A nice polite forum

[undervo]

If i remember correctly (i hope i do), then we should get things to enhance the trap skill we have with things from weaponsmiths soon.
is it long to this gets released?

[Mucica]

I think blue line hunter dps should be tuned down by about 10%. I'm sure many will disagree with me, but as someone who plays both side of the fence, blue line gains far too much mobility without sacrificing an equal amount of dps compared to red line.

I disagree. Every creep class can disable that mobility and get you in melee range, in which we aren't that good. Eldar's grace can help sometimes, but now when so many classes have "cannot be b/p/e"-skills, not really. Blade toss-lasceration-impale-dev.st. - dead. And since now everyone buys skills, they have them at r3 already.

[Sezneg]

I disagree. Every creep class can disable that mobility and get you in melee range, in which we aren't that good. Eldar's grace can help sometimes, but now when so many classes have "cannot be b/p/e"-skills, not really. Blade toss-lasceration-impale-dev.st. - dead. And since now everyone buys skills, they have them at r3 already.

If a single bleed impale is un-gating dev strike against you... the problem is likely in your build and equipment.

[Bond007]

If a single bleed impale is un-gating dev strike against you... the problem is likely in your build and equipment.

Not really... if that single bleed impale is a dev or a crit... okay, think about this scenario. Most hunters out there are ~15k morale unbuffed, unless you are really high rank or you spec for survivability (I do that on my hunter, and I still only have 19k unbuffed).

My r11 reaver crits for 3k base impale damage, devs for 5k. The crit on impale bleed does 2k, no matter the class, since audacity is the only defense against orc craft. Running through even that terrible rotation of blade toss>lacerate>impale on a reaver, and getting a simple crit or dev, is a guaranteed recipe for ungating dev strike (Remember that impale is not the only skill we're taking into account here, so stating that the above would only bring the hunter down 5k is not true).

Blade toss crits for 2k, devs for upwards to 3k, and that's if you're in front of the target. It's more if you're behind the person, which any reaver with a mouse knows how to do with ease.

That alone just shows how weak a hunter's defense has become. We could talk about VTs hitting for regular crit 8ks and how hunter has no way to come back from those, but that would just be overkill.

The classes that are lacking in defense out there right now on freepside would be hunter, champ, and (maybe) RK right now. Of these three, it is clear that hunter has by far the least defense out of all of them. Those other classes can come back from hits that ^^ large. Hunter simply cannot, without store branding the slow or something along those lines. The creep skills hitting hard is understandable, when you take in account freep healing capabilities. The inability to defend yourself solo is frustrating, though. I hate using groups as a crutch just because a class is defenseless against 3 or more creeps.

[Mucica]

If a single bleed impale is un-gating dev strike against you... the problem is likely in your build and equipment.

I didn't literally think I die in 2 seconds and that rotation wasn't literally like that,it was just as an example,but pretty close one.
I have full audacity,maxed mits,almost 4.2k agility and crit defence at about 11k (2/2/2 sets), and I wouldn't call myself having bad equipment or gear; and I'm definitely not among best hunters. But whenever I met r9+ reaver,I either ended up dead or was near death. And when I met higly ranked ba,with his mt up,I could in most cases (pardon my expression) just bent over. Hunters' survivebility is lowest of all classes. That was my point in the first place.

[Sabian49]

Remember, nice polite forum. Try not to bicker?

[Patriotp3a]

Hunters def need "cds" to use out there..
Even yellowline is useless when its multiple creeps who somewhat know what they are doing.

I play my burg and relish battle/Bob and weave is already more self healing than my hunter and its not even a skill, its a trait bonus. Something like this attached to trait lines would give survival without makimg the class op. Maybe insta cast PO/Endurance heal on all attacks/BOTR return morale based on dmg dealt(think blood arrow).

[ddave]

Master Jinjaah, Thank You for your participation in this discussion thread.

My question(s): In reference to comments in this hunter forum thread, https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthr...e-Bow-Legacies, is it true the Quick Shot Critical Chance bow legacy only applies while in Precision Stance? If so, is this working as intended?

[Ravyrn]

I disagree. Every creep class can disable that mobility and get you in melee range, in which we aren't that good. Eldar's grace can help sometimes, but now when so many classes have "cannot be b/p/e"-skills, not really. Blade toss-lasceration-impale-dev.st. - dead. And since now everyone buys skills, they have them at r3 already.

They do have that ability, however, through insignias and (fixed) cry of the hunter, you can counter those as well. You also have CC to build the distance back up if they use those skills. I don't see the issue with creeps purchasing skills, especially since most freeps have all of theirs. A r3 reaver with impale is still a r3 reaver with impale. On a side note though, with 90s hips/sprints on warg, and whatever the cd is for burg's hips/reset and minstrel flops, I am confounded as to why hunters can't df every 30m. I'm actually surprised to see no one has mentioned this. Given the escape skills mentioned and their short cooldowns on other classes, what justifies the lack of hunter's ability to df every 30m, Jinjaah? If you could run that comparison by your coworkers, it'd be greatly appreciated. I don't see why hunters shouldn't be able to df every 30m given the cds of comparable escape skills on other classes.

[Gibraisia]

Hey Jin, just wanted to say thanks so much for talking to us

First off, I loved reading that tripwire trap is going to be induction less in 12.2 again. Hooray ^.^

I wanted to point out though, that traps at the moment don't account for any sort of level-miss chance (back at 87 i was going on a 95 sammy run, and still knocked things down with tripwire trap). As someone who plays trapper a lot (call me crazy <.<) i wanted to know what up? Is that intentional? If not, can i mention that I actually LIKE having traps as a wild card, and would rather they stay this way and that this becomes intentional.

Thanks

[Bond007]

They do have that ability, however, through insignias and (fixed) cry of the hunter, you can counter those as well. You also have CC to build the distance back up if they use those skills. I don't see the issue with creeps purchasing skills, especially since most freeps have all of theirs. A r3 reaver with impale is still a r3 reaver with impale. On a side note though, with 90s hips/sprints on warg, and whatever the cd is for burg's hips/reset and minstrel flops, I am confounded as to why hunters can't df every 30m. I'm actually surprised to see no one has mentioned this. Given the escape skills mentioned and their short cooldowns on other classes, what justifies the lack of hunter's ability to df every 30m, Jinjaah? If you could run that comparison by your coworkers, it'd be greatly appreciated. I don't see why hunters shouldn't be able to df every 30m given the cds of comparable escape skills on other classes.

It depends on whether or not you consider DF an escape skill. Myself, I wouldn't consider it one. It lands me in the same place I would've been had I died, only with one less death chalked up on my wartab. I have to run all the way back to the action (or worse, find the action again), all for the cost of not dying once. I believe there was a thread where a couple people debated the usefulness of DF in the moors a while back, like 2-3 weeks ago, but I couldn't find it. I do remember someone bringing up this idea, and it stuck with me. All other "escape skills" can be used to turn a fight to your side, not simply escape from one. Look at sprint/HIPS as an example. You can kite with sprint, or come back with a stun/high damage attack from HIPS. DF, unfortunately at the moment, just can't be used to turn a fight to your side.

As for the Cry of the Hunter concept, especially @Jinjaah, would we possibly ever see a decrease in the cooldown of CotH? Right now, 2 mins is fairly long still compared to many other classes. I realize it is a potent skill, and not one to be lightly looked at and buffed enormously, but as of now you CAN pot every effect on a creep. The daze, the slow, and a new slow on the hunter can come up in seconds, even if you're chasing him down with a melee class. Could the cd maybe be reduced to 90s? Or the morale bubble scaled up a bit, maybe to the 2.2k line that the HD jewelry set provides? I am not sure if this was addressed already or not, but the bubble only provides 1.7k morale at the moment, and I don't know if this was working as intended, fixed in Update 12.2, or will be fixed in the future.

[Kander]

I am confounded as to why hunters can't df every 30m. I'm actually surprised to see no one has mentioned this. Given the escape skills mentioned and their short cooldowns on other classes, what justifies the lack of hunter's ability to df every 30m, Jinjaah? If you could run that comparison by your coworkers, it'd be greatly appreciated. I don't see why hunters shouldn't be able to df every 30m given the cds of comparable escape skills on other classes.

I agree it is useless enough to be available in moors (never understood why can't be used in combat there) but I wouldn't use it anyways, the skill is just not good, in fact I use this skill only for 2 reasons in landscape: 1-A swift travel if I wanna go to a place near a spawn point (WITH 30 MINS CD). 2-After some people died in a fight of an instance and I don't want to spend bow chants/oils/food again, so I just use it like that, again once each 30 minutes.
Skill should receive a complete revamp, maybe there's a way to make that DF bring you anywhere else than respawn spot, like to closest camp, or a mobile stealth of few secs duration (like 10 secs or so that breaks automatically even if you stay still after those 10s).
I honestly don't know what should be done with that skill, but at least lower its cool down to 5-10 minutes (as every other skill in the game for every class), and make it useful since right now I can't see an use for it apart from saving few consumable items at instances.

[MaestroJack]

Jin - just wanted to say Thank you to the devs and programmers for fixing the "Path of the ...." issue! I know I appreciate it!

Montras of Landroval

[Jinjaah]

Jin - just wanted to say Thank you to the devs and programmers for fixing the "Path of the ...." issue! I know I appreciate it!

Montras of Landroval

Glad to hear it is fixed. I will give some high-fives around the office in your name.

-Jinjaah

[EmyrSelyf]

I don't see why hunters shouldn't be able to df every 30m given the cds of comparable escape skills on other classes.

Of course, they used to be able to. I'd love for this to come back, although imo in a changed form....

Originally I thought just have them show up in one of a few random locations. That way you _might_ show up in the middle of the NPCs in OC or in a creep-controlled keep - or something like that - which would add some element of danger to using the skill.


but perhaps....., if a similar skill allowed you to teleport a short distance, so you weren't completely out of the fight, and still attackable, that might be interesting.

They teleported in LOTR, right? I'm sure they did.

[Belegwe]

Of course, they used to be able to. I'd love for this to come back, although imo in a changed form....

Originally I thought just have them show up in one of a few random locations. That way you _might_ show up in the middle of the NPCs in OC or in a creep-controlled keep - or something like that - which would add some element of danger to using the skill.


but perhaps....., if a similar skill allowed you to teleport a short distance, so you weren't completely out of the fight, and still attackable, that might be interesting.

They teleported in LOTR, right? I'm sure they did.

I know they did in Battle for Middle Earth 2, wizards anyway, so why not hunters. Just clicked the skill, then a location on the map and off you went

[Erlindur]

I'm not sure if someone mentioned that before and if this is the right place to post about it, but I think it has more to do with the hunter dev than the minstrel one. I'm working on my low level mini class skills and I've noticed the skill Song of Aid. It provides minor help to players in a fellowship depending on their class, like a block and parry response on a guard, reduced cds on an LM etc.

For hunters it gives a parry response. I assume that the idea behind it, was to help the hunter use his Agile Rejoinder in times of crisis and it is completely useless at this point. Now, I don't really play my mini and I don't know how ofter this skill is used in real combat, but at least you should modify it to give something useful to hunters as well. Some focus points or something like that would be nice.

[lincthra]

It was recommended that I put this here in the hopes that Jinjaah might respond and let us know if it is intentional or a bug:

This was not in the changelog, but it now seems like Explosive Arrow in the Yellow Hunter line now hits ONE target (also, the targeting of it changed a little, but I can live with that). There's this big explosion... that now, instead of being an AoE like before, dings one mob for a tiny amount of damage. What the heck happened here?! Damage nerf AND target nerf?! Boo.

[Snowlock]

I know they did in Battle for Middle Earth 2, wizards anyway, so why not hunters. Just clicked the skill, then a location on the map and off you went

Make it so you DF to the last campfire you dropped. Ensure you can't drop campfire's in combat of course, and limit the radius to 50 meters or so. Keep the CD where it is.

[Sabian49]

OP Here,
1) Nice to see this has gone so well
2) Just became aware Wardens are able to throw javelins and all their ranged skills 55m..... Since when can one throw further than one can shoot...
Even if you use an atalatl the range isnt further....

[Mucica]

Ok, after beta testing, live version, updates 12.1. and 12.2., here are my final thoughts, regarding specifically pvp aspect of the game...

I don't find HD hunter as an improvement, but a giant step backwards.
What have we gained?
Yellow line that's actually playable. - good.
Movability with blue line - very good.
Few more skills/traits tied to a specific skill tree, like upshot and exsanguinate and volley.. - good.

What have we lost?
Lot of skills now tied to a specific tree. - Bad.
(Now, the way I see it, hunters have lowest survivability of all classes. Removing Agile rejoinder was a huge mistake; even the heals weren't that good, it was still better than nothing, and we still lost it. Heals through Strength of the Earth is similiar, almost useless, but it's still better thank nothing.
And putting Press Onward into red line... Any explanation why this skill couldn't have been available to any tree, class-, not tree-bound?
Those two things would improve our survivability)

I thought the reason for updating hunter class was to IMPROVE it, not to cripple it.

Removing Improved scourging blow was also a step backwards, not forward.
Even disabling Focus on the move was step backward, why this was being done, who had problem with it?

Tracking stealth ability. - Extremely bad. (what makes it even worse, is not explaining the reason why this was lost. "This wasn't meant to happen" just doesn't do, sorry. If the primary case for it was to force people to buy trackers from store, why nobody has the courage to just say so? Or "We've lost the code" or "Don't know how to implement the code back in" would also suffice.)
Over last few years, every good hunter I've talked to had the same proposition - to merge all three tracking skills in one skill, with ability to track stealth. Can somebody explain why this is too hard to do, or any reason why not to?
This would solve "clogged toolbar" and it's use would be a real improvement.
Versatility - bad.

I think we all strive to improvement of our class, not to be satisfied with thrown crumbs.

I know there are some really good hunters out there (once again, I'm talking about pvp aspect of the game), who can easily kill almost anyone with just Barbed arrow and few pen shots. Great majority of hunters can't.
Just few simple changes to our class would make us enjoy playing hunters in Moors once again.
Because now, most of the time, to hunter in Moors, is plain masochism.

[Jinjaah]

It was recommended that I put this here in the hopes that Jinjaah might respond and let us know if it is intentional or a bug:

This was not in the changelog, but it now seems like Explosive Arrow in the Yellow Hunter line now hits ONE target (also, the targeting of it changed a little, but I can live with that). There's this big explosion... that now, instead of being an AoE like before, dings one mob for a tiny amount of damage. What the heck happened here?! Damage nerf AND target nerf?! Boo.

This sounds like a bug. I know that some changes did happen to Explosive arrow to get a vfx in that was planned, but perhaps something went wrong with the change over. I would bug it and I will make a note to look into it.

-Jinjaah

[Sabian49]

Jin, any chance of talking to Warden dev about their range or giving us and BAs a range increase?
The warden range doesnt mak too much of a difference now except in the moors, and as you are in charge of both hunter and Moors....

[ravenmonkey]

Jin, any chance of talking to Warden dev about their range or giving us and BAs a range increase?
The warden range doesnt mak too much of a difference now except in the moors, and as you are in charge of both hunter and Moors....

Wardens have always had the ability to hit from 40 and I think if you were to take that ability away from them you would have to deal with some very, very angry people. Range increase takes a Legacy to do anyways, so it's not like it's just free.

[Sezneg]

Jin, any chance of talking to Warden dev about their range or giving us and BAs a range increase?
The warden range doesnt mak too much of a difference now except in the moors, and as you are in charge of both hunter and Moors....

55 meter range is not intentional. Bug it if you see it on your warden. This has been around for a long time, and is caused by a reproducible (and therefore exploitable) bug with the Javalin Range Legacy.