[Debate]Player's Council 2013(-14?)

[TheCrossbow]

You must not chat with many people and close yourself off from a lot of them as the the majority of people I've met over the years don't have the views that you're saying most people have. So what does that mean? I find it dangerous you're on the council as you're presenting from here I stand, a warped view to Turbine. I would have expected council members to acknowledge all playstyles and not be exclusionary. That's incredibly depressing and frustrating.

I've known many, many, many people who are interested in all that end game has to offer and they were willing and DID spend money in the store (extra LI slots, legacies, relic removal, pots, cosmetics, etc, etc.)

So.. what was your point other than to brush off a part of the population that you don't like and try to pretend they've done nothing to support the game over the years?

His words don't come across at all as "brushing off" anything. He is simply sharing what other people expressed to him. Just as you are expressing what others have expressed to you. Not sure what the hostility is about.

[kickman77]

the reality is the game has more casual content than anyone who is a true casual player will complete in a life time. To keep making that content and removing all other types of content is a huge injustice to the community.


There is no longer anything but casual content in lotro. This is a huge flaw, casual players follow hard core players to games. Why? because hard core players are passionate about games and give free Press to things they like. When LOTRO turned their back on us they turned their back on the game. That will be the legacy of Kate and sapience weather it is true or not.

Since the day turbine announced the " council" i tought it was useless and now after reading the comment of some members of the council i tink not only is useless( only a pr move from turbine) but that can even harm the game .
And top of all i read somewhere and in my server chat that some names in the council don't even play anymore.

and I agree totally with your post and there are people on the Council who have this view as well. As I stated earlier all playstyles are represented. I will give you a great example. When I was selected for the council, I had members on my server throw fits because I did not PvMP. I took it to heart. Literally. I resubbed and got my Hunter to rank 7, created a warg and BA on 2 different servers (to see the differences in servers) and got all 4 of them to rank 7. Now, that does not mean I have become an expert in PvMP, but it does mean that I am able to see the issues that people are fussing about and because I now have that experience I am able as a Council Member to use my voice based on that experience and work with the devs and other PvMP players on the council. There are members that did not raid at all, but now absolutely love it because of the same reasons. Being part of the Council has opened some of us up to other types of gameplay we had no interest in beforehand and showed us issues in each style. So we are trying to represent all play styles.

You may want to reconsider randomly insulting other players. Just a suggestion...

----------------------------------------
Ok, first off, WOW. I never expected this thread to get past 20, maybe 30 posts. This thread is actually teaching me a lot about the actions of the player's council.

Personally, I do think the PC is trying to help at Turbine, but the reason I think everyone is skeptical about them is because we don't really get reports on what they went over. A few things I would like to touch on, that I kinda agree with, would be:

1) More reports, more information, more transparency. I feel this is why most players are skeptical about the PC. We don't get reports saying, "We went over x, y, and z, but also talked about the possibility of throwing 1, 2, and 3 into that somewhere.

2) Don't defend Turbine. If you have an issue with something Turbine wants to add, and/or you see a major flaw, don't hesitate to speak up about it with the Turbine devs. Defending their ideas can be good sometimes, but at others, it is best you point out the flaws.

3) You have a voice, use it. At the end of the day, you guys are their to help Turbine make important decisions, and represent us as a playerbase. If they really ARE just using you as a marketing ploy(Which I doubt they are), then you need to tell them no. You guys signed up for the PC for a reason, and I'm pretty darn sure that reason wasn't to just sit around and take photos with the devs, for Turbine to use as a marketing ploy. Don't be afraid to criticize what the devs are doing. Don't hesitate to ask questions. What's the worst they can do? Throw you off the council?

I totally agree with all of these points except for number 2. As I stated in an earlier post, if I like something (as seen in Beta) it automatically becomes I am a shill for Turbine, when as people on my home server can tell you I am far from being. You have to understand that everyone has an opinion and it may differ from yours on any given subject. So, the Council will always fall into the trap if we like something or agree to it we would be considered shill's or Fan boys ect. There is no easy way out

I'm not sure I'm comfortable with this. Yes, state the concerns of the players, and no, don't become a Turbine side kick or a " yes man". I support totally arguing with Turbine. Sauron knows, they have made some bone headed decisions. I'm not debating with any of this.

But sometimes the players are wrong. Credit has be be given when it's due.

Well said and agreed.

You must not chat with many people and close yourself off from a lot of them as the the majority of people I've met over the years don't have the views that you're saying most people have. So what does that mean? I find it dangerous you're on the council as you're presenting from here I stand, a warped view to Turbine. I would have expected council members to acknowledge all playstyles and not be exclusionary. That's incredibly depressing and frustrating.

I've known many, many, many people who are interested in all that end game has to offer and they were willing and DID spend money in the store (extra LI slots, legacies, relic removal, pots, cosmetics, etc, etc.)

So.. what was your point other than to brush off a part of the population that you don't like and try to pretend they've done nothing to support the game over the years?

But, that is again why there are different players on the Council. These are the views he may be bringing to the table, that does not mean they are the same exact views as other members are bringing at any given time. He is not on my server and does not speak to the same people I do, so of course what views I am bringing will be different than his. That is why we have players from all play styles on the Council so no one voice can be louder than the others.


On a side note.. there are a few that are blatantly trying to de-rail this amazing thread and troll it. I ask that instead of interacting with those posters, or policing them, you just please report them and ask in the report that the thread is not closed because I find personally that this is one of the best threads on this forum and has opened my eyes on some views from players and hopefully fixed a few misconceptions along the way.

[Morons]

I'm sorry, but you are not going to get away with being dishonest about the numbers. I was there and watched a steady "improvement" in the number of people who were satisfied with the changes the more they had an opportunity to work with the new system AND saw that the developers were making the effort to work with us to achieve results that made them and us happy.
There were several attempts (polls) made to try and show Turbine that the majority was unhappy with the changes... but actually showed the exact opposite the longer the Beta process was allowed to do its job. Unfortunately, there are some people (like you) who just cannot fathom that people actually like the new system... despite all the evidence.



If you have a problem with something someone posted and it clearly breaks the rules, click on the little "report" button and let the mods do their jobs... don't stoop to the same level as the person breaking the rules and try to be the "forum police."

Now is you dishonest cause i was in beta and the polls weren't happy with the changes , thing get better when people who complain were dissmissed by sapience with his arrogant post that we don't count so the only people left to write on beta forum were the turbine good friend.
Sono he's not dishonest maybe he's you that trying to made him banned cause you don't agree with what he's saying like you Always do.

[Beaniemooch]

I'm sorry, but you are not going to get away with being dishonest about the numbers. I was there and watched a steady "improvement" in the number of people who were satisfied with the changes the more they had an opportunity to work with the new system AND saw that the developers were making the effort to work with us to achieve results that made them and us happy.
There were several attempts (polls) made to try and show Turbine that the majority was unhappy with the changes... but actually showed the exact opposite the longer the Beta process was allowed to do its job. Unfortunately, there are some people (like you) who just cannot fathom that people actually like the new system... despite all the evidence.

I was in beta as well, and no there wasn't a steady improvement in the number of people satisfied. There was a steady increase in the number of people saying the content wasn't ready for release as beta was about to end, but no increase in satisfaction.

[manstan]

The biggest killer to game quality; as I have said, is the deadline. When you push half cooked food out the door people are going to complain about it, and have every right to. Do it often enough and people come to expect it and quit eating at your restaurant.
Release it now and fix it later only works if you can fix it in a reasonable amount of time.

The only way to keep people coming back to your restaurant is to consistently serve good food.

[Glumposneak]

Not sure what you are reading but his post shows that what the majority of the players want/need from the game IS what Turbine seems to be providing... he is trying to say that the majority you come across in-game seem to be less interested in the "raiding" aspects of the game... but more interested in the "casual/roleplaying" aspects.

Nope, he's saying those he's spoken to have that opinion, I can truthfully say my experience is the complete opposite

Where in his post does he say this? Quote it specifically... or stop leveling empty accusations. (Starting to wonder if you aren't purposefully trying to get yourself "banned" at this rate Glumposneak... based on some things you've been doing lately. No need to go down this road.)

I'm simply using common sense and reading what he's saying.

I have no desire to get banned, that doesn't mean I wont say what I see.

You seem to be the one that keeps mentioning me being banned, please stop.

His line

Quite frankly, most of the Players I chat with, both in-game (on multiple servers) and in other venues, are completely opposed to many, if not most, of the positions held by the loudest complainers on these Forums!

implies to me that the complainers are a whining minority, you might interpret it differently, I don't.

I'm sorry, but you are not going to get away with being dishonest about the numbers. I was there and watched a steady "improvement" in the number of people who were satisfied with the changes the more they had an opportunity to work with the new system AND saw that the developers were making the effort to work with us to achieve results that made them and us happy.
There were several attempts (polls) made to try and show Turbine that the majority was unhappy with the changes... but actually showed the exact opposite the longer the Beta process was allowed to do its job. Unfortunately, there are some people (like you) who just cannot fathom that people actually like the new system... despite all the evidence.

Wrong, cant say it any differently.

Many people were put down both by a few vocal players on the PC, one mod in particular and a few others players in the first few rounds of beta and many many (myself included) stopped posting in the beta forum in the last few rounds due to this. Before we were all driven off (before the last couple of beta releases) what I say is totally true, I don't know after that as I gave up with it.

I did look at those polls and how you can say they showed that beggars belief. Every single one of them had the majority of posters disliking the changes. What they did show that towards the end, less and less people could be bothered to respond, and I'm talking about both those that liked the changes and those that hated the changes..

I know there are some people that love the changes, for example my old kin leader loves the changes. I get pretty tired of false accusations like this, at no point have I said people don't like the changes, I have always said many do like them and I have also said many people like big battles etc,

If you have a problem with something someone posted and it clearly breaks the rules, click on the little "report" button and let the mods do their jobs... don't stoop to the same level as the person breaking the rules and try to be the "forum police."

I didn't say I had a problem, I am just inquiring whether everyone is getting treated fairly, as per the moderator discussion thread, that said, by you saying that, aren't you doing exactly what your accusing me of?

[CosaNostraPizza]

The players counsel is a sham a tool to make the game Kate and Sapience want to make. They have a world view of how people should act and they seek to cram it down our throats here in the forum and in the game.

They drove away all the group players and raider over a 1-2 year period with very bad content wile at the same time creating a game environment were new players had a hard time fitting into or starting group play. Then they make a players council that is representative of a community 1/4 of what the active players use to be.


Kate and Sapience when you crunch your numbers take a look at total game time played in raid/skirmishes over the life of the game when people were at or in the top 10% of the level cap range. Then take a look at total time people spent in a fellows or raid in that same range. and get back to us.

yea most FTP players who don't make it out of archet or the shire may not group or raid but when you put thing in perspective the picture was very very different. You can make stats say anything. You can make the game FTP and have an influx of people who only play to level 7 that dwarf your current player bace and then say most people don't group or raid. You though your decisions made a conscious decision to kill your game.

The symptom of your failure (solo play in a mmo) is not the solution to your problem!



Sapience, I feel bad for any man who has to enforce a set of rules that will lead to his eventual down fall. That is a poor fate.

[TheCrossbow]

Now is you dishonest cause i was in beta and the polls weren't happy with the changes , thing get better when people who complain were dissmissed by sapience with his arrogant post that we don't count so the only people left to write on beta forum were the turbine good friend.
Sono he's not dishonest maybe he's you that trying to made him banned cause you don't agree with what he's saying like you Always do.

The reason Sapience posted the "arrogant" (to use your word) post was to get people to move off from trying to argue a point about the new system that wasn't going to change and wasn't up for debate.

Also, I remember exactly the trend that those "unofficial" polls had. Initially, there was a larger number of people expressing dissatisfaction. However, after Beta 3 or 4 (IIRC), that same "unofficial" poll began to show movement toward an improving attitude about the new system... that is of the people who bothered to respond.
If I was allowed to link to and/or copy from the Beta forums, I would be happy to link you to each one to prove my point.

[TheCrossbow]

Nope, he's saying those he's spoken to have that opinion, I can truthfully say my experience is the complete opposite

That is not what you said at all in the post I responded to. You claimed that his post... " shows up exactly why the PC shouldn't exist and what most peoples complaints about it are." Perhaps you should go back and re-read your own words to make sure you know what you said?

I'm simply using common sense and reading what he's saying.

I have no desire to get banned, that doesn't mean I wont say what I see.

You seem to be the one that keeps mentioning me being banned, please stop.

Sorry, but this excuse doesn't fly.

You said... "Your post comes across as basically telling all those that want the things many many of us are leaving (or have left) due to the lack of, to simply shut up as we're a whining minority. In beta, the people complaining about the changes etc, talking individual posters, not number of posts or who shouted loudest, outnumbered those that liked the changes by at least 10 to one, and many council members spoke to us in a way that makes your above quoted post, pleasant."

You are "seeing" something in his post that isn't there. How exactly does it help your case to literally be putting words into someone's mouth they didn't say... and imply things that their post doesn't even come close to implying?

And, the only reason I mentioned that you seem to be trying to "get banned" is because on several different occasions you mention it as if you are "waiting" for one of the mods to break out the "ban hammer."
I am trying to talk you off that self-defeating ledge. If you are speaking your mind truly and honestly without malice, the mods won't do anything because you aren't breaking any rules.

I didn't say I had a problem, I am just inquiring whether everyone is getting treated fairly, as per the moderator discussion thread, that said, by you saying that, aren't you doing exactly what your accusing me of?

What you were doing was "throwing the rulebook" at another poster. If what the other person has posted is in violation of the rules, you click the "report" button and let the mods deal with it. That is the "adult" way of dealing with it. You let the "refs" deal with the infraction (if necessary) and move on with your life.

[bobbylobs]

The reason Sapience posted the "arrogant" (to use your word) post was to get people to move off from trying to argue a point about the new system that wasn't going to change and wasn't up for debate.

Also, I remember exactly the trend that those "unofficial" polls had. Initially, there was a larger number of people expressing dissatisfaction. However, after Beta 3 or 4 (IIRC), that same "unofficial" poll began to show movement toward an improving attitude about the new system... that is of the people who bothered to respond.
If I was allowed to link to and/or copy from the Beta forums, I would be happy to link you to each one to prove my point.

If you mean it went from a 75% disliking of the trait trees in betas 1 and 2 , to about 60-65% in the last betas, which it very much did, then your right it did get more positive, but all that means is it went from loathing of the trait trees to a damn fine dislking of them, doesnt sound like the beta testers liked them too much either way does it.

And as many many people have pointed out time and time again a LOT of people who were fed up with how the beta was conducted and sick of being called "toxic, doomsayers and whiners"either left the beta or stopped posting alltogther.I personally had 4 friends leave between betas 2-4 after being attacked for posting their negative thoughts and 2 of them had less than 10 posts in total even though they had been playing for years, the only reason they posted, is after Sapience made the ridiculous claim that only unhappy people post, and the happy people were silent (completely ignoring the fact it was a beta and thats what people were there to do). So even though a lot of people who were vocally unhappy left and stopped posting it still turned out that 60-65% of people disliked the trait tress just a week or so b4 the nda dropped.

Also, people were not trying to"argue a point" they were leaving their feedback on the biggest change that has happened to this game in years, the fact that they were told to shut up, stop talking about it and move onto something else DURING A BETA TEST is laughable.No one was told to shut up and move on when they came on and said good things about the changes, but then again there were so few of those posts they could have easily been missed

[Elrantiri]

Also, people were not trying to"argue a point" they were leaving their feedback on the biggest change that has happened to this game in years, the fact that they were told to shut up, stop talking about it and move onto something else DURING A BETA TEST is laughable.No one was told to shut up and move on when they came on and said good things about the changes, but then again there were so few of those posts they could have easily been missed

That highly depended on how people gave negative feedback. Feedback like "this sucks" or "we want old trait setup back" was and is simply useless to Turbine at that point. I saw loads of posts of players not moving past that bit and actually try to describe which parts of the trait trees they did not like so Turbine could get some specific pointers on what could use some polishing/changes.
I had several issues about the Captain class that I didn't like, and by stating which things I didn't like and why I didn't like them in the appropriate thread, the very most of those issues were fixed.

[Beaniemooch]

That highly depended on how people gave negative feedback. Feedback like "this sucks" or "we want old trait setup back" was and is simply useless to Turbine at that point. I saw loads of posts of players not moving past that bit and actually try to describe which parts of the trait trees they did not like so Turbine could get some specific pointers on what could use some polishing/changes.
I had several issues about the Captain class that I didn't like, and by stating which things I didn't like and why I didn't like them in the appropriate thread, the very most of those issues were fixed.

You were lucky - because the minstrel dev was basically non-existent even though we posted up stats and numbers and feedback and requests and bugs. We were told it would be fixed after it went live. But that's not what this thread is about.

I do agree a lot of people in beta quit posting because they were attacked. And one of the first to lead the early attack was a player council member telling us if we didn't like change then move on and don't let the door hit us in the backside on the way out. I'm not saying all are like that, they're not. But it was a very early indicator that there was little support for people who were not fans of the change. I would also have to say that the majority of posts from player council were overwhelmingly positive and telling us we should give it all a chance, it was for our own good. I gave it a chance, I still think it's as horrid as I did in the beginning. I'm sorry, but I just don't see what good the player council did for anybody into more than cosmetics and fluff.

[CosaNostraPizza]

That highly depended on how people gave negative feedback. Feedback like "this sucks" or "we want old trait setup back" was and is simply useless to Turbine at that point. I saw loads of posts of players not moving past that bit and actually try to describe which parts of the trait trees they did not like so Turbine could get some specific pointers on what could use some polishing/changes.
I had several issues about the Captain class that I didn't like, and by stating which things I didn't like and why I didn't like them in the appropriate thread, the very most of those issues were fixed.

When someone feels violated do you ask then what part of being violated they like? Maybe they don't like it all? maybe if they liked any of it they would would have shared it.

Are people not allowed to express that they do no like an idea at all?


The change was made because turbine is still working under the tragically flawed theory that the game is too hard an unassailable.

[Ilhsul]

Quite frankly, most of the Players I chat with, both in-game (on multiple servers) and in other venues, are completely opposed to many, if not most, of the positions held by the loudest complainers on these Forums!
They have no interest in Raiding, PvMP or End-Game and consider that Turbine devotes entirely too many scarce resources to the Moors and End-Game activities!
They don't have problems with the game crashing continually.
They don't have problems with Mounted Combat.
Very few have participated in Epic Battles. (Yes, that means very few have purchased the Helm's Deep Expansion.)
However, they do have problems with the /Music system.
They do want changes in Housing and Crafting.
They do want more cosmetic outfits and more mounts.
And, they are willing to spend Turbine Points or Mithril Coins for them!

HOLY COW!!!

What an unbelievably dismissive and antagonistic post.

Couldn't you at least pretend you're not completely biased and care about more playstyles than yours and your kinships? Are you even playing the same game as the rest of us?

How depressing reading this from a council member, seriously!

[TheCrossbow]

If you mean it went from a 75% disliking of the trait trees in betas 1 and 2 , to about 60-65% in the last betas, which it very much did, then your right it did get more positive, but all that means is it went from loathing of the trait trees to a damn fine dislking of them, doesnt sound like the beta testers liked them too much either way does it.

To be consistent, I will have to challenge your numbers. Please source where you get your numbers. On numerous occasions and with many people, I made the point that those who responded to that "unofficial poll" were probably "few in number" compared with all of the total feedback Turbine was receiving by various methods.

All we know is... some people like it... some people dislike it.... and I'm betting most of them won't really care one way or another (just a simple fact that there are some who will go wherever the wind takes them).

And as many many people have pointed out time and time again a LOT of people who were fed up with how the beta was conducted and sick of being called "toxic, doomsayers and whiners"either left the beta or stopped posting alltogther.I personally had 4 friends leave between betas 2-4 after being attacked for posting their negative thoughts and 2 of them had less than 10 posts in total even though they had been playing for years, the only reason they posted, is after Sapience made the ridiculous claim that only unhappy people post, and the happy people were silent (completely ignoring the fact it was a beta and thats what people were there to do). So even though a lot of people who were vocally unhappy left and stopped posting it still turned out that 60-65% of people disliked the trait tress just a week or so b4 the nda dropped.

I think we need to take a moment to define what "attacked" means. There are quite a few people who utilize these forums on regular basis who tend to overreact when someone even dares to ask any questions of them. There seems to be an unwillingness to accept that you can't just say whatever you want and never be challenged... especially when your facts are wrong - which often causes your opinions to be wrong.

Also, people were not trying to"argue a point" they were leaving their feedback on the biggest change that has happened to this game in years, the fact that they were told to shut up, stop talking about it and move onto something else DURING A BETA TEST is laughable.No one was told to shut up and move on when they came on and said good things about the changes, but then again there were so few of those posts they could have easily been missed

Yes, there were people trying to argue a point about the "point cost" for out of spec traits. I remember that thread specifically... and it was (I believe) the thread which was the catalyst for Sapience posting what he did.

The only people who were told to "shut up and move on" where the people who just wouldn't let certain things drop... even after those issues were discussed and a decision was made. While I didn't get around all the forums, it looked to me like the places in the beta forums where honest discussions were happening on other topics kept going on... and still go on to this day. Some people just didn't like the decisions that were made and set out on a campaign to continue raising cane about it.

And, for what it's worth, Sapience made it plain and clear that all of the "rules" governing the forums would be even more enforced during the beta process. Some people just chose not to heed that warning.

[TheMadCat]

You were lucky - because the minstrel dev was basically non-existent even though we posted up stats and numbers and feedback and requests and bugs. We were told it would be fixed after it went live. But that's not what this thread is about.

I do agree a lot of people in beta quit posting because they were attacked. And one of the first to lead the early attack was a player council member telling us if we didn't like change then move on and don't let the door hit us in the backside on the way out. I'm not saying all are like that, they're not. But it was a very early indicator that there was little support for people who were not fans of the change. I would also have to say that the majority of posts from player council were overwhelmingly positive and telling us we should give it all a chance, it was for our own good. I gave it a chance, I still think it's as horrid as I did in the beginning. I'm sorry, but I just don't see what good the player council did for anybody into more than cosmetics and fluff.

In terms of tangible products direct from the Player Council what more can you really expect from them? You can't honestly expect a random group of people with more likely than not little to no experience in this particular industry and few ideas of the inner workings and long term goals of Turbine to be qualified enough to have any amount of influence on core design choices or the short term release schedules. It's a focus group and because of that I'm fine with it, honestly I don't see why anyone wouldn't be fine with it.

[Valamar]

There is no longer anything but casual content in lotro. This is a huge flaw, casual players follow hard core players to games. Why? because hard core players are passionate about games and give free Press to things they like. When LOTRO turned their back on us they turned their back on the game. That will be the legacy of Kate and sapience weather it is true or not.

You have the reality completely backwards.

"Hard Core" players have NEVER played LOTRO nor were they "there first."

So called, "Hard-Core gamers" heard all of the buzz about the LOTRO MMORPG and decided they had to follow along.
-- Only in 2005 when LOTRO was conceived, those "Hard Core Gamers" were playing Legend of Zelda.

LOTRO has ALWAYS been populated by fans of Tolkien, people who wanted to experience Middle-earth -- NOT hard-core gamers.
This past fall, 43,000 individuals enrolled in the Coursera LOTRO/MMO course -- solely because it was about the Lord of the Rings.
Over half of those enrolling had never played ANY MMO or computer game of any kind before.
And yes, those are hard numbers from Coursera, unlike the speculative numbers about accounts and logins from various sources.

The ONLY reason that there is PvMP in LOTRO is because back in 2005, that was how the industry defined an MMORPG.
PvMP is completely "lore-breaking" in the context of Middle-Earth.

Another myth: The "free press" generated is only available on Hard-Core websites -- sites the Casual Player never even heard of, let alone visits regularly.

[Calta]

That highly depended on how people gave negative feedback. Feedback like "this sucks" or "we want old trait setup back" was and is simply useless to Turbine at that point. I saw loads of posts of players not moving past that bit and actually try to describe which parts of the trait trees they did not like so Turbine could get some specific pointers on what could use some polishing/changes.
I had several issues about the Captain class that I didn't like, and by stating which things I didn't like and why I didn't like them in the appropriate thread, the very most of those issues were fixed.

Sorry, but that was not true for other classes. Captains hunters and guards had a very different experience from minstrels, for example. We had 3 dev responses in 3 months but numerous apologists who hadn't played a mini even, were telling us to like it or lump it and that we were just plain wrong, from the rah!rah! group. The minstrel threads were almost unfailingly polite, specific, and detailed in feedback (parses, tooltips, dummy tests,) and several of us were told to 'go play elsewhere' , even when posting non emotional data only, by these same few PC members and by the same several posters (who are saying much the same still) in this thread.


Valamar

You have the reality completely backwards.

I'd ask for your hard core data -not anecdotal evidence about what the kin you join and the GLFF posters you notice think-after all, a self selected affinity group is not a valid objective survey, anymore than the raid/instance loving self selected affinity groups are. So your opinions about MMO history, what LOTRO players are like, and do like to do, is no more valid than anyone else's withut rigourous academic peer reviewed research. You haven't provided that.

As for the point about Coursera-why would you even use this fallacious argument?
1. It's an academic course-I would have thought nearly 50% gamers is way above average for a course of any type. Even one on games based on books.
2. As we don't know age/gender and other bias factors in that data -you can conclude no more about those potential LOTRO players than you can from log-ins. The two sets may intersect-but what that sub-set think/like in a game is not available as hard data.
3. This is not a binary choice-despite you and your ilk trying to make it one:
eg I love Lord of the Rings. I had never played another MMO before this one. I am older, female and not in the 'usual' gaming demographic. I love to raid. I want more complex group content.

As a PC member you are required to at least acknowledge my existance as a player (and others like me) rather than dismissing me because i don't fit with your self selected data.


It becomes clearer as this thread continues for the reasons the game is heading where it is, and the reason many of us don't feel comfortable with the way the focus group, sees itself, the game, or other players who do not fit their affinity group. The fact that the tone from some PC members is increasingly hostile while most of us are being extremely civil back is also a worry. (This maybe only because we are too aware that the ban hammer hovers over the whiny 'vocal minority' but not old ducks or PC members apparentlly: either way the attacks seem one sided to me. But I am wiling to admit personal bias.....unlike some.)

IN workplaces, Creating 'In groups' and 'out groups' is a great way for management to divide and conquer the staff while introducing unpleasant changes. Read any book on Organisational Behaviour to see what the outcome of this strategy is in most cases. Then watch what has happened here. Text book stuff.

[CosaNostraPizza]

I am no expert on the subject but sociology and the study of groups has been something I have followed since I attended university a number of years back. It is part of the reason I play MMO's I am fascinated buy how we interact in them. I know what focus groups are how to form them and the role individuals and archetypes play in groups in general. I know how to gather data and make it tell a story. From what I have observed over the last couple of years I would wager that turbine has been miss using and misinterpreting data to achieve a personal design goal. Who at turbine i can only speculate. But they are trying to imprint values and control structures in game and in this forum that are ticking time bombs. I just don't think they understand the powers they are messing with. Look at the changes to loot, class skills and group interaction and motivation and tell me they have a clue with a straight face.


They are still blaming the core mechanics and "difficulty" of the game not their ability as developers to teach potential customers about their game and how to play it and enjoy what they created. This from a game were auto attack is now the default skill level and balancing tech. They need to look inward and stop blaming the past dev's and current unhappy posters for their incompetence.


I just started playing another MMO that does a great job of incorporating videos and media to teach you how to play and tell you what the mechanics of the game are. I would have love to see this game spend time money and effort on developing our class trainers and adding media, quest and content to teach us about our class rather than spending 2x the effort trying to remake the classes wile at the same time still having the same fundamental problems but only magnified with a pissed off and alienated customer core.

[manstan]

This has gone beyond absurd and is well in to the ridicules.

"I'm right and I have the proof" ya, the cigaret companies were right and had the proof cigarets were nether harmful nor addictive.
If I want to prove Yamaha is the best bike in America I will go to a dirt bike race, not a motorcycle show.
If I want to prove I am right all I have to do is only ask people that share my opinion.

"Quite frankly, most of the Players I chat with, both in-game (on multiple servers) and in other venues, are completely opposed to many, if not most, of the positions held by the loudest complainers on these Forums!"

Oh then where are they to argue against us? If they want their voice heard then they need to get on the forum, other wise all it is is second hand info.

"They have no interest in Raiding, PvMP or End-Game and consider that Turbine devotes entirely too many scarce resources to the Moors and End-Game activities!"

Go to a raid camp and ask the same question, bet you get an entirely different answer. If I want a specific response I just need to ask the people I know will give it to me.

"They don't have problems with the game crashing continually."

Nether do I, but that in no way makes it less of an issue for those that do.

"They don't have problems with Mounted Combat."

I don't have issues with mounted combat ether. I'm not there yet.

"Very few have participated in Epic Battles. (Yes, that means very few have purchased the Helm's Deep Expansion.)"

Then you are talking to the wrong people.

"However, they do have problems with the /Music system."

The music system? Isn't that like complaining about the sound system in a car that is wrecked and burning?

"They do want changes in Housing and Crafting.
They do want more cosmetic outfits and more mounts.
And, they are willing to spend Turbine Points or Mithril Coins for them!"

Whom are you talking to? The middleearth Barby brigade? That is all fluff and cosmetics, has nothing to do with game play.
Maybe the next time you talk to people you should talk to people that play the game, not the ones that log in to play house. This is not middlearth Second life, if that is what they want guess what? There is a middlearth themed land in SL, go there and play house.

Please do not try to turn my game in middlearth farm town.

[rosey21]

This has gone beyond absurd and is well in to the ridicules.

This I agree with.

I foresee this & other threads getting the kabosh come tomorrow morning.

[kickman77]

This has gone beyond absurd and is well in to the ridicules.

"I'm right and I have the proof" ya, the cigaret companies were right and had the proof cigarets were nether harmful nor addictive.
If I want to prove Yamaha is the best bike in America I will go to a dirt bike race, not a motorcycle show.
If I want to prove I am right all I have to do is only ask people that share my opinion.

"Quite frankly, most of the Players I chat with, both in-game (on multiple servers) and in other venues, are completely opposed to many, if not most, of the positions held by the loudest complainers on these Forums!"

Oh then where are they to argue against us? If they want their voice heard then they need to get on the forum, other wise all it is is second hand info.

"They have no interest in Raiding, PvMP or End-Game and consider that Turbine devotes entirely too many scarce resources to the Moors and End-Game activities!"

Go to a raid camp and ask the same question, bet you get an entirely different answer. If I want a specific response I just need to ask the people I know will give it to me.

"They don't have problems with the game crashing continually."

Nether do I, but that in no way makes it less of an issue for those that do.

"They don't have problems with Mounted Combat."

I don't have issues with mounted combat ether. I'm not there yet.

"Very few have participated in Epic Battles. (Yes, that means very few have purchased the Helm's Deep Expansion.)"

Then you are talking to the wrong people.

"However, they do have problems with the /Music system."

The music system? Isn't that like complaining about the sound system in a car that is wrecked and burning?

"They do want changes in Housing and Crafting.
They do want more cosmetic outfits and more mounts.
And, they are willing to spend Turbine Points or Mithril Coins for them!"

Whom are you talking to? The middleearth Barby brigade? That is all fluff and cosmetics, has nothing to do with game play.
Maybe the next time you talk to people you should talk to people that play the game, not the ones that log in to play house. This is not middlearth Second life, if that is what they want guess what? There is a middlearth themed land in SL, go there and play house.

Please do not try to turn my game in middlearth farm town.

And as I stated earlier in the thread that is why there are different views on the Council. That may be the feedback he is getting, but it surely is not the same as Myself or other members of the council are getting. We all have different view points and outlooks and are able to have discussions (sometimes yes they get a little heated) but they remain focused and to the point. So saying it is absurd to players who do not want to do the same things you want to do may be the exact thing those players are saying about the group of people you play with. They may think raiding is stupid or PvMP is dumb. Maybe they want to enjoy having a chat with a friend in the prancing Pony, or decorate their house with Tapestries from Rohan. That does not make them any less of a player than those who rush to level cap, raid as hard as possible for the best gear and than go PvMP. You are all players and each play style deserves equal representation which is what the Player Council is. So when you attack a certain group by calling them a barby brigade, and say they are playing house... you may not understand that those players have made just as much an investment into this game as you have, if not more on some aspects.

[manstan]

Yes, and look where trying to please everyone has gotten this game to. Just more people hacked off about more stuff.
You know they can't please everyone, it's absurd to even try. LOTRO just gets more vanilla with every build. You like raspberry ripple, too bad you got vanilla.

"So when you attack a certain group by calling them a barby brigade, and say they are playing house".

But that is not what this game is about. There are games out there for that stuff. Please don't ruin my game trying make it please the Barby brigade. LOTRO is not about playing house.

That would be as absurd as me demanding they put all their time in to finishing the fishing hobby as well as adding several new ones. I may fish playing LOTRO but I am not playing LOTRO to fish. I may have a house in LOTRO but I am not playing LOTRO to play house. If that is what they want please inform trion to make a Middlearth second life for people that want to play house and dress up. But please don't sacrifice the game to something that is just fluff.
I expect the next expansion to be middlearth dream home.

[CosaNostraPizza]

And as I stated earlier in the thread that is why there are different views on the Council. That may be the feedback he is getting, but it surely is not the same as Myself or other members of the council are getting. We all have different view points and outlooks and are able to have discussions (sometimes yes they get a little heated) but they remain focused and to the point. So saying it is absurd to players who do not want to do the same things you want to do may be the exact thing those players are saying about the group of people you play with. They may think raiding is stupid or PvMP is dumb. Maybe they want to enjoy having a chat with a friend in the prancing Pony, or decorate their house with Tapestries from Rohan. That does not make them any less of a player than those who rush to level cap, raid as hard as possible for the best gear and than go PvMP. You are all players and each play style deserves equal representation which is what the Player Council is. So when you attack a certain group by calling them a barby brigade, and say they are playing house... you may not understand that those players have made just as much an investment into this game as you have, if not more on some aspects.

I think we are done here. LOTRO is rewriting the ending of the books to fit the "casual" nature of player base. Instead of an epic battle of life and death to destroy the 1 ring in the fires of mount doom we are just going to make volume 3 tea party with Sauron. Alternate endings are in vouge any way and it is sure to stir up a buzz.


The end.


EDIT: If i get a perma ban tomorrow please let it be for this post. even though it is not a true violation the hipocrocy of it all would be fitting.

[kickman77]

Yes, and look where trying to please everyone has gotten this game to. Just more people hacked off about more stuff.
You know they can't please everyone, it's absurd to even try. LOTRO just gets more vanilla with every build. You like raspberry ripple, too bad you got vanilla.

"So when you attack a certain group by calling them a barby brigade, and say they are playing house".

But that is not what this game is about. There are games out there for that stuff. Please don't ruin my game trying make it please the Barby brigade. LOTRO is not about playing house.

That would be as absurd as me demanding they put all their time in to finishing the fishing hobby as well as adding several new ones. I may fish playing LOTRO but I am not playing LOTRO to fish. I may have a house in LOTRO but I am not playing LOTRO to play house. If that is what they want please inform trion to make a Middlearth second life for people that want to play house and dress up. But please don't sacrifice the game to something that is just fluff.
I expect the next expansion to be middlearth dream home.

I do agree that it is getting more vanilla with every build, I honestly do. But at the same time, there are many facets to the game that others enjoy more than I do. I mean in all honesty, my past few night have been running OD raid and BG raid on different toons and when done, to relax I go and pull out my lute by the South Bree stable and play a few tunes. Its one of those things I enjoy and would love to see expanded at one point. Doesn't mean that is on the top of my gripe list but it is one of the aspects of the game I whole heartedly enjoy. Another kinnie loves to go fishing after a raid, it calms him the way music relaxes me. Another kinnie has been playing for 3 years and just hit 85 because they like to explore and collect housing items and complete every single quest and deed in each area before they move on. So just because you do not participate in those activities as I said above does not mean they are not important to other players of the game. This is not your game, simply a game you play and hopefully enjoy doing so. The same as every other player who logs in.