Red line -> lack of dps or AoE skills - see why

[DiogoVP]

Hey, so ever since I've started playing the beorning, I've been wondering... Beorning is supposed to be a wild class, just like champion, so why is it mainly single target melee? And, since it is melee, why does it not have an increased dps to compensate it? You have hunters that are ranged and have a MUCH better dps. Besides that, you spend more time building wrath on a beorning than you spend getting Focus on a hunter, Fervour on a champ or Attunement on a RK, so why doesn't the beorning have a much increased dps on bear form to compensate the longer period we have to spend on human form?

[modrig]

Hey, so ever since I've started playing the beorning, I've been wondering... Beorning is supposed to be a wild class, just like champion, so why is it mainly single target melee? And, since it is melee, why does it not have an increased dps to compensate it? You have hunters that are ranged and have a MUCH better dps. Besides that, you spend more time building wrath on a beorning than you spend getting Focus on a hunter, Fervour on a champ or Attunement on a RK, so why doesn't the beorning have a much increased dps on bear form to compensate the longer period we have to spend on human form?

i hear people to say beorn not have dps like champions or hunters etc etc...... bla bla bla!!!ok i have beorn level 100 full essence geared and beorn's dps its extremly high!!!and it is much better than champion's!!i hit with 30k at 100 level elite mobs!!!with this i mean beorn its pure dps!!!

and for turbine message develop i say beorn must stay at these dmg and dont change thrash tiers dmg!its unfair....we are pure single dps target...we dont need aoe at red line only essence gear with might and fix some bugs like stuns at bear form next appear man form!!!or fix animations at cc and ferocious roar we take much time to cast!!!!AND WE DONT NEED +30% at Turn The Tides!!!ty turbine and good job at beorn wrath build its very very nice system

[Lagadelphia]

i hear people to say beorn not have dps like champions or hunters etc etc...... bla bla bla!!!ok i have beorn level 100 full essence geared and beorn's dps its extremly high!!!and it is much better than champion's!!i hit with 30k at 100 level elite mobs!!!with this i mean beorn its pure dps!!!

and for turbine message develop i say beorn must stay at these dmg and dont change thrash tiers dmg!its unfair....we are pure single dps target...we dont need aoe at red line only essence gear with might and fix some bugs like stuns at bear form next appear man form!!!or fix animations at cc and ferocious roar we take much time to cast!!!!AND WE DONT NEED +30% at Turn The Tides!!!ty turbine and good job at beorn wrath build its very very nice system

Beorning DPs is not extremely high. Yes with execute you can get big hits but the DPS which means damage per second, is low. Install the plugin Combat analysis and you will see.

[modrig]

Beorning DPs is not extremely high. Yes with execute you can get big hits but the DPS which means damage per second, is low. Install the plugin Combat analysis and you will see.

at 20sec 118k morale i think its not bad!!

[modrig]

and at 18 sec 150k i think good too

[DiogoVP]

i hear people to say beorn not have dps like champions or hunters etc etc...... bla bla bla!!!ok i have beorn level 100 full essence geared and beorn's dps its extremly high!!!and it is much better than champion's!!i hit with 30k at 100 level elite mobs!!!with this i mean beorn its pure dps!!!

and for turbine message develop i say beorn must stay at these dmg and dont change thrash tiers dmg!its unfair....we are pure single dps target...we dont need aoe at red line only essence gear with might and fix some bugs like stuns at bear form next appear man form!!!or fix animations at cc and ferocious roar we take much time to cast!!!!AND WE DONT NEED +30% at Turn The Tides!!!ty turbine and good job at beorn wrath build its very very nice system

Do you have a cappy in your group when you hit like that? How much physical mastery does your beorning have?

[Nimrinoth]

It always amazes me how many people don't understand what dps means. It's as if they don't know dps stands for damage per second...

[maradakia]

You know, for the loooooongest time Captain DPS was so low compared to other classes, it was just a sad, sad scene. Anyone who did any testing over time was able to see with total clarity that Captains were hitting way below any median level. However... that didn't stop people on the forums from saying: Our DPS is fine. Stop crying. We're great. I hit for x. etc...

It always baffled me that people would shoot themselves in the foot that way. In place of giving accurate feedback comparing our class to others, and requesting balance and improvement, they would tell our developers... move along, move along. Nothing to see here. We're just fine as is.

My theory is this: some people respond to discussion like this from the standpoint of defending their person sense of pride. In general anyone who wants to can "feel" powerful in LOTRO because we don't share a scorecard displaying data on everyone in group (unless you all chose to get and use the combat analysis plugin). So each person lives in a personal imagination of feeling like they are contributing as much as anyone else. Then when a thread like this comes along and people start saying: actually... our class in below average - well, they defend their self image. They say: NO! We are powerful. We are great. We are indispensable.

But they don't realise this conversation is between us and our developers. It's not about pretending to ourselves that we are great, or hiding clarity from ourselves about our weak points, and thereby pretending other people wont notice, or will continue to think we're super strong. It's about actually doing what is necessary to make sure our class is in fact making a balanced contribution with our peers in our role.

If you're a DPS, and your central concern is not about self image, but about actually wanting to contribute strongly as a DPS, and not as a poor replacement for a real DPS class... then you would certainly want the devs to know when we're falling short > so that they can hopefully improve us and bring us up to par.

In DPS role on my Beorning, there's no reason I should be satisfied being a significant percentage weaker than a Hunter or Champion. What is the point of that? The group would just be better off bringing someone else.
When we're in healer role, being a weaker healer than even a Captain, not to mention an RK or Minstrel, is senseless.

And another *key* factor to remember when comparing our actual contribution to others in the same role is: How do the numbers stack up, not in a stationary, controlled environment with a mob that doesn't move, and doesn't die, and doesn't fight back. Even if you use a program to parse the combat log when standing toe to toe with a training dummy, the info you're getting is not reflective of our actual contribution.

Real game conditions include:
- time taken to get in range of your target
- amount of damage the target(s) will already have taken by others before you got in range
- time spent using weaker man-form skills while you build up wrath
- amount of damage the target(s) will already have taken by others while you build wrath
- amount of damage received compared to other classes, (taking differing mitigations into account, as well as the differences of being in melee vs ranged)
- time spent chasing and missing targets that tend to run around
- the additional gap in overall DPS this causes compared to ranged classes

etc...

I know when I used to play SWTOR I found a parsing program that actually had settings to calculate your damage while taking various of these actual gameplay factors into account.

You can't just compare potential damage assuming you are already at full wrath permanently, and already in range, and have no down time between targets causing you to have to build your wrath up all over again, while the Champ and Hunter and LM and RK and Minnie blow up the target before you ever got up to speed. It just isn't useful information without real gameplay conditions.

Overall, since most of the time is actually spent fighting small clusters of weak mobs, with bits of downtime running between each group... Beornings will be way behind on total DPS of a raid or instance because other classes are able to do huge AOE damage from range before we ever get there, and when we do, we're low on wrath and waste time swinging our axe, and in the meantime the mobs are mostly toasted already, and the Champ has blasted what was left of them. We get just enough time to get into bear form and maybe take a swat or two, and then we're running to try to get in range of the next group, and our little bit of wrath is falling...

The only saving grace is that we aren't afflicted with a constant group scorecard, because otherwise people wouldn't invite us. They'd be like: your bear is cute, but we can't waste a spot on weak heals, or weak damage. Sorry. So instead we run around having fun, imagining to ourselves that we're tough since every now and then we see a decent hit on something that was almost dead already.

[DiogoVP]

You know, for the loooooongest time Captain DPS was so low compared to other classes, it was just a sad, sad scene. Anyone who did any testing over time was able to see with total clarity that Captains were hitting way below any median level. However... that didn't stop people on the forums from saying: Our DPS is fine. Stop crying. We're great. I hit for x. etc...

Not to mention cappies don't need to have the best DPS because even when they are on DPS line they are still SUPPORT. And Burglars have weak dps too but they are also support and have the stealth benefit and Hide in Plain Sight. All of that could justify weaker DPS, BUUUUUT that cannot be said about the Beornings. Are they Support on Red line? I don't think so. They are a melee single target DPS that cannot be compared to many other classes's DPSs. It really does need improvement.

When we're in healer role, being a weaker healer than even a Captain, not to mention an RK or Minstrel, is senseless.

I am not sure how things are on live right now because I don't have a beorning on live, but on bullroarer the heal is GREAT. I have a captain, a RK and minstrel all on level cap and I can say that the beorning heal is a lot greater than the captain's heal and might be even better than the RK's heal! Seriously!

[modrig]

Not to mention cappies don't need to have the best DPS because even when they are on DPS line they are still SUPPORT. And Burglars have weak dps too but they are also support and have the stealth benefit and Hide in Plain Sight. All of that could justify weaker DPS, BUUUUUT that cannot be said about the Beornings. Are they Support on Red line? I don't think so. They are a melee single target DPS that cannot be compared to many other classes's DPSs. It really does need improvement.


I am not sure how things are on live right now because I don't have a beorning on live, but on bullroarer the heal is GREAT. I have a captain, a RK and minstrel all on level cap and I can say that the beorning heal is a lot greater than the captain's heal and might be even better than the RK's heal! Seriously!

agree with you diogo!!two questions at maradakia!!first do you have beorning ??and sec if you have what level???ty

[DiogoVP]

agree with you diogo!!two questions at maradakia!!first do you have beorning ??and sec if you have what level???ty

I don't have a Beorning on live, but I have one level 100 on Bullroarer, which means I know some things that is to come in the next update for the beornings. One of the things they seemed to have really improved are the heals. I am not sure how it was before but it's gonna be great after the next update. Overall, yellow line is awesome, blue is terrible and red line needs improvements on DPS and more AoE would be great as well.

[Vulcwen]

Beorning healing is more than what RKs can do, in raw output, but is less flexible due to having to juggle with wrath.. I guess that balances things.
With some good prediction of when large heals are needed, and proper use of CC/debuffs, beornings should be able to do well as main-healer. It does takes more skill than minis, and probably even RKs, but might be a good thing :P.

For red line.. If they make Expose fellow-wide, they get some support and it'd justify the lower DPS in general.

[modrig]

I don't have a Beorning on live, but I have one level 100 on Bullroarer, which means I know some things that is to come in the next update for the beornings. One of the things they seemed to have really improved are the heals. I am not sure how it was before but it's gonna be great after the next update. Overall, yellow line is awesome, blue is terrible and red line needs improvements on DPS and more AoE would be great as well.

blue line i hear from many people its terrible!!i dont play much this line but i think its challenge to tank with this line for me hehe!!yellow its amazing ,agree with you!!red i think need improves at some bugs and for sure the aoe!!but i dont test beorn at bullroarer!

[Lagadelphia]

You know, for the loooooongest time Captain DPS was so low compared to other classes, it was just a sad, sad scene. Anyone who did any testing over time was able to see with total clarity that Captains were hitting way below any median level. However... that didn't stop people on the forums from saying: Our DPS is fine. Stop crying. We're great. I hit for x. etc...

It always baffled me that people would shoot themselves in the foot that way. In place of giving accurate feedback comparing our class to others, and requesting balance and improvement, they would tell our developers... move along, move along. Nothing to see here. We're just fine as is.

My theory is this: some people respond to discussion like this from the standpoint of defending their person sense of pride. In general anyone who wants to can "feel" powerful in LOTRO because we don't share a scorecard displaying data on everyone in group (unless you all chose to get and use the combat analysis plugin). So each person lives in a personal imagination of feeling like they are contributing as much as anyone else. Then when a thread like this comes along and people start saying: actually... our class in below average - well, they defend their self image. They say: NO! We are powerful. We are great. We are indispensable.

But they don't realise this conversation is between us and our developers. It's not about pretending to ourselves that we are great, or hiding clarity from ourselves about our weak points, and thereby pretending other people wont notice, or will continue to think we're super strong. It's about actually doing what is necessary to make sure our class is in fact making a balanced contribution with our peers in our role.

If you're a DPS, and your central concern is not about self image, but about actually wanting to contribute strongly as a DPS, and not as a poor replacement for a real DPS class... then you would certainly want the devs to know when we're falling short > so that they can hopefully improve us and bring us up to par.

In DPS role on my Beorning, there's no reason I should be satisfied being a significant percentage weaker than a Hunter or Champion. What is the point of that? The group would just be better off bringing someone else.
When we're in healer role, being a weaker healer than even a Captain, not to mention an RK or Minstrel, is senseless.

And another *key* factor to remember when comparing our actual contribution to others in the same role is: How do the numbers stack up, not in a stationary, controlled environment with a mob that doesn't move, and doesn't die, and doesn't fight back. Even if you use a program to parse the combat log when standing toe to toe with a training dummy, the info you're getting is not reflective of our actual contribution.

Real game conditions include:
- time taken to get in range of your target
- amount of damage the target(s) will already have taken by others before you got in range
- time spent using weaker man-form skills while you build up wrath
- amount of damage the target(s) will already have taken by others while you build wrath
- amount of damage received compared to other classes, (taking differing mitigations into account, as well as the differences of being in melee vs ranged)
- time spent chasing and missing targets that tend to run around
- the additional gap in overall DPS this causes compared to ranged classes

etc...

I know when I used to play SWTOR I found a parsing program that actually had settings to calculate your damage while taking various of these actual gameplay factors into account.

You can't just compare potential damage assuming you are already at full wrath permanently, and already in range, and have no down time between targets causing you to have to build your wrath up all over again, while the Champ and Hunter and LM and RK and Minnie blow up the target before you ever got up to speed. It just isn't useful information without real gameplay conditions.

Overall, since most of the time is actually spent fighting small clusters of weak mobs, with bits of downtime running between each group... Beornings will be way behind on total DPS of a raid or instance because other classes are able to do huge AOE damage from range before we ever get there, and when we do, we're low on wrath and waste time swinging our axe, and in the meantime the mobs are mostly toasted already, and the Champ has blasted what was left of them. We get just enough time to get into bear form and maybe take a swat or two, and then we're running to try to get in range of the next group, and our little bit of wrath is falling...

The only saving grace is that we aren't afflicted with a constant group scorecard, because otherwise people wouldn't invite us. They'd be like: your bear is cute, but we can't waste a spot on weak heals, or weak damage. Sorry. So instead we run around having fun, imagining to ourselves that we're tough since every now and then we see a decent hit on something that was almost dead already.

Such an awesome post. Especially the last bit about a decent hit when something is almost dead already. That is where you have to look into the numbers parsed. If you hit with execute for 35k and the mob only had 5k left, it will skew your parse. Your parse will be much higher than your actual "useable" dps as that extra 30k is wasted.

[TKH]

I'm all for red-line being AoE. Unlike Champion and Hunter who can run around with full Fervour/Focus bar right of the bat, Beorning have to build up Wrath a lot more slowly. If I have to spend time getting my Wrath up by killing a few mobs first, then I want to become an AoE bear that slaughter enemies left and right. Why 1vs1 like a honourable Man when you can just savagely bear-slap many foes at once?

I really think that all of bear-form attacking skills should be changed into AoE ones that hit up 3-5 target at once.

[Erlo]

I might name stuff wrong as i dont know the name of all skills by heart. but this is my experience of the Beo.

First i run with a pvp essence setup. 6 essence pieces with capped orc and tactical mit. 10.4k Crit defence and 15.800ish crit rating.

This leaves me with 49.9k physical mastery. I purly use supreme might to boost my dps.

Im using the very same build for pve as im yet to grind a pve dps set. But from all the pve i have done so far i dont really see where the dps problem is. I devcrit Execute for 36k+. On epic foes i parse 5-6k depending abit on luck on crits. But i 9/10 times pull aggro from absolutely everything hitting the foes. Be it 74k pm champs or hunters or even warden. ( sure they might not be the top notch but they are above average players).

building wrath isnt really a problem, Pop Call to wind, do a biting edge in the air, hit composure ( specc the wrath building from blue line) and i will in no time be up to 25 wrath, i hit bees from range and start with slam, biting edge and one slash. im up to 70+ wrath. hit bearform, boom 2 quick thrash and if i got a bonus execute i hit that one and the last thrash. someone can calculate exact how much i spent now, but i then hit sprint and get that small bonus and an other round of thrash and execute.

Then pop your (racial heal, 100 wrath) and start spending! The amount of damage you do is insane! Imo best burst in the game. with this rotation you last over a minute and im sure that with a maxed dps specc you will do 7-8k on an epic foe.

Sure there might be other factors helping the dps in Pelagir 6 man BB. But this is still just in comparing to other classes in the same instance!!

So No we are not a low dps class at all!

[Gladnagl]

I'm all for red-line being AoE. Unlike Champion and Hunter who can run around with full Fervour/Focus bar right of the bat, Beorning have to build up Wrath a lot more slowly. If I have to spend time getting my Wrath up by killing a few mobs first, then I want to become an AoE bear that slaughter enemies left and right. Why 1vs1 like a honourable Man when you can just savagely bear-slap many foes at once?

I really think that all of bear-form attacking skills should be changed into AoE ones that hit up 3-5 target at once.

If this were implemented, I could hear the open weeping by the Yellow Champions. SHING-SHING gets upstaged by bearclaws SWING-SWING.

[Lagadelphia]

I might name stuff wrong as i dont know the name of all skills by heart. but this is my experience of the Beo.

First i run with a pvp essence setup. 6 essence pieces with capped orc and tactical mit. 10.4k Crit defence and 15.800ish crit rating.

This leaves me with 49.9k physical mastery. I purly use supreme might to boost my dps.

Im using the very same build for pve as im yet to grind a pve dps set. But from all the pve i have done so far i dont really see where the dps problem is. I devcrit Execute for 36k+. On epic foes i parse 5-6k depending abit on luck on crits. But i 9/10 times pull aggro from absolutely everything hitting the foes. Be it 74k pm champs or hunters or even warden. ( sure they might not be the top notch but they are above average players).

building wrath isnt really a problem, Pop Call to wind, do a biting edge in the air, hit composure ( specc the wrath building from blue line) and i will in no time be up to 25 wrath, i hit bees from range and start with slam, biting edge and one slash. im up to 70+ wrath. hit bearform, boom 2 quick thrash and if i got a bonus execute i hit that one and the last thrash. someone can calculate exact how much i spent now, but i then hit sprint and get that small bonus and an other round of thrash and execute.

Then pop your (racial heal, 100 wrath) and start spending! The amount of damage you do is insane! Imo best burst in the game. with this rotation you last over a minute and im sure that with a maxed dps specc you will do 7-8k on an epic foe.

Sure there might be other factors helping the dps in Pelagir 6 man BB. But this is still just in comparing to other classes in the same instance!!

So No we are not a low dps class at all!

I do between 6-9k on my RK without buffs in PVE depending on crits with high burst out of the gate. It goes up from there with cappy buffs, othies, and rendering bark. Yes beornings can do decent dps in certain circumstances but not at the levels of other classes. Beorning ceiling is about where the bottem end is for RK's in equal builds. So doing 7 or 8k on epic foes with all the buffs is still lower than what RK's, wardens, hunters can do with the same buffs. Also champ single target DPS isn't that hot. They shine at AOE.

[DiogoVP]

I might name stuff wrong as i dont know the name of all skills by heart. but this is my experience of the Beo.

First i run with a pvp essence setup. 6 essence pieces with capped orc and tactical mit. 10.4k Crit defence and 15.800ish crit rating.

This leaves me with 49.9k physical mastery. I purly use supreme might to boost my dps.

Im using the very same build for pve as im yet to grind a pve dps set. But from all the pve i have done so far i dont really see where the dps problem is. I devcrit Execute for 36k+. On epic foes i parse 5-6k depending abit on luck on crits. But i 9/10 times pull aggro from absolutely everything hitting the foes. Be it 74k pm champs or hunters or even warden. ( sure they might not be the top notch but they are above average players).

building wrath isnt really a problem, Pop Call to wind, do a biting edge in the air, hit composure ( specc the wrath building from blue line) and i will in no time be up to 25 wrath, i hit bees from range and start with slam, biting edge and one slash. im up to 70+ wrath. hit bearform, boom 2 quick thrash and if i got a bonus execute i hit that one and the last thrash. someone can calculate exact how much i spent now, but i then hit sprint and get that small bonus and an other round of thrash and execute.

Then pop your (racial heal, 100 wrath) and start spending! The amount of damage you do is insane! Imo best burst in the game. with this rotation you last over a minute and im sure that with a maxed dps specc you will do 7-8k on an epic foe.

Sure there might be other factors helping the dps in Pelagir 6 man BB. But this is still just in comparing to other classes in the same instance!!

So No we are not a low dps class at all!

No one said their dps is low. Just lower compared to other DPS classes. And having one big hit and other smaller hits doesn't mean your dps is high. DPS means damage per second. As one of the people who posted here said, there are many things that can affect your overall dps. You also gotta ask yourself what other roles does red line beornings have besides DPS. Some classes that don't have the biggest DPS like LM, Burglar and Cappy are all support even when on DPS line or they have some kind of their own perks like stealth for burgs, pets for LMs and Cappies, etc. As far as I remember, beornings on red line are purely DPS and still their DPS are not among the greatest DPS of the game. Not to mention their are melee and moving is part of the fight when mobs are moving and that also affects their dps.

[Nupfkuchen]

I like that the Beorning is more of a single target class. Right now 15.2 will give T3 thrash an aoe which might help (the -25% damage might not). I think the problem is the luck you need for executes. If you get a lot of free ones you will have high dps and kill stuff fast. If you don't you have low dps and a fight can drag on. Also the long cool down on relentless really hurts the aoe. But overall I think that the Beorning lacks the consistent damage of a hunter or rk.

[Aedfrith]

I think the problem is the luck you need for executes.

Welcome to LOTRO post-HD, where procs on skills and random numbers are the order of the day. Doesn't matter how well you know your class and skills, at the end of the day success or failure is down to whether you get a skill proc or not.

Or LOTTERO as I call it.

[EdalorTrailtamper]

People are seriously confused about how to play a Beorning it seems. Yes the class is very diceroll with procs, but the procs are up so damn often currently, I have to wait for execute to come off CD.

The build in BR right now will reduce our damage a bit, and no longer proc executes on auto attacks, but still, people are seriously confused about how to play their Beornings.

Beornings put out insane dps single target. Not only that, but if you have 74 trait points, you can go full red with 4% composure and recuperate in the blue line. It's the most OP #### ever. Soloing Glinghant challenge and OE challenge while DPS trait-ed. :\

I just updated the latest Bullroarer build and I'm still holding >>>>>>>>>>>>>>9k DPS EASY with 11k spikes on a galtrev dummy over 2 minute duration with no buffs. <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

On the live server (BW) right now I'm holding sustained >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>11k easy with spikes to 13k on a galtrev dummy over 2 minute duration with no buffs <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

So as of this build, I've lost a solid 2k dps but still higher single target DPS than anything except a good warden.

I think you guys need to work on how you build and expend your wrath. The idea of the beorning isn't to build it all the way up, and then expend it all the way down. The idea is to build it all the way up, enter bear, go buck for a few secs, swap back, get wrath back up to full, go buck for a few more secs. The downtime from 0-40 wrath is where you lose all your damage.

I can't tell you the last time I allowed my wrath to go below 40. We get crit chance based on wrath level. DUHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH.

lol.

[maradakia]

Simply stating that you hit for huge single target damage against a training dummy does not give an idea of what others hit for single target, and does not account for the amount of damage contributed overall by those who do more AoE, or those who engage sooner from range, and those who waste less time chasing targets that move around during combat, or those who are able to use their heavy hits while we are building up to them, or damage we lose while we miss targets that get out of our little frontal attack zone, or damage counted by our log that actually didn't occur because the mobs was nearly dead when we got that huge execute, and how all of that stacks up over the course of a full instance or raid.

a) You need a large sample size of tests to account for fluctuations
b) You need your tests to be shared as actual recorded data, and not as anecdotes
c) In order to reflect our DPS compared to that of the other classes in actual gameplay circumstances, the data shared needs to be from actual gameplay, not from standing stationary, with a stationary single target.

- real gameplay is largely comprised of many small groups of weak mobs, with gaps of running between each group, and the rare boss.
- when approaching small groups of normal weak mobs, ranged classes will have begun damage before we arrive.
- depending on the size of the gap between groups of mobs, even when we get in range we will need to spend time doing weak damage while we build wrath, while the ranged classes continue doing full damage, and other melee classes are quicker to get their large hits in, or able to already hit for more damage even as they build up (how much damage does a Champion with low fervor do against a group of 5 mobs compared to a Beornings in man form with low wrath).
- while building wrath, and once ready for bear form and big hits, we are primarily doing single target while other's are hitting a lot of AoE. Those AoEs can comprise a huge amount of total damage combined.
- while Beorning damage goes tier 1, tier 2, tier 3, and then drops back down to tier 1, other classes go tier 1, tier 2, tier 3, and remain at tier 3.
- our logs record the size of our hits, even when the mob didn't have that much morale.

I.e.: The group of 4 orcs that began at 15k morale, are at 10k when we get in range. This drops to 5k very quickly while we only get in a couple small hits building wrath, and we hit one of them for 14k when it had 2k left, the others having been finished off by our fellows.

Counting the target's morale removed instead of our hits:
20k morale was taken off the group of targets by our fellows before we engaged.
Out of the next 20k morale we took off 3k morale.
In the final 20k, we contributed 2k (although the combat log would say 14k because it's not calculating target morale, but our hits).
In total - out of 60k morale on the targets, our contribution was taking off 5k, which is a significant amount less that our fellows, and as far as balance goes, is notably underpowered.

There are lots of factors that need to be taken into consideration, and basically, if you really wanted real data of how our total DPS stacks up to other classes, you'd need:
- combat logs that record health removed from mobs, and not damage (falsely) recorded as done by our character
- as much balance as possible in the gear/traits/expertise of each participant in the tests
- to record data from a good number of entire instances
- to record data from a good number of raids
= what % of total target health within an entire instance /raid was removed by each class

Then you could say: with these specific classes in the tests, and these controls on the experiment, and data recording actual health removed (not misleading recordings of how much people hit for), in these actual gameplay circumstances, this is how much the Beorning in the group contributed compared to the other classes in running this instance, or this raid. Then you'd have useful data about how much damage our class contributes compared to other classes - not by saying I can hit for this much in a 2 min test against a stationary training dummy.

[EdalorTrailtamper]

Simply stating that you hit for huge single target damage against a training dummy does not give an idea of what others hit for single target, and does not account for the amount of damage contributed overall by those who do more AoE, or those who engage sooner from range, and those who waste less time chasing targets that move around during combat, or those who are able to use their heavy hits while we are building up to them, or damage we lose while we miss targets that get out of our little frontal attack zone, or damage counted by our log that actually didn't occur because the mobs was nearly dead when we got that huge execute, and how all of that stacks up over the course of a full instance or raid.

a) You need a large sample size of tests to account for fluctuations
b) You need your tests to be shared as actual recorded data, and not as anecdotes
c) In order to reflect our DPS compared to that of the other classes in actual gameplay circumstances, the data shared needs to be from actual gameplay, not from standing stationary, with a stationary single target.

- real gameplay is largely comprised of many small groups of weak mobs, with gaps of running between each group, and the rare boss.
- when approaching small groups of normal weak mobs, ranged classes will have begun damage before we arrive.
- depending on the size of the gap between groups of mobs, even when we get in range we will need to spend time doing weak damage while we build wrath, while the ranged classes continue doing full damage, and other melee classes are quicker to get their large hits in, or able to already hit for more damage even as they build up (how much damage does a Champion with low fervor do against a group of 5 mobs compared to a Beornings in man form with low wrath).
- while building wrath, and once ready for bear form and big hits, we are primarily doing single target while other's are hitting a lot of AoE. Those AoEs can comprise a huge amount of total damage combined.
- while Beorning damage goes tier 1, tier 2, tier 3, and then drops back down to tier 1, other classes go tier 1, tier 2, tier 3, and remain at tier 3.
- our logs record the size of our hits, even when the mob didn't have that much morale.

I.e.: The group of 4 orcs that began at 15k morale, are at 10k when we get in range. This drops to 5k very quickly while we only get in a couple small hits building wrath, and we hit one of them for 14k when it had 2k left, the others having been finished off by our fellows.

Counting the target's morale removed instead of our hits:
20k morale was taken off the group of targets by our fellows before we engaged.
Out of the next 20k morale we took off 3k morale.
In the final 20k, we contributed 2k (although the combat log would say 14k because it's not calculating target morale, but our hits).
In total - out of 60k morale on the targets, our contribution was taking off 5k, which is a significant amount less that our fellows, and as far as balance goes, is notably underpowered.

There are lots of factors that need to be taken into consideration, and basically, if you really wanted real data of how our total DPS stacks up to other classes, you'd need:
- combat logs that record health removed from mobs, and not damage (falsely) recorded as done by our character
- as much balance as possible in the gear/traits/expertise of each participant in the tests
- to record data from a good number of entire instances
- to record data from a good number of raids
= what % of total target health within an entire instance /raid was removed by each class

Then you could say: with these specific classes in the tests, and these controls on the experiment, and data recording actual health removed (not misleading recordings of how much people hit for), in these actual gameplay circumstances, this is how much the Beorning in the group contributed compared to the other classes in running this instance, or this raid. Then you'd have useful data about how much damage our class contributes compared to other classes - not by saying I can hit for this much in a 2 min test against a stationary training dummy.

I read all this the first time you posted it. Yea, yea, yeah. I get what you're saying. It doesn't change the fact that this game should be renamed to Lord Of the Beornings and Wardens Online, you have no idea what you're talking about. Beorning is SO OP lol. You clearly don't play a beorning, or don't play it well. That's fine, it's a new class. It will take time before people realize what it's meant for, how to build it, and how to play it.

I have a feeling you're not properly building/expending wrath for one.

you seem to think that bears take some excessive amount of time to get in range of a target, and that we have to build up wrath every time we enter combat.

I don't know what beorning's you're playing with, but my Wrath is at 100 before I start an instance. I always keep my wrath builder rotation going out of combat keeping my wrath at 100 all times while I run around questing/instancing/pvping.

In an instance like sambrog, I enter in the instance with full wrath. I'm first down the steps cause I'm faster in bear form, first to activate the fight, target a wight, sprint, knock it down and demolish it usually before the rest of the people get down the stairs. From that first mob, I leave bear form before it dies, when it has about 6k health left, fire off a quick -target mit debuff wrath builder, and a slam wrath builder, those two attacks will kill the target. At this point I'm already running toward the next target, 2 seconds left on my bear form CD, throw off a biting edge, and I'm back to full wrath, enter bear form right as I reach the second mob. Attack this mob down to about 6k, leave bear form, kill it with a wrath builder, move on. Get it? The idea is to keep wrath high, and leave bear form between certain targets in an effort to rebuild wrath. Doing this, I can maintain bear form for most of my attacks in an instance. I rarely expend my wrath below 40.

As far as the situations where you have a bunch of trash mobs, and people AOE them down quickly, with full wrath, my beornings crit chance is 45% in those trashy instances with lots of low mobs, it's a waste of time to go into bear form, with 45% crit chance you just run around spamming biting edge and wrath builders. Beorning can hold 4.5k single target in man form with full wrath. talking AOE, that number can go up. Keep your wrath at 100.

As for targets being half dead by the time you get there, it's usually the other way around for me, I usually have them half dead. you realize that your ranged skills can all trigger your execute buff? I've usually got it up before I even get to a mob. Half the time, execute is the first melee skill I use in combat, and it's a free one, not an expended wrath execute.

[maradakia]

That seemed rather dismissive and condescending.

I am simply saying: do proper testing in actual game play circumstances, and over time, and based on actual damage contributed, not false figures.

I am not telling you what that real data will prove. For all I know it will show that Beornings are fine, or OP. But simply judging based on "feel" or based on seeing some big numbers in a 2 min test against a training dummy is not reflective of our balance. It's just not.

In having played other MMOs that include a scorecard that pops up at the end of a raid or instance showing every person's damage, power use, healing, etc..., like in SWTOR or DCUO (which I think is overall an awful idea, and makes people tend to act like jerks to each other a lot), it becomes crystal clear that the elements I listed above make all the difference in the world. You can easily feel super powerful and OP while you level up solo... until you first get into a raid and that scorecard pops up, and then you see how the balance really is. All the little aspects of what can contribute to higher DPS overall DO prove to make a difference, and those bits add up quickly to become a huge margin between classes at the end of a raid. If you have to waste a lot of time getting in range, it makes a difference. This is 100% clear. If you have to waste time setting up DoTs and can't let rip with big hits immediately, it makes a massive difference cumulatively over a raid. If you have poor mobility and waste time chasing things, it makes a huge difference. In those other games these elements are totally obvious because everyone is permanently on a scorecard, whether you like it or not, and very aware of it, because if you begin to trail behind by much from the DPS leader, you will often get kicked out.

Asserting that you think Beornings are the most powerful DPS, and dismissing the majority of people's view that this is quite untrue, and saying stuff like - then you're doing it wrong.... it's just not helpful, I don't think.

If our focus isn't on self congratulations, and is instead on genuinely trying to double check our impressions against well thought out testing and hard data... then perhaps we could make sure our class is properly balanced. If we just sit here saying - we're the best, and you should nerf us.. what good comes of that in terms of the class, or game balance?

Why not simply sit down and do some careful testing. Who knows - maybe the data would support your initial assertions. But if not, you don't lose anything! You gain, because then we can ask our developers to help bring the class into balance. If the data proved your assertions to be wrong though, and you already convinced our devs that we're OP, and should be nerfed, then you've done a disservice to yourself, and to others.

I don't know what accurate and thorough testing in real game contexts would prove... I'm just saying - do the tests. Don't just say - I hit like a truck, therefore you guys are playing wrong.

Sitting there with a training dummy, on a class that is built for single target damage is obviously going to skew in our favor. Ignoring factors such as burst, downtime, movement, target swapping or AoE, is not going to tell you anything real about how our damage compares to others while actually playing the game.