Mob finesse vs guardian BPE in Osgilliath T2s

[Lenkamir]

Hi,
I'm still relatively new to playing guard (an alt of mine). I have been enjoying the new T2s on a few toon's, though I'm still learning to tank (I'm much more familiar with red-line 2h play as I spend most time in the Ettenmoors. Anyway, to the question:

I have heard that the mobs in Osgilliath T2s have maximum finesse, and that their attacks can't be evaded etc. I therefore wonder if slotting any BPE essences is worthwhile in an ideal setup for these instances?

I have been able to trigger block/parry responses as usual (before I'd been told about the finesse situation) in these new T2s so I wonder what is going on. I realise I don't understand the interaction between opponent finesse and your BPE, so it would be great if someone could explain this. I haven't run combat analysis yet while in one of these instances or attempted any tests, so I wonder if anyone else has any useful data on this, and/or could talk things through.
Many thanks in advance!
Lenkathir/Lenkarandir/Lenkluil
PS what does this mean for resistance? I thought that resistance helps with resisting some of the negative effects of the first RC boss's unremovable dot, but now this finesse question has me pondering if that is the case (?)

[Zonflux]

I have heard that the mobs in Osgilliath T2s have maximum finesse, and that their attacks can't be evaded etc. I therefore wonder if slotting any BPE essences is worthwhile in an ideal setup for these instances?

I have heard that rumour as well and I don't understand why everyone believes it?

As I write this I am taking my stats from the LUA CombatAnalysis plugin as I attempt to solo as far as I can in RC T2 in Blue Tank mode. Note that I am intentionally running with my evasion gloves versus my physical mitigation gloves to prove my point regarding BPE.

Mob #1 (2 archers, 3 devoted)

• Physical Avoids: 78.0%
• Full Avoids: 67.8%
  
  • Blocks: 29.2%
  • Parrys: 22.3%
  • Evades: 16.3%
• Partial Avoids: 10.2%

Mob # 2(1 Executioner, 3 devoted)

• Physical Avoids: 70.8%
• Full Avoids: 60.6%
  
  • Blocks: 29.5%
  • Parrys: 20.1%
  • Evades: 11.0%
• Partial Avoids: 10.2%

Mob #3 (2 archers, 3 devoted)

• Physical Avoids: 72.7%
• Full Avoids: 62.2%
  
  • Blocks: 22.9%
  • Parrys: 22.6%
  • Evades: 10.6%
• Partial Avoids: 10.6%

Mob # 4(3 executioner, 3 archer)
* I died on this mob because of the archers.

• Physical Avoids: 51.0%
• Full Avoids: 41.7%
  
  • Blocks: 20.8%
  • Parrys: 3.1%
  • Evades: 17.7%
• Partial Avoids: 9.4%

Even without Pledge or Juggernaught I was seeing many Blocks, Parries and Evades.
If you start off a fight off with Pledge or Juggernaught watch your Physical and Full Avoids sky rocket to high numbers.

Not sure who is spreading this rumour but I don't know on what basis they are laying their claims.

[Gabli]

As far as I know neither mobs or bosses have significant Finesse. However, some do have attacks that cannot be avoided such as Lumithil's Great Slash (the attack he does after saying "A Cut !") or Risen Guard's shadow frontal cleave in the Dome (can't remember the name of this attack right now).

[Zonflux]

As far as I know neither mobs or bosses have significant Finesse. However, some do have attacks that cannot be avoided such as Lumithil's Great Slash (the attack he does after saying "A Cut !") or Risen Guard's shadow frontal cleave in the Dome (can't remember the name of this attack right now).

Now that is something that I would actually be willing to believe, but the current rumour floating around that I have heard 3 times now that there is no point is gearing up for BPE in the Osgoliath T2 instances is silly.

[Vulcwen]

I inspected some mobs/bosses on my LM.. all said they had Feeble finesse (which would mean no to minimal finesse).
But indeed, some special attacks can't be avoided, and those are specifically the most dangerous ones.

[Ollof]

I've been back playing for about a month now having previously leveled to 95 but not playing helms deep. The mechanic used to be that BPE is additive, that's still relevant? It appears that way to me anyway.

Either way i've done both 3-mans in tier 2, sunken city extensively, and I get a ton of avoidance as I usually would. There is no way that anyone struggles for BPE in these instances, unless they have majorly skimped on stats, and that I can believe. Morale essences seem to be the in-thing, some is good, but some seem to go over the top with it.

The only time that BPE becomes ineffective is when facing tactical damage and sometimes the scripted maneuvers that bosses often do. These occasions are rare and are intended to be overcome in a different way.

Also while we are talking about avoidance is anyone finding that it is incredibly difficult to cap block and parry? The diminishing returns seem very steep, i'm settling on around 28% and focusing on other stats.

[Lenkamir]

Many thanks for the responses. This makes a lot more sense than the rumour did. I knew about "the cut" (ouch) etc and was confused by being able to bpe in spite of this claim, so thanks for setting things straight.
Seems like Chinese whispers - someone getting confused between those unavoidable attacks and mobs and bosses having high finesse, which Vulcwen has helpfully tested and found to be incorrect.

[siipperi]

while we are talking about avoidance is anyone finding that it is incredibly difficult to cap block and parry? The diminishing returns seem very steep, i'm settling on around 28% and focusing on other stats.

Avoidances divide into 4 segments and last will start around 20% and it's hardest one to gain rating -> percentage return. So you are seeing worse return on % side when going over 20% which would be 15 or 16k rating, can't remember (keep in mind that traits can buff your pure %). So to put this into essence perspective, you would need a bit over 3 essences to gain one % compared to over 2,6k pure morale for example, that's why you see so many players stacking morale.

[Coeprandua]

Hi,
I'm still relatively new to playing guard (an alt of mine). I have been enjoying the new T2s on a few toon's, though I'm still learning to tank (I'm much more familiar with red-line 2h play as I spend most time in the Ettenmoors. Anyway, to the question:

I have heard that the mobs in Osgilliath T2s have maximum finesse, and that their attacks can't be evaded etc. I therefore wonder if slotting any BPE essences is worthwhile in an ideal setup for these instances?

I have been able to trigger block/parry responses as usual (before I'd been told about the finesse situation) in these new T2s so I wonder what is going on. I realise I don't understand the interaction between opponent finesse and your BPE, so it would be great if someone could explain this. I haven't run combat analysis yet while in one of these instances or attempted any tests, so I wonder if anyone else has any useful data on this, and/or could talk things through.
Many thanks in advance!
Lenkathir/Lenkarandir/Lenkluil
PS what does this mean for resistance? I thought that resistance helps with resisting some of the negative effects of the first RC boss's unremovable dot, but now this finesse question has me pondering if that is the case (?)

It's easy to see where this is coming from, imo. Max finesse = highest mob finesse in the game. T2 mobs have had highest finesse traditionally + Osgiliath supposed to be most challengeing content in-game = Osg t2 mobs have max finesse. Someone just assumes it's how it should be.

[Gandie2]

Also while we are talking about avoidance is anyone finding that it is incredibly difficult to cap block and parry? The diminishing returns seem very steep, i'm settling on around 28% and focusing on other stats.

If you are sitting at 28% block and parry you are doing very well. Was just looking for a link that would show new caps but I don't seem to have it. I have been under the impression that both block and parry are now capped at 20% that to reach 25% we need get the traits that add 5% block and the trait that adds 5% parry.

It is interesting to note that I do seem to be able to go over 25% on each. At least in combat with guardians ward. I thought the +to block and parry in that would only take us to cap not above it.

So maybe something has changed.

I just found that if I went and put on a few items of jewelry that had block I was able to go over 25% . Not buy a lot but I did not add that much block, and going over it at all means it can't be a 'hard cap'.

[Zonflux]

Before I started using essences I got much more Might from my gear overall and thus also my Block and Parry were both higher since those two stats come from Might.

[CrazyRock]

Yeah, most attacks in the Osgiliath T2s are avoidable.
The thing is, that the avoidable attacks aren't the attacks that matter.
They do significantly less damage than the unavoidable attacks.
Thats the reason why many people prefer more morale over avoidance.
Another reason is that you don't really have to increase block- and parry-rating to get the softcap (15124: 20%),
just for evading you have to use essences or other equip (as guardian, cannot speak for other classes)

Trash enemys burst the first seconds with their unavoidable attacks, then they do nearly no damage with their normal attacks until their unavoidable attacks are ready again.
Tendential bosses do more damage with their few unavoidable attacks than with their many normal attacks.

One of the most interesting examples is the last fight in the ruined city:
last time I was in it I got between 90% and 95% unavoidable damage (partly resistable)
Not mess this up with unavoidable attacks vs. avoidable attacks.
I avoided many attacks, but avoidable attacks just do very low damage, so it doesn't really matter whether I avoid them or not.


The unavoidable attacks I remember from my memory are(without engagement of completeness):

In the Sunken Labyrinth:

• The yellow eyes(5% max-morale each second over a few seconds, can be reduced by tactical mitigation, I didn't check, whether it can be resisted)
• The bites by the warriors giving their debuff
• The "special" attacks by the archers that give a disease
• The worm's debuff
• The charge by the first boss(can be outrunned, can be interrupted by a knock down, for example the hunter's trap in yellow line/maneuvers)
• The vomit by the first boss(can be interrupted by a knock down, for example the hunter's trap in yellow line/maneuvers)
• The roundhouse-kick by the last boss

In the Ruined City(didn't check here very much. Equiping a lot of physical mitgation against orc damage was more important):

• The stun-attack by the uruks(can be interrupted/outrunned)
• The power-steal by the archers
• The bleeding by the first boss(can be resisted)
• The stun-attack by the second boss
• The big area-damage by the second boss
• The cut by the last boss
• The bleeding by the last boss(can be resisted)
• The debuffs by the last boss and his adds

Dome of the stars I couldn't check enough. Therefore I won't write about it.


However I didn't really exchanged my essences. I just don't need the more morale.
But everyone has to decide that for themselves.


TL;DR:

• most attacks in Osgiliath T2s are avoidable, but don't do much damage
• unavoidable attacks do much more damage
• enemys have more burst damage than consistent damage

[CaerArianrhod]

Hi,
I have heard that the mobs in Osgilliath T2s have maximum finesse, and that their attacks can't be evaded etc. I therefore wonder if slotting any BPE essences is worthwhile in an ideal setup for these instances?

I have heard that rumour as well and I don't understand why everyone believes it?

Even without Pledge or Juggernaught I was seeing many Blocks, Parries and Evades.
If you start off a fight off with Pledge or Juggernaught watch your Physical and Full Avoids sky rocket to high numbers.

Not sure who is spreading this rumour but I don't know on what basis they are laying their claims.

I think the rumor is coming from the orc-craft damage type.
(need to be confirmed: it seems that you can get your orc-craft/fell-wrough mitigation only with "raw" physical mitigation high enough, which is maybe not an issue for a guardian.)

EDIT:
1. (i could copy my guart to BR to check). Our Shild with it's high Armour counts too (seems that the 20% for "other type of damage" from the Armour-Stat fit the amout of orc-carft mit. i got from the shield).
2. if ppl don't look at the combat log or don't use CA, it is easy to come to the conclusion, that the mobs has max. finesse, because usually no one try to go over cap with (phys) mitigation. since this was not really needed in the past.

[Lenkamir]

Regarding OC/FW mitigations: In the Ettenmoors, capping this makes a fairly considerable difference to incoming damage. In RC T2, the mobs between bosses 1 and 2 do some attacks of this damage type. However, I don't think capping OC/FW is necessary. My guard, when in non-tact mits tanking spec (not slotting virtues or essences to raise tact mits as only spirits do tact damage), has fairly high OC/FW mits anyway from virtues as well as armour - virtues like charity, chosen for resistance. I find this to be very survivable (without capping OC/FW) - leaving me comfortable to tank the trash mobs with both a hunter and RK in dps specs (though the RK's fire-build had some off-heals).