Blue line = Boo!

[DiogoVP]

Ok, I don't have a beorning on live yet so I've only been playing it on Bullroarer for two reasons: test it and see if I like the class. At the end of the day, I really liked it, BUUUT, I think there's a lot of things to change.

What's up with blue line of the beornings? Their ability for tanking is the worst. No block rating, some really bad skills. If you want to be a little decent tank you gotta have lots of evade and parry rating. Not much good tanking buffs, I think there is only one that reduces damage by 60% for some seconds, but that's all. Not much AoE skills to hold aggro either. I don't think it is worth having a setting for blue line beorning. Very uninteresting. Unless it is changed to have more tanking buffs and a block rating. Otherwise it'll be a silly line.

[Lionir]

Good point , replace the useless blue tank line into aoe line i think bears can do aoes more than champs , seriously a wild bear can;t do whatever champ race can do ..

[Gladnagl]

I tried, I really tried to make Blue tree work, and have that be my tanking build for Beorning. My toon is up to Level 35 (due to playing in a slow leveling group), and granted there will be more skills coming until Level 50 that change the class dynamics. I have tanked GA:Arboretum, GB: Maze, Tomb of Elendil, Glinghant, Haudh Valandil, and Ost Elendil. Except for a brief time in Maze when I switched to Red, I did all my tanking in.....Yellow tree!

Arguably it's as much turtleing as it is tanking. I can heal through most of what the mobs throw, all but the highest spike damage. But here are the other skills effects that a Yellow Beorning (only) does that would make a Blue Guardian blush;

1) Relentless Maul/Aid the Assault. In a six man party I'm healing about 2,500 morale per second for up to 8 seconds. That generates a lot of threat.
2) Rejuvenating Bellow: I'm generating over 6,000 morale healing in one use, and with Desperate Shouts the first use is free. For 20 Wrath I get that again, and again... See 1).
3) Leveling Roar. 2 second knockdown. I suspect it has a chance of generating an FM. 30 second CD is not shabby. Gated only by 10 Wrath cost.
4) Shake Free. Gives me a large morale bubble, and I don't actually have to be stunned to trigger it. I often forget I have it because it's mostly not needed.
5) Crippling Stings. It's like the Champion's Hamstring, except it's a DoT.
6) Nature's Mend. At about 1K morale heal, it's a small threat generator. Except I can trigger it every 5 seconds, and it generates, not consumes Wrath.

Damage: Even in Yellow I'm pumping better numbers than my Champion at the same level. I may lose threat for a few seconds to a DPS spike in Bear form, and about two swipes later I have the mobs attention.

So what does the Blue line offer me besides a damage reflect and less healing? Still scratching my head trying to figure that out.

[DiogoVP]

Good point , replace the useless blue tank line into aoe line i think bears can do aoes more than champs , seriously a wild bear can;t do whatever champ race can do ..

Yes, I would like that. Although I am not sure the developers would be willing to make such a radical change two months after the class was released. But that would be awesome, as long as some traits from blue line don't go away. I like the wrath over time we can get with that healing skill, for example. lol

[chosen1]

Im lvl 86 now and im just going to keep blue line until lvl 100 ...for some wierd reason im really wanting this trait tree to work ...i like alot of the threat from mele skills ..just think that the class can fell a little squishy from time to time !...but ill wait until i have my essence gear to try and balance some of the lack of parry and evade ..i really think this is a diamond in the rough ...just need to see how it goes from here to 100.. just my 2 cents worth ...

[Saro]

At level 62, I've run Blue line exclusively since around level 35. I've only done solo content, so I can't speak to issues regarding group play. I enjoy Blue because it's much like my Warden in regards to what I feel is a balanced set of offense, defense and self-healing. Yet I keep reading great reviews of Yellow, even for soloing and tanking, so today I will give it a try.

Note: of course there is no block rating because that requires a shield. Keep in mind that the blue tree provides or a substantial increase in physical mitigation/armor rating while in bear form.

[DiogoVP]

At level 62, I've run Blue line exclusively since around level 35. I've only done solo content, so I can't speak to issues regarding group play. I enjoy Blue because it's much like my Warden in regards to what I feel is a balanced set of offense, defense and self-healing. Yet I keep reading great reviews of Yellow, even for soloing and tanking, so today I will give it a try.

Note: of course there is no block rating because that requires a shield. Keep in mind that the blue tree provides or a substantial increase in physical mitigation/armor rating while in bear form.

Not substantial enough. Wardens, Cappies and Guards can do that A LOT better. It's not a problem for them to get to +90% mitigation with tank buff. And you probably haven't played a yellow cappy or a yellow guardian. Otherwise you would know that they block WITHOUT shield if they are using a two handed weapon.

[Nupfkuchen]

I think giving us a block would not solve everything but at least give us a chance. Looks like they will give us more aoe with the next patch but that won't be enough. As might base our evade is low and right now we can only rely on parry to avoid damage (I think my Beorning has a 1.8% chance to evade).
So yeah please give us the same ability as a yellow captain to block and maybe a skill that generates wrath everytime we get hit with a critical hit so we can stay in bear form longer. Something!

[DiogoVP]

I think giving us a block would not solve everything but at least give us a chance. Looks like they will give us more aoe with the next patch but that won't be enough. As might base our evade is low and right now we can only rely on parry to avoid damage (I think my Beorning has a 1.8% chance to evade).
So yeah please give us the same ability as a yellow captain to block and maybe a skill that generates wrath everytime we get hit with a critical hit so we can stay in bear form longer. Something!

As far as I remember, they are not giving us more AoE on blue line with the next patch. I played beorning during all the builds from this update and don't recall that. And yes, giving us block rating only won't be satisfactory. What about that buff that gives us +10% evade? What the heck is that? LOL
It is so weird how a class that is given 5 morale per vitality point can be a much worse tank than a champion or a cappy. It is sad. At least I don't have to worry about buying another spec slot when I finally create my beorning on live.

[Vulcwen]

As far as I remember, they are not giving us more AoE on blue line with the next patch. I played beorning during all the builds from this update and don't recall that. And yes, giving us block rating only won't be satisfactory. What about that buff that gives us +10% evade? What the heck is that? LOL
It is so weird how a class that is given 5 morale per vitality point can be a much worse tank than a champion or a cappy. It is sad. At least I don't have to worry about buying another spec slot when I finally create my beorning on live.

Counter should be buffed to +20% evade (possibly a legacy to increase it to 25%..), and be able to be kept up all the time.
But don't forget that champs can't block either (they do have 10% higher mits tho...).

And I've said before.. Armour buffs need to be replaced by plain mitigation (in percentage) or -incoming damage buffs. It makes no sense to increase armour rating (so mitigation rating) actively when you aim for it being already capped passively.

[DiogoVP]

Counter should be buffed to +20% evade (possibly a legacy to increase it to 25%..), and be able to be kept up all the time.
But don't forget that champs can't block either (they do have 10% higher mits tho...).

And I've said before.. Armour buffs need to be replaced by plain mitigation (in percentage) or -incoming damage buffs. It makes no sense to increase armour rating (so mitigation rating) actively when you aim for it being already capped passively.

Afaik champs cannot block on blue line, yes. But cappies and guards can block with 2h weapon on yellow line, both.
You're saying there should be a legacy like that or there IS a legacy the does that?
And yeah, guards have the fortification buff that can give up to +10% mitigation and +20% mitigation with Litany of Defiance. Both buffs can stack and grant the guardian +90% mitigation if he is capped with mitigation. Wardens can also have +90% mitigation with Defiant Challenge. THOSE are tanking classes!
If beorning is going to be a good tank it needs some serious avoidance and mitigation buffs (in percentage, as you suggested). And also they need more AoE otherwise we'll just be using force attacks to hold aggro.

[Mcgiver]

Afaik champs cannot block on blue line, yes. But cappies and guards can block with 2h weapon on yellow line, both.
You're saying there should be a legacy like that or there IS a legacy the does that?
And yeah, guards have the fortification buff that can give up to +10% mitigation and +20% mitigation with Litany of Defiance. Both buffs can stack and grant the guardian +90% mitigation if he is capped with mitigation. Wardens can also have +90% mitigation with Defiant Challenge. THOSE are tanking classes!
If beorning is going to be a good tank it needs some serious avoidance and mitigation buffs (in percentage, as you suggested). And also they need more AoE otherwise we'll just be using force attacks to hold aggro.

dont see a big difference between a +40% mitigation buff and a -60% incoming damage debuff with +1% morale for every hit (maybe a cd reduction on hit like cappy las stand)
and i dont care if i hold aggro via force taunts or damage so more aoe atleast in blue line isnt necesary -> if the force taunts are potent enough

[DiogoVP]

dont see a big difference between a +40% mitigation buff and a -60% incoming damage debuff with +1% morale for every hit (maybe a cd reduction on hit like cappy las stand)
and i dont care if i hold aggro via force taunts or damage so more aoe atleast in blue line isnt necesary -> if the force taunts are potent enough

hahahaha, then you have A LOT to learn. No offences.

[Mcgiver]

hahahaha, then you have A LOT to learn. No offences.

why? like defiant challenge its a skill for trash mob tanking they usually hitting low if you add on every hit+ the bped hits ~+300morale non crit heal you have the same damage reduction
if you have to tank a single boss thickend hide is even better

[Vulcwen]

dont see a big difference between a +40% mitigation buff and a -60% incoming damage debuff with +1% morale for every hit (maybe a cd reduction on hit like cappy las stand)
and i dont care if i hold aggro via force taunts or damage so more aoe atleast in blue line isnt necesary -> if the force taunts are potent enough

For wardens, in a raid setting (55% mits), a +40% mit buff (with legacy) means -89% incoming damage. (that's 12s duration, 20s cd...)
Thickened hide, while a good emergency skill, has a 2m cd and 20s duration (with legacy).

In response to other posts, going for more concrete suggestions:
Counter: +20% evade, 20s duration, 40s cd. (a new legacy can buff it to 25%)
Counterattack: 1s cd, reduces the active cooldown of counter by 5s.
Guarded Attack: -20% Incoming Damage for 10s.
Worthy Adversary: +20% Max Morale and +5% Physical Mitigation in bear form.
Down But Not Out: Man form: 20% morale heal when below 20%, Bear form: (1 time) you cannot be defeated (so, you're left with 1 morale), +50 Wrath, +25% Incoming Healing for 10s. 1m cd
Defensively Minded: Guarded Buff decreases incoming damage by 4% per stack (stacks 3 times, tiers down on expiration).

This results in..
60% Phys mits, 55% tactical, possible almost 100% uptime -32% incoming damage (although it'd require some form-dancing to pull that off), possible 20% parry, 40%-45% evade.
In this case Thickened Hide would push the incoming damage reduction to 92%.. (would be over 100% in the moors.. that needs some fixing..)

[DiogoVP]

why? like defiant challenge its a skill for trash mob tanking they usually hitting low if you add on every hit+ the bped hits ~+300morale non crit heal you have the same damage reduction
if you have to tank a single boss thickend hide is even better

Let's say you have mitigation at the cap, so you have +50% mitigation, which means a mob will hit you for x damage.
If you get +40% mitigation, you'll have +90% mitigation and the same mob hitting you for x/5 damage.
So every hit you receive is gonna be 5x weaker than it was without the buff. If you were aggroing 5 mobs receiving around 2000 damage per second, now you will receive 400 damage per second.
Now let's say you have 30k morale and for every hit you recover 1% of your morale, then you'll get +300 morale. Do you think that the mobs on raids or tier 2 fellowship instances will hit you for 300 morale? So you'll ended up receiving much more damage than you can recover by youself with the buff.

[DiogoVP]

dont see a big difference between a +40% mitigation buff and a -60% incoming damage debuff with +1% morale for every hit (maybe a cd reduction on hit like cappy las stand)
and i dont care if i hold aggro via force taunts or damage so more aoe atleast in blue line isnt necesary -> if the force taunts are potent enough

Also you can't rely on force taunts all the time, their duration will always be less than the cooldown of the skill that force taunts the target. So, if you have like 4 force taunt skills, there will always be one time that they will be on cooldown and you won't be able to force taunt a target to hit you. Which means your threat will be very low because of your lack of dps on the mobs, so any DPS or Healer or AOE - champs - will become priority of the mobs when they are not forced to attack you. Those are the times the mob can escape from your range to attack someone that attacks from range and is far from you.
Not to mention those force taunts skills usually have a limited number of mobs it applies their effect on. Usually the force taunts are used to get other mobs in range for you to attack them with your AoE skills so you can get more threat over time.

[Saro]

Not substantial enough. Wardens, Cappies and Guards can do that A LOT better. It's not a problem for them to get to +90% mitigation with tank buff. And you probably haven't played a yellow cappy or a yellow guardian. Otherwise you would know that they block WITHOUT shield if they are using a two handed weapon.

No, I haven't played Captain or Guardian, so I was unaware of that mechanic. Thanks for setting me straight. I know just how well my Warden can manage mitigation, and mine is not particularly well geared for lvl 100.

I have a theory that Beorning devs tracked what happened with Druids in WoW. The favored class of that game's producers, there have frequently been times when druids were potentially the best at all three roles-tanking, dps and healing. That led to a lot of infuriating smugness among druid players, and frustration among those who played other classes. It also led to an exasperating cycle of nerfs and buffs to all classes that makes some of the worst changes in LOTRO seem mild by comparison. So the Beorning team wanted to create a shapeshifting class that was fun to play, appealed to those who like the lore, but remained balanced and didn't make any other class obsolete. Accomplishing that is, IMO, going to take many months of tweaking. Since wise devs know it's always better to buff than to nerf, we are probably looking at the low end of what they consider the preferred numbers for stats and skills.

Perhaps another factor is that of all the classes, the Beorning is the one arguably the most oriented toward role playing, and perhaps the devs are thinking that the RP folks won't be as concerned about absolute performance of the class.(just as some players prefer weapons that may not offer the highest dps, but they like using them) Hey, I get to turn into a bear! So what if I can't tank as well as a guardian or warden.

On a related note (related to my previous post) I do have to say the class perplexes me. I've played a couple of days now in Yellow line. Once I adjusted my thinking toward how to manage wrath a bit differently from Blue, I'm scratching my head a bit. I don't take that much more damage that the more powerful heals don't make up for, I'm putting out as much DPS, so other than a few situational skills, I'm wondering what Blue or Red really have to offer at level 100? It's not unlike what happened with Champions, where the Yellow, AOE tree ended up doing better single target DPS than the Red DPS tree.

[Nupfkuchen]

On a related note (related to my previous post) I do have to say the class perplexes me. I've played a couple of days now in Yellow line. Once I adjusted my thinking toward how to manage wrath a bit differently from Blue, I'm scratching my head a bit. I don't take that much more damage that the more powerful heals don't make up for, I'm putting out as much DPS, so other than a few situational skills, I'm wondering what Blue or Red really have to offer at level 100? It's not unlike what happened with Champions, where the Yellow, AOE tree ended up doing better single target DPS than the Red DPS tree.

Once you get geared you will experience a major damage increase in red line over yellow line. The free executes alone make up a big part of your overall dps (we will have to see how the patch changes that). Yellow line is very powerful and I love it but can't compare in turns of raw dps. Is still switch to it when I fight a boss alone and need the extra heals (last boss in school for example). But I guess it is also a question of playstyle: do I want to kill stuff fast before it can hurt me or do I want to out heal the damage and outlast my enemy. Both can be fun.

The real problem is how the blue can't compare with either yellow or red. Mitigation are low (compared to other tanks), heals are low and damage is low.

[DiogoVP]

Once you get geared you will experience a major damage increase in red line over yellow line. The free executes alone make up a big part of your overall dps (we will have to see how the patch changes that). Yellow line is very powerful and I love it but can't compare in turns of raw dps. Is still switch to it when I fight a boss alone and need the extra heals (last boss in school for example). But I guess it is also a question of playstyle: do I want to kill stuff fast before it can hurt me or do I want to out heal the damage and outlast my enemy. Both can be fun.

The real problem is how the blue can't compare with either yellow or red. Mitigation are low (compared to other tanks), heals are low and damage is low.

You forgot to say avoidances are also low - or very low - compared to other tanks, haha.

[Gladnagl]

Looks like Blue line was changed the least of the three in the 15.2 update. I'll try it again, but with Red and Yellow looking even better, my expectations for Blue are even lower than when this thread started.

And reducing reflect from 30% to 15%, was that really necessary with an already gimped tree?!

[DiogoVP]

Looks like Blue line was changed the least of the three in the 15.2 update. I'll try it again, but with Red and Yellow looking even better, my expectations for Blue are even lower than when this thread started.

And reducing reflect from 30% to 15%, was that really necessary with an already gimped tree?!

I agree a 100% lol

Blue line is a big of a shame sadly.

[Dairos]

Vigilant roar is nice when you trait Thunderous roar as you will damage every single enemy in a 10m radius (even on your back). If you have enough points in red line, rush (lumber)+Thunderous roar will stun everybody around you.

Mitigations are 55% phys and 55% tactical with the corresponding traits. Guarded attack now is quite easy to tier up and keep so another +10% to physical mitigation. Not sure what the -5% mitigated damage from the two BB jewelry set means but all in all makes our mitigations quite nice (I know we can't still block).

And about the 10% evade from counter; I know it's not a lot but in my opinion the important part is that evading unlocks the counter attack skill, which is the only way of actively generating wrath while in bear form. It has its uses.

So Ive had a great fun levelling all my way to 100 in blue line; it feels solid and not too overpowered (I know our dps in blue can't compare to that in red)

[Mcgiver]

Let's say you have mitigation at the cap, so you have +50% mitigation, which means a mob will hit you for x damage.
If you get +40% mitigation, you'll have +90% mitigation and the same mob hitting you for x/5 damage.
So every hit you receive is gonna be 5x weaker than it was without the buff. If you were aggroing 5 mobs receiving around 2000 damage per second, now you will receive 400 damage per second.
Now let's say you have 30k morale and for every hit you recover 1% of your morale, then you'll get +300 morale. Do you think that the mobs on raids or tier 2 fellowship instances will hit you for 300 morale? So you'll ended up receiving much more damage than you can recover by youself with the buff.

you only get +40% if enough targets are hit by dc so atleast +5
no i didnt mean they hit for 300 moral if they hit you with the 50% mitigated damage -60% and on every hit +300morale(dont know if the heal can crit) its as strong as dc
dont know which instances you are running with +6 mobs hitting with high spike damage if you take a look at your combat log they hit around 500-max 2k damage (trash mobs)
and if you do a boss fight its even stronger because dc only provides a 8% mitigation buff

[Coeprandua]

Vigilant roar is nice when you trait Thunderous roar as you will damage every single enemy in a 10m radius (even on your back). If you have enough points in red line, rush (lumber)+Thunderous roar will stun everybody around you.

Mitigations are 55% phys and 55% tactical with the corresponding traits. Guarded attack now is quite easy to tier up and keep so another +10% to physical mitigation. Not sure what the -5% mitigated damage from the two BB jewelry set means but all in all makes our mitigations quite nice (I know we can't still block).

And about the 10% evade from counter; I know it's not a lot but in my opinion the important part is that evading unlocks the counter attack skill, which is the only way of actively generating wrath while in bear form. It has its uses.

So Ive had a great fun levelling all my way to 100 in blue line; it feels solid and not too overpowered (I know our dps in blue can't compare to that in red)

It's a shame no one responded to this, because it says it all. You are the only person in this thread that actually tried beorning tanking, Dairos. The op is way off on many accounts. I am in the process of gearing my beorning for tanking atm. I have tanked many things successfully, including SG t2c in a pug.

@DiegoVP:

No offence, but there is such a thing as "love of tanking." Beorning =/= Guardian. There is no pride in tanking as a guard any more. There is no pride in tanking as a warden. Quite the contrary! These classes have been made so powerful, you literally belittle yourself by playing them. A lot of people can see this and we just can't have sufficient respect for a guard tank any more, or a warden of any sort. Turbine is perfectly right in not making the beorning another guardian. I used to identify with my guard 100%, it was my heart and my reason to play Lotro. But I had to quit playing it months ago for these reasons.

The beorning is just perfectly well done. It fits the traditional role of tank, because it's not invincible. It's not built for soloing and for heroic postures, it needs a healer to tank. If you wanna be a hero, you actually have to work for it. Now for the specifics:

The beorning has 65% physical mitigation (50% rating, 5% trait, 10% guarded buff - that is up 95% of the time), 55% tactical mitigation. The beorning is stuck around 40% parry+evade due to diminishing returns, which can be buffed to 50% with Counter for a limited time. When you fully gear a bear for tanking, maxing mits and avoidances, you can achieve 60% cd and 30-35k morale in bear form. This is decent enough for a tank. You also have Thickened Hide to reduce inc damage for a limited time, especially useful at the beginning of each pull.

Note: the beorning is disadvantaged compared to other classes in not having proper might essence armour, not having gold bb sets for tanking.

The beorning has the crazies aoe threat in Lotro! AoE melee taunt, Thunderous Roar with unlimited targets within 10m in a full circle, Relentless Maul basically the same. Claw Swipe, not a taunt but aoe. In fact, the only shortcoming is we don't have a ST taunt. I basically almost fell off the chair laughing when you said the person tanking through taunts has a lot to learn about tanking. You, my friend, never geared up a tank post-HD, otherwise you would know better than to make such statements. (Any tank will know why, if you don't, Im not gonna go into this further.)

Another thing that is completely missed here is the bear's ability to debuff the enemy in MAJOR ways. Slam (-10% outgoing damage), Armour Crush (+15% inc damage), Bee Swarm (+30% induction time and attack duration).

The beorning also has 2 self-heals, Recuperate being spammable.

Another correction: Counterattack is not for defensive purposes at all. It's mit buff is overwritten by the guarded buff that is always active anyway. It's only purpose is to generate wrath in bear form along with Vicious Claw.

So tanking goes like this:

You build some wrath pre-fight (Biting Edge, Hearten, Rush, Ferocious Roar). You pop Thickened Hide and go in starting off with Slam, Biting Edge for taunt and some other attacks if needed to max wrath, then transform. Thunderous Roar (no wrath cost), debuffs, Relentless Maul. Roar again, and you locked aggro with your wrath being halfway down. Now pop Counter and use Counterattack and Vicious Claw to build wrath to max. Spam Recuperate and swap back to man form for a quick Hearten as needed. Sit back and relax while trying to keep debuffs up 100% of the time. A trick I like to do in order to aggro many mobs easily is I run in the crowd, use Relentless maul and slowly turn a full circle to get the attention of everything around me, then back out of the crowd so that they are all positioned in front of me.

It all sounds too easy, but the fun part is when RM gets interrupted, when you get cc'ed, when you didnt have time to build enough wrath for whatever reason and you fall out. CC affects the bear way worse than other tanks because it stops wrath management.

Furthermore, I fully agree with all the suggestions here as they would probebly be needed for t2 raiding. However, pls note, the beorning has much to bring to a t2 raid already.