Helms Deep Failure ....

[Carelluin]

Well dont like that xpac at all instance are boring and moors wak no work in it creep side still with the same damage and heal and for freep to gear you gotta do boring epic battle and there not even a pvp lvl 95 armor. Even that people farm true sword hall to by pass quest whats the point to have bought helms deep then .

[Johnhz]

[hanedizzle]

Maybe this just isnt the game for me anymore. I had a good run and alot of fun. Lotro just doesn't fit into my style of play anymore. Maybe ill come back to creepside in a week or so once freeps have had a chance to level and gear. Then make my decision whether or not to actually quit. But other than crepside this game has zero appeal to e anymore... Maybe thats the point of this expac, to attract the young players who dont know #### and ditch the old ones who complain about there mistakes.


Thor,

[oaceen]

Well dont like that xpac at all instance are boring and moors wak no work in it creep side still with the same damage and heal and for freep to gear you gotta do boring epic battle and there not even a pvp lvl 95 armor. Even that people farm true sword hall to by pass quest whats the point to have bought helms deep then .

By boring do you mean no longer easily exploitable?

And all those people level capping through sword halls are missing five trait points in the new content's questline that they'll have to go back and do anyway.

[Carelluin]

By boring do you mean no longer easily exploitable?

And all those people level capping through sword halls are missing five trait points in the new content's questline that they'll have to go back and do anyway.

No they are just boring when i played lotro it was to do some real instance and kill boss and stuff now i need to play with a catapult and extinguish fire no way those kind of instance are for kids

[Gladgilrian]

Well dont like that xpac at all instance are boring and moors wak no work in it creep side still with the same damage and heal and for freep to gear you gotta do boring epic battle and there not even a pvp lvl 95 armor. Even that people farm true sword hall to by pass quest whats the point to have bought helms deep then .

YOU!! are complaining about FARMING!?!?!?!?!? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!11!!!1! !!!!!!

[Gladgilrian]

Maybe this just isnt the game for me anymore. I had a good run and alot of fun. Lotro just doesn't fit into my style of play anymore. Maybe ill come back to creepside in a week or so once freeps have had a chance to level and gear. Then make my decision whether or not to actually quit. But other than crepside this game has zero appeal to e anymore... Maybe thats the point of this expac, to attract the young players who dont know #### and ditch the old ones who complain about there mistakes.


Thor,

The point of this xpac and the introduction of trees is to further separate your money from you to deposit it into the hands of turbine. The skillbloat reason is a joke, if you don't use the skill, don't put it on your skillbar. One man's skillbloat is another man's can't live without skill. Now most classes will need a different LI for every tree, and grind each LI, or just EZ mode it by using the store.

And great job turbine gutting QK by removing LiE from the game. Gambler is the only viable DPS spec now.

[cmash]

And great job turbine gutting QK by removing LiE from the game. Gambler is the only viable DPS spec now.

Wow, you really didn't look at the qk spec did you? It's ok though, you were always a sub par burg anyways so no shame in that.

QK is still a viable dps line as I compared a dps parse pre-HD and post-HD launch. I was happily surprised that I was parsing higher for post-HD launch and this is without the moors set since they took away the SS dev proc. Also LiE becomes part of the passive trait line for qk... I know, I know it's not totally the same thing but it's still there.

[Gladgilrian]

Wow, you really didn't look at the qk spec did you? It's ok though, you were always a sub par burg anyways so no shame in that.

QK is still a viable dps line as I compared a dps parse pre-HD and post-HD launch. I was happily surprised that I was parsing higher for post-HD launch and this is without the moors set since they took away the SS dev proc. Also LiE becomes part of the passive trait line for qk... I know, I know it's not totally the same thing but it's still there.

I actually did take quite a good look ay QK since it's what I mainly trait, spent a full day using it and it was readily apparent that my DPS was less than pre-HD. Now I do like the new capstone skill, Coup de Grace' very nice for PvP, situational at best, but Gambler is looking much, much better. Having LiE as a passive is NOT the same thing at all. So I have to ask you, did you really look at the QK spec? Bypassing 10% of my targets mitigations on crit chains is nothing at all like at LiE/SS ./facepalm

By all means, post your parses. I do assume they are at the same level with the same gear, and post both builds you're using too.

[cmash]

Well my parse post-HD launch was holding at 1.8k+ in the qk line at level 85 wearing Hytbold armor, the burglars golden shoulder pads, and the proc item golden ring that gives crit rating. Now comparing that parse to pre-HD launch, with the only thing changed was me wearing the moors armor that gave the proc for +dev chance, I was lucky to maintain a 1.6k parse. All these parses were done on the level 85 dummies.

As far as my trait line goes, I have everything maxed in the red line except for the stun dust, strike from shadows, and well practiced where I have zero points put into them. I have dust in the eyes from MM along with leaf-walker and gamblers advantage from the gamblers line.

Also, I will gladly take a 10% mitigation bypass over the previous LiE mechanic as the current form of LiE is much more beneficial over long term use then a single use LiE/SS combo. I say this because all your attacks are hitting harder due to the lower "perceived" mitigation rather then one attack hitting harder but still suffers from whatever mitigation the opponent has, that's just the way I personally see it. I don't know about you, but I'm also going through the crit chain a bunch of times, when you have DeS, GA, and FB, at your disposal every 5 seconds, man I'm loving the sound of that more and more. Even if you do say that the LiE/SS combo is better, it's better how exactly? In the short term? What killing your target one second quicker is definitely worth it, huh?

I'm not going to bother giving/doing a parse in gambler line because I don't have the proper LIs to give an effective parse nor am I going to waste my time to try and give an effective parse seeing as how I didn't even bother to preorder HD and have yet to buy the HD expansion all together. So the only thing that I can give you is what I've seen out of the QK line pre-HD and post-HD because that is what kind of burg I have always been.

So if you would like, why don't you give us a parse on the gambler line so that way we can compare. I would be happy to be enlightened on the gambler line, but I just feel like when someone says that the QK line has been gutted it is totally and completely inaccurate.

The following link is an image with the parse value and the gear that I had on.

http://postimg.org/image/kn9pdx5an/

[Gladgilrian]

Well my parse post-HD launch was holding at 1.8k+ in the qk line at level 85 wearing Hytbold armor, the burglars golden shoulder pads, and the proc item golden ring that gives crit rating. Now comparing that parse to pre-HD launch, with the only thing changed was me wearing the moors armor that gave the proc for +dev chance, I was lucky to maintain a 1.6k parse. All these parses were done on the level 85 dummies.

As far as my trait line goes, I have everything maxed in the red line except for the stun dust, strike from shadows, and well practiced where I have zero points put into them. I have dust in the eyes from MM along with leaf-walker and gamblers advantage from the gamblers line.

Also, I will gladly take a 10% mitigation bypass over the previous LiE mechanic as the current form of LiE is much more beneficial over long term use then a single use LiE/SS combo. I say this because all your attacks are hitting harder due to the lower "perceived" mitigation rather then one attack hitting harder but still suffers from whatever mitigation the opponent has, that's just the way I personally see it. I don't know about you, but I'm also going through the crit chain a bunch of times, when you have DeS, GA, and FB, at your disposal every 5 seconds, man I'm loving the sound of that more and more. Even if you do say that the LiE/SS combo is better, it's better how exactly? In the short term? What killing your target one second quicker is definitely worth it, huh?

I'm not going to bother giving/doing a parse in gambler line because I don't have the proper LIs to give an effective parse nor am I going to waste my time to try and give an effective parse seeing as how I didn't even bother to preorder HD and have yet to buy the HD expansion all together. So the only thing that I can give you is what I've seen out of the QK line pre-HD and post-HD because that is what kind of burg I have always been.

So if you would like, why don't you give us a parse on the gambler line so that way we can compare. I would be happy to be enlightened on the gambler line, but I just feel like when someone says that the QK line has been gutted it is totally and completely inaccurate.

I admit I used a bit of hyperbole when discussing the changed QK line, but from what I've seen Gambler is the better line now, most mobs are dead before they are out of the initial Provoke stun. The DoTs, the stuns, the healing that you get with Gambler just make it a more viable DPS spec, IMHO. I'll use both, haven't even looked at MM yet and I doubt I will.

[cmash]

MM is a waste of breath unless a group finds it necessary for you to twittle your thumbs during an instance.

[Gladgilrian]

MM is a waste of breath unless a group finds it necessary for you to twittle your thumbs during an instance.

I use to trait a bit into MM for raiding purposes, especially if I was being counted on to provide CC, but there are no raids now, so useless traitline now.

[cmash]

The thing is, MM has never been a viable choice, the deepest I ever traited into MM, pre-HD, was three traits and that was just to get the longer mezz more then three deep into MM was severely hindering your capabilities of still being effective. Now if you trait MM the only thing you're looking at doing is debuffing and cc while you can't really contribute in any other way which isn't really what a burg is meant to do in a group settings imho.

[Gladgilrian]

The thing is, MM has never been a viable choice, the deepest I ever traited into MM, pre-HD, was three traits and that was just to get the longer mezz more then three deep into MM was severely hindering your capabilities of still being effective. Now if you trait MM the only thing you're looking at doing is debuffing and cc while you can't really contribute in any other way which isn't really what a burg is meant to do in a group settings imho.

Burgs aren't used for debuffing and CCing in raids? How long have you been raiding on a Burg? I never said I went full MM, deepest I went is three, traited CD, traited Disable, and either longer Riddle duration if I'm CCing a lot, or traited RW.

[cmash]

Burgs aren't used for debuffing and CCing in raids? How long have you been raiding on a Burg? I never said I went full MM, deepest I went is three, traited CD, traited Disable, and either longer Riddle duration if I'm CCing a lot, or traited RW.

I meant as in nobody is going to use a burg solely for debuffing and cc'ing, if you're using a burg for only debuffing and mezzing you might as well just replace it with a lm. I also know that you didn't mean you were saying going full MM, and I was agreeing with you, it's never been viable for a burg to go full MM in the past nor will it ever be viable for a burg to go full MM for any situation imo.

Like I said and like you said the deepest that anyone ever went into MM was three yellow traits, that's it, more then that is a waste of the burg class.

[spelunker]

I meant as in nobody is going to use a burg solely for debuffing and cc'ing, if you're using a burg for only debuffing and mezzing you might as well just replace it with a lm. I also know that you didn't mean you were saying going full MM, and I was agreeing with you, it's never been viable for a burg to go full MM in the past nor will it ever be viable for a burg to go full MM for any situation imo.

Like I said and like you said the deepest that anyone ever went into MM was three yellow traits, that's it, more then that is a waste of the burg class.

MM will be how burgs win 3v1s against halfway decent creeps without cooldowns, or bad burgs will beat good creeps.

Raiding or moorsing, It certainly doesn't hold the dps output of either Qk or Gambler, but the potential for the trait line is pretty high in both solo and group content for a skilled player, while providing a forgiving setup for an average/poor one.

Not that it really matters considering how far pve has fallen in this game. I seriously have more hope for the moors updates than future pve content, and it would be an understatement to say I have a very low set of expectations for the moors update.

[Gladgilrian]

MM will be how burgs win 3v1s against halfway decent creeps without cooldowns, or bad burgs will beat good creeps.

Raiding or moorsing, It certainly doesn't hold the dps output of either Qk or Gambler, but the potential for the trait line is pretty high in both solo and group content for a skilled player, while providing a forgiving setup for an average/poor one.

Not that it really matters considering how far pve has fallen in this game. I seriously have more hope for the moors updates than future pve content, and it would be an understatement to say I have a very low set of expectations for the moors update.

So it's the Martial Champion trait for Burgs or like Shield traiting on a Warden!

I don't know, Gambler has some pretty outstanding heals. I was wandering around the new zone collecting ore and decided to take on 2 Wargs 7 levels higher than me. Of course Riddle was resisted. I was doing OK, but didn't have any wound pots of the appropriate strength, so I was getting low on health. Popped TnG and just watched the green numbers stack, back at full health with 2 dead Wargs.

@ Ash Don't be so quick to discount Burg debuffs. No class has been able to match, let alone surpass the all-Burg Turtle raid speed kill. Stacking RW's and CD's FTW!! It isn't because of superior DPS, all Hunter and all RK raids have failed to even get a kill, and I'm sure you will admit that Hunters and RK's can out DPS Burgs.

[cmash]

I'm sure you will admit that Hunters and RK's can out DPS Burgs.

I'm actually not going to admit that, over my 1 1/2+ years of playing burg I came across very few people that were able to out DPS me and I played with some of the best people on the server.

[Gladgilrian]

I'm actually not going to admit that, over my 1 1/2+ years of playing burg I came across very few people that were able to out DPS me and I played with some of the best people on the server.

You seriously think you can out DPS Hunters and RK's, how may 10k+ attacks do you have? I agree that Burgs can do respectable DPS, but they are not the best DPS class in the game.

[spelunker]

You seriously think you can out DPS Hunters and RK's, how may 10k+ attacks do you have? I agree that Burgs can do respectable DPS, but they are not the best DPS class in the game.

At 85 my warden out-dpsed RKs in sustained fights, and I didn't hold a candle to elite dps-ing Burgs. I haven't been keeping tabs on PvE burgs or RKs yet in HD, so I don't know how much the loss of the Unseen Moors set has been mitigated by the new trait system, but after that set was released, burgs were probably #1 in dps in RoI, and tied with champs for second fiddle to Hunters in RoR for raw damage output on a single target. RKs claiming to be in the same league just hadn't met the right players on these classes, which is pretty sad considering the relative skill requirement needed to do such things.

Big hits do not automatically equate to DPS, and lightning RKs are the poster child for this truth.

Also, at the risk of sounding like an even bigger ######, playing with 'some of the best' on Nim in the last 2 expansions means you've played with some of the decidedly average in the grand scheme of lotro. The case can certainly be made that this was a different story in SoM and MoM, but since RoI launch, no.

[Stepbrother]

You seriously think you can out DPS Hunters and RK's, how may 10k+ attacks do you have? I agree that Burgs can do respectable DPS, but they are not the best DPS class in the game.

I thought it was well known that burg has the best sustained DPS. I've never parsed it myself, just going by what I hear other burgs say.

[cmash]

You seriously think you can out DPS Hunters and RK's, how may 10k+ attacks do you have? I agree that Burgs can do respectable DPS, but they are not the best DPS class in the game.

It's not about the 10k+ attacks, it's how consistent the damage can be done. Now I don't know what the hunter skills are for helms deep or how often they can do their 10k+ attack but I doubt it's more then every 15+ secs. I'd be interested to see a hunter parse, rk parse, and a champion parse in HD, but I was basing my information off of what I played during Mirkwood, RoI, and RoR and for all those expansions I was hardly every out parsed in DPS during raids.

I could care less about killing mobs in open zones as I could do a 6k parse on a mob that will last one second.

[cmash]

I haven't been keeping tabs on PvE burgs or RKs yet in HD, so I don't know how much the loss of the Unseen Moors set has been mitigated by the new trait system

I'll let you know that if a burg finds a proper rotation for HD, fyi i have, the burg is parsing higher without the unseen bonus set then what they were parsing pre-HD with the unseen moors set by about 200-500 dps.

As I said before earlier in this post my burg is still level 85, so there's no arguement to be made that I'm parsing higher because my burg is 10 levels higher then what I was parsing pre-HD.

Pre-HD launch: parsed 1.5-1.6k on 85 dummies consistently
Post-HD launch: parsing 1.8k+ on 85 dummies consistently

Also, at the risk of sounding like an even bigger ######, playing with 'some of the best' on Nim in the last 2 expansions means you've played with some of the decidedly average in the grand scheme of lotro. The case can certainly be made that this was a different story in SoM and MoM, but since RoI launch, no.

I also realize that this server has always been fairly average in it's player base, but you also don't know the players/kinships that do not involve themselves with the general public on Nimrodel and those players are the ones that I am referring to as "some of the best."

It's true that there were some elite players during the Angmar and MoM scenes, but to say that there were/are no elite players during the post-MoM scene on Nimrodel is false.

[spelunker]

I'll let you know that if a burg finds a proper rotation for HD, fyi i have, the burg is parsing higher without the unseen bonus set then what they were parsing pre-HD with the unseen moors set by about 200-500 dps.

As I said before earlier in this post my burg is still level 85, so there's no arguement to be made that I'm parsing higher because my burg is 10 levels higher then what I was parsing pre-HD.

Pre-HD launch: parsed 1.5-1.6k on 85 dummies consistently
Post-HD launch: parsing 1.8k+ on 85 dummies consistently

The same can be said for just about every other class besides champions for single target parses going up; some classes have moved up far more dramatically than the 12-15% you experienced. To be honest class revamps are still so far from finalized that it wouldn't make much sense to get into specific numbers for another month, as there should be many significant changes in the works for a number of classes, and hopefully an across the board nerf for basically every class' damage/healing output (or an across the board buff to both creeps and mobs).

I also realize that this server has always been fairly average in it's player base, but you also don't know the players/kinships that do not involve themselves with the general public on Nimrodel and those players are the ones that I am referring to as "some of the best."

It's true that there were some elite players during the Angmar and MoM scenes, but to say that there were/are no elite players during the post-MoM scene on Nimrodel is false.

Unless there was a major influx of new elite players in RoR, I'm quite familiar with the 3 or 4 'groups' (some were kins, some raid alliances, w/e) that kept to themselves, and were generally not involved in the 'general public' of Nim. Pooling the top players from these 3 or 4 groups, plus ones from the 2 or 3 more public circles that exist wouldn't make a single raid group of 12 on par with what individual kins put out for raids on some of the larger servers. None of this is to take away from people on Nim, its a simple case of smaller environments having less competition, less sharing of information, and generally less numbers committed to working on maximizing their class and group dynamics/strategies.