Reputation Items - An Analysis

[haendas]

Never mind.

[ShireDweller]

I do not think you read what I said. I'll quote myself so you can try again:

...blah blablablah bla and more never-ending blah...

I think what some people do not realize is something I've actually said many times in this thread. Perhaps some people did not read my early posts.......

....blahblablah and Merciful Heaven above, the final few sentences of blah....

Do you really expect ANYONE to hang on your every freaking word here when you pound us over and over again with God help us, So Many Words?

You drive people off with your unrelenting spews of self-important verbiage. No one can keep track of all the stuff you spout off, not even you.

Make a New Year's Resolution to Keep It Simple and to remember that Less is More.

[Silmelin]

More seriously: Put a limit on how many times you can delete/recreate a character on all servers within a 12 month period. Then 'toons' may become characters again and the low level tp farmers would have to slow it down a little

This would hurt people like me quite a lot! I'd be forced to create many many fake accounts just to be able to try different looks when I'm making a new character. They don't look the same in game and on the character creation screen, so you can't tell if you like the appearance unless you actually enter the game.
To make a character I like I first have to create and delete a whole army of characters so I can try out all the combinations and see which one I like best.

---

I wonder if it's a lot of people who are over-doing the TP grinding or if it's just a few? I really hope Turbine finds a way to rein them in without punishing those of us who aren't over-doing it
I don't want to loose the ability to create and delete characters at will. I don't want to be stuck with a billion stacks of rep items I won't be able to use or even sell. Only hoping for some solution that would impact us as little as possible, but I'm guessing it'll be hard to find that solution.

My only idea would be to put a character "age limit" on rep items so you can't use them on a character who is newly made (except Gift Mathoms).


Still... Turbine gave us a great gift by letting us earn TP freely, and when Turbine by doing that reached out their hand, and some people grabbed the whole arm and then some... Is this why we can't have nice things?

Turbine, please do your best not to punish all of us when you decide on how to resolve this Good luck!

[haendas]

This part made me wonder something. Can VIP Beornings use reputation in the intro? The point of getting out of the intro is to go to the skirmish vendors. But is it possible for a VIP to buy the rep on the main toon, mail it to the newly created Beorning, and then use it on the Beorning without even doing the intro itself? If that is possible, then making the Beorning intro longer wouldn't solve the problem anyway.

You cannot complete the rep deeds for turbine points inside the intro, because they require you to be granted "novice" first.

[Mar-Evayave]

You cannot complete the rep deeds for turbine points inside the intro, because those particular deeds require you to be granted "novice" first. You're onto something though. Just stop focusing on the stupid rep items.

Hm... well that much is good anyway. I didn't know the deeds required novice, but now that you mention it, that would explain why I never get any credit for my kills and exploration inside the elf/dwarf and hobbit/human intros.

In any case, I never thought the rep items themselves were the problem. We've had them for years, and it's been several years since we were given a way to use them directly (instead of having to literally trade them in for rep, etc).

I suppose that would even be another option, but it's also one I don't care for. I like being able to "consume" rep items at will. And, while memory is a little fuzzy, some of the barter NPCs weren't even readily accessible. Didn't someone mention the Mathom NPC was inside the Mathom House, and that wasn't accessible until you reach friend or something like that? And if I were to go further out on a limb, didn't it used to be that certain types of rep (like the Angmar rep) couldn't be used immediately? You had to use the 30s until acquaintance, the 50s until friend, and then the 700s, or something like that?

This would hurt people like me quite a lot! I'd be forced to create many many fake accounts just to be able to try different looks when I'm making a new character. They don't look the same in game and on the character creation screen, so you can't tell if you like the appearance unless you actually enter the game.
To make a character I like I first have to create and delete a whole army of characters so I can try out all the combinations and see which one I like best.

Almost missed this part.

I did much the same. I couldn't do the xfer so when I recreated my Riddermark minstrel on Landroval, I had to take a lot of screenshots on Riddermark and tried to find the matches on Landroval. Unfortunately, the appearance in the character creation screen is actually not what the character will look like after exiting. It took hours (and many deleted characters) before I found the correct combination of facial settings.

[Vellrad]

Problem with people farming TP exists solely thanks to incompentence of turbine that has caused there is nothign left to do at game, there is nothing worth of purhcasing for money, and nothing close to beign remotely useful to purchase at skirmish camp.
If they want people to spend money, stop producing idiotic festivals, ugly horses and cosmetincs and terrible quest packs that takes 2-3 days to do everything, and implement something decent.

P.S. I think giving freeloaders like me the shaft only hurts the game because paying customers will have less people to play with. I've abstained from this game for a while now, this will just makes people like me want to ditch and go to greener pastures.

LotRO is no longer a MMO, its a single player game with optional co op and permanent internet connection requirement, with chat function, exaclty the same #### you find on fancy next gen consoles.

[Stonekeep]

The problem is obvious (skirmish rep prices), the solution is simple(revert price change or increase it even more) and most players agree with this. Let's see if Turbine is going to agree with us.

[haendas]

The problem is obvious (skirmish rep prices), the solution is simple(revert price change or increase it even more) and most players agree with this. Let's see if Turbine is going to agree with us.

People in this very thread who feel that rep item use for TP farming produces TP at a rate that is excessive based their entire argument on the claim that marks are too easy to get. The TP/hour rates were not adjusted at all to account for the time spent earning marks because in their opinions marks are just that abundant and easy to aquire. So if they double the cost of rep items does that really change anything? 0 x 2 still equals 0. Or should the people claiming 200 TP/hour from rep items while ignoring the time spent acquiring the marks redo their calculations?

[Vulcwen]

Let's do the calculations:

Intro + turn-in: 20 minutes (0.33 hours)
7 cheapest factions, average cost of 22 marks/item.
Total items required: 7 * 122 = 854
Total cost/turn-in: 18788 Marks
Total gain: 140 TP.

The quickest way to make TP is pelargir 6man I think, which gives roughly 4k marks.
You can run this every 30 minutes (rewards continue even without the quest), meaning, 8k marks/hour.
18788/8000 = 2.3 hours.

So a single turn-in, including the time to get enough marks takes about 2.6 hours or 2 hours and 40 minutes.
This means you get 53 TP/hour with this method, which definitely isn't the most efficient way, effectively very similar to Ered Luin grinding.
Of course, the difference is that you also get other stuff on the way, or often don't specifically grind for the TP, meaning it'd also be OK if the gain was 30-50% of it. Also considering that the mark rewards are always inflating, the price definitely needs to be raised again, but it's not like it's vastly superior to Ered Luin.

That said, the rate to get TP used to be maybe 20% of what it's now (comparing to RoR), with lower mark gains, and higher costs.

[haendas]

It is 50 TP per faction to kindred. 350 TP not 140. Is 6 man pelagrir soloable? I don't think it is a really useful comparison unless it is.

[Vellrad]

Let's do the calculations:

Intro + turn-in: 20 minutes (0.33 hours)
7 cheapest factions, average cost of 22 marks/item.
Total items required: 7 * 122 = 854
Total cost/turn-in: 18788 Marks
Total gain: 140 TP.

The quickest way to make TP is pelargir 6man I think, which gives roughly 4k marks.
You can run this every 30 minutes (rewards continue even without the quest), meaning, 8k marks/hour.
18788/8000 = 2.3 hours.

So a single turn-in, including the time to get enough marks takes about 2.6 hours or 2 hours and 40 minutes.
This means you get 53 TP/hour with this method, which definitely isn't the most efficient way, effectively very similar to Ered Luin grinding.
Of course, the difference is that you also get other stuff on the way, or often don't specifically grind for the TP, meaning it'd also be OK if the gain was 30-50% of it. Also considering that the mark rewards are always inflating, the price definitely needs to be raised again, but it's not like it's vastly superior to Ered Luin.

That said, the rate to get TP used to be maybe 20% of what it's now (comparing to RoR), with lower mark gains, and higher costs.

When we farm marks in kinship, we do 10k+ per hour farming 1 5 minute instance over and over.
But we all have 25% booster and, great gear, experience and brains, and we know how to minimise time spent outside instance.

[haendas]

Despite the mark per hour rates earned by 6mans and twinked kinship groups, I hardly think those people are farming rep items to such an extent that that small subset of players has caused so much of an issue to warrant turbine's attention. I mean how many hours out of a day can you all reliably get your kins and 6man groups to tolerate the monotony?

Sure, people with preexisting surpluses of marks may be spending them down upon realizing the opportunity, but I don't think many people are farming marks for the sole purpose of buying rep items because it just isn't that efficient.

[AccessDenied]

Egads, 6 pages of comments to read through here! I'll try to be brief.



The problem isn't TP Farming.

It's the abuse of TP Farming in conjunction with Disposable Characters that is a problem. The various methods of earning the TP are simply attack vectors or methods and each of these requires consideration. Most of the answers are already in this thread, although none are perfect for all of the players in all possible situations.

To start I would suggest limiting the Disposable Character problem by adding a half-dozen new variables: two timers and matching flags. Basically these would count the time since the last character creation (daily and weekly) and if a character was created, it sets the flag to 1/On/True. The last variable is a simple TP Earned count. If TP Earned >=50 in 24 consecutive hours, Abuser flag = 1/On/True. (By itself this flag does nothing!) But if a character is created and deleted in 24 consecutive hours, you also get Disposable = 1/On/True. (Again, by itself this flag does nothing!) If both flags are true though, now we've found a problematic situation. So basically, if someone is farming TP, tries to delete the character and create a new one, they're automatically locked out of character creation (only, they can still play) for a period of 168 consecutive hours (a week, but starting from the time of abuse, not real or server days). Thereafter they can create another new character, farm 50 TP, and then get locked out of character creation for another week. Or they can just play the game with the character(s) that they've got.

Otherwise, I would suggest that the other suggestions made here be used in tandem:

• Level usage limits (10/15/30 level) for rep items
• Reduce rep item drop rates (~50%) from slain opponents
• Add rep rewards to quests in starter areas (possibly other areas as well depending on severity of abuse)
• Increase rep item prices at Curiosity Vendors in Skirmish Camps to previous values (~2x current pricing)

Now, admittedly, a player only has to wait more then a week and they can bypass my suggestion for dealing with Disposable Characters. But in that time it's fairly likely that either they'll get bored and move on, or they'll feel invested in the character and will hopefully continue to play the game fairly. Also notice that the lock-out occurs on character creation, not deletion. Thus an abusive player may find they've got no character to play at all for a week.

Some type of warning explaining the lock-out has to be included so the player is aware what has occurred and why; I would suggest something with specific verbiage.


I hope I was clear. 6 pages and 3 hrs of reading makes my brain hurt! So I might not have been perfectly clear. Please be kind. (Oh, and for those who want an exact character appearance, I'm sorry but this would interfere with your methodology.)

[Fratonia]

Start a stop watch, earn 200,000 more marks and come back and let us know how long it took. I guess end of 2017 will be your deadline, good luck.

How about you first read what I said before you post such nonsense? Obviously too much to ask...

Yours is also true but incomplete . There is no assumption that people have to spend TIME to acquire marks, it is a fact. It does not matter if they did it for rep items or not. They did spend in-game time, in fact a lot of time getting those marks.

Don't present something as fact that is just your opinion. That makes your arguments look bad.
Math is not just about formulas. It's also about context. If you don't know the context you can't judge someones formula.

I can go to the cellar to get a bottle of wine. While I'm there I might also decide to pick up a bottle of water. Did I spend additional time to go to the cellar and get the water? No. Same applies to my marks.


TP_gained / ( Time_for_rep_usage + Time_to_farm_marks ) = x

If Time_to_farm_marks is 0 because someone wants to know the best ratio (like Mar-Evayave did) and the marks are available already the formula can be abbreviated for those calculations:

TP_gained / Time_for_rep_usage = x

Of course if someone has to spend time to acquire additional marks we have to use the original formula and value x gets smaller.

Despite the mark per hour rates earned by 6mans and twinked kinship groups, I hardly think those people are farming rep items to such an extent that that small subset of players has caused so much of an issue to warrant turbine's attention. I mean how many hours out of a day can you all reliably get your kins and 6man groups to tolerate the monotony?

You don't even need your kinship for that. There are many random groups that run the barrow all the time if that is the instance Vellrad means. Just look back at the Hytbold farming runs. How many days did that go on? I think some people can sustain quite a lot of monotony.

[Vellrad]

You don't even need your kinship for that. There are many random groups that run the barrow all the time if that is the instance Vellrad means. Just look back at the Hytbold farming runs. How many days did that go on? I think some people can sustain quite a lot of monotony.

Difference between pugs and good people is completion time, it can be 50-100% longer on pugs.

I mean how many hours out of a day can you all reliably get your kins and 6man groups to tolerate the monotony?

1.5 hour (boost duration) once per few days, in order to avoid vomiting out of boredom.

Sure, people with preexisting surpluses of marks may be spending them down upon realizing the opportunity, but I don't think many people are farming marks for the sole purpose of buying rep items because it just isn't that efficient.

Its sad that after few hours of hardcore spamborg farm I can hardly afford 2 or 3 emps.

[BangoTwinkletoes]

If i woke up and found myself in notional charge of LOTRO (as well as the whole of WB - so I can also sack the execs responsible for Shadows of Mordor whilst I'm at it) then I'd:


1. Stop TP being handed out free in game. Want TP then buy it.

2. Follow Rift's model and have store items obtainable for currencies that can be earned in game - Marks & Meds and Gold - this game desperately needs more sinks for both currencies.

3. Scrap the Curiosities skirmish camp vendor. If one needs rep barter items or boss drops then go and do the content.

4. Last but not least, scrap a lot of the senseless grinds and hurdles that are in the game that make people reach for TPs and MCs in order to get over them - some of the quest design around the stonedeans being one of them.

If the game's core content is not enough to get people paying to play the game then no amount of gimmicks dressed up as content will result in a profitable outcome. Doubt any of the above will happen.

[Eldarian_Grace]

How about you first read what I said before you post such nonsense? Obviously too much to ask...



Don't present something as fact that is just your opinion. That makes your arguments look bad.
Math is not just about formulas. It's also about context. If you don't know the context you can't judge someones formula.

I can go to the cellar to get a bottle of wine. While I'm there I might also decide to pick up a bottle of water. Did I spend additional time to go to the cellar and get the water? No. Same applies to my marks.

Aggressive much? happy New years.

The point being, the context being that not everyone has quite so many marks, and the rather high TP per hour you'll get from pre earned thousands upon thousands of marks tails off dramatically to nothing when one has 0 marks left.

So again, to provide balance, if you or anyone wanted to earn that many marks how long would it take? because currently in your formula you're setting time taken to earn marks to 0, distorting the figures. In my mind turbine is setting the rules for everyone, not just those few with marks galore.

edit: I am imagining those marks took hundreds of hours of gameplay , unintended consequence or not.

[haendas]

I'm betting that this is really all for nothing. It was probably a very small subset of players that were willing to grind marks and another group of players that had a surplus. I'm also betting that there was a rush of farming the week of the cartwide discount. Now that is over the issue has likely been reduced to the point that it isn't really worth turbine pushing a change and potentially alienating some players caught in the crossfire.

I know I farmed a lot that week (by other means), and have gone back to my normal game play routine.

[robbie1435]

Don't touch my rep farming :O. It's gotten me lots of things that I wouldn't have gotten otherwise.

[Jurny]

I think the only logical solution to this TP Farming/Grinding situation would be to level gate them all. I mean seriously think about it.


If all the rep items had level restrictions placed upon them, nothing would have to been changed in the Skirm camps, other then maybe raise the cost of getting them back to where is was. As it stands right now any one can get rep for most all areas if not all the areas and you can be level 5 to do that. Along with all that FREE TP! What does a person at say level 5, 6, 7, ...etc , need with Bree or Forochel rep for example? Or any of the other higher, yet easily gotten rep items. The list goes on and on. If they put level restrictions on ALL rep items this would at least hinder the TP farming/grinding to some degree.

Of course you will always have those that know how to work the system doing slayer deeds and the map deeds, deleting the character, then rinse and repeat. I'm not really sure how a change to those things would be possible. But something for Turbine to think about for sure.


TP is just far to easy to be gotten on this game, and there are alot of people that take advantage of it!

[Fratonia]

Aggressive much? happy New years.

Not aggressive. I'm just sick of idiotic comments that have nothing to do with what I said. I clearly stated that I have 200k marks available and I didn't farm/grind them. Which part is so hard to understand? The first, the second or both?

The point being, the context being that not everyone has quite so many marks, and the rather high TP per hour you'll get from pre earned thousands upon thousands of marks tails off dramatically to nothing when one has 0 marks left.

So again, to provide balance, if you or anyone wanted to earn that many marks how long would it take? because currently in your formula you're setting time taken to earn marks to 0, distorting the figures. In my mind turbine is setting the rules for everyone, not just those few with marks galore.

I don't care who has so many marks. The point is that there are players who have so many marks and there are even players that know how to farm many marks in short time. Ask Vellrad, he knows a fast way.
Btw. by the time my marks reach 0 IF I would use them to farm TP I would have gained quite a lot TP to buy a lot of things (over 5k TP to be precise if my math is right).

Actually it's not my formula. It's an example for the calculations of Mar-Evayave and Stonekeep. Again, if you had read my posts you would already know that.

[Mar-Evayave]

If i woke up and found myself in notional charge of LOTRO (as well as the whole of WB - so I can also sack the execs responsible for Shadows of Mordor whilst I'm at it) then I'd:

1. Stop TP being handed out free in game. Want TP then buy it.

2. Follow Rift's model and have store items obtainable for currencies that can be earned in game - Marks & Meds and Gold - this game desperately needs more sinks for both currencies.

3. Scrap the Curiosities skirmish camp vendor. If one needs rep barter items or boss drops then go and do the content.

4. Last but not least, scrap a lot of the senseless grinds and hurdles that are in the game that make people reach for TPs and MCs in order to get over them - some of the quest design around the stonedeans being one of them.

If the game's core content is not enough to get people paying to play the game then no amount of gimmicks dressed up as content will result in a profitable outcome. Doubt any of the above will happen.

1. I could get behind this if more content was already free. You use RIFT as an example for #2, so using the same example, the actual content itself (quests and whatnot) are free. If Turbine got rid of free TP earned via gameplay, then they would have to open more content up to compensate, as other MMOs have. I could get behind leaving the expansions as $$$ only, but not the quest packs. The major downside would be that it would devalue the VIP model, since open access to all those quest packs is one of the last real selling points for maintaining a subscription. Even SWTOR lets players at least do the quests (not counting the expansions).

2. I do love how the RIFT store is basically a portable vendor. It's a lot easier to manage inventory with that, and I like being able to have pretty much everything available right there (particularly crafting materials).

3. I would be fine with taking out reputation, since you can solo grind that yourself. But I don't think the rest should be removed. There are also essence reclamation scrolls, some minstrel scrolls, and the rep accelerator. I'm totally fine with leaving those completely untouched. And even the class drops I would advocate to keep. Especially for smaller servers where getting a group together for Urugarth or Carn Dum just isn't going to happen. Unless players get those items, they lose out on class points, and I don't think something about your class should be locked into group content (any more than I think it should be locked into content you have to pay for, even when just solo). Angmar (and its instances) must be bought, just as HD must be bought. Part of our class should not be included in that purchase (I'm still waiting for Turbine to stop doing this and unlock the class trait points in HD and Central Gondor).

4. Yes. I'm fine with a bit of grind, but grind for the sake of grind...? Or too much grind? One reason I don't like festivals at times -- far too grindy when we are supposed to be having a fun and festive time.

I also doubt any of them would happen.

[Rufkin]

I'm betting that this is really all for nothing. It was probably a very small subset of players that were willing to grind marks and another group of players that had a surplus. I'm also betting that there was a rush of farming the week of the cartwide discount. Now that is over the issue has likely been reduced to the point that it isn't really worth turbine pushing a change and potentially alienating some players caught in the crossfire.

I know I farmed a lot that week (by other means), and have gone back to my normal game play routine.

I think you're right, but that doesn't mean Turbine hasn't learned to fix the mistake. I think they obviously realized that it was a mistake, and they made an attempt to fix it. Which I believe they admitted was also a mistake (the timing at least) that they hope to revisit after the holidays. I think they were concerned that their best December Deal weekend wasn't earning them the money they expected. They made mistakes there as well (no advertising until three weeks into the month and even then they avoided the four most common advertising locations - launcher, splash page, Lotro Store ((link at the top of this page)), Facebook).

My advice to Turbine:
Advertise your deals better, if you aren't promoting your sales on your own game's launcher where most players are going to see them, then you are missing an enormous opportunity.

Removing the reputation items from the skirmish camp seems to be the easiest fix. As long as they are there it looks to be WAI and people will use that method to farm TP. I could also live with the level cap limits that Mar-Evayave originally suggested, but I would much rather the item drops and skirmish camp rep items were totally removed and the quests for each area reward the rep needed to get kindred. What better way to reward people for actually buying and playing every zone?

My advice to my fellow players:
Don't expect that some people playing a game that is "Free to Play" will never find a way to "Play for Free" You cannot blame your fellow players for playing for free as long as the game remains F2P. If a person is playing for free, of course they are going to try and figure out what method earns them the most TP the fastest. Why wouldn't they, and how is it wrong for them to do that? Does it make you feel better to put down this type of player? I have avoided posting in this thread for days because of the disgusting take that many of you have posted towards our fellow players. They may not have the money to spend a cent on this game. The game is free, and thus they have just as much right as anyone of us to play it the way they can afford.

A quick reminder that marks cost time to gather. A player using those marks in any way available in the game EARNED that reward, regardless of whether they realized it as they were purposefully gathering marks or as an afterthought. That time was still spent earning that reward.

[Banaticus]

while memory is a little fuzzy, some of the barter NPCs weren't even readily accessible. Didn't someone mention the Mathom NPC was inside the Mathom House, and that wasn't accessible until you reach friend or something like that? And if I were to go further out on a limb, didn't it used to be that certain types of rep (like the Angmar rep) couldn't be used immediately? You had to use the 30s until acquaintance, the 50s until friend, and then the 700s, or something like that?

For all of the earlier areas, Bree, the Shire, Thorin's Hall, Rivendell, you had an NPC outside the rep area that you had to barter with to get to Friend to be able to enter the rep area. I do think the larger rep items required more rep to turn in, although all rep items continued to be able to be used. When you're looking at 150,000 rep, a turn in for 30 rep may have mattered diddely-squat compared to a turn in for 700 rep, though, so people may have tended to ignore the smaller rep items after they started working on getting Kindred after getting Friend (I know I did, they just didn't add up to that much -- you could have stacks and stacks and still not have as much rep as one large rep item). Since you couldn't buy anything until you hit Friend, it didn't matter that you couldn't enter the area -- you weren't going to be able to buy anything anyway.

Intro + turn-in: 20 minutes (0.33 hours)
7 cheapest factions, average cost of 22 marks/item.
Total items required: 7 * 122 = 854
Total cost/turn-in: 18788 Marks
Total gain: 140 TP.

The quickest way to make TP is pelargir 6man I think, which gives roughly 4k marks.
You can run this every 30 minutes (rewards continue even without the quest), meaning, 8k marks/hour.
18788/8000 = 2.3 hours.

So a single turn-in, including the time to get enough marks takes about 2.6 hours or 2 hours and 40 minutes.

Let's just say 10k marks per hour. That's a nice round number. I did a series of Sambrog runs the other day, looking for Anfalas crystals. In an hour, I earned about 10,000 marks. This is only really possible at end game, but then a lot of people have end game characters and this whole thing is about using an end game character to farm stuff to send to a disposable alt. I don't remember how many marks I got from a tier 3 12-man Defend the Prancing Pony, but I'll pay attention the next time I do that.

If you buy a mark doubling scroll from the store, it will more than pay for itself. You'll get 20k marks minus whatever the scroll cost you.

I think the best way is to implement a variable deletion time based on rep. The more total overall rep with every faction that a character has, the longer it has to sit with a delete timer on, unplayable, until it's deleted. After all, if you've ground out a lot of rep then you must have played a long time and if you've played for that very long time then you may not be thinking clearly if you suddenly just want to delete that character, so Turbine should give you a while to think about it before the character is deleted. This sounds entirely plausible and would not only fix the rep farming problem but would help regular players as well. If you're up to kindred with the starter areas, then it should take a week for your character to be deleted (I think a week is a decent cap -- it shouldn't take longer than a week to delete a character). If you don't have rep with anyone, then your character is instantly deleted. If you have a bunch of rep with one area, like you played a class long enough to hit Ally with Bree, then maybe it takes a day to delete the character.

[Laerien]

Ok lets calculate since the 10k mark/hour was mentioned.


- Kindred with Men of Bree (50 TP) needs 122 rep items x 19 marks = 2318 marks

- So 10.000 marks = 4.314 "kindreds" or 215TP


Sounds good?
NO!


- Now you need 5 beornings to get those 4.3 kindreds (note that the 5th Beorning won't get kindred, the math purpose is to measure TP/hr) or 215tp. Let's say 5 Beorning takes 10 min (intro) + 2 min (travel+clicking) = 1 hour


Then all the process took 2 hours... just saying


- So 215TP/2 = 107TP per hour