Warden PvP build

[Rhalin]

My fellow wardens I am faced with a problem i have yet to solve this is pvp gear. I have tried many different builds i have tried supreme dps builds, Moral stacking, and dps moral stacking. But none of these builds are fruitful sadly. So I am just wondering how my fellow wardens on different server deal with the changes made to creeps and how they formed there builds. Please feel free to post or link your Gear/builds and explain why and how this works for you. Thank you and may your foes be crushed under our bleeds!

[Ethrildar]

Link your build and I'll see what things I'd change. I'm curring running 4-audacity 2-osgiliath armour pieces & have 28k morale solo buffed with 71k mastery (no ops), 45% fw/oc and tac mits, 65% crit D. I've still got a couple of touches to make but those will gain me an additional ~2000 mastery. This is also with 26.5% crit which will also go up to 27.5% when finished.

There's lots to do but as you can see, a pretty decent build is certainly doable, I have a lot of everything, and my mastery is way, way overcapped with a cappy in group, and just about right on the cap (1k over ish) with 1 mini in group (no cap).

[captainrobwash]

Link your build and I'll see what things I'd change. I'm curring running 4-audacity 2-osgiliath armour pieces & have 28k morale solo buffed with 71k mastery (no ops), 45% fw/oc and tac mits, 65% crit D. I've still got a couple of touches to make but those will gain me an additional ~2000 mastery. This is also with 26.5% crit which will also go up to 27.5% when finished.

There's lots to do but as you can see, a pretty decent build is certainly doable, I have a lot of everything, and my mastery is way, way overcapped with a cappy in group, and just about right on the cap (1k over ish) with 1 mini in group (no cap).

Would like to see some ss of this build 71k mastery sounds epic I'm at about 60 myself with 30k morale.

[Ethrildar]

Would like to see some ss of this build 71k mastery sounds epic I'm at about 60 myself with 30k morale.

When I can get my stat tomes done (they're a thousand gold each and I need 6 lol :/) I'll screenshot it It's not that difficult though really, with essences as they are now building is more about knowing what to aim for than being stuck behind things and unable to get certain stats.

By far the hardest thing of any build I'm currently doing, is stat tomes, and then LI scrolls.

Is your 60k mastery 30k morale out of the moors? I'm talking in the moors, so I'll be getting probably 5-10% more morale? No outposts though. Depending on what you build for, might wanna drop 2-3k off that morale, I easily sit over 30k with a cappy in the group and hope etc.

[CornWollis]

Unfortunately I lost VIP and don't plan on renewing it as of yet as my server is laggy/crashing RvR at the moment and it's unplayable so waiting for hardware upgrade before renewal so I can't give exact morale/mastery numbers with OP's/Battlefield Promotion.

I have a very faceroll build which is perfect for gearing with a mini/cappy with just an anthem of war/Relentless attack/IDOME/2 OPs my mastery goes a little overcap whilst still utilizing the BB bleed set bonus/+2 DoT pulses/+5% incoming melee damage essence.

Here is some photos of my build as of the latest update. (I do have swaps for Critical rating/Mastery for when running solo)







These stats are buffed with all stat tomes 14 (Even Will lol) and 19 Virtues.

IIRC when I was in moors with this build with a cappy/Mini buffed my stats were:

49k morale with Duty bound
80.4k Physical mastery
17.4k Critical Defence
30k Physical Mitigation
20k Tactical Mitigation
16k Resistance
18k Critical rating

Very morale heavy but I see no point in sacrificing for physical mastery when grouped with a mini/cappy.

- Gorelal

[Ethrildar]

Very morale heavy but I see no point in sacrificing for physical mastery when grouped with a mini/cappy.

- Gorelal

Really nice build, but a little too heavily reliant on mastery buffs from external sources? You've gone the opposite route to me basically, with regards to mastery/morale. Problem I have in groups at times is hitting 110k mastery though at times, which is annoying, so gotta make a full new set of jewels purely for morale stacking.

[spelunker]

49k morale with Duty bound
80.4k Physical mastery
17.4k Critical Defence
30k Physical Mitigation
20k Tactical Mitigation
16k Resistance
18k Critical rating

Very morale heavy but I see no point in sacrificing for physical mastery when grouped with a mini/cappy.

- Gorelal

For a build that has most everything set to hit relevant caps when grouped, and a morale pool that's probably 20k above the threshold where a warden would be targeted near last in group fights, your finesse is shockingly low.

Based on your essences, I'm wondering if you're running less than ideal virtues as well.

[legofreak11]

For a build that has most everything set to hit relevant caps when grouped, and a morale pool that's probably 20k above the threshold where a warden would be targeted near last in group fights, your finesse is shockingly low.

Based on your essences, I'm wondering if you're running less than ideal virtues as well.

You think 14k is low? I only use 12k yet I never notice any issues with b/p/e/r, granted I never go to the moors so I have no idea how their avoidances differ from t2 mobs' ones.

[spelunker]

You think 14k is low? I only use 12k yet I never notice any issues with b/p/e/r, granted I never go to the moors so I have no idea how their avoidances differ from t2 mobs' ones.

I haven't played warden enough to accurately place resistance rates. BPE however, creep classes range from roughly 30-45% total bpe (not counting some skills that directly buff an avoidance (moving target for 50% evade and frenzy for 5%).

[mintrix101]

=D =D =D =D thanks, i like

[Ethrildar]

14k Finesse is totally fine, that's what, 25%? I ran with 30% for a while, using an additional two or so essences to get there, and it made zero difference to what I now run with at around 13k ish. I still get BPE'd like mad by Creeps, especially Wargs for some reason, which is why positional is so key. I believe finesse actually caps at 50%, but I've never been able to get past 30%, and it was bang on 30.00% so I do wonder if that isn't really the cap; either way the amount of essences required to get past 30% given the DRs just to get to 30 itself, make it totally pointless (I can only assume you'd be looking at like 10 Finesse essences lol).

Resists on dots are an issue now, since to get a dot up you have to pass 4 checks, as opposed to the previous 3. I see a few resists, but not frequently enough for it to look bugged or whatever. I'd say Finesse works pretty well versus resist, a fair amount of my dots are resisted and a fair amount are not, although I find it annoying that Wardens are the only class that has to check 100% of it's damage against 4 different types of avoidance.

Anyone tried just getting to 50% finesse?

[CornWollis]

For a build that has most everything set to hit relevant caps when grouped, and a morale pool that's probably 20k above the threshold where a warden would be targeted near last in group fights, your finesse is shockingly low.

Based on your essences, I'm wondering if you're running less than ideal virtues as well.

I have a finesse swap bracelet that has 3x finesse which replaces my 3x morale bracelet if i start seeing a lot of B/P/E/R but with the update which fixed the resists with 14k finesse I see little to no B/P/E/R.

I am using Zeal, Innocence, Honour, Fidelity and Tolerance at 19 in that build, I could also swap those around I guess to suit which ever virtues you use which obviously sound a lot superior to mine ( I do sometimes swap Fidelity out for Determination if I am not up against a reaver with their armour debuff).

You sound like you have an Elite build, I would love to be enlightened by it.

[spelunker]

Re: finesse
I've had a build with over 30% finesse, so yes that must have been random luck that your rating was exactly 30%.
The lotro - wiki has a page where you can see exactly what rating gives every % if you'd like.

Wardens have a significant number of skills that have no bpe avoidance, which is similar to burg which I've just finished gearing. I was running a build with 14k finesse for a while and saw bpe rates around 5-15% with this build (wargs have the highest bpe), and then swapping a mastery essence for finesse net me an as expected 5% bpe reduction which increased dps significantly more than the lost mastery. It is also helps quite a bit with things like MT.

I have a finesse swap bracelet that has 3x finesse which replaces my 3x morale bracelet if i start seeing a lot of B/P/E/R but with the update which fixed the resists with 14k finesse I see little to no B/P/E/R.

I am using Zeal, Innocence, Honour, Fidelity and Tolerance at 19 in that build, I could also swap those around I guess to suit which ever virtues you use which obviously sound a lot superior to mine ( I do sometimes swap Fidelity out for Determination if I am not up against a reaver with their armour debuff).

You sound like you have an Elite build, I would love to be enlightened by it.

The way to look at virtues is the relative strength of the stats they give, and compare that to an essence. How much you value resistance can sway this, as resistance virtues are very strong compared to resistance essences, but that is also a very iffy stat to focus on. Most specifically though, determination and discipline will each give a warden well over the amount of stats gained by any single essence, while Fidelity gives less value than a single essence. Both of these virtues also outperform zeal. How much you value the resists is up to you, but if you don't value resistance on a 1:1 ratio to single essence stats like mastery or morale, these two and valour come out in your favor relative to Innocence and honour.

[infinitewhimsy]

Re: finesse
I've had a build with over 30% finesse, so yes that must have been random luck that your rating was exactly 30%.
The lotro - wiki has a page where you can see exactly what rating gives every % if you'd like.

Wardens have a significant number of skills that have no bpe avoidance, which is similar to burg which I've just finished gearing. I was running a build with 14k finesse for a while and saw bpe rates around 5-15% with this build (wargs have the highest bpe), and then swapping a mastery essence for finesse net me an as expected 5% bpe reduction which increased dps significantly more than the lost mastery. It is also helps quite a bit with things like MT.


The way to look at virtues is the relative strength of the stats they give, and compare that to an essence. How much you value resistance can sway this, as resistance virtues are very strong compared to resistance essences, but that is also a very iffy stat to focus on. Most specifically though, determination and discipline will each give a warden well over the amount of stats gained by any single essence, while Fidelity gives less value than a single essence. Both of these virtues also outperform zeal. How much you value the resists is up to you, but if you don't value resistance on a 1:1 ratio to single essence stats like mastery or morale, these two and valour come out in your favor relative to Innocence and honour.

Fidelity, Zeal, and Valor are all pretty comparable on Warden I think. I did the math once and they are about .9-.95 of an Essence slot, but I'd definitely use something like Tolerance before either of them. The class really is blessed in that respect, they benefit more from virtues than any other class I'd guess given they benefit from Agi Might and get 5 pts per Vit. Just another perk of being a Warden.

[spelunker]

Fidelity, Zeal, and Valor are all pretty comparable on Warden I think. I did the math once and they are about .9-.95 of an Essence slot, but I'd definitely use something like Tolerance before either of them. The class really is blessed in that respect, they benefit more from virtues than any other class I'd guess given they benefit from Agi Might and get 5 pts per Vit. Just another perk of being a Warden.

Correct. Going off the top of my head from memory, for a warden:
Determination, tolerance, and discipline are worth ~1.25 essences.
Valour, zeal, and Fidelity are worth .9-.95 essences
Compassion is worth ~.75

Innocence, honour, and charity, and even confidence are all worth over 1.75 to over 2 essences due to how high resistance values are on virtues relative to essences, but I don't think people consider 1800 resistant of equal value to 1229 mastery or 875 morale in practical applications.

[infinitewhimsy]

Resistance is a strange stat, I'd never intentionally stack it on Warden, or probably any class...but it might be worth doing on a healer now, since we are reaching the point of diminishing returns on morale/mits.

[Ethrildar]

Resistance is a strange stat, I'd never intentionally stack it on Warden

Why? I'd argue it's far more useful on a class like Warden than say, a Minstrel;

- Warden can be crippled by both repeated silences & disarms, unlike most classes which only suffer from one - Minis are only slightly hindered by one, and completely immune to the other.

- Warden is a nightmare to play with AD debuffs and power debuffs. Most other classes have minimal or no power issues comparable to the Wardens (even when heavily using DBTD). Most other classes have crucial "fast" skills or effective multi-cure skills, that don't cost ~500 power a pop. ***Adding to this and the below point, Warden's attack duration is tied to their run speed, when slowed by 40-50%, you lose a huge chunk of attack duration which is horrendous***

- Wardens are crippled by slows, most of which (when combined with melee creep (spider/warg/reaver) inherent runspeed/slow-cures/sprints) are superior to the Wardens. Resisting a slow is a pretty major advantage to a Warden.

- A single CC for a third of a second is enough time to allow a class just that 5m difference required to stop the Warden from applying any more gambits, if both players are slowed, the Warden will either take too long to catch up, or simply be out-run. (No, coffee is still bugged.)

No, the Warden isn't underpowered or in need of buffs (a power fix would be nice). However, the above are certainly reasons resist would be way more worth it on a Warden than a Mini. Still wouldn't use it though, having fought against spiders with resist at 40%, and seen resist chances of low single digits, I'd say it's pretty bugged.

[infinitewhimsy]

Why? I'd argue it's far more useful on a class like Warden than say, a Minstrel;

- Warden can be crippled by both repeated silences & disarms, unlike most classes which only suffer from one - Minis are only slightly hindered by one, and completely immune to the other.

- Warden is a nightmare to play with AD debuffs and power debuffs. Most other classes have minimal or no power issues comparable to the Wardens (even when heavily using DBTD). Most other classes have crucial "fast" skills or effective multi-cure skills, that don't cost ~500 power a pop. ***Adding to this and the below point, Warden's attack duration is tied to their run speed, when slowed by 40-50%, you lose a huge chunk of attack duration which is horrendous***

- Wardens are crippled by slows, most of which (when combined with melee creep (spider/warg/reaver) inherent runspeed/slow-cures/sprints) are superior to the Wardens. Resisting a slow is a pretty major advantage to a Warden.

- A single CC for a third of a second is enough time to allow a class just that 5m difference required to stop the Warden from applying any more gambits, if both players are slowed, the Warden will either take too long to catch up, or simply be out-run. (No, coffee is still bugged.)

No, the Warden isn't underpowered or in need of buffs (a power fix would be nice). However, the above are certainly reasons resist would be way more worth it on a Warden than a Mini. Still wouldn't use it though, having fought against spiders with resist at 40%, and seen resist chances of low single digits, I'd say it's pretty bugged.

Warden doesn't want resist because it requires other stats, Minstrel doesn't. All you really need are mits, crit, and morale on Minstrel, you actually reach a point on Minstrel where stacking these stats (morale) doesn't have a meaningful effect, conversely resistance becomes the only other way to meaningfully avoid damage/benefit. Not to mention the more morale you have, the more attacks you have a chance to resist, objectively speaking. And a Minstrel will definitely have more morale than a Warden. They also have naturally high resistance rates, and you could technically say they benefit from the other non resist stats on resist virtues.

Resisting a blight or CC skill is potentially fight changing for Minstrel. Far less so on Warden, where the debilitating effects you mention Warden would benefit so much from resisting are the duty of the Warden's group, and the Warden's functionality is in no way as important as the Minstrel's function if impeded. And then there's the fact groups wouldn't prioritize/focus a Warden, when you can self heal and DC. And Spiders have reduced resist rates from venom. Resist rates are only significant over time, in protracted fights, which reinforces all of the aforementioned.

Resistance is nowhere near as good on Warden as Minstrel, in some theoretical sense.

[Rhalin]

Alright team here is my build as of today now i know some of the essences arent supreme or even cap and yes I know that does affect the build but i still seem shy 60k mastery how could i increase my mastery but keep around 35k moral unbuffed?( even 30-34k unbuffed will sell me)
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[spelunker]

Alright team here is my build as of today now i know some of the essences arent supreme or even cap and yes I know that does affect the build but i still seem shy 60k mastery how could i increase my mastery but keep around 35k moral unbuffed?( even 30-34k unbuffed will sell me)

The Epic quest bracelet with 252 might/agi instead of the crafted one with a weaker morale/agi split.
Dropping morale essences for Pmastery/Might/Agi ones (dropping 3 will keep you around 35k and get you up to nearly 56k mastery)
Stat tomes?
What are your virtues?

[infinitewhimsy]

Get Crafted Relics for your LI. And consider using the Vit/Crit Gems instead of your current, this will let you swap the LI titles from Crit to Mastery, you will end up with a lot more Crit and about the same Mastery.

And if I were you I'd use a Finesse shield over your current.

[Rhalin]

Get Crafted Relics for your LI. And consider using the Vit/Crit Gems instead of your current, this will let you swap the LI titles from Crit to Mastery, you will end up with a lot more Crit and about the same Mastery.

And if I were you I'd use a Finesse shield over your current.

What kind of gem is it like name and stats please and currently working on shield of finesse.

[infinitewhimsy]

https://lotro-wiki.com/index.php/Rel...m_of_Endurance imo it is the best in slot gem for most classes. It's effectively a Crit Essence, while the 600 Mastery Gems are half of a Mastery Essence.

Also keep in mind, the Mastery LI titles are gated behind Fangorn rep.


Also, I note you are using the chest piece from the Osg 2 set, if that isn't just a cosmetic preference consider using the helm instead, it has 90 Vit instead of 90 fate.

[Rhalin]

The Epic quest bracelet with 252 might/agi instead of the crafted one with a weaker morale/agi split.
Dropping morale essences for Pmastery/Might/Agi ones (dropping 3 will keep you around 35k and get you up to nearly 56k mastery)
Stat tomes?
What are your virtues?

My current virtues are innocence, charity, honour, tolerance, and compassion.

[spelunker]

My current virtues are innocence, charity, honour, tolerance, and compassion.

Correct. Going off the top of my head from memory, for a warden:
Determination, tolerance, and discipline are worth ~1.25 essences.
Valour, zeal, and Fidelity are worth .9-.95 essences
Compassion is worth ~.75

Innocence, honour, and charity, and even confidence are all worth over 1.75 to over 2 essences due to how high resistance values are on virtues relative to essences, but I don't think people consider 1800 resistant of equal value to 1229 mastery or 875 morale in practical applications.

specific maths are too much effort, but if you aren't worried about the resistance (which you don't mention in the OP), Dropping Innocence, Charity, Honour, and Compassion for Determination, Discipline, Valour, and Zeal will net you over 1k pmastery and a bit of morale once you've adjusted mitigation essences to compensate.