Fix for U15? / Music System / Date?

[palantorio]

Can we have a date when the Music System will be fixed?.. I am not sure if i will log in until this date.

[Keli]

Sigh, in spite of all that was posted still the "broken" new system was rolled out. I really don't know what to say.

[Rozalinde]

Sigh, in spite of all that was posted still the "broken" new system was rolled out. I really don't know what to say.

I and others tried really hard to post in multiple places pleading that the new system should not be released until it was 100% done, because it just wouldn't work (what with concert schedules, and the thousands of music files that need to be re-done each time something changes) rolled out over the course of several updates, hotfixes, and patches.

I tried. Points for effort?

[SpiritusLOTRO]

While I can surmise /why/ this essentially "beta build" of the music system was live released, I don't have to like it.

However, I want to remain constructive if at all possible. To whom may read, it is more than Clarinet A#4 that needs adjustment. Several upper register theorbo notes are off timbre. The same with bagpipes. And pibgorn obviously, but I figured most don't care about that.

It is somewhat encouraging to know that the developers recognize the issues with individual note dynamics being off, though obviously I don't know to which they are referring. And the issue of overall dynamic balancing looms large, with the lute baseline too loud and seemingly the baseline theorbo, horn, and flute too soft.

I'm aiming to be a Positive Polly on all this. I really, really would appreciate a good dialogue opened up between some of the more experienced users of the music system and the developers to resolve this issue quickly.

Because it appears the general consensus is folks are hanging up their music hats until some sort of non-betaesque music system is in place. And that's bad news bears for the community and Turbine. Especially considering November is "Gamer Christmas," and folks will be trying LOTRO for the first time and not getting the full music experience. And if such a thing would have piqued their interest, they will have left not knowing what they missed.

Also, thank you for the opportunity to use the future perfect tense. A rare treat.

[Mistmorn]

I am a musician from the Landroval server - Les Beaux Chapeaux kin.

We are only one group among many who make music on the server. In our kin alone, there are easily 750-1000 different songs transcribed by a number of different people including myself. I tested a few songs and indeed the clarinet has a note that will pierce your eardrums. If you hate the pibgorn, you're gonna want to steer clear of clarinet for a while. It's worse.

A broken music system is going to affect thousands of people who have invested a lot of quality time/effort into building up this unique aspect of the game. Weatherstock, Horrorfest, Festival of Lights, Greenfields are just a few of the events held throughout the year. There is at least one concert held everyday and sometimes, two or three!

So while the 15 patch notes acknowledge the problem exists with clarinet and other parts of the music system, that is simply not good enough. Releasing a broken or incomplete music system is akin to releasing a patch where access to all instances are broken. THAT actually happened in WoW a few years back and that helped start the mass exodus of players from the game. I was one of those players.

So here is my question - when is this going to be fixed?

I already cancelled my VIP subscription due to very poor customer service and an increase in concert griefing that was actually condoned and supported by several GMs. Others in the music scene on Landroval did too in protest. I predict that if this is not fixed sooner rather than later, more people will not only cancel VIP subs, but say adios to what was once a great game to play.

Turbine makes a LOT of money off musicians. We tend to be in the RP crowd as well and spend real money for emotes, clothing, and other items sold in the LoTRO store. If Turbine wants to kill the game - this broken music system is the thing to do it.

The game is a boring grind without music to make. Many non-musicians come to play new content and then leave after they complete it - usually in a few weeks. Musicians and concert-goers are the roots of a server - we help to keep the playerbase from eroding away completely because we are passionate and we STAY. So I am truly hoping that Turbine gets off its bum and fixes this ASAP. If we can't make music, staying just became a whole lot harder to justify.

Take it seriously Turbine. You have bands all across LoTRO that are borked every which way to Sunday until the bug-ridden filth you just pushed out is fixed.

~Fionwyn

[Grymrock]

One of the biggest problems with the 'new' music system is not the high note, or the way the tunes are played, its the VOLUME of the instruments.

The music system have been untouched for 7 years. Thats 7 years where people have written and converted tunes so they would sound as good as they could get them ingame. A good part of this was to get the right volume on the right part of the tune to sound good together with the other instruments, to get it balanced. This takes time. A lot of time, with testing and retesting the same tune over and over again. (Converters like Fireferns and Maestro have helped with their abilitity to adjust the volume without having to use notepad to fix it in the last couple years). Then the devs comes in and changes the volume on almost all the wind instruments and the Orbo, putting them way lower than they used to be. The result?

I personally got about 4500 abc files, handcrafted the last four years, that i can just throw away... any idea on how much time those have taken?
And yes, I'm an experienced 'lotro musician' that have been the bandleader for 'The Chosen Few' on Laurelin for years, and we have participated on two Weatherstock, one Winterstock and we also host the event 'Archet Aid' on Laurelin each year.

So, what should we do now? Its one month to AA, nothing sounds like it should, and we dont dare start remaking the tunes in fear of the dev's changing things again to the worse....

So, to the development team. Can ya please put the volume back to what it was one days ago? Change the pitch and the way notes sounds, by all means, but let the volume be, please.


Grymrock Grey
- Bandleader - The Chosen Few (Laurelin)
- Organisator - Archet Aid (Laurelin, www.archetaid.com)
- Leader - Order of the Divine Brew (Laurelin)

[Emere]

Well said everyone.
Points for Roz and bunnyhugs to boot! I was right there with you on that one. This should of never been let out as is. Beta testing proved to be useless as we got no updates, no fixes to test, and no support of anyone coming to hear us. If you at Turbine really want to know how things sound, then come see us play and spend an hour or so some week at one of the main attraction shows on any of the servers that host music events. My suggestion would have been come to Landroval and listen to one of the main event bands that play each and every week, or well, used to. I'm quite sure that has just ended for a time. Les Beaux Chapeaux will no longer be playing each week until we can once again offer the best we can muster and with this release, there is no hope for that. Bright Star has gone on hiatus as well. I would suspect this will be a mass exodus for most of us until next major patch.

just heard the revamp - 4 piece band playing. The difference
is stunning.
They have been using existing ABC's and have not needed to make any changes to them.
more soon.

Stunning is not the word I would have chosen in this case. Shockingly upsetting, appalling, disheartening all would have been better descriptive words and I am being nice.
You obviously didn't use any of my ABC files or any from my many friends who transcribe. I found two solo's out of all my music today that are still somewhat playable, the rest, ruined.
I admit, I hold myself at the highest of standards with my songs but still, hearing clicking noises with my lutes, horns, bagpipes makes me want to vomit. The sound I can only describe as a cheap synthesized bagpipe that we now have is most upsetting. (sound card is a Sound Blaster Recon)
The flute, theorbo, harp, bagpipes ,too soft, unless I am mistaken, our drums lost some bass as well and drums I know as well as anyone in game.
You should have picked a few bands shows to attend and recorded them for further study in my opinion before you started this revamp.


Like so many others, I've more time put into my songs than I want to think about. Knowing that I may very well have to toss the entire folder out and start over breaks my heart. Why didn't you listen to us? Why didn't you get with those that make the transcriber programs to find out what we want? They are after all on the front lines of all this.
Rathinosk, Digero, Bruzo, (to name a few) all have been speaking with us about the music system for years now and so far have gotten so little support and yet done so very much for us. Surely a treasure trove of information and help there if you would just take a moment to use it.

We're not ignoring this folks. Our current plan is to resolve a particularly
bad clarinet note shortly after launch, then resolve out other notes considered broken or with poor
sustain for the first major patch. We take the music system very seriously, as you do.

All I can say is actions speak louder than words...

Please understand, I am all for this attention we are getting, to say I haven't pushed for many of these fixes would be a flat out lie, because I have. I am however very upset at this moment that this ever went live. We were willing to wait, willing to test, we said so, we begged for this to be put on hold, we asked to let us test and relate our findings on Bullroarer, to no avail. Now we are stuck with waiting for the music to be given a fix, and we all fear the same thing, that it will take months at the least, and worse case, we will have to dump our music folders and start over. How many will walk away and not come back? How many role players who are our main audience quit logging on for lack of entertainment and fellowship? Who can say but the last time we lost our music due to the dreaded music bug, many left and never came back, or only recently have, and to face this. I shudder to think of how not only will we possibly have to redo all of our hard work from over the last several years, but have to rebuild our reputations and audiences again.

Forgive me my rant, but anyone who knows me, knows that this is my number one game and the music is my number one activity here. I am simply crushed at this moment in time and I've no faith in a quick fix. I hope I am wrong, but past experience dictates otherwise.

As a last and resounding plea, please listen to us. We are the life and blood of some of the greatest player created events in Lotro, please, treat us as such...

~bunnyhugs~
Fincin of Landroval
Les Beaux Chapeaux Bandmember, transcriber, mentor and tutor of music, hugger of people and bunnys, your number one "give us a bunny cosmetic pet activist"

I can't remember if I cried
When I read the music will be fried
But something touched me deep inside
The day the music died

[AvalonMists]

I'd also really like to get an idea of dates for the upcoming fixes after these changes were rolled out with no improvements from the first round of beta.

For any concerts going ahead, there is sure to be a need to adjust dynamics to get the balance that was in the songs before Update 15. That same thing is going to happen after each lot of fixes are brought in for any songs that bands want to play. Some people likely won't play any songs/concerts until the music system has had all fixes put in place, I know already that there are folks stating that. Some bands play weekly concerts, and it's going to be difficult for those to go ahead without extra work, if the band members are prepared to put the effort in. For those bands that either have less regular concerts, or special events down the track, there effectively is no point testing songs in preparation when it may all change again before those concerts roll around.

It's great to hear that a fix for the clarinet-note-trying-to-be-a-pibgorn should be coming very soon, but without knowing when we might have volumes balanced across all instruments, the sustain issues fixed, etc, etc, there really isn't much point for people to be working on songs when they may need changing again down the track, perhaps more than once. Those people may well have no point logging in at all.

EDIT- aw no Fincin! That's now two of my regular weekly concerts I attend cancelled.
I should also add that I am as yet to spend time in the game and try my songs out. I dare say I'll be back to add more to this topic after that

[Tallon617]

Well done, Turbine...Well done...

[Comstrike]

Why this was allowed into the live game I simply can't understand. I would like to hear an explanation of that and the plan to address this break.

Deeply discouraging. The game may have years left to go, I may not care that long.

I don't see a need to be VIP until they fix this. Nor make use of the store. Nor to accommodate players buying the new "class" in my Kinship or in-game interactions until they fix what should never have been released to the live game.

[SchorschiSchrumpf]

One thing the developers didn't understand yet is that it's not just a couple of minor fixes that are required.

The tones we hear in game are generated from sound samples - I don't know if it's a format like a typical wavetable (sf2 maybe?), but in that one .dat file there are samples that are used to generate the sound that we hear in game.
It looks like most samples were re-edited, also kind of randomly changed in volume. Before they had at least constant amplitudes - meaning they had the same physical volume, but as the human ear perceives physical volumes differently at different pitches they sounded not equally loud over the full range - we learned to live with that.
However that was still much better than what we have now .. the volumes of the singular samples are not (!) chosen by an objective measure (neither the physical volume nor the perceived volume is chosen to be constant). I highly doubt that cleaning up this mess is possible at all - it basically requires to redo all the modifications done so far, but this time properly and using some objective ways to measure the effect of the modifications.

I guess it's reasonable to assume that there is no one in the current developer staff who could do those sort of things.

The only reasonable course of action - also the cheapest one in terms of developer time and chance to do it right - is to role back the old player music system ASAP. Everything else will just generate more costs - either through ppl leaving the game, or for paying developers to fix all the stuff that was broken.

[peachykins]

Why this was allowed into the live game I simply can't understand. I would like to hear an explanation of that and the plan to address this break.

Deeply discouraging. The game may have years left to go, I may not care that long.

I don't see a need to be VIP until they fix this. Nor make use of the store. Nor to accommodate players buying the new "class" in my Kinship or in-game interactions until they fix what should never have been released to the live game.

Oh it's easy to see why they rushed this update. Next week WOW's expansion is released so they wanted to get there update out before then thinking there gonna get all these players from WOW coming to try out there new class. Puhleeeeeeeeeeeeeese. I have to say the marketing & upper management for this game, stinks & there doing more harm to the game then good.

[Swagman]

This is really sad. Who's idea was it that putting in a fix that was broken was better than leaving it as it was? We were willing to wait for a good fix.



And as the flames climbed high into the night
We lost our music, we lost the light
I saw Sauron laughing with delight
The day, the music died

[Geldeger]

This is what happens when a company is driven completely by management, not by developers. You can't start changing a complex 7 year old system like music unless you know what you are doing. It's not like people were leaving because of music system. To the opposite, a lot of people were staying because of it. If you are going to mess with that, this change better come from devs who have enough expertise to handle something so specific and unique as a player music system. You can't just have a manager go "you know what, I need to make a name for myself, I'll change Lotro's music" and give this to a dev whose expertise is building pets and writing quests, and expect it to work well.

And that's probably not a dev's fault, there's a problem with company's culture if you let a fresh manager come in and change a feature that he has no clue about, and with apparently little supervision and quality control.

I think the only right decision here is to roll back to pre-update music system. I doubt Turbine can fix this, they can barely make swans swim above water. Music is an old, unique system. Not every dev can work with something like this. It's also delicate, with many user-made additions and content, so you shouldn't have touched it at all unless you knew you would improve it A LOT.

[Thorwyn99]

Mmmm I feared that would happen after bullroarer. The change to the music system was a good intention but horrible execution.
Honestly just roll it back people have been living with the flaws for years better than it being completely broken.

After the Troll issue and now this, time to take a break of lotro I guess, consider VIP canceled until both is fixed.

[SirWeet]

Until repairs are made DisEnchanted is on hiatus...They just should have left it alone instead of torpedoing all of us. Clarinet makes me ill and the levels are all over the place on everything else. I don't like the pipes as the tone reminds me of a Hurdy Gurdy...just get me a pet monkey and I'll be fine. Horn sounded decent and I didn't test the rest due to having enough already. I'm not very fond of my new instrument "Plinky the Lute" either...Done and rant over.

[Orlor]

Bright Star is on hiatus as well until the music gets fixed. Seriously, Turbine should never have touched this. The music system is the one unique thing in this game that keeps players in the game. The old system was imperfect but we have had 7 years experience in working around it's flaws and it worked! Now, we are stuck with this tragedy.

Turbine, please roll back the music system back to the way it was before.

[Thurallor]

I'm curious. Does anyone have all of the instruments and the ability to make a YouTube or Twitch video? Just playing the scales at the same volume for all of the instruments one after the other would be a succinct characterization of the "state of the music system" and a useful reference for describing problems and comparing performance in different game updates.

For example, if we had such a video, then I could say "at 6:52 you can hear this note is flat".

[Keli]

On the Bullroarer sub forum

EDIT: Sorry, I should expand. The videos are not exactly what you are proposing (scales) but the do demonstrate all the notes together with a visual showing volume.

Later today, I hope to post the same song played pre U15 and post U15 to further demonstrate.

[Mistmorn]

I cannot speak with any kind of authority for Les Beaux Chapeaux as to whether we will continue playing or not. However, I did attend a band practice yesterday and the music was like the shrieks of Merrevail playing in the deepest pit of Sheol. An exaggeration perhaps, but yeah...the music was out of whack. It hurt my ears and gave me a headache trying to impose order on the aural chaos. While there are a few people who want to *try* to soldier on, for the most part it was disheartening to say the least and it does not bode well for any concerts for the foreseeable future.

LBC doesn't just *transcribe* music and play it. There are members of the kin who are innovators with combining different instruments to produce sounds akin to distortion guitars, accordions, and more robust drums that actually sound like drums (as opposed to a child hitting two woodblocks together). When Turbine knowingly broke the music system, they effectively destroyed hundreds to perhaps thousands of hours of work. Just in our kin.

The whole balance of songs is shifted now and when you innovate to make new sounds or make existing sounds better, there is not much wiggle room. But whether a band innovates or not, balance is everything. Having the right instruments blending together to produce a wall of sound that mimics what you can hear in the real world is something I think most of us aspire to and many succeed at. Turbine literally blew up that foundation by destroying the balance of instruments. I'm sure Sauron is well pleased. "If they want music, make them work harder for it!!"

Some bands are still playing and that is a good thing. My hats off to them for being able to adapt so quickly. However, that does nothing to change the fact that Turbine broke something unique to the gaming world and by doing that, broke the hearts of many people who invested time and effort into making Middle Earth a special place to be. I suspect there are going to be more bands than not who are unable or unwilling to adapt because honestly, why should they have to? A week or a month from now if/when this gets fixed, then they would just have to adapt again. That's a time waster pure and simple.

I am a skeptic that Turbine is going do a rollback and I have my doubts about a swift resolution. I hope I'm wrong though.

~~Fionwyn

[Sullo]

Pure speculation here, but consider... 10/10 - U15 beta build 1 released, w/ changes to music system. 10/15 - Layoffs announced. It is possible that the team working on the music system was impacted by the layoffs. The changes in U15 might be what was accomplished up to that point, and now someone else needs to pick up the pieces. We'll never know, but it's something to consider.
</speculation>

Anyway...
Turbine, we are your fans! We know you can do this. Save the music!

[Tallon617]

They need to roll back the music update and give us the old system back while they figure out what the heck to do with the new one. Releasing a broken music system is like putting a bullet to the servers that thrive off the concerts. In a few ways some could see this as a form of payback over the complaints about a certain troll a couple weeks ago. I hope this isn't the case. I'm asking that some sort of general ETA be posted for when this will be fixed. As of now I honestly have no reason to really play the game not even for the new content.

[Ingleton]

I was also excited that some "Love™" was going to be given to the music system... I also am rudely awakened and severely disappointed by this utter shambles. I have transcribed thousands of ABC's using combined instruments, most which is completely trashed by this update.

*Sigh* If this is their idea of "Love™" to the music system, I don't even wanna know the alternative...

I feel the need to remind the devs/brass that posters on the forum don't always represent singular game accounts - many have lots - I for example, have 5.

[Emere]

*Sigh* If this is their idea of "Love™" to the music system, I don't even wanna know the alternative...

Kind of like having someone telling you they love you while they are punching you in the stomach eh?

I understand about the dropping VIP in protest of what they did. Sadly, many of us already dropped it over the GM's condoning griefing of a regular music show on Landroval a few weeks back and will continue as such until a blue name addresses that issue and this one and they follow through with fixing them. We want our music back, and we want our protection from being bullied back. Its a simple matter really, people pay for a product that is worthy of it. The music community sadly is a silent minority I fear. Although we do make up a large number of people, we have never been treated as importantly as we would have liked. Though we have gotten some nice features added long ago with the inclusion of the sync command, it pretty much ended with that until the promise the system would be revamped and made better. The music events are the largest player run events in Lotro and aside from the support at Weatherstock, we've all but been ignored. Seems the most passionate players are the least important ones here.

Fincin
Queen of the Give us a Bunny Cosmetic Pet Foundation

[Grymrock]

reposted in different thread