why have the updates to fix game lag stopped

[Thorgrum]

I for one would like to take this opportunity to thank the turbine employee's who responded to this thread. Lest I remind all of you what the past was like. We had minimal contact and half of you would have been infracted for the posts you have made in this thread.

Carry on.

[Moonrager]

... One thing we would like to point out is that for everyone here saying they are submitting bug reports, we get no more than 5-10 reports per day on lag or disconnects...

I'm confused. Looking at my history of bug report email receipts which are I think almost 100% Game Crashes, I see just myself doing that for the last month. Are you counting disconnects differently than crashes? I know that may sound ignorant, but I want to verify.

2/3 - 1 Report
2/4 - 3 Reports
2/5 - 5 Reports
2/6 - 5 Reports
2/8 - 4 Reports
2/9 - 4 Reports
2/10 - 4 Reports
2/11 - 5 Reports
2/12 (Today) - 4 Reports

Now, if I'm not giving you want you need, then why haven't I been told what it is I'm missing? If all of these are just trash and no help to you, then I'm wasting my time and just flooding your bug list with trash for you to try to weed through to find data that can help. Its just crazy that you don't let people know they are not providing good bug information when they are submitting at this pace.

I'm done submitting unless I'm told what I'm submitting is worth something. To be honest, what people are posting here is EXACTLY what I'm seeing (I don't PVMP). Intermittent lag and game crashes like crazy around Minas Tirith and other level 100 areas. Occasional crashes in old school areas.

Pendragon

[LagunaD2]

I for one would like to take this opportunity to thank the turbine employee's who responded to this thread. Lest I remind all of you what the past was like. We had minimal contact and half of you would have been infracted for the posts you have made in this thread.

No offense intended to Frelorn or Vyvyanne, who I'm sure are nice people, but this isn't about etiquette, it is about getting the game to work. It's unclear that being told "things are pretty much wonderful!" when the reality is quite the opposite is a lot better than silence.

Their responses suggest to me that either they are completely out of touch with the real issues in the game, or they are trying to minimize them because they know that little or nothing can/will be done about them. Both scenarios are worrying.

[Witch0King]

So why was this not posted and said about 4 weeks ago (or even better a few years ago)?

Incredible. Whine about lack of interaction. Gets it. Still whines.

[Thorgrum]

No offense intended to Frelorn or Vyvyanne, who I'm sure are nice people, but this isn't about etiquette, it is about getting the game to work. It's unclear that being told "things are pretty much wonderful!" when the reality is quite the opposite is a lot better than silence.

Their responses suggest to me that either they are completely out of touch with the real issues in the game, or they are trying to minimize them because they know that little or nothing can/will be done about them. Both scenarios are worrying.

Lets assume for a minute they could fix the problem. Do you think they would? I do.

This leads me to conclude they cannot, so I have to deduce that they are putting the best face on a bad situation. Do I like it? Nope. Do I get it? Yes I do, ive been here a long time I know the deal. The fact we all get the freedom to actually ##### about it is a meaningful change in of itself.

There was a time when this kind of thread would never have been allowed to happen and most of us would be off for the weekend. At this point if you are still holding on to the hope that they will fix all the lag issues id say you are an awesome customer and epitomize one of the central theme's of LOTR, hope.

[Reximus]

I'm confused. Looking at my history of bug report email receipts which are I think almost 100% Game Crashes, I see just myself doing that for the last month. Are you counting disconnects differently than crashes? I know that may sound ignorant, but I want to verify.

A "crash" means that the game client closed by itself. A "disconnect" just logs you out of the game. They are almost certainly counting them as different things.

[Christian.S]

Turbine wants me to make reports for problems?

Here is a suggestion. Pay one of your employees to play this game. Yes you read it correct. Have them level up and do every quest,and along the way and have them prepare reports.

Yes I am saying actually for you to play your own creation. Then perhaps you will encounter the numerous bugs,lag,and character problems.

[ShireDweller]

A "crash" means that the game client closed by itself. A "disconnect" just logs you out of the game. They are almost certainly counting them as different things.

I'm guessing both of those are different from a "hang", where the client just sits there doing nothing (even though the connection is still active), and you have to force quit it via the task manager.

Are those considered to be fixed now too?

[Phindecano]

Ok so some clarification.

We have not stopped looking into the issues that remain. We acknowledge they are there and we continue to look into them, but we have moved form problems that everyone is experiencing and things that our server monitoring systems can show us, to problems that a subset of users is experiencing, which makes tracking down those specific problems and reproducing them to find a solution more difficult without specific data. This is why I am asking for bug reports and contacting technical support. We need data like time the problem is happening, your location in game, and your location in the real world, your ISP provider, your hardware specs, etc, to piece together a pattern we can then investigate. Forum posts tell us that you are seeing issues, but they do not give us the specifics we need to diagnose. You can tell you doctor over the phone your symptoms, but they still need to see you in person to diagnose the disease because there is other data they can only get in that way. Putting in a /bug automatically sends us the back ground data we need to match up to the symptoms you are describing. We have folks that go through those bugs every single day to parse out the information we need to diagnose the issue, but when we dont have data to work with, we are working blindly which takes more time.

Lol. So, during permanent lag in Ettenmoors during prime time should I /bug it every time any skill doesn't apply properly? Should I /bug every skill lagging? Or should I instead of playing send reports one by one?

- Oh, dear Support, I can't apply "Quick Shot" during 15 seconds.
- Oh, forget my previous ticket, now I can't apply "Heart Seeker".
- Nope, I was able to cast "Heart Seeker" after all but now I can't move during 34 seconds.
- Wow, I moved my character, forget my previous tickets, now I can't use Lugazag backdoor!

Really? Is this what you need?

God, either you don't understand what's happening in the game at all or just play stupid.

[LagunaD2]

Lets assume for a minute they could fix the problem. Do you think they would? I do.

Yes. But let's distinguish between "the problem is fixable" (by competent people; my assertion) and "the present crew can fix the problem" (your hypothetical).

A divide by zero error in code is, by definition, fixable by someone who knows what they're doing and understands the code.

This leads me to conclude they cannot, so I have to deduce that they are putting the best face on a bad situation. Do I like it? Nope. Do I get it? Yes I do, ive been here a long time I know the deal. The fact we all get the freedom to actually ##### about it is a meaningful change in of itself.

That's quite a cynical view of the situation.

There was a time when this kind of thread would never have been allowed to happen and most of us would be off for the weekend. At this point if you are still holding on to the hope that they will fix all the lag issues id say you are an awesome customer and epitomize one of the central theme's of LOTR, hope.

So your point is: be grateful that we are now free to complain about (according to you) being lied to?

If you think that's really an improvement worth crowing about, then I'd say *you* are a pretty awesome customer too...

[GerkinPickle]

Ok so some clarification.

We have not stopped looking into the issues that remain. We acknowledge they are there and we continue to look into them, but we have moved form problems that everyone is experiencing and things that our server monitoring systems can show us, to problems that a subset of users is experiencing, which makes tracking down those specific problems and reproducing them to find a solution more difficult without specific data. This is why I am asking for bug reports and contacting technical support. We need data like time the problem is happening, your location in game, and your location in the real world, your ISP provider, your hardware specs, etc, to piece together a pattern we can then investigate. Forum posts tell us that you are seeing issues, but they do not give us the specifics we need to diagnose. You can tell you doctor over the phone your symptoms, but they still need to see you in person to diagnose the disease because there is other data they can only get in that way. Putting in a /bug automatically sends us the back ground data we need to match up to the symptoms you are describing. We have folks that go through those bugs every single day to parse out the information we need to diagnose the issue, but when we dont have data to work with, we are working blindly which takes more time.

I'd say the obvious (that you're clueless) but let's be honest with each other for the first time in 5+ years. You know the state of the game, you know it's broken, you know the server merger and relocation was entirely meant to save money and was a downgrade in hardware and data costs. Just stop treating us like morons and state the truth. If you're going to go on about our ISPs, etc., when the game worked better (as bad as it was) before the server move, then I'd prefer the silent treatment we've had for a couple of weeks to be honest.

[Daguest]

I for one would like to take this opportunity to thank the turbine employee's who responded to this thread. Lest I remind all of you what the past was like. We had minimal contact and half of you would have been infracted for the posts you have made in this thread.

Carry on.

I know, and I agree, but it's not that fun to have a dev come and say your issue (which makes the game unplayable at time, or in some places) have been set to "low priority". It's basically "your issue is not that important, we prefer to focus on new content (possibly just as buggy because the lag is unlikely to fix itself)".

[MessyR]

We do get those, but what about everyone who is complaining about lag and delays. If the client does not crash, it does not automatically send us logs, hence why we want the bug reports.

Half of the reports will be null and void when we get our european datacenter setup, how close are we again on this?

[Thorgrum]

Yes. But let's distinguish between "the problem is fixable" (by competent people; my assertion) and "the present crew can fix the problem" (your hypothetical).

A divide by zero error in code is, by definition, fixable by someone who knows what they're doing and understands the code.



That's quite a cynical view of the situation.



So your point is: be grateful that we are now free to complain about (according to you) being lied to?

If you think that's really an improvement worth crowing about, then I'd say *you* are a pretty awesome customer too...

Awesome customer? No, prolific forum poster with a knack for delivering the reality of the situation in colorful prose? Absolutely.

History is a good indication of a future outcome, not the only measure mind you but a good one.

I have no indication that the lag will get better so I can move on from whining about it. If others dont want to, if they want to hope that their whining will induce a different outcome that is there choice. Im just pointing out the fact that the whining at this level would never have been permitted in the past and thus those whining should be thankful they are allowed to whine in this manner. Particularly, because the choose to be here and consume the product, they are whining about.

[Thorgrum]

I know, and I agree, but it's not that fun to have a dev come and say your issue (which makes the game unplayable at time, or in some places) have been set to "low priority". It's basically "your issue is not that important, we prefer to focus on new content (possibly just as buggy because the lag is unlikely to fix itself)".

The alternative could have been (and in the past it was) to shut the thread down and say nothing.

At least youre getting an answer, albeit not one you wanted.

[elderlygamer]

Lets assume for a minute they could fix the problem. Do you think they would?

Not necessarily. I've been testing software long enough to know that sometimes stuff that should be top priority falls near the bottom, including bugs that affect performance or functionality. Sometimes dev and management have an idea of how to fix something but there are more important things to resolve or develop. I can't begin to count the number of times I've told product/project managers that we should stop adding new functionality and instead fix existing problems, only to be told the directives were coming from higher-ups.

If there are any Turbine employees who regularly play lotro in crowded areas, they are most likely not people who are can make decisions about what gets done and when. if they were, we'd have seen better performance several years ago. At the company where I work we're constantly encourage to "eat our own dog food." I don't think that's the case with Turbine's decision makers.

I know this issue will never be resolved for pvmp players. Lag has been there too long for me to believe otherwise. After several years of hoping, only to see it get much worse, there's little reason to think things will change. But I do hope it's eventually fixed for pve players so you can keep the revenue going through the rest of the year at least.

[Macdui]

Why does this thread exist if you want people to submit tickets?

https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthr...ardware-Thread

I think perhaps telling people in that initial thread that we should be submitting tickets instead of people posting updates in that thread would have been a better way to go about it.

Can't help thinking we just getting the run around.


Turbine
Post in thread -> 2 weeks later -> file bug reports

Now are you sure it's Bug Reports or is it Tickets or is it tickets you want in two more weeks, then back to forum posts?

Well... I've been good and played in Pelennor tonight. Have submitted 10 bug reports detailing the lag, hitching, swerves, repositioning of my characters, skill lag, skill slowdown and it's been a real pain and felt like work more than recreation. I got about 2/5 of what I would have accomplished without the bug reports. But you have many /loc of where I have had issues, however it's just a tiny fraction of all the places in Pelennor where performance is degraded.

I log on these days to find none of my kin online, I'm still here, trying to help as well as try to hold you to account. If I have to report each occurrence of performance issues I find I might as well join my kin-mates.

[Macdui]

If I go into Hospital (not my local Hospital sadly) for a minor opp and afterwards the consultant tells me I have MRSA and proceeds to ask me how I might have contracted it, I'm going to wonder if he has a clue!

Before the move little conflict with our hardware/software/connection. Move to super duper new datacentre - Chaos. We didn't all change our rigs.

So, many of my bug reports detailed some hitching/lag on the roads in Pelennor. You now have the /loc as near as I could get. You have various details: my OS, Graphics card, connection. What do you do with this information? If you have to manually "stitch" the landscape in these /locs you are going to need a lot more data.

[Trixie_Me]

We are and will continue to work on resolving the issues some of you are seeing. One thing we would like to point out is that for everyone here saying they are submitting bug reports, we get no more than 5-10 reports per day on lag or disconnects. This number is actual detailed bug reports and not posts to the forums here.

We posted in the forums because you, Frelorn, created not one but two threads for us to post our issues in. Now you're telling us that the problem isn't being addressed because we have been submitting information for the past 6 weeks incorrectly? I am utterly and completely floored by both Vyvanne's and your statements in this thread.

[CM-Amenophis]

Is it possible that one reasone for the lags is simply that we have to many servers in Jersey?
I mean it was stated, at the beginning that the EU servers will move to the Datacenter in Amsterdam, so we would experience better ping timers ect (like codemasters times).
But since that plan is canceled and we are stuck in NJ too, the Servers there have to work with doulbe the amount as planed?
Sure u could just rent more servers there but i dont think that you would invest more money on the new jersey Datacenter when the EU players will leave for Amsterdam soon. Except that wont happen which we still dont know... And im absolutley sure that our Producer knows whats goin on...

[Thorgrum]

Not necessarily. I've been testing software long enough to know that sometimes stuff that should be top priority falls near the bottom, including bugs that affect performance or functionality. Sometimes dev and management have an idea of how to fix something but there are more important things to resolve or develop. I can't begin to count the number of times I've told product/project managers that we should stop adding new functionality and instead fix existing problems, only to be told the directives were coming from higher-ups.

If there are any Turbine employees who regularly play lotro in crowded areas, they are most likely not people who are can make decisions about what gets done and when. if they were, we'd have seen better performance several years ago. At the company where I work we're constantly encourage to "eat our own dog food." I don't think that's the case with Turbine's decision makers.

I know this issue will never be resolved for pvmp players. Lag has been there too long for me to believe otherwise. After several years of hoping, only to see it get much worse, there's little reason to think things will change. But I do hope it's eventually fixed for pve players so you can keep the revenue going through the rest of the year at least.

The underlying assumption being that a "fix" is in Turbine's best interest. Inherent in the feedback here is the notion that the players interest and Turbine's is the same. That might not be true and the evidence would suggest it isnt if what your saying is true.

Lets make another assumption, lets assume Turbine is completely incompetent soup to nuts (I know this is a stretch). Even then their interests wouldnt necessarily change they simply dont have an effective means to bring it to fruition. Thats likely the scenario here, but lets face it lotro is an asset that produces income. That asset has a life cycle, I dont know what is an MMO life cycle 5-10 years? So if thats true I would assume that the aged asset has already provided a return on the initial cost. The expectations of the player base seem to be singularly focused "I want what I deem to be a good playing experience" as it should be.

Turbine seems to be proceeding along their historic lines, again these conditions are not new just some additional nuances thrown into the mix. Turbine is likely making the assessment "what can I do with the resources I have to give my customers as much of what they want"

So say 20% of the existing customers have serious issues with the game now, they had them before mind you, again this isnt new. Heck lets say its 40% your still serving 60% of your customers and that might be enough revenue to cover costs. They dont love the game, you do the consumer. They love the fact that you love it and I sincerely believe they are trying to give you the best experience they can with the resources they have. Its not working out, it hasnt been for years now. Yet, people are still here, people still play.

And the beat goes on.

[Stormtower]

You describe skill lag within instances, across a server (Evernight, in this case) at peak times, as an 'outlier'?

For about an hour, during the busiest time of day during weekday evenings (around 8PM GMT), it takes approximately 3 or 4 seconds for all and any skills to activate, making numerous instances far more difficult, and some impossible.

To me, that doesn't seem like an outlier. This problem wasn't affecting the server before the move, but its now a regular occurrence on weekday nights, and lasts for longer periods on Sundays in particular.

I'll second this.

My kinship's main weekly playtime is on Sundays from noon to 4pm each week EST.

Landroval has had unacceptable skill lag in instances since the migration and it has not noticeably improved.

If this skill lag is an outlier, it's one that needs fixed quickly.

I get no lag and 45-60ms ping in other online games with generally excellent performance.

[Daguest]

The alternative could have been (and in the past it was) to shut the thread down and say nothing.

At least youre getting an answer, albeit not one you wanted.

Doesn't mean it's good. It just mean it's better.
If I cut your arm, and tell you it could have been worse because my predecessor would have cut your head, you're not going to be grateful. Yet it is an improvement.

[Beaniemooch]

We are and will continue to work on resolving the issues some of you are seeing. One thing we would like to point out is that for everyone here saying they are submitting bug reports, we get no more than 5-10 reports per day on lag or disconnects. This number is actual detailed bug reports and not posts to the forums here. We also read the posts here on the forums, but in many cases just telling us it is happening, does not really help us narrow down the issue or issues. This is why we ask for detailed bug reports, rather than just post telling us to fix it. If the solution was something simple, the team would have fixed it by now so everyone playing could have a good experience. However since it is not simple, we need as much information as we can get in these bug reports.

When someone does a CTD it is not possible to file a bug report at that time because they've crashed. When I am stuck lagging repeatedly or rubber banding it's difficult to file a bug report and I guess I thought you guys KNEW there was a problem because we kept posting there is a problem with lagging and rubber banding. Your bug report is actually a pain in the ashes but I just filed one for "frequent lagging and rubber banding". I'm not sure what I can do to reproduce this except just log in and play in the evening (or attempt to) on a regular basis. It's not something specific we can point to and say "whenever I do XYZ, ABC happens". The game runs like sh** on an intermittent basis, and there's no rhyme nor reason to it except it does it when it feels like it. It's been much, much worse since you transferred to the new data center.

I really don't know what to say if Turbine's attitude is "we aren't getting as many bug reports therefore it must be better". It doesn't get better by itself, people simply give up and stop logging in, stop placing bug reports, and stop putting up with bad performance. They. Move. On.

[Thorgrum]

Doesn't mean it's good. It just mean it's better.
If I cut your arm, and tell you it could have been worse because my predecessor would have cut your head, you're not going to be grateful. Yet it is an improvement.

Yep, that is the point with one notable addition.

Your going to get cut either way you know it going in.