A better heal

[Ethrildar]

Man these threads are stupid.

I'd love to see Agile Rejoineder back, and scaled to current morale pool levels and creep outgoing damage. A nice, potent self heal on a short-ish cooldown, that has a drawback (being Melee and parry gated).

We had this before, it's not even remotely overpowered, it's not going to make the class even remotely overpowered. What's all you guys problem, do you struggle that much to kill bad hunters on your creeps that the thought of them getting a small heal like <every other class in the game, creep & freep> that you'll say they're OP and they don't need one?

Press Onward is junk. 50% of the time it's impossible to get off. The other 50% of the time, the amount of time taken to get it off, you take as much damage as you healed. It's not fluid, it's not fun to use, and it's nothing like you'd expect for a class that is otherwise pretty lore-abiding.

[Falconbeast]

For blue hunters, how about Bow of the Righteous healing morale as well as power?

This is a great idea

[Falconbeast]

So far I have not felt needing more heals for soloing at PvE side. Against harder/multiple opponents I have felt yellow line CC is usually enough, and for trivial (landscape) content blue line seems usually do the job.

Agree with this, in PvE we are fine and dont really need anything.
However, in the moors its a different story and we really could use a little love.

[siipperi]

Maybe put 2k heal on quick shot. That should fix hunter QQ.

[Enedraith]

Hunters are fine the way they are thank you. Imho the other classes need a nerf instead of the hunters being buffed. I'd explain why, but there are multiple posts in this thread already saying why.

[Annaliel]

do you struggle that much to kill bad hunters on your creeps that the thought of them getting a small heal like <every other class in the game, creep & freep> that you'll say they're OP and they don't need one?

No, the real question is.
Do hunters struggle that much killing creeps that they always need to ask for buffs?
2 lines are overpowered and one is extremely rng reliant but very overpowered too with the right procs so only thing i'd complain about is the extreme rng reliance.
Oh and nerf QS slow and yellow line please, they are stupid.

[Ethrildar]

No, the real question is.
Do hunters struggle that much killing creeps that they always need to ask for buffs?
2 lines are overpowered and one is extremely rng reliant but very overpowered too with the right procs so only thing i'd complain about is the extreme rng reliance.
Oh and nerf QS slow and yellow line please, they are stupid.

Good God.

Yeah, the absolute vast majority of 1v1s where a hunter comes up against any other creep, unless the Hunter is well versed in solo play, or the creep is a red rank, will result in a creep win. Good hunters who know how to solo? No, but MOST hunters vs MOST creeps? Yeah.

I can't help but laugh that you honestly think two lines are overpowered. One, yellow line, is insanely irritating and has potent CC ability, that's about as close to "OP" as it gets. Outside of a yellow hunter annoying the heck out of a Warg or Reaver, the trait line is borderline useless, more so in groups (completely useless when you compare it to what you COULD have in your group). Which other line is OP? Blue is horrendous, you can PS spam like a mofo but your DPS is God-awful, and red line has so many crutches that can be exploited for a super easy win versus a hunter, one of which is literally just moving around in a circle through the Hunter whilst meleeing it, or having more than 1 creep touch the hunter making it almost impossible for him to get skills off.

Clearly, you've not played hunter, you've just been destroyed by the one or two good ones that stand out from the thousands of very very poor ones. By this logic, absolutely every class, creep & freep is OP, the game is OP, we're all OP, your forum posts are OP, as are mine. What isn't OP with the right person behind it? General class balance shows that any other class with a very decent player behind it will utterly destroy a very decent red Hunter in MOST circumstances, that means they're not OP, if you couldn't work out what I was getting at.

RNG reliant is basically this entire game, welcome to lotro.

Nerf QS slow? Yeah maybe, really I don't find it affects my creeps that much, most people don't even run the legacy.

Nerf yellow line. Heh. Okay let's also nerf everything else that does what it says on the tin. A CC line that CCs? God damn, NERF IT.

Your problem is you've not learned how to counter the easiest class in the game there is to counter, you should do that and then come back with real suggestions. Currently all I can see is you asking Turbine to NERF the least powerful class in the entire game. I'm not asking them to make it like every other class (nor is anyone else here). I'm simply asking for Agile Rejoinder back, a tiny, balanced heal that will help Hunters out and occasionally give them a fighting chance where up until now there wasn't one. If that's really a problem for you, then the problem lies in your playing ability, not the classes you're fighting.

[SpicyMacHaggis]

and red line has so many crutches that can be exploited for a super easy win versus a hunter, one of which is literally just moving around in a circle through the Hunter whilst meleeing it, or having more than 1 creep touch the hunter making it almost impossible for him to get skills off.

It's far from impossible to get skills of while an enemy is circling through you.
You just need to be somewhat decent at mouseturning.


Then again 95% of the hunters out there probably don't even realise you can turn with the mouse.

[Annaliel]

Good God.

Yeah, the absolute vast majority of 1v1s where a hunter comes up against any other creep, unless the Hunter is well versed in solo play, or the creep is a red rank, will result in a creep win. Good hunters who know how to solo? No, but MOST hunters vs MOST creeps? Yeah.

I can't help but laugh that you honestly think two lines are overpowered. One, yellow line, is insanely irritating and has potent CC ability, that's about as close to "OP" as it gets. Outside of a yellow hunter annoying the heck out of a Warg or Reaver, the trait line is borderline useless, more so in groups (completely useless when you compare it to what you COULD have in your group). Which other line is OP? Blue is horrendous, you can PS spam like a mofo but your DPS is God-awful, and red line has so many crutches that can be exploited for a super easy win versus a hunter, one of which is literally just moving around in a circle through the Hunter whilst meleeing it, or having more than 1 creep touch the hunter making it almost impossible for him to get skills off.

Clearly, you've not played hunter, you've just been destroyed by the one or two good ones that stand out from the thousands of very very poor ones. By this logic, absolutely every class, creep & freep is OP, the game is OP, we're all OP, your forum posts are OP, as are mine. What isn't OP with the right person behind it? General class balance shows that any other class with a very decent player behind it will utterly destroy a very decent red Hunter in MOST circumstances, that means they're not OP, if you couldn't work out what I was getting at.

RNG reliant is basically this entire game, welcome to lotro.

Nerf QS slow? Yeah maybe, really I don't find it affects my creeps that much, most people don't even run the legacy.

Nerf yellow line. Heh. Okay let's also nerf everything else that does what it says on the tin. A CC line that CCs? God damn, NERF IT.

Your problem is you've not learned how to counter the easiest class in the game there is to counter, you should do that and then come back with real suggestions. Currently all I can see is you asking Turbine to NERF the least powerful class in the entire game. I'm not asking them to make it like every other class (nor is anyone else here). I'm simply asking for Agile Rejoinder back, a tiny, balanced heal that will help Hunters out and occasionally give them a fighting chance where up until now there wasn't one. If that's really a problem for you, then the problem lies in your playing ability, not the classes you're fighting.

I can't be bothered reading all this bs, clearly you don't play a hunter or you suck terribly at it, or it's just your huge freep goggles.
So lines where you have endless traps(and 40%+ evade, good luck hitting a yellow hunter) and you'll never get hit, or lines where you have a 60% slow with no cd usable on the move(and on the move you can use stuff like bard's arrow and distractng shot too) with no movement penalties aren't strong. Add the insane levels of morale you can get with all essences and you'll never die against ever while not having bad dps, good to know that these lines suck!
Or the red line...if stuff procs(essentially the hs set, the bb crit bonus and strong draw) you'll wreck any creep in few seconds, without using any induction if you are lucky, oh wait this is weak too!
Then in red if nothing procs you'll die, that's a line being possibly the most rng reliant thing in the whole game, but hey the potential is huge.
Only class i still play is hunter, clearly i don't know what i'm talking about!
lolol at weakest class in the entire game, go solo on a WL and tell me how far you'll go.
About red hunter in u17 i found this video, it isn't impressive in any way but you see how you kill anything extremely fast when stuff procs, just using hs and pen shot will kill anything with the right procs.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JOqFu7hvEmw
And remember, over 95% hunters are extremely terrible and then they are vocal about wanting it buffed instead of trying to improve.

[Ethrildar]

I can't be bothered reading all this bs, clearly you don't play a hunter or you suck terribly at it, or it's just your huge freep goggles.


lolol at weakest class in the entire game, go solo on a WL and tell me how far you'll go.


About red hunter in u17 i found this video, it isn't impressive in any way but you see how you kill anything extremely fast when stuff procs, just using hs and pen shot will kill anything with the right procs.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JOqFu7hvEmw


And remember, over 95% hunters are extremely terrible and then they are vocal about wanting it buffed instead of trying to improve.

1) I play a hunter, and I don't suck at it, problem is, most people do, the fact that a few exceptional people can make it work well doesn't mean squat, the same can be said for any class, only other classes have far higher skill caps. The class could use a nice little heal like Agile Rejoinder, there's really no decent argument against it, hunters are not OP lol.

2) Go solo on a healing/support class? Okay sure, I'll go do that while you go heal/support a group on your hunter, then? Your logic immensely flawed.

3) Red hunter in U17 has the option of a particular build with very very high burst that a select few have made work right which results in videos where they show only the winning outcome of fights that procced in their favour. Did they still win? Yeah. By a long shot? Some of the time sure. Walking around soloing where they don't have the chance to get up all their buffs (Focus prestart buff, time for BH etc. etc.), the outcomes of these fights would seriously change.

95% of hunters ARE extremely terrible, which was my main point in the first place. I'm not bad on hunter at all, and I'd quite like Agile Rejoinder back, it would make things a little more balanced for me, and I'm sure all those who are below me in skill level, and certainly some who are above me. It's not going to tilt the balance into making Hunters like Wardens, if you think so, you've died one too many times to Hunters.

Anyway, I'm done arguing with you. You're clearly right, hunter is indeed OP as hell, it's THE most OP class in the entire game, it doesn't need a small heal, it's Overpowered, it's way too OP, we better hope they nerf it now before we all die to OP hunters, because currently when on creep, the first target for any solo creep is clearly NOT the hunter, right? Oh wait...

[alleg]

Since healing is the main thing broken in the moors atm... I am against adding another heal back to hunter (particularily redline) or making PO insta cast. Since we all most likely are in agreement sweeping changes aren't needed and hopefully don't come to the redline hunter. It would imo be much better if they would make minor tweaks to certain skills, (not sure why I am beating a dead horse for the 1000th time) but here is what I think would greatly help redline in pvp without breaking the sacred cow, being PVE. The use of PVE armour sets in PVP is also a contentious thing, but I will leave that for another thread.

1.) Increase the root duration on low cut from initial of 5 to initial of 10 (similar to WLs shield bash). This would allow the hunter to slightly gain more room which would give them an opportunity to use a longer induction whether it being HS or PO. With diminishing returns this would hardly be game breaking. Or provide a larger grace period like 2 sec before the root is broke on damage in its current state.

2.) Eliminate the random luck from the RNG. Change the swift and true proc to decrease the induction of swiftbow by -20% for each use of QS with it maxing out at -100%. Let hunters be creative in their choice on when they use the skill (oh and if this isn't changed... make it so the -100% swiftbow cannot be interrupted...)

3.) Bring back swift stroke and parry as another defensive skill (not as important if animations are changed and root grace period changed)

4.) And since a wish list wouldn't be complete... fix the terrible animations of BH, IC, PP, and CoTH (all of which I personally have asked for and countless others have). Making the class more fluid will greatly improve its effectiveness.

With the limited dev time and more importantly the willingness for turbine to listen to its community, small changes have a much better chance of happening than drastic sweeping changes. (.0001% compared to .000000000001%). While a heal or massive morale increase is the norm for "fixing" things. The proposed changes above or some that have been mentioned in countless other places would go a long way if implemented incrementally until better balance is reached. Redline hunter is the closest freep class to creeps in terms of balance... while its not perfect its not that ungodly bad as most would make it seem.

JMO

Bralleg-1

[BadJuju]

Since healing is the main thing broken in the moors atm... I am against adding another heal back to hunter (particularily redline) or making PO insta cast. Since we all most likely are in agreement sweeping changes aren't needed and hopefully don't come to the redline hunter. It would imo be much better if they would make minor tweaks to certain skills, (not sure why I am beating a dead horse for the 1000th time) but here is what I think would greatly help redline in pvp without breaking the sacred cow, being PVE. The use of PVE armour sets in PVP is also a contentious thing, but I will leave that for another thread.

1.) Increase the root duration on low cut from initial of 5 to initial of 10 (similar to WLs shield bash). This would allow the hunter to slightly gain more room which would give them an opportunity to use a longer induction whether it being HS or PO. With diminishing returns this would hardly be game breaking. Or provide a larger grace period like 2 sec before the root is broke on damage in its current state.

2.) Eliminate the random luck from the RNG. Change the swift and true proc to decrease the induction of swiftbow by -20% for each use of QS with it maxing out at -100%. Let hunters be creative in their choice on when they use the skill (oh and if this isn't changed... make it so the -100% swiftbow cannot be interrupted...)

3.) Bring back swift stroke and parry as another defensive skill (not as important if animations are changed and root grace period changed)

4.) And since a wish list wouldn't be complete... fix the terrible animations of BH, IC, PP, and CoTH (all of which I personally have asked for and countless others have). Making the class more fluid will greatly improve its effectiveness.

With the limited dev time and more importantly the willingness for turbine to listen to its community, small changes have a much better chance of happening than drastic sweeping changes. (.0001% compared to .000000000001%). While a heal or massive morale increase is the norm for "fixing" things. The proposed changes above or some that have been mentioned in countless other places would go a long way if implemented incrementally until better balance is reached. Redline hunter is the closest freep class to creeps in terms of balance... while its not perfect its not that ungodly bad as most would make it seem.

JMO

Bralleg-1

Not even wanting PO to be instant cast is admitting that the heal is okay. You are either trolling or out of your mind. Not only that, but you die about 90% of the time at GTA, and you say red hunter is fine? What are you smoking?

[007Squanto]

Its borderline farce, this entire thread. Hunters are basically fodder for any creep who isn't absolutely awful, and the class is "okay". Lol. With the heart seeker set, a red hunter's use in a group is valid. Every other scenario results in the decimation of the hunter.

To all the hunters who supposedly do "fine", please, show me a video of you fighting high ranked, well played creeps open field. No nerfs, no perfect scenario that involves the creep pausing for a few seconds inexplicably for you to apply all of your buffs.

Can't wait to see the fights vs spiders. And Ba's. And wrath spamming reavers. and... every other class?

[Mcgiver]

Its borderline farce, this entire thread. Hunters are basically fodder for any creep who isn't absolutely awful, and the class is "okay". Lol. With the heart seeker set, a red hunter's use in a group is valid. Every other scenario results in the decimation of the hunter.

To all the hunters who supposedly do "fine", please, show me a video of you fighting high ranked, well played creeps open field. No nerfs, no perfect scenario that involves the creep pausing for a few seconds inexplicably for you to apply all of your buffs.

Can't wait to see the fights vs spiders. And Ba's. And wrath spamming reavers. and... every other class?

well many creeps OFTEN explained it , IF you are on freepside and arent able to kill 1vs1 a same skilled creep its totally fine its a group-based pvmp area
the only reason to start QQing about a class that isnt soloable if well played is a red warden (especially the macroed ones!!) and a mini and only sometimes about guards

thx for your attention

[007Squanto]

well many creeps OFTEN explained it , IF you are on freepside and arent able to kill 1vs1 a same skilled creep its totally fine its a group-based pvmp area
the only reason to start QQing about a class that isnt soloable if well played is a red warden (especially the macroed ones!!) and a mini and only sometimes about guards

thx for your attention

Yes, turbine has often said that pvp is balanced around group play, but they don't assert that the groups each class are balanced for are themselves perfectly balanced with a healer and a captain in each group, which is a composition that would make a class with no heals (the hunter) needless of heals indeed.

However there are many situations in which a hunter, in a group, finds his/herself without a support net to fall back on when focused. Other classes that have what I call "oh-####" skills can manage these situations, by popping a self heal, hipsing, defiant challenge, charge, warrior's heart, wisdom of the council, you name it. A hunter cannot. Even creeps have these abilities; a simple morale pot being one of them, and reflect, ato, sprint, the list goes on.

The game is balanced for group play, and so the class should be given some defensive skills that would give it some greater functionality in a less than ideal group rather than being a sitting duck in those situations. I mean really, the argument that the hunter class is "fine" is dishonest rhetoric. If you review the posts that say just that (that the class is fine) and you dissect the argument a little more, you realize that what's really being said is: The class + a pocket healer is fine, not the class itself.

[Grapold]

The Hunter IS fine, and it's probably the only class in the game that fits it's title. i.e. a Hunter is a Hunter.

It's all the other classes that are broken (including creep classes).

[Giliodor]

Rather than a better heal, I would much rather see a way to mitigate incoming damage. The problem with hunters is that they are incredibly squishy, even a heal won't do much about that.

[Oelle]

Rather than a better heal, I would much rather see a way to mitigate incoming damage. The problem with hunters is that they are incredibly squishy, even a heal won't do much about that.

even more mitigations? you already have 58% and really high avoidance, if you want to... wanna be a tank?

[Grapold]

even more mitigations? you already have 58% and really high avoidance, if you want to... wanna be a tank?

Way to many Hunters want to be tanks or healers it seems, perhaps they should have researched the classes before rolling their toons.

[Giliodor]

even more mitigations? you already have 58% and really high avoidance, if you want to... wanna be a tank?

I did not say more mitigations, I said a way to mitigate damage. Two different things. Also, you're really not going to 58% Orc-craft mits and tactical mits without sacrificing a huge amount of either damage, or morale.

[007Squanto]

I've resolved that years of overpowered healing from classes like the warden and minstrel have made the pvp community so oversensitive to even the idea of healing that the suggestion of a trivial heal, like agile rejoinder, which as Apple mentioned was never anywhere near overpowered, causes the collection of hunter purists that like to browse the forums, to shake their angry heads at the blasphemy that is floating green numbers.

[Oelle]

I did not say more mitigations, I said a way to mitigate damage. Two different things. Also, you're really not going to 58% Orc-craft mits and tactical mits without sacrificing a huge amount of either damage, or morale.

thats, what its meant to be. you can have massive amounts of defense. but not massive amounts of defense AND massive amounts of offense
would be kinda lame, if you could cap just everything.
i personally would prefer, if there were no caps at all. better formulas could make all those caps unneeded.

[alleg]

Instead of adding a heal to increase the effectiveness of the class (since healing is broken throughout the entire game, specifically the selfheals of those in DPS lines) by correcting things that are supposed to increase the damage output of the class. Two potentially simple things that could be changed to helpaddress the classes effectiveness are fixing terrible animations (looking at CoTH, IC, and Purge Poison) and fixing whatever bugs that are still around since the introduction of trait trees... specifically archers mark. Sure would be nice if it would subtract 4k crit d like it is supposed to (as far as ik after testing today... still doesnt' work).

Fix a damage class through its damage dealing capabilities... not adding a heal to it.

Bralleg-1

[007Squanto]

Instead of adding a heal to increase the effectiveness of the class (since healing is broken throughout the entire game, specifically the selfheals of those in DPS lines) by correcting things that are supposed to increase the damage output of the class. Two potentially simple things that could be changed to helpaddress the classes effectiveness are fixing terrible animations (looking at CoTH, IC, and Purge Poison) and fixing whatever bugs that are still around since the introduction of trait trees... specifically archers mark. Sure would be nice if it would subtract 4k crit d like it is supposed to (as far as ik after testing today... still doesnt' work).

Fix a damage class through its damage dealing capabilities... not adding a heal to it.

Bralleg-1

None of these changes would alter the outcome of a fight in any significant way whatsoever. You have a class that is seriously at a disadvantage and you want to solve that issue by implementing a bunch of weak changes probably ( I'm guessing here) because you're afraid to suggest an actually substantive change ( like some added defence) due to the prospect of being trolled. Because its the "radical" suggestions that will get you trolled and labeled a horrible player.

Not only that, but your post illustrates the heal-a-phobia that I just addressed. It makes. no. sense.

Players seem to have this idea that the concept of the hunter as a raw dps class is a balanced and perfectly imagined concept. As I've said before, in no other *balanced* MMO is there a dps class that has no healing potential. I'd believe you if you said the concept of the hunter was balanced if you could provide me with another example, but there isn't one. Its a horrible idea, and it needs to be changed.

[007Squanto]

Way to many Hunters want to be tanks or healers it seems, perhaps they should have researched the classes before rolling their toons.

No one in this thread has suggested either of those things even remotely. You've taken two ideas ( adding a small heal, and adding some mitigations) and erroneously blown them out of proportion.