A better heal

[007Squanto]

It is not even close to the best debuff class, as I can't even think of a real debuff it has besides the light oil one. The CC is good against all creeps but it is ridiculously exceptional against melee, I can understand people not seeing the higher end (in the hands of skilled players) benefits to some of the CC, but that is an issue with the player controlling the class, not the capabilities of the class being controlled.

.

He was probably referring to the heart seeker debuff.

[Intolerance]

..This is almost exactly what people want, even if they are too scared to admit it. They continue to compare hunters to classes with good/amazing self heals, like RK, and use that class as an example of why the hunter needs more heals, they use the word "more" but mean the word "amazing".

You're using conjecture and projecting.....NOBODY wants amazing heals...read the posts again...my godz...we simply want something akin to AR heal back...even if it's gated behind a melee skill...which is still a considerable obstacle...and made it anything but OP or amazing.

The comparison with other freep classes that possess good/amazing heals, is because EVERY OTHER CLASS has them, and those OTHER classes, and their self-healing abilities, are what the devs "try" to balance the creep classes with....which inevitably leads to hunters being further left behind and peeps like yourself that say "NOOOO...hunters don't need anything!!!"

Re-read that last paragraph as that's the biggest problem facing hunters...not hunters themselves, but every other class, and the creeps that are buffed to bang with them.

It is not even close to the best debuff class, as I can't even think of a real debuff it has besides the light oil one. The CC is good against all creeps but it is ridiculously exceptional against melee, I can understand people not seeing the higher end (in the hands of skilled players) benefits to some of the CC, but that is an issue with the player controlling the class, not the capabilities of the class being controlled.

Wrong...as i said in my last post. Hunter CC (slows, traps, stuns, Bards even) can and are easily negated in a multitude of ways by creep counters. I'm not going to waste my time listing them...again. If creeps are failing to counter, the failing is with the person controlling the creep class.

....The fact that you even are trying to pretend like THE SLOW isn't as OP as it is makes you one of these players, so forgive me if I really don't see a point in beating my head against a wall for the 100th time in the hope that the hunter community will learn to play their class.

You keep focusing on THE SLOW and avoiding all other aspects that have been mentioned as advantages that the hunter class has.

Here you focus on "THE SLOW"...then admonish others for focusing on said same slow.

Again, I've listed the numerous ways THE SLOW can be countered and it's only usefulness in PVP is against melee classes that have blown all their ways to negate it. With Sprint and Resilience on relatively short CDs...THE SLOWs usefullness becomes a limited factor.

Keep bangin' your head though....

...I'd like to hear why you don't think the HS debuff is OP.

It's on a 2 minute CD w/ an 8 sec debuff. Derp.

If you're referring to the Osg set bonus...that has nothing to do with this thread, or with the hunter class as a whole. It's only real usefulness comes when you're backed by healers, or doing 1v1s where creeps are gimping themselves.

Then there's all the stats and customization you lose by running that set. You essentially become a one-trick grouped pony.

Not to mention....set/gear bonuses don't make up for the fundamental weakness or comparable survivability of hunters versus other classes/creeps.

It has been a long time since I mained my reaver, and in all of that time hunter still haven't learnt how to use the advantages of their class as advantages. Back then it was players complaining that they lost their old 1 button PS spam and that they didn't want to play yellow because it didn't give them the PS spam back, now it's people insisting that they play red but try to play the class like they're in yellow or blue, and that when they lose it is because red needs buffs, not because their playstyle needs serious improvements.



I would be very interested to hear (or see) evidence that supports these claims of the hunter class needing the changes that you guys claim the class so drastically needs.

The evidence that supports the claims are that the vast majority of peeps playing this game fully realize, and have stated ad nauseam, that the hunter class is not on par with the other freep classes, which are what creeps are "balanced" with.

Nobody is asking for 1-shot ability, or spam attacks, or amazing heals...just viability on par with every other class.

I'm sure there are better hunters than me (I don't play as much as I used to), though I'm still in proly the top 10% of this game. I wholly understand the workings, abilities, and weaknesses of my class, i've been playing as my main since SoA, and never before has this class felt so weak and impotent going solo against every creep class. (ranked..not greenies)

It's become a running joke...and no more so than when peeps like you continue to maintain otherwise.

Btw....do you play a hunter? In pvp? Solo?

[Ethrildar]

Btw....do you play a hunter? In pvp? Solo?

The rest of your post is just bashing on all the utterly moronic things he's said and how much he's contradicted himself in this thread so I'll leave that out, but as far as I'm aware he's not even played the game in a couple of years (at least that's what I read him say at some stage). He has possibly revisited the game since? I'd assume not on a Hunter, certainly not on a geared one, more than likely an unloved creep.

[Constrictions]

Your edit of my quote was amusing as you listed the advantages the RK had in an extremely similar fashion. It's understandable if you weren't able to see that though, I've been through this sort of stuff with you before.

I was solely talking about the fire runekeeper except where I mentioned the ability to DPS while kiting. What specifically did I mention that fire runekeepers can't do?

This is almost exactly what people want, even if they are too scared to admit it. They continue to compare hunters to classes with good/amazing self heals, like RK, and use that class as an example of why the hunter needs more heals, they use the word "more" but mean the word "amazing".

It is not even close to the best debuff class, as I can't even think of a real debuff it has besides the light oil one. The CC is good against all creeps but it is ridiculously exceptional against melee, I can understand people not seeing the higher end (in the hands of skilled players) benefits to some of the CC, but that is an issue with the player controlling the class, not the capabilities of the class being controlled.

Best inc healing debuff(s)*

How familiar are you actually with trapper?
If you're not being targetted by classes that you can evade, the ability to keep things CC'd as a trapper specced hunter diminishes a ridiculous amount. The best thing is the in combat knockdown which lasts for 5 seconds. Otherwise you have a 7 second root triple trap (once per minute if not targetted), and two traps with a 20sec duration 30% slow. The traps are on a 45sec-1min cooldown. You're chucking out a minimal amount of snares and stuns if you're not being targetted (evades reduce trap cooldowns) and the entire time you're going to be doing less damage than a blue warden.

The other CC you have is the 7sec fear and the 7(?)s daze, which are on a 30 sec cd (fear) and a 2 minute cooldown(DS) when specced yellow.

If you are being targetted such that your evade is clocking down the trap timers, you have a 5sec knockdown approximately every 30 seconds, a triple 7sec root (provided no DR) every 30 seconds and two traps that slow approximately every 20 seconds. Additionally you drop a normal trap once every 5 seconds (assuming consistent evades of course).

Not bad if you're kiting two melee opponents, but in a group fight you're gimping yourself and your group by being in this line.

That is literally the way MMOs work, if a class has too much (for example) healing capability, it is not given more CC ability because it's damage capabilities are lower than another classes.

That has nothing to do with anything I said.

If it has to be proven to someone who plays the hunter class in a way that leaves no wiggle room for excuses, wouldn't it also follow that there is little reason to prove it as the person playing the hunter class is likely to simply state "lol nope, I found is correct, I also found you are wrong because my slow isn't ranked up on my LI"? The fact that you even are trying to pretend like the slow isn't as OP as it is makes you one of these players, so forgive me if I really don't see a point in beating my head against a wall for the 100th time in the hope that the hunter community will learn to play their class.

Uh?

Sure - maxed out strength stance slow is OP as all hell. I'm willing to admit that - I never said it wasn't OP, all I've commented on is it's limited utility and it's inability to make up for categorically different issues.
Are you willing to admit the strength of warg/reaver counters to any slows? Especially considering how blade toss is currently bugged (Would you even know that it's bugged)?

You keep focusing on the slow and avoiding all other aspects that have been mentioned as advantages that the hunter class has. I'd like to hear why you don't think the HS debuff is OP.

The slow is what you or spelunker have focused on, I'm just replying.

The HS debuff is ok. It gets resisted to a frequent degree. It's potent, but there's only so much any 8sec debuff can do. It's the lowest duration inc healing debuff that any class has ever had. Yes, 2 second difference. But I find that it has a level of significance attached to it, especially considering it is resistible and curable.

Old merc set debuff, I think that's a lot more potent. So long as you can keep an opponent at/below 70% you can keep it applied permanently.

now it's people insisting that they play red but try to play the class like they're in yellow or blue, and that when they lose it is because red needs buffs, not because their playstyle needs serious improvements.

That's a very vague statement. Yellow/blue specs don't allow a hunter to perform their only viable role - which, by the way, is only ok in the current meta (4th[?] on DPS potential out of all freep classes). The only thing they are good for in terms of dedicating your traits is to troll melee opponents. The hunters in this thread have been banging their heads 100 times on the wall saying this - yellow/blue specs are #### for the hunters only truly viable PvMP role, which is ok.

I would be very interested to hear (or see) evidence that supports these claims of the hunter class needing the changes that you guys claim the class so drastically needs.

Your perception of what hunters are saying the class needs is over-exaggerated.
There ought to be a bit of rebalancing regarding the way different skills do damage (E.g. Dev quickshot = half a crit heartseeker or 2x crit merciful shot), but it's not entirely necessary.. for the moment. Otherwise I actually liked brallegs post for the most part.

1.) Increase the root duration on low cut from initial of 5 to initial of 10 (similar to WLs shield bash). This would allow the hunter to slightly gain more room which would give them an opportunity to use a longer induction whether it being HS or PO. With diminishing returns this would hardly be game breaking. Or provide a larger grace period like 2 sec before the root is broke on damage in its current state.

2.) Eliminate the random luck from the RNG. Change the swift and true proc to decrease the induction of swiftbow by -20% for each use of QS with it maxing out at -100%. Let hunters be creative in their choice on when they use the skill (oh and if this isn't changed... make it so the -100% swiftbow cannot be interrupted...)

3.) Bring back swift stroke and parry as another defensive skill (not as important if animations are changed and root grace period changed)

4.) And since a wish list wouldn't be complete... fix the terrible animations of BH, IC, PP, and CoTH (all of which I personally have asked for and countless others have). Making the class more fluid will greatly improve its effectiveness.


Bralleg-1

I'd personally err towards a longer root and grace period, as well as fixing the damn relics so that it cures/prevents blade toss. The only thing I think I would disagree with is that I think PO needs something done with it. Not a massive revamp to make it overpowered, but something. I'm not entirely sure - I'm not an expert with the class, so my ability to suggest changes will be much lower than my ability to suggest changes for the warden, for example. But that's what I think at the moment.

[alleg]

Just attach the SS (instead of adding SS) buffs to endurance when dancing. The evade is already there :P
P/E opens up insta cast PO (scaled)
AR


As for dmg dealing capabilities..
Perhaps make blood arrow a much better trade off; costs morale but gives stacking dmg/crit multiple buff (hunter DR? :P )Not really going to break pve and pvp.
Better bonuses for camo.

They can add everything mentioned here and we would still not be on part with everything else. I get zerged most of the time so I won't even notice a lot of these changes.

If the consensus is something must be done with PO... and people are bound and determined to make it insta cast. Gate it behind a parry proc (and only a parry not evade) like AR was like Patriotpea suggested. This combined with well timed and coordinated stance dancing has the chance to improve the survivability and effectiveness (not saying it will make it perfectly balanced but its a step in the right direction).

Bralleg-1

[Ethrildar]

I kind of like the idea of making Blood-arrow much more readily available in blue-line, and making it a heal skill. Like a healer's arrow. I've always wanted a skill that I could use on an ally to heal them, a medicine arrow of sorts, it might not be a REAL arrow but some sort of light-type thing that puts a bit of a heal on them? Wouldn't be hard to do at all. If used on enemy it does X damage and heals you for X amount (maybe a 20 sec CD?) and costs 3 focus. If it's used on an ally it just heals X amount +100%.

This would fix the healing issue, take out the need to stop moving and stop all your DPS to self heal a little, it fits in a way with the lore and it's a cool enough concept, it also adds to group utility a little in all 3 lines if you trait for it. Exsanguinate proc should remain where it is in Blue-line, and the morale-cost of the Blood-arrow would be removed, obviously. It's damage isn't great enough to need a nerf even with the added heal, but it's cooldown would need an increase for sure.

Thoughts? A second self motivation in the game (insta-cast PO) just sounds awful, especially given POs animation lol.

[Thaelon]

You all need to stop putting such big posts, it makes me look worse when I reply to them all at the same time.

You're using conjecture and projecting.....NOBODY wants amazing heals...read the posts again...my godz...we simply want something akin to AR heal back...even if it's gated behind a melee skill...which is still a considerable obstacle...and made it anything but OP or amazing.

The comparison with other freep classes that possess good/amazing heals, is because EVERY OTHER CLASS has them, and those OTHER classes, and their self-healing abilities, are what the devs "try" to balance the creep classes with....which inevitably leads to hunters being further left behind and peeps like yourself that say "NOOOO...hunters don't need anything!!!"

Re-read that last paragraph as that's the biggest problem facing hunters...not hunters themselves, but every other class, and the creeps that are buffed to bang with them.

No, I'm calling you all on the truth, the truth that you don't seem willing to admit.

I really don't understand how you can be so stupid, I mean almost everytime I've seen you post you go off on a rant about how UP hunters are and how they drastically need buffs, yet I have listed the advantages the hunter has, and some of their advantages happen to be the best in the game.

I see, so the issue with hunters is that the other classes (of the same role) aren't able to bring more to the table than a hunter? The only class that brings even remotely similar amount of combat effectiveness to the table in a group setting is burg, even captains bring less to the dps side of things to a group than a hunter, tell me again what exactly the issue with the class is?

Wrong...as i said in my last post. Hunter CC (slows, traps, stuns, Bards even) can and are easily negated in a multitude of ways by creep counters. I'm not going to waste my time listing them...again. If creeps are failing to counter, the failing is with the person controlling the creep class.

Charge, resilience, fury pot, both immunity pots, a r15 brand, store brand and mord's brand give a total immunity time of 58s(stun), 58s(slow), and 63s(root). Fury pot, both immunity pots, all 3 brands, sprint and hips give a total immunity time of 45s. The vast majority of players will not have any of the brands mentioned, meaning that all the immunity times need to be reduced by 30s to be practical. Also, these immunties are calculated with the assumption that every single second you have an immunity up and are benefiting from it, in a realistic scenario these numbers would be even lower.

What you are claiming is that in around 30s for a reaver and 15s for a warg, they can kill a yellow hunter with capped mits and 50k+ morale? If the hunter was beckpedalling the entire time or just standing there accepting defeat, I can see this.

Here you focus on "THE SLOW"...then admonish others for focusing on said same slow.

Again, I've listed the numerous ways THE SLOW can be countered and it's only usefulness in PVP is against melee classes that have blown all their ways to negate it. With Sprint and Resilience on relatively short CDs...THE SLOWs usefullness becomes a limited factor.

Keep bangin' your head though....

I replied to it, I didn't continue to bring it up when it wasn't necessary and completely wrong to single it out as a part of my argument, which is what was done by Constrictions. He concentrated on the slow alone so that he didn't have to really counter anything else. He tried to make it seem as though our only point was the slow, and that he was right because the slow alone is apparently not enough to warrant not giving hunter more heals.

Do you even know what kiting is? That is a serious question. You can't simply run from the reaver if he pops resilience? Sure, he might bt you, but you do have bubble to remove it. I don't know man, maybe kiting is too advanced for you, maybe you haven't got past a skill rotation yet.

It's on a 2 minute CD w/ an 8 sec debuff. Derp.

If you're referring to the Osg set bonus...that has nothing to do with this thread, or with the hunter class as a whole. It's only real usefulness comes when you're backed by healers, or doing 1v1s where creeps are gimping themselves.

Then there's all the stats and customization you lose by running that set. You essentially become a one-trick grouped pony.

Not to mention....set/gear bonuses don't make up for the fundamental weakness or comparable survivability of hunters versus other classes/creeps.

Sometimes, I really ask myself why I even bother to continue posting to some people, this is one of those times. The Osgiliath set is the best set you can wear currently, cry about it all you want, it is the absolute best. Trying to claim that it is anything but amazingly OP is foolish, though that seems to be a recurring theme with you. Your last sentence is really too stupid for me to believe that it is a serious point, even coming from you.

The evidence that supports the claims are that the vast majority of peeps playing this game fully realize, and have stated ad nauseam, that the hunter class is not on par with the other freep classes, which are what creeps are "balanced" with.

Nobody is asking for 1-shot ability, or spam attacks, or amazing heals...just viability on par with every other class.

I'm sure there are better hunters than me (I don't play as much as I used to), though I'm still in proly the top 10% of this game. I wholly understand the workings, abilities, and weaknesses of my class, i've been playing as my main since SoA, and never before has this class felt so weak and impotent going solo against every creep class. (ranked..not greenies)

It's become a running joke...and no more so than when peeps like you continue to maintain otherwise.

Btw....do you play a hunter? In pvp? Solo?

Let me see if I have this right, the proof that the class needs buffs is because the majority of players who play hunter (who are seemingly the worst players of any class) say that it does? Because the bad players needs buffs to seem good (like they claim to anyone that will listen), the class should be buffed to cater to those players? Seems legit.

Oh, I'm 100% certain there are many better hunter than you and I doubt that you are even in the top 50% of hunters, judging by your posts about the class. Send Patriotpea a pm on the forums or find him on Arkenstone, ask him for tips on how to play the class you have managed to fail on since SoA.

I have and do on occasion, yes.

The rest of your post is just bashing on all the utterly moronic things he's said and how much he's contradicted himself in this thread so I'll leave that out, but as far as I'm aware he's not even played the game in a couple of years (at least that's what I read him say at some stage). He has possibly revisited the game since? I'd assume not on a Hunter, certainly not on a geared one, more than likely an unloved creep.

Show me where I said that, or admit you are lying and jumping on a bandwagon trying to make me look wrong, the main issue is that with these people, it will never happen.

I was solely talking about the fire runekeeper except where I mentioned the ability to DPS while kiting. What specifically did I mention that fire runekeepers can't do?

They have access to at least two instant cast CC effects, one of which grants a temporary 50% slow. They can use aote.
Perhaps the biggest point: They also do a very significant portion of their DPS to their opponent while they kite (red or yellow). Red-line hunters can't.

These two points, but mainly the last part in the first one. Argue semantics all you want, fire rks won't do much dps (compared to not) if they continue to kite around, just like red hunters, the only difference is that the frie rk is a dot class which inherently does damage over time.

Irony.

Best inc healing debuff(s)*

How familiar are you actually with trapper?
If you're not being targetted by classes that you can evade, the ability to keep things CC'd as a trapper specced hunter diminishes a ridiculous amount. The best thing is the in combat knockdown which lasts for 5 seconds. Otherwise you have a 7 second root triple trap (once per minute if not targetted), and two traps with a 20sec duration 30% slow. The traps are on a 45sec-1min cooldown. You're chucking out a minimal amount of snares and stuns if you're not being targetted (evades reduce trap cooldowns) and the entire time you're going to be doing less damage than a blue warden.

The other CC you have is the 7sec fear and the 7(?)s daze, which are on a 30 sec cd (fear) and a 2 minute cooldown(DS) when specced yellow.

If you are being targetted such that your evade is clocking down the trap timers, you have a 5sec knockdown approximately every 30 seconds, a triple 7sec root (provided no DR) every 30 seconds and two traps that slow approximately every 20 seconds. Additionally you drop a normal trap once every 5 seconds (assuming consistent evades of course).

Not bad if you're kiting two melee opponents, but in a group fight you're gimping yourself and your group by being in this line.

You just listed this as if it wasn't much, yet it is more than any other class in the game. Well done on proving my point for me.

That has nothing to do with anything I said.

Person 1[/B]: Z could use more X.
Person 2: Z has large Y.
Person 2: Therefore Z doesn't need more X
Person 1: ??? ###

Imagine my example, in this one.

Uh?

Sure - maxed out strength stance slow is OP as all hell. I'm willing to admit that - I never said it wasn't OP, all I've commented on is it's limited utility and it's inability to make up for categorically different issues.
Are you willing to admit the strength of warg/reaver counters to any slows? Especially considering how blade toss is currently bugged (Would you even know that it's bugged)?

Really? Are you not claiming that hunters need more survivability? I would think that the ability to avoid damage completely for x time is better than a small heal that you all pretend you are "campaigning" for. Reaver counters to slows are not even close to as effective as you are pretending, unless they are used on a bad player. Sprint, I can see, 20s of double run speed is a good counter to that slow alone, shame that they can be ccd through sprint and have sprint be "handled" and just spam slow afterwards. Reavers are a different story, sure resilience removes slows when it doesn't bug and have the slow go through it, but couple a non bugged resilience with bt and the reaver will catch you, but I'm interested to hear what you claim the reaver is going to do to keep the hunter in melee range for long enough to kill him once resilience drops off, hs isn't enough.

The slow is what you or spelunker have focused on, I'm just replying.

The HS debuff is ok. It gets resisted to a frequent degree. It's potent, but there's only so much any 8sec debuff can do. It's the lowest duration inc healing debuff that any class has ever had. Yes, 2 second difference. But I find that it has a level of significance attached to it, especially considering it is resistible and curable.

Old merc set debuff, I think that's a lot more potent. So long as you can keep an opponent at/below 70% you can keep it applied permanently.

I have listed many separate advantages the hunter has, you have no believable excuse for what you are doing.

Hs debuff>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>Merc debuff

I really have no idea why you think the merc set/debuff is worth it to use currently.

That's a very vague statement. Yellow/blue specs don't allow a hunter to perform their only viable role - which, by the way, is only ok in the current meta (4th[?] on DPS potential out of all freep classes). The only thing they are good for in terms of dedicating your traits is to troll melee opponents. The hunters in this thread have been banging their heads 100 times on the wall saying this - yellow/blue specs are #### for the hunters only truly viable PvMP role, which is ok.

Choose whether you want to talk about solo or group play, this continued switching when it suits your "argument" is boring. You claim to know about the hunter class and the game mechanics surrounding it, yet you seem unwilling to, when addressing a hunters group effectiveness, to couple their damage with their debuff potential. I will repeat myself, a red hunter bring more to a 6v6 than a red captain does in terms of damage (including debuffs and their own damage).

Your perception of what hunters are saying the class needs is over-exaggerated.

No it isn't, my perception is spot on, hunters just aren't willing to admit to it.

[Ethrildar]

You..........*16 page epic that I didn't waste my life reading*

You must be really, really bad at your creeps to be this desperate for Hunters not to get buffed. That's all there is left to say to you.

[Thaelon]

You must be really, really bad at your creeps to be this desperate for Hunters not to get buffed. That's all there is left to say to you.

Come out to the moors solo (I know that's a lot to ask, if it will make you feel better you can have 3 minis stand behind you while you get farmed), I can show you if you like. Try to avoid being in blue though, it will only make you look worse when you get farmed.

I am opposed to the posters I reply to because their claims are so stupid that I feel like I should share that with them. You should know this by now Equinoxx.

[Ensnared]

No it isn't, my perception is spot on, hunters just aren't willing to admit to it.

Admit what?

~Oromay

[Ethrildar]

Come out to the moors solo

Sure I'm on Ark, what's your name? What creep? Is this a 1v1 with my Hunter? One of the three Hunters I've soloed on over the years since Angmar? It's not fully re-geared yet, gives you time to get a creep ready I guess. And hey if you win I still get the last laugh, you'll have just beat a Hunter 1v1 and think you're good. HAHA.

I'm game

[Ethrildar]

Admit what?

~Oromay

He thinks all Hunters want to be OP as hell and have insane heals and DPS and CC and debuffs, but that nobody will say it. Basically he's left his tin hat at home and is acting out.

[Thaelon]

Admit what?

~Oromay

That the vast majority of Hunters (the one who cry about the class) fail and want buffs (which include heals that would allow them to faceroll) so they don't appear so bad at the game.

Sure I'm on Ark, what's your name? What creep? Is this a 1v1 with my Hunter? One of the three Hunters I've soloed on over the years since Angmar? It's not fully re-geared yet, gives you time to get a creep ready I guess. And hey if you win I still get the last laugh, you'll have just beat a Hunter 1v1 and think you're good. HAHA.

I'm game

Why are you laughing? I'm calling you out, just like I did on bw. The bw one turned out very bad for you, why would you imagine that this one would be any different? The call out wasn't exclusive to hunter, in fact I 100% expected you to come out on your 50k warden in shield line, or red line with double NS. I 100% expected to link ca afterwards and have it show me dong about 200k damage to you to kill you and you doing around 12k to me. Feel free to come on hunter though, after reading your views on the class I have no doubt that you are unable to perform on the class well enough to beat me.

He thinks all Hunters want to be OP as hell and have insane heals and DPS and CC and debuffs, but that nobody will say it. Basically he's left his tin hat at home and is acting out.

The majority do, even though you have grossly over-exaggerated it. Basically you seem mad because you seemingly fail at hunter but don't want to admit it.

[Intolerance]

...moronic rambling...

We're all wondering the same thing here Warden....is it deliberate...or just something that comes natural to you?

You must be really, really bad at your creeps to be this desperate for Hunters not to get buffed. That's all there is left to say to you.

I believe this to be the case as well.

Unless they post something close to coherent common sense, no more conversation.

[Ensnared]

That the vast majority of Hunters (the one who cry about the class) fail and want buffs (which include heals that would allow them to faceroll) so they don't appear so bad at the game.

Healing requests is a knee jerk reaction, typical Turbine logic which has ruined Lotro since RoI. I could suggest a reasonable solution but the problem is: even if someone handed Turbine a goose that laid golden eggs, they'd mince the goose for meat pies instead of selling the golden eggs.

Objectively speaking Hunters had the ability to be ezmode when essence came out, and during these 'fun times'(a) Hunters didnt challenge themselves but opted for the path of least resistance. Therefore it's not surprising people feel it's hopeless when the bar is raised.
(a)Hunters I observed from three servers: E, Bw and Arkenwine between HD to U17.

99% of the Hunters I observed never challenged a Creep healer or they would sit at GG and 1v1. Either way they never did anything, so if Hunters struggle atm I see little difference.
Oh unless we're talking about players struggling atm bc they used to wear the instant HS set killing to kill newbies and thought it was based on raw skill? Well my advice is: understand that balance in Lotro is based around a pendulum.

[Ensnared]

./dribble

Do you have any experience with how a hunter competes with a defiler in this kind of situation? (Ever heard that theory without data is dead?)
It takes approximately 15 seconds to kill a defiler if you sustain the initial DPS counter shown on combat analysis if they use no heals whatsoever. A defilers single target HPS is what, 4k?
The first 10 seconds is major and is usually mitigated by the heartseeker debuff, but you will usually have at least 10 more seconds required to actually kill the defiler in question - more if they are capable in managing their own self healing. The success of this is based on a reliance on critical hits. Experiencing faults in that, especially in the first 15 seconds, and your chances of success will dwindle rapidly. Assuming the success of this, you're still at risk of the multitude of environmental factors that you would be totally oblivious to as a result of playing a warg (if you still do).

Some quick facts
The actual damage difference between 50k and 60k mastery on a hunter in regards to critical hit damage with heartseeker or upshot against the average creep is ~1000 damage. That is the same difference between the old -1900 breachfinders and the -4k breach finders. Regarding base damage, the difference is significantly thinner.
What is a effect of 10k mastery/3-4k critical damage in a 6 second burst rotation? Is that going to cost you a win or loss? Maybe - depends on what you're trading off for it.

Is this a decent trade-off?
A relatively permanent, uncurable, irresistible 10sec duration -50% inc healing debuff, useable from 70% morale - which doesn't affect your outgoing damage rotation beyond two mere weapon swap animations (You know, if you feel you have to swap out for a 10sec merc shot cooldown - it's not really necessary).

The overall outgoing raw damage won't be very different if I was to use the 4-set osgiliath bonus and 2 audacity pieces. I know because I've tested it. What it probably means is I don't have to time a cooldown or an induction or use a more elaborate kiting/rotation scheme to fire it. Two/three heartseekers in one fight - pretty stupid. Maybe you could liken it to you using third age weapons because wardens have been so ####ed. In this case, the addition of the armour was an unnecessary overcompensation.

---------------

Most people's 'expert opinions' on the hunter (or anything for that matter) reminds me of the forensic witness in the Oscar Pistorius trial.

https://youtu.be/hz6x28bLEsk?t=67

Do you play a hunter? Have you played a hunter? Have you mained a hunter? Have you mained it to the point of being able to have any sort of mastery in this topic? If not - how much formal instruction have you received from anyone who could be said to remotely meet any of those?
As we know, there's a great deal of insolence and ignorance in the forums - among popular posters, it's an ignorance towards how far a knowledge of skill tooltips, game systems and experience as an opponent/ally will lead to valid arguments in concrete applications regarding specific rotations, and other instances

It's not a crime to not be an expert, and pay attention Not being an expert doesn't mean you have nothing valuable to say. But it severely limits the value of any contribution you can make.
Most people that think they have mostly valid opinions regarding any given thing relative to the way game changes have impacted the experience of that topic are being totally moronic because they have minimal experience in most areas they comment on. It's why you won't find me commenting on specifics of things such as loremaster skills/rotations unless I feel it is being ignored. I know the skills, I know a bit about the rotations, know about fighting a multitude of them, a bit less about animations. Even then, I'm happy to defer to those with actual expertise, provided they're being reasonable because even though I can feel like I totally nail the theory crafting behind the loremaster, I haven't played one past level 50 - so my opinion/facts have the potential to become disreputable very quickly.

I now play a hunter. I have played a hunter some times previously. I have direct experience behind the controls of a very large amount of what I've talked about in this post.
But I'm not an 'expert' on what I'm talking about because I'm not practised in enough of the caveats specific to the class or the topic. I've not tested all the possible options, even though I have done a decent sample across different conditions and era's. Having the speculative theory crafting perfected - even with a large sample - won't make me an expert either.
What it does mean is that, in all probability, I'm going to be better grounded than someone who doesn't have any of this practice, participated in any of this testing or have any direct experience behind the controls of the hunter - even if they are well versed in skill tooltips, game systems and a large amount of experience as an opponent/ally of the class in question - by virtue of the fact I've depressingly played this game since open beta, I'm more than likely going to have a comparable toolkit on all these prerequisites for 'expert entitlement'.

I might have (or have had) and expertise on the warden and several other classes. But just because I'm playing the same game with the same systems with the same people blah blah blah - doesn't mean #### when I swap to another class, even if I succeed often. Doesn't have to mean I am playing well, or know ####ing anything apart from the theory (even if it is decently grounded). If I act like I know it all, have expertise in area's I don't really etc etc, I'm just a fat headed egocentric ########, like all the rest.

Talking with expertise on wider game systems and wider area's is fine, but the same attitude doesn't have legs to stand on in many other places. Like I said - I'm not an expert on this topic! But your last post made it insanely obvious that you're on the verge of making this mistake Desolates.

Desolates, I advice you go and buy this cushion.
Perfect for pain and pressure relief for haemorrhoids, hip bursitis, and general coccyx pain. Provides comfort and gentle support as an office chair seat cushion. Package Includes: 1x Seat Cushion.

[Constrictions]

These two points, but mainly the last part in the first one. Argue semantics all you want, fire rks won't do much dps (compared to not) if they continue to kite around, just like red hunters, the only difference is that the frie rk is a dot class which inherently does damage over time.

It might be small, but the damage a fire runekeeper can do while kiting is significant - not even in terms of comapring between a hunter and rk.
If I applied 4 bleeds to a warg on my warden, I could kite away and let it try to attack me and I will kill it no problem. The DoT damage from runekeepers is not likely to be half as potent. Maybe not even 1/4, but that doesn't mean it's not significant. When you compare it to the way a hunter does damage simply by raw concept, it is an amicable advantage even if it is small. The other advantages in conjunction work to compound the DoT's effectiveness further. By merit of the way the runekeepers advantages (or counters) work with each other, it aids overall performance.

You just listed this as if it wasn't much, yet it is more than any other class in the game. Well done on proving my point for me.

I wrote it according to its actual potency in practical scenarios.
Your response is not addressing anything in regards to the difference between 1) trappers potency while being targeted by evadable attacks versus 2) not being targeted at all. If you were wanting a valid retort to what I said, then that's a pretty pivotal thing to touch on.

Imagine my example, in this one.

Really? Are you not claiming that hunters need more survivability? I would think that the ability to avoid damage completely for x time is better than a small heal that you all pretend you are "campaigning" for. [useless fluff] Sprint, I can see, 20s of double run speed is a good counter to that slow alone, shame that they can be ccd through sprint and have sprint be "handled" and just spam slow afterwards. Reavers are a different story, sure resilience removes slows when it doesn't bug and have the slow go through it, but couple a non bugged resilience with bt and the reaver will catch you, but I'm interested to hear what you claim the reaver is going to do to keep the hunter in melee range for long enough to kill him once resilience drops off, hs isn't enough.

Does claiming a need for more survivability necessarily mean I am advocating for one particular type of survivability in a particular kind of way at a particular potency?
Drop your preconceptions man. You have just flat out ignored where I quoted Bralleg.

Resilience is not bugging out for anyone nearly enough for you to speak as though it could be a 50/50 whether or not it does. What's he going to do to keep in melee range? We're talking, on average, 20-25k morale with ~40% mits. A tank traited reaver is going to burn that in approximately 30 seconds without hindrance? Or is that too slow for average/decent players? You tell me. I can say from my experience that the hunter has enough damage to burn it back assuming perfect kiting and a standard crit rate, so long as there's no use of AtO or a pot. One use of either ought to cause a win for the reaver hands down.

What CC is the hunter going to use to negate a wargs sprint for 20 seconds? A 6 second fear that doesn't actually prevent him from moving closer to you? What if the warg pots it anyway? A 4 second daze (DS)? A 2 second daze (DB)? A 2sec daze (CoTh)? If the warg is 40m away at the time of using sprint, thats 4-5 second of sprint used before he's on top of you. There's at least ~10 seconds of time after available CC that he's going to be able to damage you with its duration in effect.
He could also save sprint for after he's already on top of you if he believes in patience and simply uses disappear to negate your ranged advantage entirely. Throw in a pre-pot and thats an additional 10 seconds of free time the warg has to be on top of you.

I have listed many separate advantages the hunter has, you have no believable excuse for what you are doing.

Hs debuff>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>Merc debuff

I really have no idea why you think the merc set/debuff is worth it to use currently.

Because of its consistency and availability...?

Choose whether you want to talk about solo or group play, this continued switching when it suits your "argument" is boring. You claim to know about the hunter class and the game mechanics surrounding it, yet you seem unwilling to, when addressing a hunters group effectiveness, to couple their damage with their debuff potential. I will repeat myself, a red hunter bring more to a 6v6 than a red captain does in terms of damage (including debuffs and their own damage).

Naturally anyone any of us could debate with will be fluid with their examples - if a concrete statement of 'lets only talk of group play' or 'solo play' isn't put down at the beginning, then the back and forth of the debate will naturally go between them by both parties. If you want to focus on one, which are you wanting to talk about specifically?

No it isn't, my perception is spot on, hunters just aren't willing to admit to it.

This wouldn't be the first time you're claiming a god-eye.

I'm sure you are reminded frequently; your purely intuitive judgement, which allows you to know the thoughts and feelings of others better than they themselves, is nothing more than a set of biased preconceptions.

[Giliodor]

This thread needs more tryhards.

[spelunker]

...

Too long of a post to reply from a phone, after the weekend!

...

http://www.samhsa.gov/

[Thaelon]

It might be small, but the damage a fire runekeeper can do while kiting is significant - not even in terms of comapring between a hunter and rk.
If I applied 4 bleeds to a warg on my warden, I could kite away and let it try to attack me and I will kill it no problem. The DoT damage from runekeepers is not likely to be half as potent. Maybe not even 1/4, but that doesn't mean it's not significant. When you compare it to the way a hunter does damage simply by raw concept, it is an amicable advantage even if it is small. The other advantages in conjunction work to compound the DoT's effectiveness further. By merit of the way the runekeepers advantages (or counters) work with each other, it aids overall performance.

I'm willing to bet that a kiting fire rk would need a certain amount (about 10s) of "induction time" to even keep up with a red hunter kiting the same rhythm. What I mean is that if they both kited for 5s, stopped and inducted for 5s and stuck to that rhythm, a red hunter would come out on top, but if they stopped to induct for another 5s, the fire rk would start to pull ahead.

I wrote it according to its actual potency in practical scenarios.
Your response is not addressing anything in regards to the difference between 1) trappers potency while being targeted by evadable attacks versus 2) not being targeted at all. If you were wanting a valid retort to what I said, then that's a pretty pivotal thing to touch on.

You're trying to straw-man, I said that the class had undoubtedly the best cc to counter melee in the game, your response is that if you can't evade that cc is of reduced potency? Even at reduced potency it is still the best.

Does claiming a need for more survivability necessarily mean I am advocating for one particular type of survivability in a particular kind of way at a particular potency?
Drop your preconceptions man. You have just flat out ignored where I quoted Bralleg.

You really like to attempt to straw-man don't you? You are deliberately trying to be extremely vague on points you know you have no hope of winning, it is too obvious. To disprove your straw-man though, (real) survivability comes in 3 forms:
1) Mitigations. This includes skills that provide x% incoming damage.
2) Healing. All forms of healing including regen buffs.
3) CC. All buffs to a classes ability to avoid damage completely.

With the hunter class being extremely capable on 2 and 3, what sort of a survivability buff would you advocate for if you won't advocate for more heals? Yes, I have also straw-manned you here, assuming you mean you aren't advocating for heals and trying to counter that, but this straw-man also provides you with a choice, either admit that you are advocating for more heals, or try to argue how hunter mits or CC capabilities aren't as good as claimed.

Resilience is not bugging out for anyone nearly enough for you to speak as though it could be a 50/50 whether or not it does. What's he going to do to keep in melee range? We're talking, on average, 20-25k morale with ~40% mits. A tank traited reaver is going to burn that in approximately 30 seconds without hindrance? Or is that too slow for average/decent players? You tell me. I can say from my experience that the hunter has enough damage to burn it back assuming perfect kiting and a standard crit rate, so long as there's no use of AtO or a pot. One use of either ought to cause a win for the reaver hands down.

What CC is the hunter going to use to negate a wargs sprint for 20 seconds? A 6 second fear that doesn't actually prevent him from moving closer to you? What if the warg pots it anyway? A 4 second daze (DS)? A 2 second daze (DB)? A 2sec daze (CoTh)? If the warg is 40m away at the time of using sprint, thats 4-5 second of sprint used before he's on top of you. There's at least ~10 seconds of time after available CC that he's going to be able to damage you with its duration in effect.
He could also save sprint for after he's already on top of you if he believes in patience and simply uses disappear to negate your ranged advantage entirely. Throw in a pre-pot and thats an additional 10 seconds of free time the warg has to be on top of you.

I got on my reaver the other day for an hour or two, almost every use of resilience bugged (granted, almost every time it bugged I was being focused by at least 4 freeps), I was slowed through it. I also remember it bugging a lot more than you are trying to make out. 20-25k morale? Wow. Just wow. How bad at gearing do you have to be to actually go to the moors with a 20-25k morale hunter? I am actually impressed Constrictions, you play a 20-25k morale hunter and yet you are here, on these forums attempting to defend buffs that you claim the class needs. Keep up the good fight son.

So in this scenario you are just standing out of camo in the middle of nowhere waiting for the warg to catch you? Or is the hypothetical hunter smart enough to start in camo? Either way, yellow line cc is enough to almost negate a wargs sprint, mostly because when a warg uses sprint it is in response to not being able to be in melee range, or because they know they won't be able to sustain it soon. This means that the warg would had to have held on to both of his cc pots (root/stun) for this moment and not used them before he hit sprint, in order to hit the hunter with more than one ability.

Because of its consistency and availability...?

Because it not only adds far more dps to the hunter than the merc set, but it also adds far more (desirable) stats than the merc set. If you use the merc set currently, I'm almost willing to bet that it plays a massive part in why you think the class needs buffs.

Naturally anyone any of us could debate with will be fluid with their examples - if a concrete statement of 'lets only talk of group play' or 'solo play' isn't put down at the beginning, then the back and forth of the debate will naturally go between them by both parties. If you want to focus on one, which are you wanting to talk about specifically?

I don't want to focus on one, but you are using the difference between them as a crutch. For example, when I talk about using yellow or blue line, you refer to grouping to strengthen your argument, when I talk about the group benefits of a grouping hunter, you refer to solo play to strengthen your argument. My point is that to create an argument about whether or not the class needs buffs, you need to be able to objectively look at the class overall and judge on that, of course avoiding the fact that Turbine "attempt" to balance the moors around group play.

This wouldn't be the first time you're claiming a god-eye.

I'm sure you are reminded frequently; your purely intuitive judgement, which allows you to know the thoughts and feelings of others better than they themselves, is nothing more than a set of biased preconceptions.

Yet how can you speak for anyone but yourself? You say I have "biased preconceptions", but aren't you doing almost the same thing I am? Claiming something without any real evidence other than your own opinion, do you remember when I posted the word "Irony" to you earlier in this thread? Did you think about it? Or do you not know what it means?

This thread needs more tryhards.

It just got another.

[infinitewhimsy]

Every class having self healing is one of the things fundamentally wrong with Lotro.

You're using conjecture and projecting.....NOBODY wants amazing heals...read the posts again...my godz...we simply want something akin to AR heal back.

The Agile Rejoinder heal was abject garbage. Haha...

[Ethrildar]

The Agile Rejoinder heal was abject garbage. Haha...

AR heal was awesome, in a 1v1 you could use it multiple times per fight and it'd give you just the edge you needed to stay up versus melees that otherwise you'd be unable to finish off. It was a great skill and, honestly, pretty well thought-out, melee, parry gated, small-medium heal on a short-ish CD. If they brought exactly the same skill back and just scaled the heal up to current morale/creep DPS levels, the class would benefit a lot.

[Intolerance]

Every class having self healing is one of the things fundamentally wrong with Lotro.



The Agile Rejoinder heal was abject garbage. Haha...

Are you sure you want to remove infinitewhimsy from your ignore list?

Indeed...just long enough to respond to more garbage....

The AR heal was a wonderful shining light in the darkness that was the hunters ability to stay alive long enough to finish a fight.

When we finally got this ability, it helped keep us on par with the strengthening creep classes (Wrath, Flayer, GetAGrip, etc) and at no other time do I think hunters were more balanced and equipped to bang solo with every class.

You'd win some, lose some, but almost every fight, against every class, was fun, challenging....and you stood a chance.

AR heal was awesome, in a 1v1 you could use it multiple times per fight and it'd give you just the edge you needed to stay up versus melees that otherwise you'd be unable to finish off. It was a great skill and, honestly, pretty well thought-out, melee, parry gated, small-medium heal on a short-ish CD. If they brought exactly the same skill back and just scaled the heal up to current morale/creep DPS levels, the class would benefit a lot.

Always liked you Eq...

Another great example of laying down the facts.

I'll wax nostalgic for a sec to give another example to the nay-sayers.

I remember shortly after xferring to BW and encountering Pounces solo for the first time...

We banged it out down below lugs ( I think he was ganking peeps coming back from the rez).

It was an awesome fight, and I managed to pull off the win, albeit a very close one.

I was soon confronted by him though ( iirc it was on the BW pvp boards).

He said his CA showed him doing X amount of damage to me, and with my morale pool only being Y, how was I still alive?

I was accused of morale potting (store), which was categorically untrue.

When I broke down the math and showed how my morale pool, standard morale pot, and the 5-6 AR heal responses were enough to get me the nod, the reality set in.

He is/was an awesome Warg...I am/was pretty good at solo hunting. (I despise most groups as ez mode button mashing low skill lag fests)

The absolute deciding factor in the fight was the heals from Agile Rejoinder.

Today, I would be destroyed in no short order.

Why?

[Giliodor]

It just got another.

How can you be a tryhard at a game you don't even play?

It's extremely amusing to watch the people who like to think of themselves as "good hunters" advocate against buffing the class, just so that they appear as l33t hunters.

[infinitewhimsy]

AR heal was awesome, in a 1v1 you could use it multiple times per fight and it'd give you just the edge you needed to stay up versus melees that otherwise you'd be unable to finish off. It was a great skill and, honestly, pretty well thought-out, melee, parry gated, small-medium heal on a short-ish CD. If they brought exactly the same skill back and just scaled the heal up to current morale/creep DPS levels, the class would benefit a lot.

Well, you're utterly wrong. It wasn't even worth the animation over any other actually useful skill, and was a waste of a legacy.