U14 balance

[Parmveer]

I've been wanting to level a Freep for the Ettenmoors however the inconsistency of the Ettenmoors balance is putting me off. Was just wondering if anyone that was on Bullroarer could tell me how the balance has changed. Is it pretty balanced, do the freeps have the advantage or do the creeps have the advantage? I have got to the point where I cannot be bothered to wait for a greater number of freeps to come to fight, so I'd rather making a freep.

Any input on whether balance will get better, worse or not change would be good. Rather not make a freep, if the freeps are going to get OP.

[Tchad]

I've been wanting to level a Freep for the Ettenmoors however the inconsistency of the Ettenmoors balance is putting me off. Was just wondering if anyone that was on Bullroarer could tell me how the balance has changed. Is it pretty balanced, do the freeps have the advantage or do the creeps have the advantage? I have got to the point where I cannot be bothered to wait for a greater number of freeps to come to fight, so I'd rather making a freep.

Any input on whether balance will get better, worse or not change would be good. Rather not make a freep, if the freeps are going to get OP.

Too soon to tell, but so far freeps are not getting op, looks the balance will stay the same.

[Cassie4486]

The freeps have been pretty much dominating the Moors since U12. Spiders & defilers second to the wargs were the worst ones hit hardest.
Gram's fights were common.

The update did balance it out, freeps just need to group up with a good leader, learn the cc, learn to root, debuff, etc. You get that
down pat & you have a strong freep group that can do some serious damage. You run at the creeps, most will turn and run. And once they
turn their backs - they don't survive long. You can't fight back when you are running away.

Personally? I'd read online about what character you are playing and read what people post online (not the Lotro ones) and see what might
make a difference. It might be something simple like switching traits out.

[houseofcards]

The freeps have been pretty much dominating the Moors since U12. Spiders & defilers second to the wargs were the worst ones hit hardest.
Gram's fights were common.

The update did balance it out, freeps just need to group up with a good leader, learn the cc, learn to root, debuff, etc. You get that
down pat & you have a strong freep group that can do some serious damage. You run at the creeps, most will turn and run. And once they
turn their backs - they don't survive long. You can't fight back when you are running away.

Personally? I'd read online about what character you are playing and read what people post online (not the Lotro ones) and see what might
make a difference. It might be something simple like switching traits out.

U13 didn't balance moors. Freeps have good cc I agree, but sustained/burst dps , healing and general class survivability is heavily in favour of creeps
at the moment. A reaver can go charging into a small raid of freeps and actually kill something before they get killed, both bas and reavers can solo kill
a healing mini, burg/hunter can't do that to a ranked WL or def. What is probably the most gamebreaking part in rvr situations is the low cd on wl aoe rez.
impossible to take out a craid stacked with wls.

[thisisanewname]

I've been wanting to level a Freep for the Ettenmoors however the inconsistency of the Ettenmoors balance is putting me off. Was just wondering if anyone that was on Bullroarer could tell me how the balance has changed. Is it pretty balanced, do the freeps have the advantage or do the creeps have the advantage? I have got to the point where I cannot be bothered to wait for a greater number of freeps to come to fight, so I'd rather making a freep.

Any input on whether balance will get better, worse or not change would be good. Rather not make a freep, if the freeps are going to get OP.

you can never really judge balance based on bullroarer . creeps will all be r15 with every skill (not everyone is full ptw on live) vs freeps who are usually either under geared or using the same gear as live. so what you usually see is weaker freeps than will be on live vs MUCH stronger creeps then on live. even going back to pvp events in moria beta when on live hunters were 2 shotting creeps 10 at a time creeps seemed op and dominated. the only way to tell is to wait a few weeks till after the update till freeps are regeared before you can know for sure.

[Shumzuda]

I have not seen much group action on BR but I have been to a couple of 1v1 circles. Even on a 95 scaled champ I had some very competitive fights and I would say that my scaled freep was about as strong relative to creeps as on live at the moment. After we all get to level 100 I have a feeling that balance will swing in the freep direction.

Judging from the potential stats from essenced gear compared to standard PvP audacity sets I think most freeps might start running around with hybrid audacity/essenced or even purely essenced armour in the moors.

[Aldeld]

you can never really judge balance based on bullroarer . creeps will all be r15 with every skill (not everyone is full ptw on live) vs freeps who are usually either under geared or using the same gear as live. so what you usually see is weaker freeps than will be on live vs MUCH stronger creeps then on live.

On top of that BR doesn't have competent groups, so any raid v raid trials are completely absent. It's mostly 1v1 with idiotic gankers now and then, and that's about it. Totally sucks because you can't give any real PVMP feedback because you have to speculate how very small scale fights will play out in larger fights. It's slightly better than speculating based off the release notes alone.

[Tchad]

What is probably the most gamebreaking part in rvr situations is the low cd on wl aoe rez.
impossible to take out a craid stacked with wls.

3 wls = 1 aoe rez/20 seconds. That means with 3 wls a freep raid need to kill each wl 2 times at least in less then 1 minute (not counting some mapping back into the fight), but that is very unlikely to happen if the craid have only 1 high rank defiler.

With the right group setup and good leaders a freep raid can fight a good creep raid, but with more then 2 wls it will be very hard to wipe the raid.

Creeps got nice tools to counter the freeps op dps and op heals in the past, such as the cd for 'on your feed' skill (original 6m/5m cd to 2m/1m cd). Freeps dps and heals are not op anymore, but creeps kept the same skills and same cooldown.

I don't think turbine needs to nerf creeps dps/heals, not even buff freeps dps/heals... just fixing some creep skills cooldowns and giving freeps some mits back should be enough to make things more balanced.

[Aldeld]

With the right group setup and good leaders a freep raid can fight a good creep raid, but with more then 2 wls it will be very hard to wipe the raid.

And with that kind of make up, if they're smart they'll know how to utilize all the OP creep power drains - banners, flies, etc. Between the rezzes, map-ins, and power draining creeps always have the upper hand. Thankfully competent groups like this are lacking on my server. Every now and then we'll hit a group that has these kind of skills, and it sucks because soon you're out of power, watching your team picked off one at a time. They really should have addressed the power depleting creep garbage in 14, but they didn't. Who knows though, freeps did get some love and more skilled freeps might be able to take down some of the defilers and WLs quickly, which will tip things in our favor. Just have to wait a few days and see.

[Shumzuda]

And with that kind of make up, if they're smart they'll know how to utilize all the OP creep power drains - banners, flies, etc. Between the rezzes, map-ins, and power draining creeps always have the upper hand. Thankfully competent groups like this are lacking on my server. Every now and then we'll hit a group that has these kind of skills, and it sucks because soon you're out of power, watching your team picked off one at a time. They really should have addressed the power depleting creep garbage in 14, but they didn't. Who knows though, freeps did get some love and more skilled freeps might be able to take down some of the defilers and WLs quickly, which will tip things in our favor. Just have to wait a few days and see.

Take an LM.

[Giliodor]

Take an LM.

You need an LM not only for the power imo. Tar is essential with reavers/wargs now.

[Shumzuda]

You need an LM not only for the power imo. Tar is essential with reavers/wargs now.

Yellow LMs have alot of group functionality and are sadly often overlooked. The -tac damage debuff works on outgoing healing too I believe and the AD and induction debuffs can be very useful with healers. Waterlore and beacon on a focused target buffs inc healing and a player will never go down if an LM is pocket healing as well as a main healer. Instant 3 effect clears can keep a healer's debuff bar clean and also you can still keep SI on a healer even in its nerfed form. Throw in roots and mezzes on clumps of wargs and reavers and you have one very useful contributer to the group.

@Nouri - is this being nerfed with U14?

[CRUSHUC]

With the right group setup and good leaders a freep raid can fight a good creep raid, but with more then 2 wls it will be very hard to wipe the raid.

Usual creep raids on Landy have 3 or 4 WL's and multiple Defilers. There is no group setup to combat that - get what kills you can and then get rolled.

[Nouri]

@Nouri - is this being nerfed with U14?

I do not believe so. I've read nothing about a nerf to this in any of the release notes or RK discussions on the forums.

However, I did some checking on this since the duration I quoted was wrong. With no buffs, I get an average of 77.5 power initially, and then an average of 52.5 power per second for 12 seconds. After subtracting the cost of using the skill (122 power), that's 585.5 power back in 12 seconds. That's an average of 48.79 power back per second. Over the course of 30 seconds, that's 1463 power back. That's 22% of my power back in 30 seconds under optimal conditions if I cast PtH on myself as soon as the last one expires.

I initially stated that the duration was 30 seconds, but it's only 12.... brain cramp

[LEGENDofALL]

Yellow LMs have alot of group functionality and are sadly often overlooked. The -tac damage debuff works on outgoing healing too I believe and the AD and induction debuffs can be very useful with healers. Waterlore and beacon on a focused target buffs inc healing and a player will never go down if an LM is pocket healing as well as a main healer. Instant 3 effect clears can keep a healer's debuff bar clean and also you can still keep SI on a healer even in its nerfed form. Throw in roots and mezzes on clumps of wargs and reavers and you have one very useful contributer to the group.

@Nouri - is this being nerfed with U14?

1. Frost lore doesn't debuff outgoing healing
2. DR takes care of long stuns,roots or mezzes

Overall yes yellow line can help group settings but explain to be two things.

1. Where's the induction debuff or incoming healing debuff for lm? Most classes have them and now ba's but yet a class that's suppose to do that stuff doesn't.

2. They nerfed Lms power drain where it doesn't drain any power from creeps yet spiders and defilers can suck down there power does that make sense? I mean defilers don't use much power anyways so why not make it interesting.

[houseofcards]

1. Frost lore doesn't debuff outgoing healing
2. DR takes care of long stuns,roots or mezzes

Overall yes yellow line can help group settings but explain to be two things.

1. Where's the induction debuff or incoming healing debuff for lm? Most classes have them and now ba's but yet a class that's suppose to do that stuff doesn't.

2. They nerfed Lms power drain where it doesn't drain any power from creeps yet spiders and defilers can suck down there power does that make sense? I mean defilers don't use much power anyways so why not make it interesting.

induction debuff is a combo of frost lore and lightning skill i think, but its a joke considering its 20% and only 15secs plus you can't keep it up since BE an wizard fire breaks it.

Bring back old power of knowledge!

Also instead of an inc healing debuff I would like to see LM's get a very chunky tact mastery debuff. (maybe even have work kind of like catch prey where it transfers some tact mastery from opponent as +Will to fellows?)

[LEGENDofALL]

induction debuff is a combo of frost lore and lightning skill i think, but its a joke considering its 20% and only 15secs plus you can't keep it up since BE an wizard fire breaks it.

Bring back old power of knowledge!

Also instead of an inc healing debuff I would like to see LM's get a very chunky tact mastery debuff.

Yeah the induction debuff is joke the way it's set up and yeah give me back my power drain .


Now if they can fix the frost lore armor set and make it useful ill be happy.

[Aldeld]

Take an LM.

We're lucky to get 3-4 regulars in a group, let alone pick and choose which classes.

[Simon23]

I hope we get some form of balance with U14 because since U13, creeps are ridiculously OP. Some like Spiders and Defilers are virtualy unbeatable 1v1 and I'm a vet Burglar. Another morale boost isn't necessary. On the contrary they should get a nerf and have their morale pool cut by AT LEAST 1/3.

[houseofcards]

I hope we get some form of balance with U14 because since U13, creeps are ridiculously OP. Some like Spiders and Defilers are virtualy unbeatable 1v1 and I'm a vet Burglar. Another morale boost isn't necessary. On the contrary they should get a nerf and have their morale pool cut by AT LEAST 1/3.

I think its more about specific survivability(wrath,catch prey etc..) skills that classes have which is the problem. cutting all creep morale by 1/3 will just make BAs and wargs as squishy as hunters and the other creeps slightly less faceroll ezymode.


Also, not to justify u13 changes or to call you or freeps hypocrites, but i feel
we are kind of forgeting RoR gear-swapping and minstrel zergballs .

[Thorgrum]

I've been wanting to level a Freep for the Ettenmoors however the inconsistency of the Ettenmoors balance is putting me off. Was just wondering if anyone that was on Bullroarer could tell me how the balance has changed. Is it pretty balanced, do the freeps have the advantage or do the creeps have the advantage? I have got to the point where I cannot be bothered to wait for a greater number of freeps to come to fight, so I'd rather making a freep.

Any input on whether balance will get better, worse or not change would be good. Rather not make a freep, if the freeps are going to get OP.

Balance will not get better it will just change sides. PvP players in LOTRO have been crying about balance for literally years now and guess what? Still at U14 they are crying for the same thing. "This toon is OP" or "OMG that side is constantly rolling my raid" Its all noise at this point because one would think after years the morons would figure out the turbine cycle, which to thier credit is extremely consistent. What you wont see in the forums is the reality that the moors has gotten much better in terms of "balance" creeps used to be in a really, really bad spot being one shotted in some cases (dig up "ridiculous crits" thread). Right now with the mitigation changes (which was a change for PVE difficulty not the moors) creeps are killing freeps fast and well if you read the forums at all, we cant have that.

The next update should, if history is any indication place the freeps back on the top of the food chain. However thats really not the issue with balance because the moors is the last place in LOTRO where grouping is not only essential but the toons are best suited for it. Right now, maybe before the mit changes RvR fights of equal numbers was pretty balanced. The problem is freeps have it in their head they should be able to fill multiple roles within a fight, thats the PVE golden spoon they have been given by Turbine. In a pvp raid for the most part, a defiler heals, a WL heals, a reaver does melee dps, a BA is ranged DPS.... a freep raid? Mini's (you know the light armored healing class) are DPS, the LM (you know the light armored CC support class) is DPS, RK's (you know the light armored DPS and healers) DPS Guards (you know the heavy tanks) DPs.... You seeing a trend? Freeps when they group and establish roles and you have a raid leader that understands what each toon can do are unbelievably formidable and a good creep group of similar composition is a good counter.

But that isnt lotro PvP on the forums its about crying about nerfs or OP of one toon, in one role in compare to a counter part on the otherside. It hasnt been about that in years, sadly the PvP community on the forums just dosent understand it. Roll your freep and get out there. If its fun stick with it, if it isnt go back to your creep. If youre waiting on "balance" and you are using the forums as some kind of a guage youre just going to be unhappy with whatever you choose.

[MaestroJack]

Balance will not get better it will just change sides. PvP players in LOTRO have been crying about balance for literally years now and guess what? Still at U14 they are crying for the same thing. "This toon is OP" or "OMG that side is constantly rolling my raid" Its all noise at this point because one would think after years the morons would figure out the turbine cycle, which to thier credit is extremely consistent. What you wont see in the forums is the reality that the moors has gotten much better in terms of "balance" creeps used to be in a really, really bad spot being one shotted in some cases (dig up "ridiculous crits" thread). Right now with the mitigation changes (which was a change for PVE difficulty not the moors) creeps are killing freeps fast and well if you read the forums at all, we cant have that.

The next update should, if history is any indication place the freeps back on the top of the food chain. However thats really not the issue with balance because the moors is the last place in LOTRO where grouping is not only essential but the toons are best suited for it. Right now, maybe before the mit changes RvR fights of equal numbers was pretty balanced. The problem is freeps have it in their head they should be able to fill multiple roles within a fight, thats the PVE golden spoon they have been given by Turbine. In a pvp raid for the most part, a defiler heals, a WL heals, a reaver does melee dps, a BA is ranged DPS.... a freep raid? Mini's (you know the light armored healing class) are DPS, the LM (you know the light armored CC support class) is DPS, RK's (you know the light armored DPS and healers) DPS Guards (you know the heavy tanks) DPs.... You seeing a trend? Freeps when they group and establish roles and you have a raid leader that understands what each toon can do are unbelievably formidable and a good creep group of similar composition is a good counter.

But that isnt lotro PvP on the forums its about crying about nerfs or OP of one toon, in one role in compare to a counter part on the otherside. It hasnt been about that in years, sadly the PvP community on the forums just dosent understand it. Roll your freep and get out there. If its fun stick with it, if it isnt go back to your creep. If youre waiting on "balance" and you are using the forums as some kind of a guage youre just going to be unhappy with whatever you choose.

+ Rep if I could give it! Spot on!

[Ghosttaker]

I hope we get some form of balance with U14 because since U13, creeps are ridiculously OP. Some like Spiders and Defilers are virtualy unbeatable 1v1 and I'm a vet Burglar. Another morale boost isn't necessary. On the contrary they should get a nerf and have their morale pool cut by AT LEAST 1/3.

I don't think a morale nerf or a nerf in general to Creeps is the right way to go. They'll never do it but I think tweaks to cooldowns is what is really needed, even half second inductions versus instant cast in some cases and we'd have what alot of us are looking for.

[Giliodor]

I think the balance is there right now. 6v6, 12v12, 24v24... It pretty equal. As long as the numbers are equal. The point is: the numbers never are equal.
There's a few things tha need to be adressed, such as defiler heals. Something inbetween U12 and U13 would do. Heals cut by 25%, and inductions increased by 25%.
Also, War-leader rezzes should have a 3m traited CD again. 1m is just silly.

This is only in groups. When we talk 1v1, the game is horribly unbalanced. Spiders/Reavers/Defilers are too strong from a solo perspective, and wargs are just too easy to play. But Turbine has said several times they don't care for 1v1 balance. Out of laziness, perhaps...

I hope U14 won't change too much in the group v group balance. A slight buff to freeps won't hurt, but U12 was simply over the top, even though it was fairly balanced in 1v1's (except burgs/grd's and Impale).

[Nouri]

This is only in groups. When we talk 1v1, the game is horribly unbalanced. Spiders/Reavers/Defilers are too strong from a solo perspective, and wargs are just too easy to play.

No disrespect meant, but doesn't it seem like a bit of a stretch to suggest that you can somehow put these "horribly unbalanced" parts together, and achieve balance? Granted, I know there are differences in potentials when you're talking 1v1 versus group. However, creeps have some notably effective options there when you throw in things like Terror Banners where the area of affect is enormous, WL 1 minute CD AoE reses, creep map travel that allows them to concentrate numbers very quickly on opponents, or res and return to an area very quickly to name just a few.

It seems to me that if things are "horribly unbalanced" to the benefit of creeps in 1v1s, then freepside would need to have dramatically better AoE and group skills in order for things to be balanced in GvG or RvR. Would you say that freeps do, in fact, have dramatically better AoE and group skills?