Blue line = Boo!

[DiogoVP]

It's a shame no one responded to this, because it says it all. You are the only person in this thread that actually tried beorning tanking, Dairos. The op is way off on many accounts. I am in the process of gearing my beorning for tanking atm. I have tanked many things successfully, including SG t2c in a pug.

@DiegoVP:

No offence, but there is such a thing as "love of tanking." Beorning =/= Guardian. There is no pride in tanking as a guard any more. There is no pride in tanking as a warden. Quite the contrary! These classes have been made so powerful, you literally belittle yourself by playing them. A lot of people can see this and we just can't have sufficient respect for a guard tank any more, or a warden of any sort. Turbine is perfectly right in not making the beorning another guardian. I used to identify with my guard 100%, it was my heart and my reason to play Lotro. But I had to quit playing it months ago for these reasons.

The beorning is just perfectly well done. It fits the traditional role of tank, because it's not invincible. It's not built for soloing and for heroic postures, it needs a healer to tank. If you wanna be a hero, you actually have to work for it. Now for the specifics:

The beorning has 65% physical mitigation (50% rating, 5% trait, 10% guarded buff - that is up 95% of the time), 55% tactical mitigation. The beorning is stuck around 40% parry+evade due to diminishing returns, which can be buffed to 50% with Counter for a limited time. When you fully gear a bear for tanking, maxing mits and avoidances, you can achieve 60% cd and 30-35k morale in bear form. This is decent enough for a tank. You also have Thickened Hide to reduce inc damage for a limited time, especially useful at the beginning of each pull.

Note: the beorning is disadvantaged compared to other classes in not having proper might essence armour, not having gold bb sets for tanking.

The beorning has the crazies aoe threat in Lotro! AoE melee taunt, Thunderous Roar with unlimited targets within 10m in a full circle, Relentless Maul basically the same. Claw Swipe, not a taunt but aoe. In fact, the only shortcoming is we don't have a ST taunt. I basically almost fell off the chair laughing when you said the person tanking through taunts has a lot to learn about tanking. You, my friend, never geared up a tank post-HD, otherwise you would know better than to make such statements. (Any tank will know why, if you don't, Im not gonna go into this further.)

Another thing that is completely missed here is the bear's ability to debuff the enemy in MAJOR ways. Slam (-10% outgoing damage), Armour Crush (+15% inc damage), Bee Swarm (+30% induction time and attack duration).

The beorning also has 2 self-heals, Recuperate being spammable.

Another correction: Counterattack is not for defensive purposes at all. It's mit buff is overwritten by the guarded buff that is always active anyway. It's only purpose is to generate wrath in bear form along with Vicious Claw.

So tanking goes like this:

You build some wrath pre-fight (Biting Edge, Hearten, Rush, Ferocious Roar). You pop Thickened Hide and go in starting off with Slam, Biting Edge for taunt and some other attacks if needed to max wrath, then transform. Thunderous Roar (no wrath cost), debuffs, Relentless Maul. Roar again, and you locked aggro with your wrath being halfway down. Now pop Counter and use Counterattack and Vicious Claw to build wrath to max. Spam Recuperate and swap back to man form for a quick Hearten as needed. Sit back and relax while trying to keep debuffs up 100% of the time. A trick I like to do in order to aggro many mobs easily is I run in the crowd, use Relentless maul and slowly turn a full circle to get the attention of everything around me, then back out of the crowd so that they are all positioned in front of me.

It all sounds too easy, but the fun part is when RM gets interrupted, when you get cc'ed, when you didnt have time to build enough wrath for whatever reason and you fall out. CC affects the bear way worse than other tanks because it stops wrath management.

Furthermore, I fully agree with all the suggestions here as they would probebly be needed for t2 raiding. However, pls note, the beorning has much to bring to a t2 raid already.

Looks like you know everything, mate. I didn't say he had a lot to learn only because he thinks he can hold aggro all the time with force taunts. I was talking also about saying that he doesn't see a difference between a buff that makes you heal for a small amount for every hit received and a -90% incoming damage buff that a guardian and a warden can easilly get with their mitigation buffs. But anyway, you can't rely on that because if you're using force taunts all the time and someone has more than threat than you do, as soon as the force taunt effect is gone, the enemy will attack someone else and you might have all your force taunt skills on cooldown.

So here goes:
- Self heals? WOW, that's so awesome... but I thought that was a healer's job to heal myself? I mean, having one self heal to use when you need an urgent heal is good, but seriously, you're saying that's a big deal?

- Oh my friend, a guardian has +70% mitigation 95% of the time with his fortification buff. Wardens have a mitigation debuff that if correctly traited it is a lot better than that +15% incoming damage debuff that really shouldn't even be a tanking debuff. I have to say I think those debuffs that you showed and I already *knew* about are ####.

But again, you said that guardians and wardens are indeed so much better at tanking, yet you're trying to show me how awesome their buffs and debuffs are. lol
Well, I guess that's where I say: good luck on your T2C runs tanking with your beorning. I am not going to waste more time arguing. I try to be reasonable in my critics, but you are clearly making fun of me as I am some kind of idiot person that deserved to be treated like ####. Good luck on getting group leaders to choose your tanking beorning over a guard or warden

[Coeprandua]

Looks like you know everything, mate. I didn't say he had a lot to learn only because he thinks he can hold aggro all the time with force taunts. I was talking also about saying that he doesn't see a difference between a buff that makes you heal for a small amount for every hit received and a -90% incoming damage buff that a guardian and a warden can easilly get with their mitigation buffs. But anyway, you can't rely on that because if you're using force taunts all the time and someone has more than threat than you do, as soon as the force taunt effect is gone, the enemy will attack someone else and you might have all your force taunt skills on cooldown.

So here goes:
- Self heals? WOW, that's so awesome... but I thought that was a healer's job to heal myself? I mean, having one self heal to use when you need an urgent heal is good, but seriously, you're saying that's a big deal?

- Oh my friend, a guardian has +70% mitigation 95% of the time with his fortification buff. Wardens have a mitigation debuff that if correctly traited it is a lot better than that +15% incoming damage debuff that really shouldn't even be a tanking debuff. I have to say I think those debuffs that you showed and I already *knew* about are ####.

But again, you said that guardians and wardens are indeed so much better at tanking, yet you're trying to show me how awesome their buffs and debuffs are. lol
Well, I guess that's where I say: good luck on your T2C runs tanking with your beorning. I am not going to waste more time arguing. I try to be reasonable in my critics, but you are clearly making fun of me as I am some kind of idiot person that deserved to be treated like ####. Good luck on getting group leaders to choose your tanking beorning over a guard or warden

LOL no no and no. I am not making fun of you and I do not think that I know everything. My post was more of a reaction to everyone's whining about the beorning blue line. No need to argue, as we are on the same page here. We both agree that guards and wardens are way better tanks. I was just trying to say that there might be more fun in beorning tanking because it's not so easy as guard and warden tanking.

I thought I was clear when I said beorning tanks need a healer. The beorning self-heals are not really good, they are just better than nothing. The debuffs are actually great.

As for good luck finding a tanking position - I don't run with dumb people. If you are prejudiced against the bear on account of all the unfounded rumour you have heard without actually giving the class a try yourself, if you think that Turbine is some bunch of idiots that can't put together a semi-decent tanking line and you'd rather believe the laud-mouth underage critics quite blindly, you, my friend, classify as dumb. I would never join your group and I would kick you out of mine. I don't deal in narrow-minded people, thank you. (Again, don't take offence, I'm just talking in general.)

If you won't take it from me, please read the post I quoted above. It says it all.

Edit: Among all the insults, I always forget to say the most important thing. Good tanks know to kite.

[DiogoVP]

LOL no no and no. I am not making fun of you and I do not think that I know everything. My post was more of a reaction to everyone's whining about the beorning blue line. No need to argue, as we are on the same page here. We both agree that guards and wardens are way better tanks. I was just trying to say that there might be more fun in beorning tanking because it's not so easy as guard and warden tanking.

I thought I was clear when I said beorning tanks need a healer. The beorning self-heals are not really good, they are just better than nothing. The debuffs are actually great.

As for good luck finding a tanking position - I don't run with dumb people. If you are prejudiced against the bear on account of all the unfounded rumour you have heard without actually giving the class a try yourself, if you think that Turbine is some bunch of idiots that can't put together a semi-decent tanking line and you'd rather believe the laud-mouth underage critics quite blindly, you, my friend, classify as dumb. I would never join your group and I would kick you out of mine. I don't deal in narrow-minded people, thank you. (Again, don't take offence, I'm just talking in general.)

If you won't take it from me, please read the post I quoted above. It says it all.

Edit: Among all the insults, I always forget to say the most important thing. Good tanks know to kite.

The debuffs are great? I guess that makes wardens and champs debuffs hugely great. I am not prejudiced. I try to do reasonable critics and I tend to have good reasons to believe in what I believe. But hey, feel free to call me dumb. I guess that just makes you the troll of the thread.
And "if you think that Turbine is some bunch of idiots that can't put together a semi-decent tanking line and you'd rather believe the laud-mouth underage critics quite blindly, you, my friend, classify as dumb"?
Where on earth did you presume that I am listening to someone's critic? As far as I am concerned I was the one who started the thread. And I didn't say Turbine is some bunch of idiots, that is all YOUR interpretation, just like you interpretated many of my speechs wrongly.
They CAN do mistakes YES. Most of the classes's trait trees would be GREATLY different if it wasn't for THE PLAYERS's feedback back on HD beta. They listen. They do not test the game as much, that's why they NEED our feedback, our time to test things. Unfortunely blue line is so bad that most of the our feedbacks tend to focus on red and yellow line. They KNEW that Beornings could change a lot after they released them, because they released them earlier than everyone was thinking and they knew that it was because they wanted feedback from the other players besides the beta testers. But, hey, I just think you're naive. And this is my last post replying to you.

Edit: Good tanks know how to kite? Did I say anything about kiting? LOL
I get the impression you might be resentful of someone and are trying to tell me what you didn't get to tell him.
And you can't say +40% parry+evade, friend, that gives the impression that their chance to avoid an attack is 40%, which doesn't work like that.

[Coeprandua]

The debuffs are great? I guess that makes wardens and champs debuffs hugely great. I am not prejudiced. I try to do reasonable critics and I tend to have good reasons to believe in what I believe. But hey, feel free to call me dumb. I guess that just makes you the troll of the thread.
And "if you think that Turbine is some bunch of idiots that can't put together a semi-decent tanking line and you'd rather believe the laud-mouth underage critics quite blindly, you, my friend, classify as dumb"?
Where on earth did you presume that I am listening to someone's critic? As far as I am concerned I was the one who started the thread. And I didn't say Turbine is some bunch of idiots, that is all YOUR interpretation, just like you interpretated many of my speechs wrongly.
They CAN do mistakes YES. Most of the classes's trait trees would be GREATLY different if it wasn't for THE PLAYERS's feedback back on HD beta. They listen. They do not test the game as much, that's why they NEED our feedback, our time to test things. Unfortunely blue line is so bad that most of the our feedbacks tend to focus on red and yellow line. They KNEW that Beornings could change a lot after they released them, because they released them earlier than everyone was thinking and they knew that it was because they wanted feedback from the other players besides the beta testers. But, hey, I just think you're naive. And this is my last post replying to you.

Edit: Good tanks know how to kite? Did I say anything about kiting? LOL
I get the impression you might be resentful of someone and are trying to tell me what you didn't get to tell him.
And you can't say +40% parry+evade, friend, that gives the impression that their chance to avoid an attack is 40%, which doesn't work like that.

1., You already said in this thread that force taunts only last for a few seconds and then the dps get the aggro back. You have no idea of the threat catch-up mechanism or the way taunts work.

2., block+parry+evade - yes, it DOES work like that! Say your block is 20%, parry 20%, evade 20%. When you get attacked, a number is rolled. If it is 1-20, the attack is blocked, 21-40 it is parried, 41-60 it is evaded, 61-100 you get hit.

3., I didnt say you must know how to kite, I said you must know to kite. What this means is tanking is not just about standing in one place. If your defences don't quite cut it or the healer is not very good, you kite. Like in Maze challenge.

Do you even know anything at all about tanking? You are right. I think it's best you don't talk to me.

[DiogoVP]

2., block+parry+evade - yes, it does work like that! Say your block is 20%, parry 20%, evade 20%. When you get attacked, a number is rolled. If it is 1-20, the attack is blocked, 21-40 it is parried, 41-60 it is evaded, 61-100 you get hit.

looooooooool!!!!!!

Thank you for making it clear to who I am talking to. Have a good day

[Coeprandua]

looooooooool!!!!!!

Thank you for making it clear to who I am talking to. Have a good day

I suggest you read the thread below:

https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthr...vade-and-parry

And we are back to where we started. Your feedback. How could you call it feedback and how could Turbine take any of it seriously, if

1., You never tried Beorning tanking.
2., You don't know anything about tanking in general.

You are just adding to the lies that are already undermining beornings.

Again, my bottom line is the beorning is not op and it is perfectly fine this way.

[DiogoVP]

I suggest you read the thread below:

https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthr...vade-and-parry

And we are back to where we started. Your feedback. How could you call it feedback and how could Turbine take any of it seriously, if

1., You never tried Beorning tanking.
2., You don't know anything about tanking in general.

You are just adding to the lies that are already undermining beornings.

Again, my bottom line is the beorning is not op and it is perfectly fine this way.

I read the thread and what you're saying is so non sense that I can only conclude that you indeed have a lot to learn I know math buddy and I know that when you use guardian's pledge you don't become invincible. But hey, you're the guy who believes in non sense and that's why I am not going to reply to anything you say on this thread about this subject anymore. If you want to insult me, feel free.
*I* am giving MY feedback and it us up to TURBINE to decide whether it is reasonable or not. So if you do not agree, that is YOUR problem. I didn't lie ANY time! I said my opinion, I didn't use any information that wasn't true. So back off with the accusations, mr.

[Zalexia]

There is nothing I cant tank. I have played a minstrel for many years .I could not find a class I liked.
I have retired my rank 15 minstrel after 1 year 8 months played time because I absolutely love the bear.
I am usually only blue line. I hate yellow. I havent
found much use for red. I pvp. If you need to survive in the moors i feel its much more potent. Plus many debuffs and interrupts to piss off healers.
We do have an evade skill. I think really its all how you build. I am totally decked in pm , orc craft and all mits. may put in more morale .I am pretty much as good
as any other tanking class. I think you need to know your skills though. I learned when to flip into bear and when to use man form. I am one of
the first to push into creeps and annoy the healers. We have a skill that lowers our opponents defenses and makes them easier to kill. Many interrupts.
Sacrifice is more effective as you have thickened hide. If you have bleeds that your person you are sacrificing, clear your wounds with that skill i cant think of , make sure you have wrath. The skill
only lasts so long but with thickened hide you take part of the damage it is basically an in harms way/ shield wall combo. Recuperate is your friend
just read the skills learn them all lines have a purpose and you will find one you like. I find though I have little dps in blue , getting trait tree done so I can get more red to go
with the blue. I can pull any aggro from any class. I have from guards and wardens.

[Oelle]

There is nothing I cant tank. I have played a minstrel for many years .I could not find a class I liked.
I have retired my rank 15 minstrel after 1 year 8 months played time because I absolutely love the bear.
I am usually only blue line. I hate yellow. I havent
found much use for red. I pvp. If you need to survive in the moors i feel its much more potent. Plus many debuffs and interrupts to piss off healers.
We do have an evade skill. I think really its all how you build. I am totally decked in pm , orc craft and all mits. may put in more morale .I am pretty much as good
as any other tanking class. I think you need to know your skills though. I learned when to flip into bear and when to use man form. I am one of
the first to push into creeps and annoy the healers. We have a skill that lowers our opponents defenses and makes them easier to kill. Many interrupts.
Sacrifice is more effective as you have thickened hide. If you have bleeds that your person you are sacrificing, clear your wounds with that skill i cant think of , make sure you have wrath. The skill
only lasts so long but with thickened hide you take part of the damage it is basically an in harms way/ shield wall combo. Recuperate is your friend
just read the skills learn them all lines have a purpose and you will find one you like. I find though I have little dps in blue , getting trait tree done so I can get more red to go
with the blue. I can pull any aggro from any class. I have from guards and wardens.

before you necroed this thread, there was a year of time passing. some things changed.
for example: a year ago, you could not easily have 100% uptime of your +10% physical mitigation buff which you can now in blue.
yes, beornings can tank nearly everything. still, if you just compare the values of beorn and any other tank, you will see, that they are clearly worse than guard, warden and cappy. only thing beorn has much is morale. he loses both in mitigations and avoidances clearly to all those three. you might argue, that he is better with aggro than cappy... okay, granted. but thats it.

[modrig]

before you necroed this thread, there was a year of time passing. some things changed.
for example: a year ago, you could not easily have 100% uptime of your +10% physical mitigation buff which you can now in blue.
yes, beornings can tank nearly everything. still, if you just compare the values of beorn and any other tank, you will see, that they are clearly worse than guard, warden and cappy. only thing beorn has much is morale. he loses both in mitigations and avoidances clearly to all those three. you might argue, that he is better with aggro than cappy... okay, granted. but thats it.

beornings have amazing agroo skills...never i lose aggro from everything.....

[Oelle]

beornings have amazing agroo skills...never i lose aggro from everything.....

neither do wardens or guardians...