: (There are more if you search the forum)
If anyone needs help with an instance it's not very fun if i bring in a 85'er to a level 20 GB-Run. In the past i have tried to have chars at the different sweet-spots for non-scaling instances. Before the xp-disablers this was almost impossible. Just from doing a couple of runs or craft a bit i outleveled it. Now i can have stationary characters who are ready to join in on the fun whenever needed.

And sure, you can do grey quests, but to me it's pretty dull. It's more fun doing content on the levels it was designed for imho. It at least gives some small sense of danger in middle-earth doing orange/red stuff.

We managed to duo IP the other day with 2 xp-disabled level 20'ies, i can honestly say it gave me a bigger feeling of success and accomplishment than most stuff i have done in LotRO the last years To me it was way more fun than with maxed out 85'ers.

Regards
/T

No no no... You have got it all wrong! The most fun part is doing quests way over your level.