A better heal

[Thaelon]

I invite any of you who've engaged in the always pointless act of arguing with Thaelon to examine his history on these forums. If you do you'll discover that the self proclaimed distinguished champion of reason and logic, who has said multiple times that no one can outwit him on these forums, a statement in itself that makes him the most overt narcissist you might ever come across (among other equally overt statements he's made, like the perpetual assertion that he is at the same time the best player this game has ever seen), refuses to procure any proof or evidence of any of the ridiculous positions that he maintains, and ironically demands proof from the very people he is arguing against, behavior that on the contrary I believe makes you the champion of hypocrisy and logical fallacy.

Why you continue to embarrass yourself at every turn by asserting things without having an even sophomoric authority on the subject, such as the hunter class, is not so much a mystery as it is evidence that your presence on these forums is only contrarian, as you yourself have said that you delight in engaging in arguments with others and take a sadistic pleasure in "winning arguments" despite having more holes in every argument you make than a wheel of swiss.

I warned you, you didn't listen.


Go ahead, examine my history, you will find countless failures (like Illydros), all crying about how things in the game are unfair, it's too difficult, etc. Some of these same failures can be found in this thread, crying about the hunter class, even after much proof has been shown on the subject, disproving their claims of the class being UP. These failures won't accept the proof though, because it would mean accepting the fact that they are bad at such an easy game, which would be hard for such bad players to do. If you do examine my history you will also find that I only "demand" proof from people who do the same to me, to further point out the irony of their "demanding" proof. In all matters, my proof is in the game, if you are able to see it, if you aren't, no matter, you are irrelevant anyway.

You have tried to appear so smart, yet you continue to display massive amounts of irony throughout this, like, for example, your claim that I basically have no idea what I'm talking about when it comes to the hunter class because I don't play hunter, yet how could you know I don't play hunter for sure? I think that this is an example of you "asserting things without having an even sophomoric authority on the subject", don't you?

I did tell you that I enjoy embarrassing people, in-game or out, it was the same night you basically begged for my forgiveness and for me not to call you out anymore. The real kicker is that if there were as many holes as you claim, and you were able to see them all, wouldn't it also follow that you could call them out and embarrass me in any of our encounters? Why then, have you failed at every turn, even being defeated enough to basically beg my forgiveness?

One might ask for Thaelon to prove that a hunter can blow up a BA and a spider or any class for that matter in 10-15 seconds, but you would never get any such proof. Apparently in the lotro he plays, Moving target and reflect don't exist, nor do morale pots or uruk heal or burrow. That's the swiss cheese I'm talking about.

Just for you failures, I'm going to provide a great post, full of details and maths. I am currently in the process of making it. I look forward to the excuses given by you failures as to why the facts are wrong.


EDIT:

So first, let's take a look at the stat difference between the two sets:
HS Set

• 1440 agi
• 270 vit
• 180 fate
• 1966 morale
• 4302 crit
• 12304 phys mast
• 2450 finesse
• 2880 parry
• 4320 evade
• 540 resist
• 180 tact mit
• 720 icpr
• (-3s swift bow cd)
• (HS reset)

Merc Set

• 820 agi
• 684 vit
• 2052 morale
• 2510 crit
• 9018 phys mast
• 2343 finesse
• 1640 parry
• 2460 evade
• 1368 resist
• 12 audacity
• (3540 crit d)
• (Merc debuff)

I already added the stat contributions from the main stats into the secondary stats in the above statistical comparisons and you can clearly see that the HS set comes out far ahead in terms of the stats it gives, both in terms of the important stats (crit/finesse/pm) and the lesser ones (p/e/icpr).

Now for the bursts you failure wanted:

• Defiler-http://i.imgur.com/H3Q33DX.jpg
• Spider-http://i.imgur.com/tqcUTas.jpg
• Reaver-http://i.imgur.com/37aToCj.jpg
• Warg-http://i.imgur.com/jsL2TtS.jpg

If after this post you failures aren't convinced, I really don't know how else I can explain to you that you are bad.

[Ensnared]

I warned you, you didn't listen.


Go ahead, examine my history, you will find countless failures (like Illydros), all crying about how things in the game are unfair, it's too difficult, etc. Some of these same failures can be found in this thread, crying about the hunter class, even after much proof has been shown on the subject, disproving their claims of the class being UP. These failures won't accept the proof though, because it would mean accepting the fact that they are bad at such an easy game, which would be hard for such bad players to do. If you do examine my history you will also find that I only "demand" proof from people who do the same to me, to further point out the irony of their "demanding" proof. In all matters, my proof is in the game, if you are able to see it, if you aren't, no matter, you are irrelevant anyway.

You have tried to appear so smart, yet you continue to display massive amounts of irony throughout this, like, for example, your claim that I basically have no idea what I'm talking about when it comes to the hunter class because I don't play hunter, yet how could you know I don't play hunter for sure? I think that this is an example of you "asserting things without having an even sophomoric authority on the subject", don't you?

I did tell you that I enjoy embarrassing people, in-game or out, it was the same night you basically begged for my forgiveness and for me not to call you out anymore. The real kicker is that if there were as many holes as you claim, and you were able to see them all, wouldn't it also follow that you could call them out and embarrass me in any of our encounters? Why then, have you failed at every turn, even being defeated enough to basically beg my forgiveness?

Just for you failures, I'm going to provide a great post, full of details and maths. I am currently in the process of making it. I look forward to the excuses given by you failures as to why the facts are wrong.


EDIT:

So first, let's take a look at the stat difference between the two sets:
HS Set

• 1440 agi
• 270 vit
• 180 fate
• 1966 morale
• 4302 crit
• 12304 phys mast
• 2450 finesse
• 2880 parry
• 4320 evade
• 540 resist
• 180 tact mit
• 720 icpr
• (-3s swift bow cd)
• (HS reset)

Merc Set

• 820 agi
• 684 vit
• 2052 morale
• 2510 crit
• 9018 phys mast
• 2343 finesse
• 1640 parry
• 2460 evade
• 1368 resist
• 12 audacity
• (3540 crit d)
• (Merc debuff)

I already added the stat contributions from the main stats into the secondary stats in the above statistical comparisons and you can clearly see that the HS set comes out far ahead in terms of the stats it gives, both in terms of the important stats (crit/finesse/pm) and the lesser ones (p/e/icpr).

Now for the bursts you failure wanted:

• Defiler-http://i.imgur.com/H3Q33DX.jpg
• Spider-http://i.imgur.com/tqcUTas.jpg
• Reaver-http://i.imgur.com/37aToCj.jpg
• Warg-http://i.imgur.com/jsL2TtS.jpg

If after this post you failures aren't convinced, I really don't know how else I can explain to you that you are bad.

Nice scarecrow you've got there, too bad it's not relevant.
*When you scream from high heaven that Merciful set is utterly useless, you think posting damage from another set proves anything? Logic = fail.

I ran around yesterday with my old set and comfortably challenged every healer, and thats the point it's still usable: you just too arrogant to accept any counter statement unless its smells like your own farts. Merciful set will always be useful, its just too bad I really dislike it's replacement.

You really grasped at straws by posting such a stinking red herring though, you sound pretty desperate to clear you name.

[Thaelon]

Nice scarecrow you've got there, too bad it's not relevant.
*When you scream from high heaven that Merciful set is utterly useless, you think posting damage from another set proves anything? Logic = fail.

I ran around yesterday with my old set and comfortably challenged every healer, and thats the point it's still usable: you just too arrogant to accept any counter statement unless its smells like your own farts. Merciful set will always be useful, its just too bad I really dislike it's replacement.

You really grasped at straws by posting such a stinking red herring though, you sound pretty desperate to clear you name.

lolwut? I said merc set is useless and that the HS is better, both in terms of stats and combat effectiveness, you are now trying to tell me that by proving that, I'm not actually proving it and that because you ran around with the set on all day, it must be good. Go back and reread my DN burg armour set question.

Labeling my proof as a "stinking red herring" or a "scarecrow" does not make my proof any less true. All it does is further prove my point that regardless of how much proof is given to you or how well it is explained, you will never stop being bad at the game. That also leads me to my next point, I was told that you transferred to Arkenstone, if that is true, I will give you 10k gold (or stop posting on these forums/delete my acc, whichever you think sounds better to you) if you can "challenge" my healer. By "challenge" I mean keep me below 80% health for longer than 30s, I will stand still and won't cc you at all.

Do you accept?

[spelunker]

Nice scarecrow you've got there, too bad it's not relevant.
*When you scream from high heaven that Merciful set is utterly useless, you think posting damage from another set proves anything? Logic = fail.

I ran around yesterday with my old set and comfortably challenged every healer, and thats the point it's still usable: you just too arrogant to accept any counter statement unless its smells like your own farts. Merciful set will always be useful, its just too bad I really dislike it's replacement.

You really grasped at straws by posting such a stinking red herring though, you sound pretty desperate to clear you name.

what? This would only be a failure in logic if you posted comparable damage when using the merciful set. Knowing the parameters of the test would be useful in a comparison, but the claim Constrictions was making that you'd have to maintain the dps from the initial burst of a camo-gank for upwards for 20s to kill a defiler who wasn't self-healing seems a bit off, at the least (I'll get to his post this evening). Think of it as a challenge, Orak. Go ahead and post some parses where you did equivalent damage with the merc set. The debuff portion of the set is clearly matched by the HS set, since HS is being applied often enough for the debuff to remain up fulltime, so you must be selecting the set because it's damage is comparable, right?

Non-Imbued LIs are still usable (I'll bet you were 'challenging' healers with those before ILIs came out), does this mean your next claim will be that Imbuing is a waste as well? I thought the claim was that the HS set is inferior to the Merc set, not that the merc set wasn't usable? If we're going by the standard that something other than the HS set is inferior, but still usable, I have some quest reward gear I'd like to throw into the debate for consideration, since I've found it quite usable.

[Thaelon]

Non-Imbued LIs are still usable (I'll bet you were 'challenging' healers with those before ILIs came out), does this mean your next claim will be that Imbuing is a waste as well? I thought the claim was that the HS set is inferior to the Merc set, not that the merc set wasn't usable? If we're going by the standard that something other than the HS set is inferior, but still usable, I have some quest reward gear I'd like to throw into the debate for consideration, since I've found it quite usable.

This actually made me lol. Thanks for the laughs Desolates.

[Ensnared]

I said merc set is useless and that the HS is better, both in terms of stats and combat effectiveness, you are now trying to tell me that by proving that, I'm not actually proving it and that because you ran around with the set on all day, it must be good. Go back and reread my DN burg armour set question.

Labeling my proof as a "stinking red herring" or a "scarecrow" does not make my proof any less true. All it does is further prove my point that regardless of how much proof is given to you or how well it is explained, you will never stop being bad at the game. That also leads me to my next point, I was told that you transferred to Arkenstone, if that is true, I will give you 10k gold (or stop posting on these forums/delete my acc, whichever you think sounds better to you) if you can "challenge" my healer. By "challenge" I mean keep me below 80% health for longer than 30s, I will stand still and won't cc you at all.

You havent proven anything, only shown how the stat difference and damage output which I assume is Heartseeker set. This doesn't prove Merciful set is useless, are you constipated in the head?

Useless
not fulfilling or not expected to achieve the intended purpose or desired outcome.

Never failed me when I needed to kill Sniz, Tyrannus, Bizar, Fath, Epcot, Trooper.
The burdorn of proof is too heavy for you, give up already.

You're struggling I can tell. You resort to ego contests for distractions.

[Thaelon]

You havent proven anything, only shown how the stat difference and damage output which I assume is Heartseeker set. This doesn't prove Merciful set is useless, are you constipated in the head?

I agree. I haven't proven anything except that the HS set is better. Sometimes I do wonder if there is something wrong with my reading or comprehension ability, because when I read some of the things failures like you put on these forums, I just didn't know there were people that stupid in the world.

Useless
not fulfilling or not expected to achieve the intended purpose or desired outcome.

Never failed me when I needed to kill Sniz, Tyrannus, Bizar, Fath, Epcot, Trooper.

Allow me to correct myself, the merc set is only useful to players who are so stupid that they don't (or won't) wear the HS set. Allow me to show you exactly what you said however, before you dig yourself a deeper hole by attempting to appear to win on a technicality:

Because it not only adds far more dps to the hunter than the merc set, but it also adds far more (desirable) stats than the merc set.

You're wrong because I say so: because my Hunters career is based around killing healers alone since HD. What about you?
I ranked to 12.5 killing healers since HD.

So which is it? Am I wrong? Or will you admit that the merc set is inferior?

You're struggling I can tell. You resort to ego contests for distractions.

I simply offered you a chance to back up what you are saying, to provide proof to support your claims other than "I'm right because I said I am and I ranked by killing healers", if you are too scared to take it, that's fine, but don't pretend that you aren't, be a man and admit that you know that if you take me up on my offer, you will be embarrassed, and you know it.

[Ensnared]

So I guess it means im pretty good, since I play with two handicaps and still get results, cool.

I agree. I haven't proven anything except that the HS set is better.

Because you havent provided data from both sets ill always win this argument. This' the exact reason why I started to criticized your blanket absolute statements without relative data. Unlike you I comment from experience and dont resort to insult to make myself look greater. You still have quiet a burden on your shoulders to prove just how superior you are.

Allow me to correct myself, the merc set is only useful to players who are so stupid that they don't (or won't) wear the HS set.

So you're saying when I was killing healers since Osgilith came out I must be extremely good to kill good healers mid-fight while being harassed. Thanks man, I am pretty good.

So which is it? Am I wrong? Or will you admit that the merc set is inferior?

Twice now ive said that HS set replaces Merciful, but Merciful isnt useless. Your reading fails you. Encase you havent understood: ive criticized your blanket statements without evidence and im not the only one to notice. Ontop of promoting yourself as the best you never provide proof. But if you did you'd probably get shut down like poor Johncena.

I simply offered you a chance to back up what you are saying, to provide proof to support your claims other than "I'm right because I said I am and I ranked by killing healers", if you are too scared to take it, that's fine, but don't pretend that you aren't, be a man and admit that you know that if you take me up on my offer, you will be embarrassed, and you know it.

Im not on Arkenstone but during the time I was Deathlyheals noted my Hunter as the best at the current time. So for Deathly to say that while I use Merciful set and my traditional style I must be pretty decent.

Playing a traditional style its pretty gimpy compared to modern but performance isnt synonymous with skill.

[007Squanto]

That the HS is better than the merc set is not a ridiculous claim, nor was that the proof that I asked for. Read my post again. Its irrelevant to this thread, as the argument is not proof that the hunter class doesn't need a better heal. Its not proof that hunters can kill any class in 10-15 seconds, which if you read my post, is the proof I asked for. And no, sitting in stealth, applying all buffs, and banking on perfect crits does not qualify, as that is a situation you and I know to be unrealistic and unrepresentative of the classes position in the ettenmoors.

For the record, I agree that the HS is better.

Stay on topic now. That was quite the dodge you just performed.

[Thaelon]

So I guess it means im pretty good, since I play with two handicaps and still get results, cool.

Yet again, refer to my burg DN armour set question.

Because you havent provided data from both sets ill always win this argument. This' the exact reason why I started to criticized your blanket absolute statements without relative data. Unlike you I comment from experience and dont resort to insult to make myself look greater. You still have quiet a burden on your shoulders to prove just how superior you are.

I don't need to provide data, the set gives 0 dps bonus, in fact it actually is a loss of dps via stats. So if I were to provide data, with the same crit/dev % and the same mits on the target, the damage of the hunter would be worse without getting a better debuff for it, hence proving my point.

It seems your "experience" hasn't taught you a thing.

So you're saying when I was killing healers since Osgilith came out I must be extremely good to kill good healers mid-fight while being harassed. Thanks man, I am pretty good.

Burg DN armour set question.

Twice now ive said that HS set replaces Merciful, but Merciful isnt useless. Your reading fails you. Encase you havent understood: ive criticized your blanket statements without evidence and im not the only one to notice. Ontop of promoting yourself as the best you never provide proof. But if you did you'd probably get shut down like poor Johncena.

So you admit to twice admitting that I am right and you were wrong? All of your posts talking about "empty words", "backseat drivers", "people claiming thing with no provided evidence other than their opinion", it all applies to you. It's like you looked in the mirror and thought about your own personality, and then called me everything you thought of.

Im not on Arkenstone but during the time I was Deathlyheals noted my Hunter as the best at the current time. So for Deathly to say that while I use Merciful set and my traditional style I must be pretty decent.

Burg DN armour set question, but add in a random trash creep telling me I was good.

Playing a traditional style its pretty gimpy compared to modern but performance isnt synonymous with skill.

I don't even understand what you are trying to argue anymore, you have flopped so many times that your (potential) point has been lost. You started by claiming that the merc set was better than the HS set, then you flipped after I proved you wrong to "well it has a use I guess, it given an effect, even if it is worse in every way it still has a use", now you are somewhere left field again trying your hardest to claim you have skill and claim that because you play differently to anyone good, you must be good. Feel free to continue dreaming bud, you join a large community of fake "good" players, if you went to Landroval you might find a large portion of them, don't be scared to introduce yourself.

That the HS is better than the merc set is not a ridiculous claim, nor was that the proof that I asked for. Read my post again. Its irrelevant to this thread, as the argument is not proof that the hunter class doesn't need a better heal. Its not proof that hunters can kill any class in 10-15 seconds, which if you read my post, is the proof I asked for.

The HS>merc proof was to Oromay (one of the great failures of our time), the "camo-ganks" were for you. I provided you with 4 different creep classes, all being killed in less than 5.5s, last I checked, 5.5 was less than 10-15. Now do you think a class that is capable of such things, in a line that is it's weakest for soloing, should be given a better heal?

And no, sitting in stealth, applying all buffs, and banking on perfect crits does not qualify, as that is a situation you and I know to be unrealistic and unrepresentative of the classes position in the ettenmoors.

You mean "camo-ganking"? Definitely not, hunters can't kill any creep class in 10-15 seconds, let alone "gank" them from stealth. Who came up with such nonsense?

For the record, I agree that the HS is better.

Oromay won't like you anymore man and I heard you don't want to mess with him.

Stay on topic now. That was quite the dodge you just performed.

I know that you aren't very good at this sort of thing, but generally when you claim someone is "dodging" or "straw-manning", they sorta need to be doing so, or at least seemingly doing so. I literally gave you everything you asked for then some, so I don't think "dodging" was a great choice here. I understand you're a little "spooked" because you know that you made a mistake calling me out, but try harder next time.

[Ensnared]

Yet again, refer to my burg DN armour set question.

I don't need to provide data, the set gives 0 dps bonus, in fact it actually is a loss of dps via stats. So if I were to provide data, with the same crit/dev % and the same mits on the target, the damage of the hunter would be worse without getting a better debuff for it, hence proving my point.

It seems your "experience" hasn't taught you a thing.

Burg DN armour set question.

So you admit to twice admitting that I am right and you were wrong? All of your posts talking about "empty words", "backseat drivers", "people claiming thing with no provided evidence other than their opinion", it all applies to you. It's like you looked in the mirror and thought about your own personality, and then called me everything you thought of.

Burg DN armour set question, but add in a random trash creep telling me I was good.

I don't even understand what you are trying to argue anymore, you have flopped so many times that your (potential) point has been lost. You started by claiming that the merc set was better than the HS set, then you flipped after I proved you wrong to "well it has a use I guess, it given an effect, even if it is worse in every way it still has a use", now you are somewhere left field again trying your hardest to claim you have skill and claim that because you play differently to anyone good, you must be good. Feel free to continue dreaming bud, you join a large community of fake "good" players, if you went to Landroval you might find a large portion of them, don't be scared to introduce yourself.

The HS>merc proof was to Oromay (one of the great failures of our time), the "camo-ganks" were for you. I provided you with 4 different creep classes, all being killed in less than 5.5s, last I checked, 5.5 was less than 10-15. Now do you think a class that is capable of such things, in a line that is it's weakest for soloing, should be given a better heal?

You mean "camo-ganking"? Definitely not, hunters can't kill any creep class in 10-15 seconds, let alone "gank" them from stealth. Who came up with such nonsense?

Oromay won't like you anymore man and I heard you don't want to mess with him.

I know that you aren't very good at this sort of thing, but generally when you claim someone is "dodging" or "straw-manning", they sorta need to be doing so, or at least seemingly doing so. I literally gave you everything you asked for then some, so I don't think "dodging" was a great choice here. I understand you're a little "spooked" because you know that you made a mistake calling me out, but try harder next time.

I just do my job and kill healers and you lose you ####. Insecure much? Or are you just raging bc I use stupid gear and a old school style and still get results. So I guess that makes you the envious raging hulk?
Ive even solo'd Bizar mid-fight while Keyturner and Proton harass me in a 3v3. But I guess they're all trash?

Its silly that you're so upset, but you should at least respect OPs desire to continue the topic and st-u, but you're so full of #### you cant stop. I dont read your dribble because its a waste of time.

Put your word count to good use: finish this crossword, calm down and st-f.

[Thaelon]

I just do my job and kill healers and you lose you ####. Insecure much? Or are you just raging bc I use stupid gear and a old school style and still get results. So I guess that makes you the envious raging hulk?
Ive even solo'd Bizar mid-fight while Keyturner and Proton harass me in a 3v3. But I guess they're all trash?

So because you can't counter any of my points, you now are going to avoid them all and name call incessantly with no real tie to any of this thread? Seems legit.

You keep talking about "killing healers" and "getting results", refer to my burg DN armour set question for why that is the case (if it is, I personally have seen you once, you and stylo (in fire) failed to kill my r8 defiler for 2m around a tree at gta before you both gave up and left).

I have no idea who "Bizar" or "Keyturner" are, but if "Bizar" is a WL or defiler, and you did in fact solo him (you soloing him begs the question, what was your group make-up in a 3v3 if you were the only dps?) mid-fight with two creeps harassing you, then yes, they are all complete garbage, or were at the time of it happening.

Its silly that you're so upset, but you should at least respect OPs desire to continue the topic and st-u, but you're so full of #### you cant stop. I dont read your dribble because its a waste of time.

Using "you're so upset" already? It's so early to pull that card, at least for anyone who can debate at least competently, you seem to be complete garbage at it, just like lotro.

Put your word count to good use: finish this crossword, calm down and st-f.

I wonder, when you tried to compare QS and HS, if someone had told you this exact thing (and saved you countless replies trying to defend QS when obviously you were wrong), would you have finished the crossword?


Continue posting, we enjoy laughing at you in TS.

[Intolerance]

Gahhh...this fekking troll...i'd love to meet in a 7-11 parking lot some time...

What a moron...an absolute idiotic imbecilic moronic internet troll.

Gratz on being pro at something.

Red herrings and diversion.

The links you posted w/ CA parses do not exist in the real moors, or are so rare as to not factor into anything.

Every fight, 100% hits? No avoidances, resists, blocks, parries, evades? Nothing?

Right.

Maybe against greenie creeps w/ zero Aud, mits, or Delving food.

Crit hits on almost every attack? From someone wearing no Aud gear? Against ranked creeps?

If rvr w/ fully debuffed creep and cappy buffed freep, then irrelevant as your opinions.

Lolololol.

What an idiot you are.

Stop posting garbage. Stop linking garbage. Stop being garbage.

Go play Wizards 101.

And yes...hunters need a better heal.

[Fererif]

Gahhh...this fekking troll...i'd love to meet in a 7-11 parking lot some time...

What a moron...an absolute idiotic imbecilic moronic internet troll.

Gratz on being pro at something.

Red herrings and diversion.

The links you posted w/ CA parses do not exist in the real moors, or are so rare as to not factor into anything.

Every fight, 100% hits? No avoidances, resists, blocks, parries, evades? Nothing?

Right.

Maybe against greenie creeps w/ zero Aud, mits, or Delving food.

Crit hits on almost every attack? From someone wearing no Aud gear? Against ranked creeps?

If rvr w/ fully debuffed creep and cappy buffed freep, then irrelevant as your opinions.

Lolololol.

What an idiot you are.

Stop posting garbage. Stop linking garbage. Stop being garbage.

Go play Wizards 101.

And yes...hunters need a better heal.

For the record... ^this is coming from a r14 hunter, who gave me less of a challenge than most lvl 20 hunters. Just thought I'd point that out.

[Annaliel]

Since i'm tired of reading QQs coming from bad hunters...please Turbine give hunters some huge buff since 99% hunters don't make any effort to try improving and instead fill the whole forums with QQs.
Oh and you can always stack 50k+ morale and go yellow line if you are bad anyway...

[007Squanto]

Since i'm tired of reading QQs coming from bad hunters...please Turbine give hunters some huge buff since 99% hunters don't make any effort to try improving and instead fill the whole forums with QQs.
Oh and you can always stack 50k+ morale and go yellow line if you are bad anyway...

And you still would get farmed by BA's and spiders

[Ethrildar]

And you still would get farmed by BA's and spiders

And be entirely, entirely useless in any group that wouldn't just be able to not have a yellow hunter, and do just as well. Haha

[mr_toad]

I invite any of you who've engaged in the always pointless act of arguing with - to examine his history on these forums. If you do you'll discover that the self proclaimed distinguished champion of reason and logic, who has said multiple times that no one can outwit him on these forums, a statement in itself that makes him the most overt narcissist you might ever come across (among other equally overt statements he's made, like the perpetual assertion that he is at the same time the best player this game has ever seen), refuses to procure any proof or evidence of any of the ridiculous positions that he maintains, and ironically demands proof from the very people he is arguing against, behavior that on the contrary I believe makes you the champion of hypocrisy and logical fallacy.

Why you continue to embarrass yourself at every turn by asserting things without having an even sophomoric authority on the subject, such as the hunter class, is not so much a mystery as it is evidence that your presence on these forums is only contrarian, as you yourself have said that you delight in engaging in arguments with others and take a sadistic pleasure in "winning arguments" despite having more holes in every argument you make than a wheel of swiss.

One might ask for - to prove that a hunter can blow up a BA and a spider or any class for that matter in 10-15 seconds, but you would never get any such proof. Apparently in the lotro he plays, Moving target and reflect don't exist, nor do morale pots or uruk heal or burrow. That's the swiss cheese I'm talking about.

well said Squanto.... took out the poster's name because there's some good universal points here that go beyond the hi-jinks of some of the trollish propaganda in this thread

I only play hunter, and I PvMP a lot ... balance for the hunter in PvE and in the moors has swung up and down over the years ... currently in my opinion PvE balance for the hunter is alright, in the moors it's abysmal .... however, PvMP is not meant for solo balance, it's designed around group balance ... before the recent update Freeps as a group were OP even though hunters solo struggled.... the problem is Creeps need their free snack when a solo hunter runs by, so there's gonna be a lot of opposition from Creep proxies here in the hunter forums when reasonable hunter buffs are suggested

years ago, I could sometimes solo wargs even when they knew I was coming... with the latest balance adjustments, not even good wardens I know can solo wargs ... so maybe now that the pendulum has swung towards creeps, the thought of modest hunter buffs can be entertained since even with a couple modest buffs to survival skills, burst dps, etc, hunters will still be a "free lunch" to any creep that wanders by

and none of this is to qq about creeps having the upper hand, they had the lower hand for so long they deserve it ... but devs, please throw the hunters a bone with some modest buffs so at least we can have a little more fun out there from time to time

[Ethrildar]

with the latest balance adjustments, not even good wardens I know can solo wargs ... so maybe now that the pendulum has swung towards creeps

Whilst there is a lot of elitist "I need to show everyone I'm amazing at a class I haven't played in 3 years" BS here, your post made me want to die a little inside, you're right, Hunters are bottom of the barrel and in solo pvp they're - for the most part - free food. But Wardens you know can't solo Wargs? Wardens can easily, easily, easily take down wargs right now. Usually multiple wargs at once.

[Constrictions]

what? This would only be a failure in logic if you posted comparable damage when using the merciful set. Knowing the parameters of the test would be useful in a comparison, but the claim Constrictions was making that you'd have to maintain the dps from the initial burst of a camo-gank for upwards for 20s to kill a defiler who wasn't self-healing seems a bit off, at the least (I'll get to his post this evening). Think of it as a challenge, Orak. Go ahead and post some parses where you did equivalent damage with the merc set. The debuff portion of the set is clearly matched by the HS set, since HS is being applied often enough for the debuff to remain up fulltime, so you must be selecting the set because it's damage is comparable, right?


Non-Imbued LIs are still usable (I'll bet you were 'challenging' healers with those before ILIs came out), does this mean your next claim will be that Imbuing is a waste as well? I thought the claim was that the HS set is inferior to the Merc set, not that the merc set wasn't usable? If we're going by the standard that something other than the HS set is inferior, but still usable, I have some quest reward gear I'd like to throw into the debate for consideration, since I've found it quite usable.

Assuming the condition of 200% mastery before burn hot (and 30% crit), after using burn hot with a max legacy we're talking something like an unmitigated 65k heartseeker (not including the crit of every tick of it's bleed with max bleed legacy - worth something around 12k damage) and a 58k upshot from stealth.


That totals 123k mitigatable damage.

Let's make a defiler - it has the following stats:
110k morale
60-70% CD
45% (both) mits (after chants)


Mitigated with audacity that 123k becomes 73.8k. If the defiler had 45% mitigations, it becomes 40.59k mitigtable damage between both upshot and heartseeker. If the defiler in question has between 60 and 70% crit defence, it could reduce the damage by up to 5k (rough estimate). Total mitigated damage is closer to 35k. Throw in the 12k and in your full burst rotation out of stealth you have succesfully done 47/110k, leaving 63k (58%). That's in the first second of combat (including the DoT of course - assuming it hits). Over the next 5 you're going to do 3 quick shots and a swift bow (hopefully SB procs) for an average of 20k damage, leaving 43k. You will merc (if traited), intent, a blood (if traited) followed by two quick shot/pens for an average of around 13-19k (mostly depending on whether merc crits) over 6 or 7 seconds. That's 12-14 seconds in combat and the target still has over 20k and burn hot has ended. In that extra 1 second before your 10-15, you can maybe get off a quickshot for around 3k extra damage, putting it at or just above 20k. Over the next 3 or 4 seconds a few quickshots, a swift bow and a second upshot will almost kill it, if you get a poor crit rate but could do the job.

These figures (on average) should be fairly accurate, as I've diced them from saved combat logs against defilers. But even if it's out by 5k (+/-) or so, the only hope the hunter has to burn it in under 20 seconds is a second crit upshot from the reduced cooldown and/or a (dev) crit rate significantly above the hunters crit stat.

Realistically, damage could be higher or lower depending on heaps of things; outposts, hunter legacies, defiler corruptions (greatest), additional opponents, line of sight and environment, latency (esp for non-US players), server or client lagg - possibly even weapon swap animations (Incl. before and after combat), actual crits (especially for the HS bleed) and whether or not HS bleed resists. Because reavers/defilers are the gredbyg of creepside, the latter hits on average will probably be a bit bigger and the former slightly lower.


The deal with the merc set debuff is that it is entirely unrealistic to expect the defiler not to heal themselves within 15-20 seconds of taking that much damage. Without the merc set you have just less than 8 seconds (application/animation) in which you will hope that they burn their pot (25%) and restoration heal. If they are smart, and you don't have the merc set, they will wait 8 seconds and


----------


The merc set is selected for it's availability and consistency. You're dicing with a RnG with the HS set for an 8 second debuff which has a fair chance to resist, lasting only 8 seconds. The merc set provides an incurable and unresistable debuff that is potentially available every 10 seconds (with a 10sec duration).


The HS set has no internal cooldown from what I've seen, so you can theoretically spam quick shot for a machine gun QS/HS rotation with an occasional SB, and maybe pen or blood. I don't remember claiming that the merc armour is better to use (performance wise) for anything apart from the debuff. Logistically speaking, the HS set's power is so much more ridiculous than anything the warden ever had in terms of difficulty/reward RE: DPS. Perhaps you could consider not using the HS 4-set as being comparable to you using third age weapons because wardens were ####ing stupid? I think I've already made that comment haven't I?

To give more clarity, the entire reason the merc set comes up is to give a direct comparison between the heartseeker debuff and the merc debuff. Everyone in this thread should know (or be able to safely assume) the stat differences between the armour sets favours the HS set. The power of the set, especially with the notion of spammable heartseekers is not in question as extremely overpowered. Reading between the lines of my previous posts - the claims are that alone, in a direct 1:1 comparison, Merc debuff > HS debuff. This claim is standing even while acknowledging that HS armour > merc armour in raw stats and faceroll potential.

Realistically both the debuffs are at their greatest 'exploitable' potential when they are synergised.
Having the 4set from merc over the 4set from osgiliath, for the purposes of reducing incoming enemy healing, is to eliminate randomness from application (resist or cure) and proc (merc is up on a 10sec cooldown, HS is only up if a QS procs - which on average seems to happen less than or as much as a swift bow proc). With the merc set you still have a heartseeker debuff available on use. But with the osigiliath set you lose out on the merc debuff which, directly comparing the debuffs, is far superior to the HS debuff alone (3 gates of randomness with HS versus 1 for merc). But like I said, in a given fight, if you time it right (solo) or your group times it right, you have greater chances of success by synergising both debuffs when enemy heals are an issue than just relying on constant HS resets.


That is what makes the merc set worth anything.

-------------

As for being relevant to this thread, a discussion of inc healing debuffs, camo-ganking and strength stance quickshot slow potency are all red herrings. The discussion (for the most part) is in light of the potency of all these things, and nothing I've commented on that was actually suggested has been unreasonable.

[spelunker]

We're still going to argue this stuff?

buckle up, friend:

It's already been detailed elsewhere - the ranged slow only gives a major advantage if the hunter is starting at a decent range. If they aren't it's moot; at max range wargs and reavers can already turnaround and use resilience/blade toss or sprint/hips to minimize/negate that advantage anyway.

Why shouldn't we be talking about starting from range on a class with stealth, stealth tracking, and traps to pop a counter-tracking warg? In the case of the reaver, what's stopping the hunter from say, slowing from 40m forcing the reaver to resilience from range, re-applying the slow as it wears off, and then CotH to clear off BT/Hamstring and re-establishing range (bonus points for an OOC tripwire that will work even through resilience or a stun pot)? Is this enough to kill the reaver? Probably not, but its certainly going to get you 15s into the fight without taking considerable damage. The claim that the slow is only worthwhile if you start the fight from significant range is similarly ridiculous, since a hunter has a number of tools available to them to re-establish range, if used intelligently. You can even find plenty of examples of it with your mentor doing so. Funny how that pillar of objectivity didn't chime in on that point you brought up.

I haven't played a runekeeper in a little while now. However, I've watched runekeepers donning builds of 36k unbuffed with ~60k mastery, max crit and mits with 4/6 aud gear. Is that not part of the nuker category? Not so long ago that morale thresshhold is what tanks were running - most tanks still do. I never said that runekeepers have a melee advantage. Over hunters they do. What I will claim is that RK's have a minimal disadvantage in a relative comparison.

What's the effective morale pool difference between something with 40/46% mitigations and 36k morale, and something with 58/58% mitigations and 28k morale?

Time smouldering in the downtime of both disarm and gut punch. (Would they even need smouldering versus a warg?)

Only disarm will break smouldering... If the reaver is being effective with all debuffs and dps burst timing, it won't be till the 3rd smouldering that the RK realistically gets it off, which is at a point in the fight where the only way the RK is even alive is through self-motivation spam.
Log a warg or RK and find out, I certainly haven't had an issue with fire RKs this or last update, with or without smouldering.

With 11k power pools - no issues maintaining scribe a new ending. Negate the effects of most curable effects, even in group situations. Unlikely that a reaver is going to get a max impale.

Scribe applies its effect every 2s, if only reavers had other debuffs they could use to give themselves an effective 3-4s window to thrash>impale. Maybe Ocrack can chime in on how that can possibly be done?

In this build, has a 10-11k self heal with self-motivate.
They can use 8 different inlays with independent cooldowns for uninteruptable inductions.
They can spec mending verse for use during any line at any attunement. I can't remember - can they also still cast writ of health in battle attunement? Or was it epic of the ages?
They have access to at least two instant cast CC effects, one of which grants a temporary 50% slow. They can use aote.
Perhaps the biggest point: They also do a very significant portion of their DPS to their opponent while they kite (red or yellow). Red-line hunters can't.

Self-motivate has been covered a billion times on these forums, its one of the primary reasons (along with prey on the weak) why people are so pissed about % of morale heals.
Bringing up the RK slow while talking about them in fire line is a bit silly. I'll assume you meant the runestone at least, which restricts you from getting the 'good' mending verse, and while useful against a warg restricting positional, the slow is rather iffy against a reaver since it has a small radius and a reaver doesn't care much about positional dmg.
Writ of health is blue spec limited. Epic for the ages requires healing attunement, which means the long cd on steady hands, or a full attunement clear and then at least a prelude to hope to get attunement.

When we get down to the nitty gritty, there are 2 things that shift the balance of a melee opponent against a RK compared to hunter; Self-motivation, and AtoE working on DoT effects. These are regularly listed as among the most broken parts of the moors on the micro level.

Do you have any experience with how a hunter competes with a defiler in this kind of situation? (Ever heard that theory without data is dead?)

yes.

It takes approximately 15 seconds to kill a defiler if you sustain the initial DPS counter shown on combat analysis if they use no heals whatsoever.

No, it doesn't.

Assuming the success of this, you're still at risk of the multitude of environmental factors that you would be totally oblivious to as a result of playing a warg (if you still do).

Go ahead and elaborate on this one.

Some quick facts
The actual damage difference between 50k and 60k mastery on a hunter in regards to critical hit damage with heartseeker or upshot against the average creep is ~1000 damage. That is the same difference between the old -1900 breachfinders and the -4k breach finders. Regarding base damage, the difference is significantly thinner.
What is a effect of 10k mastery/3-4k critical damage in a 6 second burst rotation? Is that going to cost you a win or loss? Maybe - depends on what you're trading off for it.

Is this a decent trade-off?
A relatively permanent, uncurable, irresistible 10sec duration -50% inc healing debuff, useable from 70% morale - which doesn't affect your outgoing damage rotation beyond two mere weapon swap animations (You know, if you feel you have to swap out for a 10sec merc shot cooldown - it's not really necessary).

The only reason it doesn't affect your outgoing damage rotation is if you're using a less than ideal build to begin with (HS set), it is further not even an ideal dps rotation to use Merc every 10s in a non-HS build rotation until you've decreased the focus cost, which further requires ISB as an induction SB is a dps loss, and getting ISB proc every 10s is far from a given, and even then a 5 focus Merc shot is at best an iffy dps choice.

So you're giving up stats and giving up an ideal dps rotation even in this in-ideal build for the sake of the debuff.

The overall outgoing raw damage won't be very different if I was to use the 4-set osgiliath bonus and 2 audacity pieces. I know because I've tested it. What it probably means is I don't have to time a cooldown or an induction or use a more elaborate kiting/rotation scheme to fire it. Two/three heartseekers in one fight - pretty stupid. Maybe you could liken it to you using third age weapons because wardens have been so ####ed. In this case, the addition of the armour was an unnecessary overcompensation.

Whether I like the way hunter plays with the HS set or not, it isn't as powerful. That you claim the outgoing damage isn't very different between the two because you tested it makes me wonder if you did actually test it. Could you like some parses with and without the set (and list relevant stats) so we can see whats happening? You're either vastly outperforming other hunters not using the set, or vastly under-performing relative to those who do.

Do you play a hunter? Have you played a hunter? Have you mained a hunter? Have you mained it to the point of being able to have any sort of mastery in this topic? If not - how much formal instruction have you received from anyone who could be said to remotely meet any of those?

Yes. Yes. No. Trick question. I've talked with a number of hunters, several of which I would say meet those requirements, regarding ideal dps rotations, tactics vs creeps, as well as 'non-traditional' ways to play the class to see if I could find a way to play the class that I found challenging and enjoyable. This has involved me playing other people's geared hunters both in PvE and PvP and spending what I would consider enough time to form an intelligent opinion on the class and the relative strength of various skills and tactics, though certainly the muscle memory of more advanced rotations (that are also largely obsolete with the HS set) and changing tactics in adjusting combat conditions aren't up to par.

Talking with expertise on wider game systems and wider area's is fine, but the same attitude doesn't have legs to stand on in many other places. Like I said - I'm not an expert on this topic! But your last post made it insanely obvious that you're on the verge of making this mistake Desolates.

I'd be on the verge of this if I were making ridiculous claims about either my prowess on the class or what the class is or is not capable of, which I am not. Go back and look at the expert 'claims' I've made on the class, either in this thread or elsewhere and get back to me on the relevance of this pent up diatribe.

Assuming the condition of 200% mastery before burn hot (and 30% crit), after using burn hot with a max legacy we're talking something like an unmitigated 65k heartseeker (not including the crit of every tick of it's bleed with max bleed legacy - worth something around 12k damage) and a 58k upshot from stealth.


That totals 123k mitigatable damage.


Let's make a defiler - it has the following stats:
110k morale
60-70% CD
45% (both) mits (after chants)

Do you have any idea what a defiler's corruption setup would have to look like to achieve stats like this? Actually, I went ahead and checked, after chants, its not possible to have these stats without grouping with a Warleader (and I am counting the Delving Armour buff here).

Mitigated with audacity that 123k becomes 73.8k. If the defiler had 45% mitigations, it becomes 40.59k mitigtable damage between both upshot and heartseeker. If the defiler in question has between 60 and 70% crit defence, it could reduce the damage by up to 5k (rough estimate). Total mitigated damage is closer to 35k. Throw in the 12k and in your full burst rotation out of stealth you have succesfully done 47/110k, leaving 63k (58%). That's in the first second of combat (including the DoT of course - assuming it hits). Over the next 5 you're going to do 3 quick shots and a swift bow (hopefully SB procs) for an average of 20k damage, leaving 43k. You will merc (if traited), intent, a blood (if traited) followed by two quick shot/pens for an average of around 13-19k (mostly depending on whether merc crits) over 6 or 7 seconds. That's 12-14 seconds in combat and the target still has over 20k and burn hot has ended. In that extra 1 second before your 10-15, you can maybe get off a quickshot for around 3k extra damage, putting it at or just above 20k. Over the next 3 or 4 seconds a few quickshots, a swift bow and a second upshot will almost kill it, if you get a poor crit rate but could do the job.


These figures (on average) should be fairly accurate, as I've diced them from saved combat logs against defilers. But even if it's out by 5k (+/-) or so, the only hope the hunter has to burn it in under 20 seconds is a second crit upshot from the reduced cooldown and/or a (dev) crit rate significantly above the hunters crit stat.

Moving past the fact that all these numbers are inaccurate based on the initial stats, what exactly does this prove? Seems like you're trying to explain to me why it is extremely difficult to nuke a defiler without the HS set, when the whole point of your previous posts was that the merc set was stronger than the HS set. It doesn't matter how hard half the skills you list hit, when 2-6 of them in the rotation you list could be replaced by a skill that hits significantly harder than them.

Realistically, damage could be higher or lower depending on heaps of things; outposts, hunter legacies, defiler corruptions (greatest), additional opponents, line of sight and environment, latency (esp for non-US players), server or client lagg - possibly even weapon swap animations (Incl. before and after combat). Because reavers/defilers are the gredbyg of creepside, the latter hits on average will probably be a bit bigger and the former slightly lower.

You realize that defilers don't have the relentless buff anymore, and haven't for over a year, correct?

The deal with the merc set debuff is that it is entirely unrealistic to expect the defiler not to heal themselves within 15-20 seconds of taking that much damage. Without the merc set you have just less than 8 seconds (application/animation) in which you will hope that they burn their pot (25%) and restoration heal. If they are smart, and you don't have the merc set, they will wait 8 seconds and

----------




The merc set is selected for it's availability and consistency. You're dicing with a RnG with the HS set for an 8 second debuff which has a fair chance to resist, lasting only 8 seconds. The merc set provides an incurable and unresistable debuff that is potentially available every 10 seconds (with a 10sec duration).

The HS debuff only has a fair chance to resist if you're running a build that is lacking stats and thus sacrifices finesse to try and make up for those lost stats (do you sense a theme here?). Even with a DoF pot, a defiler is going to be at a resistance rating that is essentially negated (27.4%) by a properly geared hunter, unless the defiler is stacking resistance corruptions. If you want to get into the viability of stacking resistance corruptions on a creep, we can go into that as well.

The HS set has no internal cooldown from what I've seen, so you can theoretically spam quick shot for a machine gun QS/HS rotation with an occasional SB, and maybe pen or blood. I don't remember claiming that the merc armour is better to use (performance wise) for anything apart from the debuff. Logistically speaking, the HS set's power is so much more ridiculous than anything the warden ever had in terms of difficulty/reward RE: DPS. Perhaps you could consider not using the HS 4-set as being comparable to you using third age weapons because wardens were ####ing stupid? I think I've already made that comment haven't I?

To give more clarity, the entire reason the merc set comes up is to give a direct comparison between the heartseeker debuff and the merc debuff. Everyone in this thread should know (or be able to safely assume) the stat differences between the armour sets favours the HS set. The power of the set, especially with the notion of spammable heartseekers is not in question as extremely overpowered. Reading between the lines of my previous posts - the claims are that alone, in a direct 1:1 comparison, Merc debuff > HS debuff. This claim is standing even while acknowledging that HS armour > merc armour in raw stats and faceroll potential.

I said:

Why are you and Orak so fixated on this merc set? You give up a billion stats relative to the essence audacity, and give up even more in terms of potential dps and incoming healing relative to the pve set. You're lamenting relative stats above while wearing obsolete gear.

the relevant part of your reply being:

Some quick facts
The actual damage difference between 50k and 60k mastery on a hunter in regards to critical hit damage with heartseeker or upshot against the average creep is ~1000 damage. That is the same difference between the old -1900 breachfinders and the -4k breach finders. Regarding base damage, the difference is significantly thinner.
What is a effect of 10k mastery/3-4k critical damage in a 6 second burst rotation? Is that going to cost you a win or loss? Maybe - depends on what you're trading off for it.

Is this a decent trade-off?
A relatively permanent, uncurable, irresistible 10sec duration -50% inc healing debuff, useable from 70% morale - which doesn't affect your outgoing damage rotation beyond two mere weapon swap animations (You know, if you feel you have to swap out for a 10sec merc shot cooldown - it's not really necessary).

The overall outgoing raw damage won't be very different if I was to use the 4-set osgiliath bonus and 2 audacity pieces. I know because I've tested it. What it probably means is I don't have to time a cooldown or an induction or use a more elaborate kiting/rotation scheme to fire it. Two/three heartseekers in one fight - pretty stupid.

So after all this, we're at the point where you're trying to say you only wanted to compare the sets based on the stat difference, while taking advantage of 1 set's set-bonus and ignoring the other despite directly referencing it in the initial comparison?

Realistically both the debuffs are at their greatest 'exploitable' potential when they are synergised.
Having the 4set from merc over the 4set from osgiliath, for the purposes of reducing incoming enemy healing, is to eliminate randomness from application (resist or cure) and proc (merc is up on a 10sec cooldown, HS is only up if a QS procs - which on average seems to happen less than a swift bow proc). With the merc set you still have a heartseeker debuff available on use. But with the osigiliath set you lose out on the merc debuff which, directly comparing the debuffs, is far superior to the HS debuff alone (3 gates of randomness with HS versus 1 for merc). But like I said, in a given fight, if you time it right (solo) or your group times it right, you have greater chances of success by synergising both debuffs when enemy heals are an issue than just relying on constant HS resets.


That is what makes the merc set worth anything.

Whether I like the way hunter plays with the HS set or not, it isn't as powerful. 1 hunter with the HS set > 1 hunter with the Merc set. 2 hunters with the HS set will do more dps, and achieve the goal of eliminating gaps in inc healing debuffs just as effectively as 1 with the HS and 1 with the Merc set.

[Constrictions]

Why shouldn't we be talking about starting from range on a class with stealth, stealth tracking, and traps to pop a counter-tracking warg? In the case of the reaver, what's stopping the hunter from say, slowing from 40m forcing the reaver to resilience from range, re-applying the slow as it wears off, and then CotH to clear off BT/Hamstring and re-establishing range (bonus points for an OOC tripwire that will work even through resilience or a stun pot)? Is this enough to kill the reaver? Probably not, but its certainly going to get you 15s into the fight without taking considerable damage. The claim that the slow is only worthwhile if you start the fight from significant range is similarly ridiculous, since a hunter has a number of tools available to them to re-establish range, if used intelligently. You can even find plenty of examples of it with your mentor doing so. Funny how that pillar of objectivity didn't chime in on that point you brought up.

You know what. All classes have "a number of tools available" to establish range. Every single class. In fact I can't think of one class that doesn't have "a number of tools available". Can you think of a class that DOESN'T have "a number" of tools for establishing some form range?
I sure as hell can't think of a class that doesn't have "a number of tools available"! Because as far as I know, every class has "a number of tools available".


This is not a valid retort.


The --->actual<---- number of tools that a hunter has already been touched on in previous posts in this very thread.
Do you want to visualise yourself dropping another metaphorical forum nuke (or to that effect) solely talking about that one very minor point (as tends to be one of your forum idiosyncrasies) as a smokescreen justification for why hunters, don't just not need, but why they should not get some minor buffs to very specific skills (subtle distinction there)?


The 15 seconds of time virtually untouched is fine. I'm not overstating it's effects (which someone with an intelligent opinion but minimal valid experience might do), but neither am I asking for more of it. That's not what I have suggested.


In all your replies you've all but ignored the purpose of this thread for a 70% slow that, in all probability, 0.0000000001% of PvP hunters --->actually<---- spec.
(Have you asked yourself, or your highly appraised sources of expertise, as to why that might be the case? Or will you conveniently ignore asking this question too?).

What's the effective morale pool difference between something with 40/46% mitigations and 36k morale, and something with 58/58% mitigations and 28k morale?

From a rough estimate, ~6k. But since when were we talking about bow-specced guardians?
The morale difference between a 20/22k hunter with max aud, mits (50%) and higher mastery would be well over 2(?) times that difference.

Only disarm will break smouldering... If the reaver is being effective with all debuffs and dps burst timing, it won't be till the 3rd smouldering that the RK realistically gets it off, which is at a point in the fight where the only way the RK is even alive is through self-motivation spam.
Log a warg or RK and find out, I certainly haven't had an issue with fire RKs this or last update, with or without smouldering.

If I recall how you played your warg, I doubt many people would have much of an issue with induction based classes (or, any class that you wouldn't pick to fight), if in general, they all kept topped up on every type of pot and played all their cooldowns to the letter.


It's a hard life as a warg these days, those 20sec duration 1min cd sprints etc etc

Scribe applies its effect every 2s, if only reavers had other debuffs they could use to give themselves an effective 3-4s window to thrash>impale. Maybe Ocrack can chime in on how that can possibly be done?

Fair point.

Self-motivate has been covered a billion times on these forums, its one of the primary reasons (along with prey on the weak) why people are so pissed about % of morale heals.
Bringing up the RK slow while talking about them in fire line is a bit silly. I'll assume you meant the runestone at least, which restricts you from getting the 'good' mending verse, and while useful against a warg restricting positional, the slow is rather iffy against a reaver since it has a small radius and a reaver doesn't care much about positional dmg.
Writ of health is blue spec limited. Epic for the ages requires healing attunement, which means the long cd on steady hands, or a full attunement clear and then at least a prelude to hope to get attunement.

Even without access to a 'good MV' or WoH, there's still more than a feasible potential for the runekeeper to have two separate 30% self heals. We could crunch some more numbers to recalculate the effective morale difference between that and guardian specced hunters (who use PO) - if you want, but no guarantee's as to how that might look for the hunter.

When we get down to the nitty gritty, there are 2 things that shift the balance of a melee opponent against a RK compared to hunter; Self-motivation, and AtoE working on DoT effects. These are regularly listed as among the most broken parts of the moors on the micro level.

Even the raw capability to swap to a form of heals is, in itself, a form of advantage. We can pretend that it's not, if somehow it helps for the sake of this argument.
Even if we deny EotA as a feasible possibility, these two other advantages being 'regularly listed' micro level problems is not blunting any of the impact of my claim.

yes.

Do share your vivid experiences.

No, it doesn't.

Perhaps if your measure of 'initial DPS counter' on CA is within the first 0.3-2 seconds.
In which case I can regularly pass anywhere from 15k, to 900k DPS1?!?! (Depending on a hell of a lot).


I did a little build testing on bullroarer before it was taken down. One thing I wanted to test was the damage effect of mastery stacking at different intervals of mastery percentage. Now in this build (just under 290% mastery with maxed LI's and 3 OPs) if I was to prep my buffs (Burn hot, crit mag, dev pot, focus etc) and using only Heartseeker (with the legacy) and Upshot, if both of them devastated (and the subsequent first tick of HS crits), I would parse something like 17-20k DPS (possibly higher?) by the time the upshot animation ends.


Does this sound like a valid initial parse to you? Because I wouldn't use this to measure jack #### unless I could, very very consistently, kill my target in this time without relying on two consecutive 10% devastate chances and a crit HS DoT (which is something like 1/400 chance of actually ever happening).


When I'm talking about an initial parse in this case, it is from the time that the 'burst' skills end, to when the next part of the in-combat rotation starts. Some of this depends on what crits as to what I'll consider being part of the burst rotation, but it's not ever anything past 6 seconds (or where the first merc fits in).

Go ahead and elaborate on this one.

I was just talking #### here.

The only reason it doesn't affect your outgoing damage rotation is if you're using a less than ideal build to begin with (HS set), it is further not even an ideal dps rotation to use Merc every 10s in a non-HS build rotation until you've decreased the focus cost, which further requires ISB as an induction SB is a dps loss, and getting ISB proc every 10s is far from a given, and even then a 5 focus Merc shot is at best an iffy dps choice.


So you're giving up stats and giving up an ideal dps rotation even in this in-ideal build for the sake of the debuff.

Like I said earlier, I consider using the HS set as my main form of DPS not ideal.
So yes, in some persons eyes I would be giving up an "ideal dps rotation", but that would only be if you consider an extremely overpowered RNG gated burst mechanic an ideal form of contributing DPS.


It may be an effective form of DPS (in terms of the numbers you'll see on screen), but it takes the hunter from requiring more than moderate player input to spamming quickshot in a morale stacking build with absolutely no hassles.


My actual input in this thread has been in light of other notions; I don't see why hunters should have to stack as much morale and mitigations as guardians and champions, or use a RNG gated proc for spammable heartseekers in order to be viable competition against some classes. Since when did the ranged nuker become the ranged nuker-tank?




If we are not giving any consideration to the HS proc, which I have not been (As I thought would have become clear - obviously not), then we would consider this:


20% mastery equivocates to an ~10% drop in DPS on targets with audacity. You lose out 750(?)? agility between the sets, which is just over 10% mastery.
I lose ~5% on my DPS for the opportunity to almost half a targets incoming healing (What's the potential for one defiler now, 4k? over 4k?) for a further 10 seconds.


If I was to consider the HS proc solely for the more frequent HS debuff, I would rule the merc set as superior for the fact it is not randomly gated behind quick shot spam (and more consistent), it is uncurable and it is non-resistible.


Is it semantics to argue that if I half their incoming HPS, I can practically add that to my DPS contribution?


Is this all becoming a bit clearer to you? Or is there still some sort of breakdown somewhere?

Whether I like the way hunter plays with the HS set or not, it isn't as powerful. That you claim the outgoing damage isn't very different between the two because you tested it makes me wonder if you did actually test it. Could you like some parses with and without the set (and list relevant stats) so we can see whats happening? You're either vastly outperforming other hunters not using the set, or vastly under-performing relative to those who do.

I know there is a drastic increase in the ST dps potential, especially in PvE. I'm not talking about a rotational comparison. I'm talking about a single instance of one heartseeker in one 4 set bonus, versus a single instance of one heartseeker in another. Like I just explained above - I do not consider the HS rng as worth consideration.

Some hunters told me what they thought about DPS rotations.
Someone told me a bit about hunter tactics vs creeps
Someone informed me about non-traditional playstyles
I logged in a friends hunter a few times and shot arrows at some creeps and landscape mobs.
I've formed an intelligent opinion on the capabilities of the class.


I don't have adaptive hunter skills or muscle memory, but as a result of all the above know almost everything there is to know about the class.

If some random approached you and said all this about the warden during isengard/RoR, would you consider their opinion worth much if they were consistently and unwaveringly insinuating you were talking fluff about XYZ, when its likely that a significant portion of their opinion about anything you might have been saying is a result from some communication error and an inability to ask "what do you mean when you say XYZ"?


If I hedged my bets correctly, I'd assume that you'd probably just tell him to #### off and stop wasting your time.

Do you have any idea what a defiler's corruption setup would have to look like to achieve stats like this? Actually, I went ahead and checked, after chants, its not possible to have these stats without grouping with a Warleader (and I am counting the Delving Armour buff here).


Moving past the fact that all these numbers are inaccurate based on the initial stats, what exactly does this prove? Seems like you're trying to explain to me why it is extremely difficult to nuke a defiler without the HS set, when the whole point of your previous posts was that the merc set was stronger than the HS set. It doesn't matter how hard half the skills you list hit, when 2-6 of them in the rotation you list could be replaced by a skill that hits significantly harder than them.

These figures (on average) should be fairly accurate, as I've diced them from saved combat logs against defilers

When I said 'lets make a defiler', I was literally making one up on the spot.


I hope this gives some more clarity as to where I was drawing those numbers.


The merc debuff is stronger at reducing the incoming healing of a single opponent (And no, I'm not saying 50% > 50%). When the factor of an enemies healing increases in magnitude, that strength becomes more pronounced. The randomly generated free instant heartseekers is not going to cope as well in keeping up with the demands of ensuring that the incoming DPS is higher than the incoming HPS on any given target, especially when with the merc set you can ensure the target has 2-6k inc healing, instead of 4-12k, whereas with the HS set you have to wait for a proc (which I think on average there is quite a significant downtime) with the possibility of resist.


Sure, it probably doesn't even matter, and sure, in more circumstances HS set is probably better because blah blah. Refer to my last comments.

You realize that defilers don't have the relentless buff anymore, and haven't for over a year, correct?

No, I had not taken notice. Thank you for pointing this out to me.

The HS debuff only has a fair chance to resist if you're running a build that is lacking stats and thus sacrifices finesse to try and make up for those lost stats (do you sense a theme here?). Even with a DoF pot, a defiler is going to be at a resistance rating that is essentially negated (27.4%) by a properly geared hunter, unless the defiler is stacking resistance corruptions. If you want to get into the viability of stacking resistance corruptions on a creep, we can go into that as well.

I'd rather not if you're going to write a web page on it.

Whether I like the way hunter plays with the HS set or not, it isn't as powerful. 1 hunter with the HS set > 1 hunter with the Merc set. 2 hunters with the HS set will do more dps, and achieve the goal of eliminating gaps in inc healing debuffs just as effectively as 1 with the HS and 1 with the Merc set.

My comments about the merc sets consistency, availability etc is only a minor plus point for me when I remind myself why I wouldn't use it.


The main one is that the set should not even exist. If I relied on it, then (esp.) down the track, it would probably lead me to become worse as a player as far as my adaptive potential when playing a hunter.
For similar reasons, I stopped using the warden bleed proc from BB's as well as all the other self-limitations I could mention that I've put on myself when playing the warden over the years - it forced me to succeed without an inane advantage that requires no or minimal player input.


I'm very curious as to whether you feel that hunters should be building for 28-30k morale and 58% mits as far as the games macro systems are concerned.
Otherwise - are 90% of the hunters you're fighting having 28-30k morale, 58% mits and speccing the strength stance slow legacy? Are they also using the HS set? Is that the position from which you're arguing against Brallegs style of buffs/changes?

[007Squanto]

WTB agile rejoinder back