U 16.1 -- Reactive Parry Situation?

[Crissaegrim]

Reactive Parry Damage should now properly apply to the Guardians Parry response skills

To me, this suggests that after parrying, we would gain a percentile increase to our Retaliations, Thrust, Overwhelm and To The King?

Thanks in advance.

[Kaern48]

Just checked, and the legacy does increase the damage of both Retaliations, Thrust, Overwhelm and To The King. Seems extremely overpowered and broken.

[commdorvis]

"Reactive Parry Damage" sounded like it applied to the effect called "Reactive Parry" in Red-line. If it's supposed to apply to Reactive Parry skills, it should say "Reactive Parry Skills Damage". Oh well. I haven't adopted the legacy yet (still downloading updates), but if considering whether it's OP or not, remember that the majority of Guardian DPS comes from refreshing bleeds. The skills themselves don't do much damage. It'd just be a small bonus.

[Zonflux]

Just checked, and the legacy does increase the damage of both Retaliations, Thrust, Overwhelm and To The King. Seems extremely overpowered and broken.

Still downloading but my curiosity and confusement is peaked. I tested this legacy in Update 16 Beta 1 and it increased the Reactive Parry Damage that you get from the Red Tree as per the description. Did they ninja change what this legacy does in one of the Betas or possibly even the Update?

I'm not sure how balanced, good or overpowered this legacy may be right now but I can tell you that before when I tested it the legacy was absolute garbage, no one would've even considered slotting it. Now at least it will get used.

[Zonflux]

I just personally tested out the Reactive Parry Damage legacy and it DOES NOT increase your parry response skill damage by x%, rather it does exactly as it is supposed to do and increases the Reactive Parry Damage (ie; reflective damage) that you do whenever you parry by x%.

I imbued a 3rd Age and while the legacy was only at +8% after parrying an attack none of my parry response skills increased in their damage, rather only my reflective damage increased from 232 to 250, which works out to be 8%. 232 * 1.08 = 250.

The legacy is still garbage.

Could you please explain how you are doing your tests, maybe I am doing something different?

I auto-attack a training dummy once and then turn on auto-attack. Once I get a Parry I tool-tip over my parry skills, I also monitor CombatAnalysis which shows Reactive Parry Damage doing 250 damage instead of 232.

[commdorvis]

I have 700 more PM with the second belt, but Retaliation obviously receives a bigger boost than that can account for, so at least in the tooltips Reactive Parry Damage affects Parry response skills.
This legacy is fine, if it's not going to change again, but I do wonder if it affects the Bleed Cashout damage, since that's a separate damage effect from Overwhelm but still a part of the skill.

[Kaern48]

I just personally tested out the Reactive Parry Damage legacy and it DOES NOT increase your parry response skill damage by x%, rather it does exactly as it is supposed to do and increases the Reactive Parry Damage (ie; reflective damage) that you do whenever you parry by x%.

I imbued a 3rd Age and while the legacy was only at +8% after parrying an attack none of my parry response skills increased in their damage, rather only my reflective damage increased from 232 to 250, which works out to be 8%. 232 * 1.08 = 250.

The legacy is still garbage.

Could you please explain how you are doing your tests, maybe I am doing something different?

I auto-attack a training dummy once and then turn on auto-attack. Once I get a Parry I tool-tip over my parry skills, I also monitor CombatAnalysis which shows Reactive Parry Damage doing 250 damage instead of 232.

I found imbued a random 3rd age belt that with the legacy, came out to +4% reactive damage at rank one. Compared the tool tip damages of retaliation/overwhelm/thrust/ttk with and without the belt equipped. The damages were almost exactly 4% higher with the imbued belt equipped. There were also slightly higher than when my usual dps belt was equipped.

[Zonflux]

I have 700 more PM with the second belt, but Retaliation obviously receives a bigger boost than that can account for, so at least in the tooltips Reactive Parry Damage affects Parry response skills.
This legacy is fine, if it's not going to change again, but I do wonder if it affects the Bleed Cashout damage, since that's a separate damage effect from Overwhelm but still a part of the skill.

I found imbued a random 3rd age belt that with the legacy, came out to +4% reactive damage at rank one. Compared the tool tip damages of retaliation/overwhelm/thrust/ttk with and without the belt equipped. The damages were almost exactly 4% higher with the imbued belt equipped. There were also slightly higher than when my usual dps belt was equipped.

Ah, I believe I know what the difference is now...

1. I would equip the Belt with Reactive Parry Damage on it.
2. Write down the min-max damage of Thrust
3. Enter combat and wait for a Parry response.
4. Write down the min-max damage of Thrust

In this scenario the min-max is the same because I was under the impression that the min-max damage buff does not occur until only after you receive a Parry response.

If I understand correctly this works instead as a passive bonus to your parry skills? Is that correct? If this is the case then I am slotting this legacy.

[commdorvis]

Ah, I believe I know what the difference is now...

1. I would equip the Belt with Reactive Parry Damage on it.
2. Write down the min-max damage of Thrust
3. Enter combat and wait for a Parry response.
4. Write down the min-max damage of Thrust

In this scenario the min-max is the same because I was under the impression that the min-max damage buff does not occur until only after you receive a Parry response.

If I understand correctly this works instead as a passive bonus to your parry skills? Is that correct? If this is the case then I am slotting this legacy.

Looking at the tooltips, it applies to all skills under 'Parry and Retaliate'. Retaliation, Whirling Retaliation, Overwhelm (upfront damage, don't know about the cashout), To the King, Hammer Down (I don't know why this is in the Parry and Retaliate group but it is), Thrust, and Redirect. It works like any other legacy which adds to the damage of a skill (Brutal Assault, TTK, Sting) - it just applies to a category of skills. So yeah, I think this one is good.

[Oelle]

If its really WAI like that, that it increases reactive parry skills damage and not only, like said in its tooltip the damage of active parry...
then its a really nice legacy. is it WAI? will its description ingame then change, too? because the description is only about active parry and not REactive parry skills.

[commdorvis]

If its really WAI like that, that it increases reactive parry skills damage and not only, like said in its tooltip the damage of active parry...
then its a really nice legacy. is it WAI? will its description ingame then change, too? because the description is only about active parry and not REactive parry skills.

Yeah. Hate to put a useful legacy on my LIs, then have it turn into a not useful one in the next update, especially when the Imbuement process is permanent. Really tricky, Turbine.

[Crissaegrim]

Thank you so much for running the numbers, Commdorvis.

I think we're all experiencing a feeling of "This is too good to be true". However, the results we're seeing as EXACTLY as indicated by the patch note's wording: A flat percentile increase on any Parry Response skill.

I'm willing to take the ball and run with it.

[Zonflux]

Currently got my [Reactive Parry Damage] up to 31/31 (+28%) so all I need now are empowerment scrolls. I am already seeing my parry skills do an extra 1000 damage. This is definitely a worthwhile legacy to invest in.

[Theozor]

Sounds like it might actually be worthwhile to imbue my guardian's belt if this is truly WAI. I'm still not imbuing his weapon though, not with the AOE targets nerf.

[q945]

Sounds like it might actually be worthwhile to imbue my guardian's belt if this is truly WAI. I'm still not imbuing his weapon though, not with the AOE targets nerf.

Yup, I'm in the same mind here.

[commdorvis]

Sounds like it might actually be worthwhile to imbue my guardian's belt if this is truly WAI. I'm still not imbuing his weapon though, not with the AOE targets nerf.

At this point, I'd certainly imbue a DPS belt. Tanking belts lose too many good legacies in the process of Imbuement.

[Arathaert]

I do have an imbued dps belt (staunchly refusing to imbue my tanking stuff) and swapped for this legacy today and can confirm that it does indeed mean a flat increase in damage. It's almost a "too-good-to-be-true" situation ... hopefully it doesn't change in the future. If it does, I do hope they'd have the decency to refund a legacy replacement scroll if requested. :P

But as-is, this definitely is a must-have dps legacy.

[Theozor]

I went ahead and imbued the belt last night. So far, so good. Whirling retaliation in particular seems to be far more effective than it used to be. I'm still not touching my weapon though, because the extra AOE targets are worth the lower caps on the other legacies... so far...

[Crissaegrim]

So we're agreed that this is a new "must have", and that it should probably be named "Parry Response Damage" instead, to limit confusion.

[TKH]

So we're agreed that this is a new "must have", and that it should probably be named "Parry Response Damage" instead, to limit confusion.

Parry Response Skill Damage would be less confusing.

[commdorvis]

So we're agreed that this is a new "must have", and that it should probably be named "Parry Response Damage" instead, to limit confusion.

It applies to skills under 'Parry And Retaliate', which are all Parry response skills except Hammer Down. It'd be most accurate to call it 'Parry and Retaliate Skill Damage', but if they went with 'Parry Response Skill Damage' that would be okay. Parry Response Damage is possibly ambigiuous because of what thatabguy thought.

For DPS and perhaps for tanking too, it is very useful if not a must-have. That said, I'm half expecting Turbine to nerf it, so I will remain cautious.

[Rhunar]

Dear all,

unfortunately in the German client translation, the legacy has exactly the same name as the passive skill 'Reactive Parry" in the "Keen Blade" trait set, which implies it only functions as a damage bonus for that passive skill. It might be difficult to analyze the situation with combat analysis, since one would have to compare exactly the same situations including attack speed, mob level, finesse, stat and bonus contributions, the statistical deviations etc.
Clarification might only come from the developers. If that legacy is really meant to enhance all damage from skills activated by a successfull parry, it's named ambiguously, even worse in translation.

Rhunar

[Vulcwen]

Dear all,

unfortunately in the German client translation, the legacy has exactly the same name as the passive skill 'Reactive Parry" in the "Keen Blade" trait set, which implies it only functions as a damage bonus for that passive skill. It might be difficult to analyze the situation with combat analysis, since one would have to compare exactly the same situations including attack speed, mob level, finesse, stat and bonus contributions, the statistical deviations etc.
Clarification might only come from the developers. If that legacy is really meant to enhance all damage from skills activated by a successfull parry, it's named ambiguously, even worse in translation.

Rhunar

The quote in the OP was straight from the patch notes of U16.1, this is the clarification from developers already. It should work on any parry response skill.
And the name is ambiguous in the english version already, so I can't imagine it being worse in german :P.

[Gabli]

Dear all,

unfortunately in the German client translation, the legacy has exactly the same name as the passive skill 'Reactive Parry" in the "Keen Blade" trait set, which implies it only functions as a damage bonus for that passive skill. It might be difficult to analyze the situation with combat analysis, since one would have to compare exactly the same situations including attack speed, mob level, finesse, stat and bonus contributions, the statistical deviations etc.
Clarification might only come from the developers. If that legacy is really meant to enhance all damage from skills activated by a successfull parry, it's named ambiguously, even worse in translation.

Rhunar

Keen Blade's "Reactive Parry" has nothing to do with attack speed, mob level, finesse or whatnot. It just means that when you parry an attack you damage the attacker, and that would be pretty easy to check with Combat Analysis.
The current effect of the legacy is extremely simple to check. Just look at the damage ranges (via tooltip) of various skills go up as you spend points in the legacy. Since it was stated in the last patch-note that the legacy would increase the damage of said skills it can only be assumed that it is only working as intended, while indeed very poorly worded.

[Rhunar]

Thank you all for the clarification. In fact, in the German localization the wording IS even worse. The legacy is (still) named "Schaden durch Aktives Parieren" (English translation would be: "Damage from (Re)Active Parry"). The red tree trait "Reactive Parry" carries exactly the same name in the German version (lotro-wiki.com/index.php/Reactive_Parry). Very misleading despite the U 16.1 information update. Considering the effect of the legacy, now it's really useful for the damage line. This demonstrates why it's always useful for me to read the English forum contributions, too.

Greetings to all fellow guardians

Rhunar