[Update 17: Guardian Legacy Changes] Focused Feedback

[Anurin_The_Wise]

From the Build 1 Release Notes:

• Guardian's Pledge Cooldown now gives Retaliation Damage after Tier 35.
• Guardian's Pledge Magnitude now gives Shield Swipe Damage after Tier 35.
• Turn the Tables Cooldown now gives Turn the Tables Damage after Tier 35.

I must confess that the selection of these bonus legacy effects after Tier 35 and their pairings leave me scratching my helm.

Guardian's Pledge Cooldown now gives Retaliation Damage after Tier 35.

So, as of Build 2, maxing the imbued Guardian's Pledge Cooldown legacy to Tier 44 (the current new maximum tier with Update 17) gives us +3.6% to Retaliation Damage. Guardian's Pledge is primarily a tanking survival skill. Retaliation and Whirling Retaliation both proc as a parry response. When you are tanking, you are almost always going to hit Whirling Retaliation over Retaliation because it hits multiple targets, thereby helping you to hold aggro when tanking multiple mobs. As it stands right now (a negligible increase in damage to a single target skill), this imbued legacy is not worth investing Scrolls of Empowerment beyond Tier 35. Please consider changing the bonus effect for this legacy to something better suited for tanking. Examples might be: +Shield Taunt Targets, +War Chant Targets, +War Chant Duration.

Guardian's Pledge Magnitude now gives Shield Swipe Damage after Tier 35.

As of Build 2, maxing the imbued Guardian's Pledge Magnitude legacy to Tier 44 gives us +3.6% to Shield Swipe Damage. Once again, Guardian's Pledge is primarily a tanking survival skill. Once again, this is a negligible increase to a single target skill that has two attacks, one of which does common damage (without shield spikes). As it stands right now (a negligible increase in damage to a single target skill), this imbued legacy is not worth investing Scrolls of Empowerment beyond Tier 35. Please consider changing the bonus effect for this legacy to something better suited for tanking. Examples might be: Bringing back some of the tanking legacies that are removed upon imbuement, such as +Guardian's Ward Duration or +Guardian Area Effect Melee Targets (the loss of which are the reason that many Guardians have chosen not to imbue their tanking LIs at all).

Turn the Tables Cooldown now gives Turn the Tables Damage after Tier 35.

As of Build 2, maxing the imbued Turn the Tables Cooldown legacy to Tier 44 gives us +3.6% to Turn the Tables Damage. Turn the Tables is a single target skill with the primary purpose of freeing you from a stun and beginning a Fellowship Maneuver. It has not ever been and will not ever be used primarily as a skill to inflict damage. As it stands right now (a negligible increase in damage to a single target skill that is never used with the primary purpose of inflicting damage), this imbued legacy is not worth investing Scrolls of Empowerment beyond Tier 35. Please consider changing the bonus effect for this legacy to something better. At the risk of sounding redundant, examples might be: Bringing back some of the tanking legacies that are removed upon imbuement, such as +Guardian's Ward Duration or +Guardian Area Effect Melee Targets (the loss of which are the reason that many Guardians have chosen not to imbue their tanking LIs at all).

tl;dr --> Considering how much investment it takes to get these legacies all the way to Tier 44, I feel like we should start seeing more "bang for our buck" with the bonus effects. Turbine...if you really want to achieve your objective of driving sales of Legacy Tier Upgrades then please give us a reason to push our LIs to the max. Respectfully, please realize that negligible increases in damage to single target skills do not fall into that category and you are doing yourselves and all of us Guardians somewhat of a disservice with these proposed changes.

Thank you very much for all of your efforts thus far...Guardians are still in a pretty decent place overall, but please give us a reason to imbue our tanking Legendary Items that enhances our ability to perform our primary role.

[Gildintar]

Listen to this wise man

[Tirian-Hammerfist]

tl;dr --> Considering how much investment it takes to get these legacies all the way to Tier 44, I feel like we should start seeing more "bang for our buck" with the bonus effects. Turbine...if you really want to achieve your objective of driving sales of Legacy Tier Upgrades then please give us a reason to push our LIs to the max. Respectfully, please realize that negligible increases in damage to single target skills do not fall into that category and you are doing yourselves and all of us Guardians somewhat of a disservice with these proposed changes.

Thank you very much for all of your efforts thus far...Guardians are still in a pretty decent place overall, but please give us a reason to imbue our tanking Legendary Items that enhances our ability to perform our primary role.

What he said... Guardians don't want a damage boost plastered on the end of their tanking legacies - it is utterly useless to append these just for the sake of it. It was originally said that imbued LIs were designed as a way of ensuring advancement which would replace another level cap - but to me, this feels rather like levelling 5 levels under the pre-HD system, and getting an improved skill which does marginally more damage - if our LIs don't provide it, and we're not getting a level cap increase, where is the advancement coming from, and why on earth would we bother to spend more empowerment scrolls on these dud extensions to legacies?

[Dovakhim]

I wholeheartedly agree to what was said in this thread.

[Perdon]

signed.

Actually I still act as a Tank with my 2nd Age Lvl 95 Weapon. I see no reason to change that.
Please listen to the first comment in this thread. Tanks want to get legacies that help with tanking. We are no damage dealers.

More heal, more targets, more mitigation, less cooldown, more threat, longer duration.

[Mellana]

/sign.

I'd have no problem with improvements of damage legacies that way. But "improving" tanking legacies as was done is beyond senseless.

The only good thing is: legendaries now are the cheap part of equipping a guardian - no imbueing (at least the weapon), less XP pills, less SoEs ... *grins*

Mel

[NeebPlayer]

Guardian's Pledge Magnitude is a troll legacy. Without it GP already adds 3x50 = 150% bpe, so you can only get hit from behind. Are you really going to slot a legacy just to increase your evade chance for attacks from behind by 10% or what?

[Magentix]

I agree the current 35+ bonuses are lackluster at best. However, please stop spreading the following generalization:

Examples might be: Bringing back some of the tanking legacies that are removed upon imbuement, such as +Guardian's Ward Duration or +Guardian Area Effect Melee Targets (the loss of which are the reason that many Guardians have chosen not to imbue their tanking LIs at all).

While they were good legacies and it sucked to lose them, GRD imbued LIs are actually very balanced and well designed. Guardians who choose not to evolve with the new system are in my opinion doomed to fall behind by their own doing. I was skeptical myself, but after imbuing I have not looked back. You are so much more powerful with imbued legacies, it's ridiculous.

Also, gating such powerful old legacies behind legacies people may otherwise not choose is a bad idea. It would require people to slot less valuable legacies just to reach the bonuses they provide beyond tier 35. I'm more in favor of post 35 bonuses that enhance what the legacy already does. For instance:

• Guardian's Pledge Cooldown now increases its duration after Tier 35 (by a small amount).
• Guardian's Pledge Magnitude now gives GP +xxx% partial BPE while it's up after Tier 35.
• Turn the Tables Cooldown now increases the stun immunity duration after Tier 35

[commdorvis]

I agree the current 35+ bonuses are lackluster at best. However, please stop spreading the following generalization:


While they were good legacies and it sucked to lose them, GRD imbued LIs are actually very balanced and well designed. Guardians who choose not to evolve with the new system are in my opinion doomed to fall behind by their own doing. I was skeptical myself, but after imbuing I have not looked back. You are so much more powerful with imbued legacies, it's ridiculous.

+Area Effect Melee Targets is the most or second most (after Force Taunt Duration) important legacy for tanking Guardians. I routinely tank instances where I fight more than 5 targets, and while force taunts are nice and all, you can't maintain a force taunt on more than two or three targets all of the time. You have to be tagging them with your AOE skills, building aggro, or you will lose aggro to the Champion or Rune-keeper who actually can hit the targets you're tanking. I don't know any Guardians who imbue their tanking weapons, personally.

[Magentix]

+Area Effect Melee Targets is the most or second most (after Force Taunt Duration) important legacy for tanking Guardians. I routinely tank instances where I fight more than 5 targets, and while force taunts are nice and all, you can't maintain a force taunt on more than two or three targets all of the time. You have to be tagging them with your AOE skills, building aggro, or you will lose aggro to the Champion or Rune-keeper who actually can hit the targets you're tanking. I don't know any Guardians who imbue their tanking weapons, personally.

I have. We run T2C raids. I am holding aggro just fine.

These threads about how we got the short end of the stick and life without the AoE targets legacy is impossible are starting to annoy me. Learn to adapt people. Trust me on this one: If you know how to play your GRD, you will not all of the sudden suck at tanking. Especially given the +10seconds force attack you can get from jewelry and legacy.

The only spec that really suffers from the loss of +AoE targets is red. And I believe red is exactly why the legacy got removed: Guardians in DPS stance outhealing any damage received as long as they don't get permastunned.

[Dovakhim]

I have. We run T2C raids. I am holding aggro just fine.

These threads about how we got the short end of the stick and life without the AoE targets legacy is impossible are starting to annoy me. Learn to adapt people. Trust me on this one: If you know how to play your GRD, you will not all of the sudden suck at tanking. Especially given the +10seconds force attack you can get from jewelry and legacy.

The only spec that really suffers from the loss of +AoE targets is red. And I believe red is exactly why the legacy got removed: Guardians in DPS stance outhealing any damage received as long as they don't get permastunned.

Please stop claiming BS like that.

What literally everyone else said in this thread is very valid.

PLease, devs, change the imbued tanking options to actual tanking options.

Thanks.

[Theozor]

/signed

I still haven't imbued my Guardian's weapon because of the loss of AOE targets. Please give us back the AOE target legacy (even if it's tacked on in small increments to the AOE damage one) or switch the Sweeping Cut Targets trait to a general AOE targets trait (with 5 ranks instead of 2).

[Coeprandua]

Please stop claiming BS like that.

What literally everyone else said in this thread is very valid.

PLease, devs, change the imbued tanking options to actual tanking options.

Thanks.

I can confirm 2 points here:

1. He imbued his LIs.

2. He can tank.

Conclusion: Don't accuse of BS until you tried yourself.

[Mcgiver]

the tank with the most useful legacys and the easiest toon for tanking begs for even more buffs...
sure the new legacy changes are useless but seriously the only "downside" is your max target tanking of 10?
talk to a beorning or cappy how you struggle tanking multiple mobs so they can laugh a bit

cant wait to see the pathetic buffs for the other tank classes just improving dps instead of tanking ability

[Coeprandua]

the tank with the most useful legacys and the easiest toon for tanking begs for even more buffs...
sure the new legacy changes are useless but seriously the only "downside" is your max target tanking of 10?
talk to a beorning or cappy how you struggle tanking multiple mobs so they can laugh a bit

cant wait to see the pathetic buffs for the other tank classes just improving dps instead of tanking ability

The MMO crowd is very narrow-minded. If a cappy or bear is trying to tank and it doesn't go smoothly, they think the person sucks at tanking or the class is simply not suitable for tanking (so the person sucks for wasting their time trying it.) I fight every single post I find in the forums that says beorning blue line is useless. Unfortunately, the only way to fix this (that will never happen) would be to nerf guards beyond recognition. I would be all for it, even though I play a guard tank.

[Mcgiver]

The MMO crowd is very narrow-minded. If a cappy or bear is trying to tank and it doesn't go smoothly, they think the person sucks at tanking or the class is simply not suitable for tanking (so the person sucks for wasting their time trying it.) I fight every single post I find in the forums that says beorning blue line is useless. Unfortunately, the only way to fix this (that will never happen) would be to nerf guards beyond recognition. I would be all for it, even though my guard tank is my most played toon.

blue line beorning isnt useless but tbh i dont see any useful rotation to make the life of your healer easy most buffs debuffs are just weak/a waste of wrath the heals are pathetic and you bpe sucks
but if all narrowminded beornings are wrong just write a guide for tanking i would love to read it

[Coeprandua]

blue line beorning isnt useless but tbh i dont see any useful rotation to make the life of your healer easy most buffs debuffs are just weak/a waste of wrath the heals are pathetic and you bpe sucks
but if all narrowminded beornings are wrong just write a guide for tanking i would love to read it

I haven't touched/logged my cappy and beorning since U16/Imbuement came out. Before that time I tanked on both toons quite a lot: Elizabeast (Cappy on Dwarrowdelf) and Medvelany (Beorning on Brandywine), if those names tell you anything. I'm afraid I wouldn't be able to write a guide now.

I think you missed the point. I couldn't tank on them as well as a guard or warden could tank, and that's not because I don't know a magical rotation, it's because there isn't one. My biggest problem with the beorning was always picking up new spawns or mobs scattered around a bigger area as I had to move to them and thus move all the mobs already on me. But for me, tanking is only fun when I struggle.

[siipperi]

Guardian's Pledge Magnitude is a troll legacy. Without it GP already adds 3x50 = 150% bpe, so you can only get hit from behind. Are you really going to slot a legacy just to increase your evade chance for attacks from behind by 10% or what?

This isnt exactly how math behind avoidances work, but yes point is right, it's not that good of legacy.

[siipperi]

Please stop claiming BS like that.

What literally everyone else said in this thread is very valid.

PLease, devs, change the imbued tanking options to actual tanking options.

Thanks.

That isn't BS, I have both atm on use imbued and non imbued and cant really say I need extra targets, taunts, forced taunts, warchant and shield blow is enough. Sure more targets would be better but it's not really needed and really only makes red line stupidly OP.

[Magentix]

Before I derail this thread any further, I still think my statement above was on point and could serve to be very accurate. So let's put some numbers on it.

• Guardian's Pledge Cooldown now increases its duration by 0.25sec/tier after Tier 35.
• Guardian's Pledge Magnitude now gives GP +1% partial BPE/tier while it's up after Tier 35.
• Turn the Tables Cooldown now increases the stun immunity duration by 0.5sec/tier after Tier 35.

Assuming they implement it that way, they could go as high as tier 55 (20 extra tiers) without having to rethink the post 35 bonuses. It would provide the following when maxed:

• Guardian's Pledge lasts 5 seconds longer.
• Guardian's Pledge now grants 20% extra partial B/P/E.
• Turn the Tables now grants 30 seconds combat state immunity instead of 20 (when specced for it).

Again, these changes are in line with what the legacy currently already improves. In my opinion, they would make a lot more sense than adding back old, unrelated legacies.

Please stop claiming BS like that. What literally everyone else said in this thread is very valid.

No, it isn't valid. People need to learn to adapt. I can honestly say I tank like a beast and I have imbued my LIs a long time ago.
Did it change the way we have to tank? Yes. Is that bad? No, tanking was way too easy as a GRD.

Example: On Gortheron it now occasionaly happens that a wall breach mob slips through because I refuse to use Challenge unless it's really necessary. (Also to prevent me from using it while G-man is in range.) But between War-chant, Shield-taunt, improved Shield Smash, Sweeping cut, etc. I usually pick up all mobs instantly. If something does slip through, I use my 50 meter (!) low-cooldown, single-target taunt to bring it back to me before it caused anyone harm.

And if all else fails, there is still Challenge because I don't use it whenever it's up. Seriously, if you learn how to manage your cooldowns and you don't have a brain dead raid, there is no reason you should ever have trouble tanking without +AoE targets.

Bonus point: Imbued Warrior's Heart self heal is a dozen times more OP than +AoE targets ever was. I couldn't care less for a few extra targets while tanking. The times a 50% self-heal (100% on crit) has saved my ### -both in raids as solo- I can no longer keep track off. That legacy right there is enough reason to imbue your LIs. A 25k-50k self heal on a low cooldown? Yes please!

I can confirm 2 points here:
1. He imbued his LIs.
2. He can tank.

Conclusion: Don't accuse of BS until you tried yourself.

<3

[SpicyMacHaggis]

Bonus point: Imbued Warrior's Heart self heal is a dozen times more OP than +AoE targets ever was. I couldn't care less for a few extra targets while tanking. The times a 50% self-heal (100% on crit) has saved my ### -both in raids as solo- I can no longer keep track off. That legacy right there is enough reason to imbue your LIs. A 25k-50k self heal on a low cooldown? Yes please!


<3

Get on my level


I know, i know abuse of an old set bonus. I just couldn't resist posting this.

[Coeprandua]

Get on my level


I know, i know abuse of an old set bonus. I just couldn't resist posting this.

Weak..........

[Theozor]

While I'm still leery of imbuing my guardian's weapon, there have been enough good ideas in this thread that I'm willing to test it out on BR. At least this way, if I don't like how the imbued weapon plays, I'm not stuck with it.

[Coeprandua]

While I'm still leery of imbuing my guardian's weapon, there have been enough good ideas in this thread that I'm willing to test it out on BR. At least this way, if I don't like how the imbued weapon plays, I'm not stuck with it.

Whilest I know imbuement doesn't kill tanking and it makes you more powerful, I still won't imbue my tanking weapons. Here's some reasons why:

1. I feel betrayed by the new LI system as we were led to believe grinding LIs was in the past, but imbuement introduced a heavier and more boring grind than ever and it killed alts. I know I know... we are supposed to get over ourselves and forgive. Every time.

2. The imbuement grind is so heavy and so despicable, it made us forget that we hated the LI system in the first place. Not everyone, but a lot of us. So now we would rather be back to the old system that we hated. Like I said, not everyone, but a lot of us.

3. Turbine now needs only a very minimal effort to "create endgame," simply by unlocking more legacy tiers on our LIs. They simplified the process for themselves and they sold it to us like it was something we wanted.

4. If you imbue your LIs and grind all these new tiers every time, it means you acknowledge that this kind of grindfest passes for a valid endgame. Whatever they feed to you will make you happy.

5. There is really no need to imbue your tanking LIs. Sure it makes for a more "healthy" way of tanking, but the price is too high.

[Celembar]

At the end of the day, Turbine are clueless about any of their classes. They don't play their own game, and they really don't care.