What has happened to Lotro ?

[mrkenneth4life]

What has happened to Lotro ? Where has this feeling of doing something epic gone too?

I rememeber when I just started playing this game I was overblown with the urge to get to the end level zones like Angmar and later on Moria. They had something special about them, you could battle a Balrog, the instances in Moria were so much fun, the places you've went too looked astonishing, the music was just awesome. I remember I couldn't wait to enter Moria once I was lvl 50, the feelings I had when I entered that place, I almost couldn't control my excitement because it looked superb. Besides that there were new voice actors for the dwarves, a variation in the mobs, I miss those days. The expansions of Moria was something they worked on for some time, somewhere far before the annual release of expansions.

I don't have this feeling at all with the newer expansions. In my opinion Isengard whas a step down from Moria and Rohan has been a step down from Isengard. I didn't even bother to play Helms Deep because of the user reviews. There is just no special feeling about the expansions no more. The fun instances are gone as well. As from I've read the music sucks in Helms Deep, so did it in Isengard, only Rohan was a lot better.

It's like the developers aren't as excited anymore, can we blame Warner Bros for taking over? In some way we can I think. The central idea of the game now is making money, okay it was like that before WB took over but you did at least get enough for the price you paid, you'd feel satisfied when you bought something, now it's just pay more, get less.

So I really miss playing Lotro, but I won't play it again until it gets better, I just don't have fun in the newer area's. Let's hope when they redo some older content now that some of the things get better.

thanks for reading

[interactii]

I think you have to keep in mind a few things about the landscape of LOTRO. Keep in mind that LOTRO is a game designed to make money.

When Isenguard came out, most of the people who would buy the expansion where level 65. In fact, it had been so long without an expansion that most of the player base was at or near cap. Isengard was a pretty darn awesome expansion. It very much followed the Moria model, with more skills or significantly improved skills, new gear, new raid and instances.

It was however, an expansion for the endgame, in a time when getting to the endgame certainly was work, but something many people had already done.

ROR saw a pretty huge shift. During this time, or perhaps because of it, the game focus shifted away from the endgame. We saw a strong change that was an attempt to try to not only open up content for lower levels (by having the erabor raids and instances be runnable at level 20), but also the start of a rewards shift. Rewards were easier to get, though still somewhat difficult to get the best rewards.

Why the shift? Because the game population is changing. People come and people go, but the number of people at cap no longer made up the majority of people playing the game. Because the smaller staff size that turbine has had for a while dedicated to LOTRO, there just isn't enough money in making content that served only one group, the endgame player. The team isn't big enough, and even if it was, the game is too big to add content for all level ranges. Also, it was an attempt to try to make the non-elite players feel more empowered. Its a game, its supposed to be fun.

HD was more of the same thing, only some of the rules went out the window. More of the same "content for all" with big battles, but an even more randomized loot system, and infact loot that is so flat in design there are basically two tiers, and anyone can get any loot. Why wasn't the music as good? Because the music was much cheaper. The whole expansion was cheaper, except for in the actual cost.

Now that we are at HD, the only elements we have left of what the game used to be like is the art direction, which is still beautiful thoughout HD, There is some neat innovation in the BB system, even though its still terribly bug ridden, and it might as well be another game rather than LOTRO, and the epic quest is just about as good as it always was, despite now being behind a paywall for free to players.

I wonder if the producer's letter was always planned to contain the announcement about expansions, or if it was driven by lower than expected sales. Either way, I really hope that all the work that went into an expansion will instead go into fixing the many bugs in the game, fixing the aging systems, and developing content that actually appeals to players, like we used to have.

[FelaX]

There is no surprise that this happened. For me the game became easy and generic. Instances don't pose a challenge and even the loot has the same statistics now.
Why? As a European I'd say Americans love money that's why. In the very old days you had entrepreneurs now you have businessmen. The difference. The entrepreneur was proud on his product and did everything to satify the customer. The customer came first and the money came second. Now you have businessmen who had the idea of making lower quality products for more money resulting in more profit. They do not care about the customer except if they can rob them of more of their hard earned cash by convicning them to buy products they don't actually need.

Turbine is such a company. All they care about is money, money, money. It often happens when you need a GM it takes over 15 minutes to get an answer. If you're doing group content it's likely the group already disbanded. If you do get a GM it's often ticket closed with a auto generated answer or they say they can't help you. Customer service costs money. Less service means more profit. The less time you spend on a customer, the less staff you need, the more profit you make. Do the math. Look at how buggy big battles are. They're riddled with it. Do they care. No because if they did care the evidence would be a polished game. The enormous amount of bugs is evidence of their non caring for their customers. I guess we've become accustomed to bad service. I cannot even name a big company that has excellent customer service, in your own language, that know what they're doing and fix whatever issue you have to your satisfaction.

[kidnova78]

There is no surprise that this happened. For me the game became easy and generic. Instances don't pose a challenge and even the loot has the same statistics now.
Why? As a European I'd say Americans love money that's why. In the very old days you had entrepreneurs now you have businessmen. The difference. The entrepreneur was proud on his product and did everything to satify the customer. The customer came first and the money came second. Now you have businessmen who had the idea of making lower quality products for more money resulting in more profit. They do not care about the customer except if they can rob them of more of their hard earned cash by convicning them to buy products they don't actually need.

Turbine is such a company. All they care about is money, money, money. It often happens when you need a GM it takes over 15 minutes to get an answer. If you're doing group content it's likely the group already disbanded. If you do get a GM it's often ticket closed with a auto generated answer or they say they can't help you. Customer service costs money. Less service means more profit. The less time you spend on a customer, the less staff you need, the more profit you make. Do the math. Look at how buggy big battles are. They're riddled with it. Do they care. No because if they did care the evidence would be a polished game. The enormous amount of bugs is evidence of their non caring for their customers. I guess we've become accustomed to bad service. I cannot even name a big company that has excellent customer service, in your own language, that know what they're doing and fix whatever issue you have to your satisfaction.

So greed is an American phenomenon? Interesting.

[anthonyx]

I agree to some point with the OP. Right now hitting 95 is not that important. As all my toons were at 85 I took my time with my main. The good part is the Epic quest is outstanding. You get to be part of something special and interact with main Tolkien characters , Gandalf, Legolas, Gimli and other important character of Rohan. I dislike how they tied landscape quest to the Epic book though. That is because after going through the Epic books once doing it multiple times is extremely overkill. So if you are a lore fan then going through HD once is amazing. The landscape itself is dynamic. I am glad that I did buy HD.

Now if you are looking end game them you will most likely be disappointed. Personally the Big Battles are not that great. First of all they are so buggy that many times I had to leave. With patch 12.1 some of the bugs were fixed and some new ones appeared. It made for a very bad experience that is hard for me to shake. Also be aware that the new aggro management system makes roles in the BB nearly useless unless you are a healer. So instead of grinding for jewelry in BB I use crafted jewelry.

Helms Deep was released as a very unpolished expansion. Class balancing, skill fixes, adjustments are all on the way. So eventually HD will shine a little bit better. But if I didn't go through HD I would have regretted it. I think those who are lotro/Tolkien fans will really enjoy the being a part of the story (sure you have to suspend lore from time to time). In my opinion that alone was worth the $40. (I think there is a sell until the 29th).

[FelaX]

So greed is an American phenomenon? Interesting.

Nope. Wording was a bit bad I must admit but english is only my second language so can't help misunderstandings sometimes. Everyone loves money.

[kidnova78]

Nope. Wording was a bit bad I must admit but english is only my second language so can't help misunderstandings sometimes. Everyone loves money.

No problem, I understand communicating in multiple languages can often lead to misinterpretations. Thanks for the clarification.

[dorablu]

I agree to some point with the OP. Right now hitting 95 is not that important. As all my toons were at 85 I took my time with my main. The good part is the Epic quest is outstanding. You get to be part of something special and interact with main Tolkien characters , Gandalf, Legolas, Gimli and other important character of Rohan. I dislike how they tied landscape quest to the Epic book though. That is because after going through the Epic books once doing it multiple times is extremely overkill. So if you are a lore fan then going through HD once is amazing. The landscape itself is dynamic. I am glad that I did buy HD.

Now if you are looking end game them you will most likely be disappointed. Personally the Big Battles are not that great. First of all they are so buggy that many times I had to leave. With patch 12.1 some of the bugs were fixed and some new ones appeared. It made for a very bad experience that is hard for me to shake. Also be aware that the new aggro management system makes roles in the BB nearly useless unless you are a healer. So instead of grinding for jewelry in BB I use crafted jewelry.

Helms Deep was released as a very unpolished expansion. Class balancing, skill fixes, adjustments are all on the way. So eventually HD will shine a little bit better. But if I didn't go through HD I would have regretted it. I think those who are lotro/Tolkien fans will really enjoy the being a part of the story (sure you have to suspend lore from time to time). In my opinion that alone was worth the $40. (I think there is a sell until the 29th).

... the bolded (my edit) part of the post says more than I could about how far LoTRO has strayed from the wonderfully immersive world I spent hours a day marveling at and enjoying. Unfortunately, even for this rabid Tolkien fan and Lifetimer, it has become just a game. And, at that, not the top game on my list rather than the only one. I appreciate the devs that have hung on and fought for their vision in the meetings and brainstorming sessions. They are why I still play.

[Stepbrother]

. In the very old days you had entrepreneurs now you have businessmen. The difference. The entrepreneur was proud on his product and did everything to satify the customer. The customer came first and the money came second. Now you have businessmen who had the idea of making lower quality products for more money resulting in more profit. They do not care about the customer except if they can rob them of more of their hard earned cash by convicning them to buy products they don't actually need.

I don't know if you read this somewhere else or if it's your original wording but I have never heard this idea stated so eloquently. For someone that says English is a second language, you sure use English to it's extent. Well said.

[Owchi]

In the very old days you had entrepreneurs now you have businessmen. The difference. The entrepreneur was proud on his product and did everything to satify the customer. The customer came first and the money came second. Now you have businessmen who had the idea of making lower quality products for more money resulting in more profit. They do not care about the customer except if they can rob them of more of their hard earned cash by convicning them to buy products they don't actually need.

This is false, the "good old days" are a myth, this is hardly new and getting something for nothing (or as little as possible) is as old as time itself.

[kalrhael]

That's what I feel also. The allure of lotro seems like it's gone, as much as I love the world and the artists behind it, there just isn't that glimmer anymore, and I'm not even strictly speaking in terms of nostalgia, I liked the game up until HD, it was my main MMO ever since f2p was launched, but now it's just a mangled shadow of it's former self. My favorite class has been utterly ruined and even if/when landscape balance comes, my lore-master just doesn't feel right being a one-faceted dps machine.

It's a shame becaue I don't think future mmos set in middle-earth will come as close to its original essence as lotro did. Mark my words they will all be strict action games with a dodge mechanic, which is fine for the kiddies but I don't think that's something that could really hold us older folk the way lotro had, imo it was a once in a lifetime gem.

Ah well, life is about chapters, and for me lotros chapter has ended.

[Wof]

This is false, the "good old days" are a myth, this is hardly new and getting something for nothing (or as little as possible) is as old as time itself.

They aren't a myth, that is an excuse used by people who are out to fleece other people. People used to care about the quality of the products they produced, their reputation depended on that quality. Now they try to make a profit fast and rpeutation be damned. Just look at Turbine's reputation, it's awful and has become a byword for breaking more than they fix. The phrase "It's been Turbined" didn't just come about for nothing you know!

[Frieja]

It's a shame becaue I don't think future mmos set in middle-earth will come as close to its original essence as lotro did. Mark my words they will all be strict action games with a dodge mechanic, which is fine for the kiddies but I don't think that's something that could really hold us older folk the way lotro had, imo it was a once in a lifetime gem.

Ah well, life is about chapters, and for me lotros chapter has ended.

I could not have worded this better myself.

I don't have another game on my play list; LOTRO was it. I'm reading more. Started watching a TV show that I follow every week, lol.

I'm in Wildermore with my main right now. I thought I had finished all the quests there, but realized that the bugged "Remembering Thrymm" instance was gating a heck of a lot of quests behind it. After figuring out a strategy to complete the instance in spite of the bug, I've finally found some more quests there. That was a couple weeks ago though, and I just haven't really cared to log back in to finish Wildermore, let alone start Western Rohan.

I did just create a new character on Landroval this morning (first time logging in in over a week). I think my new goal is to quest through all the early regions again with only cosmetic gear (no armour) and butterknives from the Mathom Society as weapons. I may eventually get my LI with Vol II of the epic quest (if I make it that far), and then keep that as my "Sting". But no more LIs, not even a class item.

[Nymphonic]

This is false, the "good old days" are a myth, this is hardly new and getting something for nothing (or as little as possible) is as old as time itself.

Agreed. I've never gone for the "good old days" mentality or the current "the MMO I'm playing is incompetent and greedy" perspective.

I've seen this exact same thread on every MMO I've played since 1999.

[Runesi_EU]

I don't have this feeling at all with the newer expansions. In my opinion Isengard whas a step down from Moria and Rohan has been a step down from Isengard.

IMHO Isengard was the lowest point, Rohan and HD are better than that. Just my opinion though.

[Shukar]

What has happened to Lotro ? Where has this feeling of doing something epic gone too?

What, standing on the steps of Meduseld wasn't enough for you? Actually SEEING Gandalf free Theoden from his lethargy? Galloping across the plains of Rohan on your own warsteed isn't a thrill? Did you SEE the gates of Edoras??

When you entered Moria for the first time, were you comparing it to your first experience of Angmar? Remember, you have to be open to wonder before you can sense some.

[Nymphonic]

IMHO Isengard was the lowest point, Rohan and HD are better than that. Just my opinion though.

Same here. I really did not care for Isengard all that much, but I loved both of the Rohan expansions.

[kickman77]

I personally believe in the good ole days mentality. As others have said.. People who produced products cared about their customers.. treated them well, made sure they were taken care of. Look at old Pharmacies for example. There were days when they would fill a perscription for you even if you did not have enough to pay because they knew you needed the medicine (or at least half fill it so you had medicine). Now today the big Pharmacy Companies like Walgreen and CVS.. heck they wont even sell you 2 pills to get you through the weekend until a Doctor can re-up the script on Monday. (I recently had this happen over Thanksgiving weekend when I thought I had more than I did and the Pharmacy wouldnt budge so I had to go 2 days without antibiotics which made my illness worse and now I am on stronger medications because of it.)

When I was younger my first job was fast food. We were trained that every so often you throw your regular customers something extra. Upgrade their drink or fries for free. Not all the time just once in a blue moon as a thank you. Recently I went back to that industry for some extra cash and was written up for upgrading a customers soda whom came everyday. I was told by NO MEANS do we give anything away. Same company... 20 years later.

Look at Mom and Pop stores 50 years ago. Nice, nieghborhood places where you could go and everyone knew you. They were courtious and kind. Now look at Walmart. Tell me the last honest time you had a totally good experience in that store without at least 1 employee upsetting you.

So yeah... the good ole days. They did exist. At least here in the US. But Corporate greed and other things have ruined it. I hope to someday get back there but I doubt it.

[sakisman]

What has happened to Lotro ? Where has this feeling of doing something epic gone too?

I rememeber when I just started playing this game I was overblown with the urge to get to the end level zones like Angmar and later on Moria. They had something special about them, you could battle a Balrog, the instances in Moria were so much fun, the places you've went too looked astonishing, the music was just awesome. I remember I couldn't wait to enter Moria once I was lvl 50, the feelings I had when I entered that place, I almost couldn't control my excitement because it looked superb. Besides that there were new voice actors for the dwarves, a variation in the mobs, I miss those days. The expansions of Moria was something they worked on for some time, somewhere far before the annual release of expansions.

I don't have this feeling at all with the newer expansions. In my opinion Isengard whas a step down from Moria and Rohan has been a step down from Isengard. I didn't even bother to play Helms Deep because of the user reviews. There is just no special feeling about the expansions no more. The fun instances are gone as well. As from I've read the music sucks in Helms Deep, so did it in Isengard, only Rohan was a lot better.

It's like the developers aren't as excited anymore, can we blame Warner Bros for taking over? In some way we can I think. The central idea of the game now is making money, okay it was like that before WB took over but you did at least get enough for the price you paid, you'd feel satisfied when you bought something, now it's just pay more, get less.

So I really miss playing Lotro, but I won't play it again until it gets better, I just don't have fun in the newer area's. Let's hope when they redo some older content now that some of the things get better.

thanks for reading

I love almost all lotro music in every zone and had fun with the new content but i get where you are coming from I was not as impressed with helms deep or rohan as i was with isengard moria and mirkwood.

[Beaniemooch]

What, standing on the steps of Meduseld wasn't enough for you? Actually SEEING Gandalf free Theoden from his lethargy? Galloping across the plains of Rohan on your own warsteed isn't a thrill? Did you SEE the gates of Edoras??

When you entered Moria for the first time, were you comparing it to your first experience of Angmar? Remember, you have to be open to wonder before you can sense some.

I am open to wonder the first time. I stand there, soak it in.... then I expect some substance and content to go with it. Sorry, wonder only lasts for a little while and big battles were old before they started. I want a raid with multiple bosses, I want instances, and I don't want the RNG drop demons to continue destroying incentive.

[sakisman]

I think you have to keep in mind a few things about the landscape of LOTRO. Keep in mind that LOTRO is a game designed to make money.

When Isenguard came out, most of the people who would buy the expansion where level 65. In fact, it had been so long without an expansion that most of the player base was at or near cap. Isengard was a pretty darn awesome expansion. It very much followed the Moria model, with more skills or significantly improved skills, new gear, new raid and instances.

It was however, an expansion for the endgame, in a time when getting to the endgame certainly was work, but something many people had already done.

ROR saw a pretty huge shift. During this time, or perhaps because of it, the game focus shifted away from the endgame. We saw a strong change that was an attempt to try to not only open up content for lower levels (by having the erabor raids and instances be runnable at level 20), but also the start of a rewards shift. Rewards were easier to get, though still somewhat difficult to get the best rewards.

Why the shift? Because the game population is changing. People come and people go, but the number of people at cap no longer made up the majority of people playing the game. Because the smaller staff size that turbine has had for a while dedicated to LOTRO, there just isn't enough money in making content that served only one group, the endgame player. The team isn't big enough, and even if it was, the game is too big to add content for all level ranges. Also, it was an attempt to try to make the non-elite players feel more empowered. Its a game, its supposed to be fun.

HD was more of the same thing, only some of the rules went out the window. More of the same "content for all" with big battles, but an even more randomized loot system, and infact loot that is so flat in design there are basically two tiers, and anyone can get any loot. Why wasn't the music as good? Because the music was much cheaper. The whole expansion was cheaper, except for in the actual cost.

Now that we are at HD, the only elements we have left of what the game used to be like is the art direction, which is still beautiful thoughout HD, There is some neat innovation in the BB system, even though its still terribly bug ridden, and it might as well be another game rather than LOTRO, and the epic quest is just about as good as it always was, despite now being behind a paywall for free to players.

I wonder if the producer's letter was always planned to contain the announcement about expansions, or if it was driven by lower than expected sales. Either way, I really hope that all the work that went into an expansion will instead go into fixing the many bugs in the game, fixing the aging systems, and developing content that actually appeals to players, like we used to have.

I think the reason the helms deep epic story was a must pay to play was because they didn't want to give epic battles away for free and that was part of the expansion. I think they said in the future the epic story will continue to be free.

[sakisman]

There is no surprise that this happened. For me the game became easy and generic. Instances don't pose a challenge and even the loot has the same statistics now.
Why? As a European I'd say Americans love money that's why. In the very old days you had entrepreneurs now you have businessmen. The difference. The entrepreneur was proud on his product and did everything to satify the customer. The customer came first and the money came second. Now you have businessmen who had the idea of making lower quality products for more money resulting in more profit. They do not care about the customer except if they can rob them of more of their hard earned cash by convicning them to buy products they don't actually need.

Turbine is such a company. All they care about is money, money, money. It often happens when you need a GM it takes over 15 minutes to get an answer. If you're doing group content it's likely the group already disbanded. If you do get a GM it's often ticket closed with a auto generated answer or they say they can't help you. Customer service costs money. Less service means more profit. The less time you spend on a customer, the less staff you need, the more profit you make. Do the math. Look at how buggy big battles are. They're riddled with it. Do they care. No because if they did care the evidence would be a polished game. The enormous amount of bugs is evidence of their non caring for their customers. I guess we've become accustomed to bad service. I cannot even name a big company that has excellent customer service, in your own language, that know what they're doing and fix whatever issue you have to your satisfaction.

This comment is anti American. Don't say Americans love money when most of Europe has higher prices of food, clothes and electronics. Not to mention taxes. I lived in the US for 10 years and Europe for close to 11 now. I can say that if i had the money i would move back to the US in a heartbeat even if i don't like Obama.

[Teyaha]

What has happened to Lotro ? Where has this feeling of doing something epic gone too?

I rememeber when I just started playing this game I was overblown with the urge to get to the end level zones like Angmar and later on Moria. They had something special about them, you could battle a Balrog, the instances in Moria were so much fun, the places you've went too looked astonishing, the music was just awesome. I remember I couldn't wait to enter Moria once I was lvl 50, the feelings I had when I entered that place, I almost couldn't control my excitement because it looked superb. Besides that there were new voice actors for the dwarves, a variation in the mobs, I miss those days. The expansions of Moria was something they worked on for some time, somewhere far before the annual release of expansions.

I don't have this feeling at all with the newer expansions. In my opinion Isengard whas a step down from Moria and Rohan has been a step down from Isengard. I didn't even bother to play Helms Deep because of the user reviews. There is just no special feeling about the expansions no more. The fun instances are gone as well. As from I've read the music sucks in Helms Deep, so did it in Isengard, only Rohan was a lot better.

It's like the developers aren't as excited anymore, can we blame Warner Bros for taking over? In some way we can I think. The central idea of the game now is making money, okay it was like that before WB took over but you did at least get enough for the price you paid, you'd feel satisfied when you bought something, now it's just pay more, get less.

So I really miss playing Lotro, but I won't play it again until it gets better, I just don't have fun in the newer area's. Let's hope when they redo some older content now that some of the things get better.

thanks for reading

the game has changed for the better. what has changed is you, your perceptions and your memories.

many mmorpg vets look fondly back on older games, at the good times, but almost always ignore the bad. for this game, it was the hellish grind and a trait system that was a poor design decision (due to the daily-capped grind, which punished people severely that could not play every day) from the very beginning.

people look back on daoc pvp with fondness, but ignore the mezz/sos trains and general zerging that - if you weren't playing albion - meant your game experience really wasn't all tea and crumpets as you think it was.

they look back fondly on swg pre nge and think it was the best thing since sliced bread, but forget it was a star wars game with zero vehicles on launch, introduced wookies with swords (NO NO NO NO NO NO NO), broken crafting which us beta testers took advantage of to the point of trashing the economy hardcore and the endless combat macro combined with alt+shift+ctrl+enter that allowed us to max out a profession while we slept.

they look back at pre-battlegrounds wow pvp with fondness, missing the org tunnel farming. they forget that..well..you were org tunnel farming. how in the bloody hell is that even pvp?


rose colored glasses. remove them. yes the game has issues - mostly the lack of a solid end game or challenging group-based content - but they fixed what has been majorly broken about this game for many years. the game still has one of the longest leveling grinds of any non-korean mmorpg with this many levels for a new player or any returning player who left the game without substantial assets. the pvp is still a joke, but that's really a non-issue for a game where pvp was never a priority.

i think some of you have forgotten how crafting was as well. the game has seen a LOT of good quality-of-life improvements that were required as people started to abandon it en masse. when it went free to play it saw a resurgence, however that has faded because the underlying issues were still there. even now, most servers are ghost towns except a couple, and i hardly consider 500 people in brandywine's glff a "huge, full and thriving mmorpg server" today. in 1997? absolutely. now? no.

have these changes made it feel like the game has less of a community? yes, but that's not exactly turbines fault. you see that in all online games now and it has more to do with changes to our culture at large than any game designs. all game designers can do now is keep up with our changing cultural priorities so they can stay in business, because the small community minded people are clearly not numerous enough nor paying enough to keep the lights on for these games.

[Ilhsul]

This comment is anti American.

[Glumposneak]

This is false, the "good old days" are a myth, this is hardly new and getting something for nothing (or as little as possible) is as old as time itself.

nope, not a myth.

Theres many companies all over the planet that originally were started by people who had a passion for their products.

Sure they also wanted to make money but at the same time, they took pride in their products and wanted the customer to be happy.

What we now have is a global problem where businesses are just after getting a quick return and don't really give a dam what happens in five years time, or whether the current customer base will remain customers.

years ago people worked at companies often all their lives, most companies I've worked for over the past 30 years, if a member of staff or manager was there for more than 5 years it is rare. For most companies that aren't owned by the big boys in their field, for them to remain independent is also rare, hence you get the likes of EA or WB buying all the games companies, often just after the brand and not the staff who created the brand, and their management just want to make their share holders happy and don't really care what happens in a few years time as they would have moved on elsewhere.

End result, no company is willing to make long term plans, no company is willing to take the sort of risks that need to be taken, and as far as gaming goes, all we now get is more of the same.

Its not just the customers that get treated badly, new management usually means getting rid of people that have been the backbone of the companies success, usually because they can see what the new owners are doing to their product and know most of the customers will hate it. The new management usually get rid of the longest serving and highest paid people that know the product inside out, and employ people at often under half what the old staff were getting trouble is, normally 3 of the new staff put together can't ( in the case of gaming) churn out as good code as one of the people laid off, and just a few months later its obvious they don't understand at all how most of the old choice works. And that is understandable, so why do companies keep doing it.

I can only speak for England, but when I look at working conditions in very well known companies compared to those same companies 25 years ago, things have gone down hill fast while the shareholders get richer and richer.

Sure we have always had those who were greedy, but we used to also have many that really cared about staff and customers. Sadly now everything is about short term greed and stuff anyone that gets in the way.

Whether you like or loath the current lotro, surely most people can see the lack of investment, the lack of advertisement etc.

Can you imagine if lotro had been properly financed over the years, properly advertised etc, how well it would be doing now. Expansion after expansion people complained they had seen almost zero advertising (and often completely zero advertising) , yet alone adverts likely to get the interest of someone that wasnt into mmos already.

They had the three films and while I know (or am led to believe) WB/Turbine don't have the rights to put any of the hobbit book stuff into Lotro, they could still advertise Lotro in a big way, saying things like people can experiance first hand a journey through the land of Tolkien etc.

I firmly believe if this game had been marketed and financed properly over the years, it would be in the top 5 mmos in both the US and EU for subscribers, probably would never had needed to go f2p, and would have the finances to make raids , instances etc while re-doing housing and other bits and also being able to release easier and/or solo content areas for those that want it, and still make much more money after paying for the extra staff than they are making now.

When people complain that HD was too buggy at release, I don't blame the programmers, they are obviously understaffed, many many beta players begged them to postpone the launch until it was less buggy, many many warned what would happen on the forums etc, but this is a classic example of the bosses not caring about the customers, I'm certain (and I hope I'm right) some if not all of lotros coders said it wasn't ready but were over ruled.

Sadly now this had almost become the accepted norm in the gaming business and I wish more people wouldn't put up with it (talking all companies, not just Turbine) because all the time we do, they will keep doing it.

Yes people wanting something for nothing is not a new thing but so many companies not caring about building a strong loyal customer base is. Trouble is, when it comes down to banks, cable, phones etc, all the companies are as bad as one another and if a good one did start and if it did, would pinch loads of customers, the shareholders of one of the others would offer the owners a pile of money they couldn't easily refuse, buy them out, and strip their company to the ground so it's just like the rest again.

One day all this will go horribly wrong and the greed will come back to bite us all .....