Giant Snakes

[Kobalos]

So was clean up around my firewood pile this morning when I encountered a 2 foot Copperhead not a giant snake but large for a Copperhead , and it made me wonder are there any giant snakes in LOTRO? I have not play to the end or explored ever region. I have killed lizards and drakes and such but I don't recall any giant snakes. And I don't remember any in the books either, but it has been years since I read them. So are there Giant Snakes in Middle Earth?

[Zetsubousensei]

No giant snakes in the books as far as I can recall, and even if Turbine could add them, I don't think they would very quickly. A giant snake would be a more complex structure for the art department to animate. Its whole body needs to bend and it would need some precise animating to make the slithering look natural. The skeletal structure would be more complex than your usual humanoid. And I don't mean a real skeleton, but the skeleton structure of an animation program. Normal humanoid characters have only nine joint points; the knees, the hips, the shoulders, the elbows and neck. Additionally there's swivel to the upper body. I can't remember if there's any functionality in ankles and wrists, although wrists probably swivel around to accomodate swinging weapon in combat. A snake's body in comparison would be nothing but joints the whole way - at least if you want to animate it decently.

[OldMadeOfLions]

No giant snakes in the books as far as I can recall, and even if Turbine could add them, I don't think they would very quickly. A giant snake would be a more complex structure for the art department to animate.

We considered adding snakes when we were developing Evendim, actually -- the complexity of animating them is precisely what got them crossed off the list. It might be cool to revisit them as a possibility in the future, though.

MoL

[Castorix]

No giant snakes in the books as far as I can recall, and even if Turbine could add them, I don't think they would very quickly. A giant snake would be a more complex structure for the art department to animate. Its whole body needs to bend and it would need some precise animating to make the slithering look natural. The skeletal structure would be more complex than your usual humanoid. And I don't mean a real skeleton, but the skeleton structure of an animation program. Normal humanoid characters have only nine joint points; the knees, the hips, the shoulders, the elbows and neck. Additionally there's swivel to the upper body. I can't remember if there's any functionality in ankles and wrists, although wrists probably swivel around to accomodate swinging weapon in combat. A snake's body in comparison would be nothing but joints the whole way - at least if you want to animate it decently.

Animating a snake is not too difficult with DirectX
There are samples on the net, like, for example, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X6t6evLBSM8

[Kobalos]

We considered adding snakes when we were developing Evendim, actually -- the complexity of animating them is precisely what got them crossed off the list. It might be cool to revisit them as a possibility in the future, though.

MoL

Thanks for the info. It is too bad about the animation problem, I think a giant python popping up in Frogtown and swallowing little Hobbits (Bite size morsels of squishy goodness) would be funny, well not for the Hobbits but for the bystanders.

Now that I think about it I have seen small snakes in the game slithering around but I think they were all like level 1 non-combatants.

[Leixy]

I would love for Turbine to add more mob types and AI to their bucket list for this game.

Lore-masters have a pet snake, and there's a few 1 morale snakes around, but nothing terribly large in the game.

I think the worms in Moria and Mirkwood are probably the closest thing to a large snake in the game.

[bambubambubambu]

Somebody had to do it...

[paebrain]

Depending on the size of the snake ...

I meleed them in WoW and it was a real pain to know when I was in melee distance and whether I was in front or behind (I was playing DPS). Not a huge issue, but annoying.

[Tommyyy]

It might be cool to revisit them as a possibility in the future, though.

MoL

STOP DOING EVERYTHING WRONG DUDE

[Cloudie-wan]

We considered adding snakes when we were developing Evendim, actually -- the complexity of animating them is precisely what got them crossed off the list. It might be cool to revisit them as a possibility in the future, though.

MoL

I always thought that there should be some sort of lake monster in Evendim, even if not something we could fight but something that you could just glimpse in the distance. I was a bit excited when I heard Roving Threats were added there because I was hoping one of them would be water-based. Oh well.

[EmyrSelyf]

Just use the little ones and make the art larger and then give them a poison skill that gives you that drunk effect that makes you unable to see how bad they look....

[Kobalos]

I always thought that there should be some sort of lake monster in Evendim, even if not something we could fight but something that you could just glimpse in the distance. I was a bit excited when I heard Roving Threats were added there because I was hoping one of them would be water-based. Oh well.

I know it really is not in the lore of the game but I would really like some water monsters. I have gone swimming in many of the lake, easier to go through them than around them, and I always thought some kind of water encounters would be great fun.

It is my personal opinion that anything that is not specifically excluded by the lore should be allowed. But that is a different thread.

[maartena]

Animating a snake is not too difficult with DirectX
There are samples on the net, like, for example, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X6t6evLBSM8

The example you posted is just snakes going through the grass. The difficulties probably mostly lie in the COMBAT animations.

[Aedfrith]

"Down, snake!" he said suddenly in a terrible voice. "Down on your belly! How long is it since Saruman bought you? What was the promised price? When all the men were dead, you were to pick your share of the treasure, and take the woman you desire? [...]
"See, Théoden, here is a snake! With safety you cannot take it with you, nor can you leave it behind."

My impression is that "snakes" in Middle-Earth don't get bigger than, say, a copperhead or an adder - but that there were such things as Cold-worms, like Glaurung but without the fire breath. These were giant lizards with legs, not snakes.

[HeirOfNumenor]

I know it really is not in the lore of the game but I would really like some water monsters. I have gone swimming in many of the lake, easier to go through them than around them, and I always thought some kind of water encounters would be great fun.

It is my personal opinion that anything that is not specifically excluded by the lore should be allowed. But that is a different thread.

While water monsters - be it Kraken or Loch Ness - (along with sharks, giant squid, etc) have NOT been mentioned by Tolkien in his canon, the Silmarillion is quite explicit that the waters of the world are the domain of the Vala Ulmo (analogous to Greek god Poseiden), in that all the waters of the world are under his care, that through the waters (including rivers/creeks/streams) that Elves and Men receive inspiration from from Ulmo in their resistance to Morgroth. So much so that the Orcs abhorred water, and their seemed to go to great lengths to defile or dry up rivers (or went far out of their way to avoid crossing them). Therefore, it would be highly unlikely that there were any evil creatures or monsters living in the waters before the Fourth Age. While it is true that in the First Age, Melkor created many monsters (either they were fallen Maiar already, or he captured creatures previously created by the Vala under the power of Illuvatar and Melkor used his dark arts to twist them into counterfeit life forms - Elves became Orcs, Ents became Trolls), all monsters created were land based, with the flying dragons being the final monsters. NO HINT exists that Melkor/Morgroth, or Sauron ever dared to mess with the waters, other than to defile or pollute them....maybe something eventually spawned through the toxic waste dumps?

[Draconfier]

While water monsters - be it Kraken or Loch Ness - (along with sharks, giant squid, etc) have NOT been mentioned by Tolkien in his canon, the Silmarillion is quite explicit that the waters of the world are the domain of the Vala Ulmo (analogous to Greek god Poseiden), in that all the waters of the world are under his care, that through the waters (including rivers/creeks/streams) that Elves and Men receive inspiration from from Ulmo in their resistance to Morgroth. So much so that the Orcs abhorred water, and their seemed to go to great lengths to defile or dry up rivers (or went far out of their way to avoid crossing them). Therefore, it would be highly unlikely that there were any evil creatures or monsters living in the waters before the Fourth Age. While it is true that in the First Age, Melkor created many monsters (either they were fallen Maiar already, or he captured creatures previously created by the Vala under the power of Illuvatar and Melkor used his dark arts to twist them into counterfeit life forms - Elves became Orcs, Ents became Trolls), all monsters created were land based, with the flying dragons being the final monsters. NO HINT exists that Melkor/Morgroth, or Sauron ever dared to mess with the waters, other than to defile or pollute them....maybe something eventually spawned through the toxic waste dumps?

I disagree with this. We know that there did indeed exist something that fit or could be construed as a Kraken (although never directly called this by Tolkien) from Tolkiens works, that being the Watcher in the Water. As Gandalf commented, "Something has crept or been driven out of the dark water under the mountains. There are older and fouler things than orcs in the deep places of the world."[1] Far below the lowest Deep of Khazad-dûm, lay primordial tunnels in perpetual darkness, gnawed by 'nameless things' that had lived there since the earliest beginnings of Arda.

This puts a "monster" that is older than Orcs, (which were twisted forms of Elves) created by Melkor. Perhaps it was created during the Ainulindalë during the periods of discord between the First or Second Themes or even perhaps during the Third Theme. Or possibly it was created by Melkor during his initial creation of Utumno, perhaps a version of a cold-drake or a long-worm like Scatha. During this time he caused decay to Arda, and his works went un-challenged after he destroyed the Valar's initial creation of the Twin Lamps and their residence between, as they were kept occupied preventing the destruction of much of Arda, and during their creation of Valinor on the continent of Aman, Melkor went unchallenged and he created many fell and twisted creatures in Middle-Earth, and it wasn't until the Valar discovered he had captured many of the Elves and had subverted and twisted them that they then waged war against him in the War of Powers; where-in Utumno's gates were rent open and Melkor was finally subdued.

[HunterGreen]

I think some of the animations of the grodbog warriors could also be adopted, as they rear up and writhe in a snake-like manner.

Generally speaking I think it's the easy knee-jerk reaction to say that "Tolkien didn't write about X so there can't be X", and this is particularly easy to say when we have people trying to drag things from other media into Middle-earth. But the more you read Tolkien the clearer it is that, if something is thoroughly grounded in the old myths, and doesn't contradict anything he included, it probably could fit. The Watcher is a good example: if we didn't have that chapter, people would insist something like the Watcher wouldn't fit at all, and yet there we have it. The "nameless things" that Gandalf speaks of in the deepest parts of Moria, the casual mention of the "Were-worms of the Last Desert", a few references to giants despite them not appearing in the stories, and even Sauron's association with shapechangers and particularly 'were-wolves', are all good examples of things that might seem like they didn't fit at first blush, but which have deep roots in the ancient myths that inspired Tolkien, and that he therefore didn't hesitate to slip into the world whenever he pleased. I would be a thousand times more comfortable with Turbine giving us a sea monster than a beholder.

[BangoTwinkletoes]

While water monsters - be it Kraken or Loch Ness - (along with sharks, giant squid, etc) have NOT been mentioned by Tolkien in his canon, the Silmarillion is quite explicit that the waters of the world are the domain of the Vala Ulmo (analogous to Greek god Poseiden), in that all the waters of the world are under his care, that through the waters (including rivers/creeks/streams) that Elves and Men receive inspiration from from Ulmo in their resistance to Morgroth. So much so that the Orcs abhorred water, and their seemed to go to great lengths to defile or dry up rivers (or went far out of their way to avoid crossing them). Therefore, it would be highly unlikely that there were any evil creatures or monsters living in the waters before the Fourth Age. While it is true that in the First Age, Melkor created many monsters (either they were fallen Maiar already, or he captured creatures previously created by the Vala under the power of Illuvatar and Melkor used his dark arts to twist them into counterfeit life forms - Elves became Orcs, Ents became Trolls), all monsters created were land based, with the flying dragons being the final monsters. NO HINT exists that Melkor/Morgroth, or Sauron ever dared to mess with the waters, other than to defile or pollute them....maybe something eventually spawned through the toxic waste dumps?

It's worth making the distinction between a "monster" and a creature of nature - a lion, tiger, wolf, crocodile etc - animals that are essentially "neutral" in that they kill to either eat or to defend themselves. So in the context of sea creatures one has sharks, whales and of course giant squid that could be considered "monsters" by those who would not know otherwise but which are certainly not evil corruptions of nature by Melkor. Also let's not forget the Watcher who also liked to live in water.

Talking about the watcher - any reason why the animations of the watchers tentacles could not be adapted to represent a giant snake rearing up to strike?

[HeirOfNumenor]

I disagree with this. We know that there did indeed exist something that fit or could be construed as a Kraken (although never directly called this by Tolkien) from Tolkiens works, that being the Watcher in the Water. As Gandalf commented, "Something has crept or been driven out of the dark water under the mountains. There are older and fouler things than orcs in the deep places of the world."[1] Far below the lowest Deep of Khazad-dûm, lay primordial tunnels in perpetual darkness, gnawed by 'nameless things' that had lived there since the earliest beginnings of Arda.

This puts a "monster" that is older than Orcs, (which were twisted forms of Elves) created by Melkor. Perhaps it was created during the Ainulindalë during the periods of discord between the First or Second Themes or even perhaps during the Third Theme. Or possibly it was created by Melkor during his initial creation of Utumno, perhaps a version of a cold-drake or a long-worm like Scatha. During this time he caused decay to Arda, and his works went un-challenged after he destroyed the Valar's initial creation of the Twin Lamps and their residence between, as they were kept occupied preventing the destruction of much of Arda, and during their creation of Valinor on the continent of Aman, Melkor went unchallenged and he created many fell and twisted creatures in Middle-Earth, and it wasn't until the Valar discovered he had captured many of the Elves and had subverted and twisted them that they then waged war against him in the War of Powers; where-in Utumno's gates were rent open and Melkor was finally subdued.

I was wrong. I stand corrected. Just don't tell my wife. k?

I let myself get focused on where The Silmarillion says that Melkor never had the power to create life - he could only corrupt that which Illuvatar had made (such as Elves into Orcs, Ents into Trolls), though that doesn't explain how Melkor/Morgroth created the dragons - unless they were fallen Maiar as were the Balrogs....

[HeirOfNumenor]

It's worth making the distinction between a "monster" and a creature of nature - a lion, tiger, wolf, crocodile etc - animals that are essentially "neutral" in that they kill to either eat or to defend themselves. So in the context of sea creatures one has sharks, whales and of course giant squid that could be considered "monsters" by those who would not know otherwise but which are certainly not evil corruptions of nature by Melkor. Also let's not forget the Watcher who also liked to live in water.

True, though wolves are seen throughout Tolkien's works as the allies of Orcs and Goblins - if not mentioned as serving Morgroth or Sauron specifically....

[kickman77]

I would imagine a place like the path and stair to Cirith Ungul . Shelobs would be littered with snakes...

Also they dont have to be big to be deadly...

[Kobalos]

I would imagine a place like the path and stair to Cirith Ungul . Shelobs would be littered with snakes...

Also they dont have to be big to be deadly...

Falling into a pit of vipers would not be pleasant and if there were enough of them, with poison, they could easily kill a person before they could get healed/cured.