Stone of the Tortoise -> Toggle Skill

[Daefareth]

Dear Dev Team,

I know a great many people who (like myself) have one or more characters capped at lower levels either temporarily to avoid outleveling regional quests or permanently in order to play instances onlevel with certain chars. Basically every server has communities or even kinships specialized on level-capped gameplay. Now all those people have to use the xp-disabling pocket item if they want to prevent further advancement. While we all think that it's cool to actually be able to stop leveling, we also feel that it is not so cool for this to occupy the pocket item slot and therefore crash setboni which would usually be available on that particular level (prominent examples being the Buth Sankas jewellery in Angmar and the Limklar jewellery, which actually takes a lot of effort to acquire in the improved blue version) and make the single items virtually useless. Also, generally fantastic loot like the gold-inlaid flask from the Tower of Orthanc is simply not usable for those people who actually play the content on a regular basis and put an effort into equipping their chars as it is.

I would therefore suggest that the xp-blocker item be removed from the game and instead a shop-exclusive toggle skill similar to the mount-speed skill be introduced instead. Every single person I have discussed this idea with so far would be willing to buy such a skill from the store in order to gain full use of their equip slots again.

[Yula_the_Mighty]

It is a great idea. It what customers asked Turbine to implement when they previewed the original implementation. What I remember the original implementation was a consumable item that gave you a temporary earn no experience point buff. This feature took a very long time to implement. Turbine had a lot of trouble getting it to work properly.

My personal opinion as always.

After screwing around for what almost two years? Turbine finally decided to rush out the Stone implementation. Once the Stone was live and on sale, Turbine walked away from the feature because it was finally done and finished. Turbine kept getting feedback to change the Stone to a toggle skill which has always been ignored.

The Stone has been out a long time. Turbine mined almost all the possible sales. Turbine lowered the price to squeeze a few more drops of milk out of the Stone. At the current very low price there is no financial incentive to open the feature up to turn it into a toggle skill. I doubt there are many potential sales that can be claimed by a Toggle skill change.

Another issue is the implementation cost. It is 10 times cheaper to do a toggle skill to start with. Now they got to rip out the Stone implementation. Put in the Toggle skill in game and in the Lotro Store. Deal with the conversion of existing Stones to toggle skills. Figure out what they are going to do about Stones that are not yet character bound. Make sure all of it works properly.

I suspect at this point in the game life cycle. Creating the implementation that we asked for originally. Will be a financial loss to Turbine. Something Turbine can't afford given the price they set the newest Quest Pack to. I suppose they could do it for a decent return on investment if the toggle skill costs 800 Turbine Points per character. You have a Stone. You have to buy a skill converter. We all raise a ruckus.

It is kind of sad looking back at this feature as a historical aspect of the game where Turbine really messed up big time.

[robbie1435]

Turbine kept getting feedback to change the Stone to a toggle skill which has always been ignored.

I feel like this is a common theme tbh.

[Zepherzaper]

Dear Dev Team,

I know a great many people who (like myself) have one or more characters capped at lower levels either temporarily to avoid outleveling regional quests or permanently in order to play instances onlevel with certain chars. Basically every server has communities or even kinships specialized on level-capped gameplay. Now all those people have to use the xp-disabling pocket item if they want to prevent further advancement. While we all think that it's cool to actually be able to stop leveling, we also feel that it is not so cool for this to occupy the pocket item slot and therefore crash setboni which would usually be available on that particular level (prominent examples being the Buth Sankas jewellery in Angmar and the Limklar jewellery, which actually takes a lot of effort to acquire in the improved blue version) and make the single items virtually useless. Also, generally fantastic loot like the gold-inlaid flask from the Tower of Orthanc is simply not usable for those people who actually play the content on a regular basis and put an effort into equipping their chars as it is.

I would therefore suggest that the xp-blocker item be removed from the game and instead a shop-exclusive toggle skill similar to the mount-speed skill be introduced instead. Every single person I have discussed this idea with so far would be willing to buy such a skill from the store in order to gain full use of their equip slots again.

great Idea and if they offered a account wide option for it it would be even better.

heck if they offered a account wide option for even the token it would be better because then you only have to pay once for the benefit to be account wide.

[Oelle]

yea, its really sad, that the stone blocks the pocket slot. pocket slot is really really nice for mitigations in middle levels... and it gives stats... the stone should not block an item slot. it should be a skill or it should work, if its just inside the inventory.

[The_Warg]

I know so many people who use the stone, and so many more who would love to buy it if it became a toggle skill.

[Tiempko]

Aye, the story of the turtle stone is a long and colorful one.

It was back when Moria came out and, with it, the level cap increased to 60. But there were folks wanting to stay at 50 for all of the content built for that level. That's when they started asking for a toggle.

Turbine was non-committal for a while, did a few surveys, and then came back a couple of years later with "No! No way! Never going to happen! Forget it!"

Then they created the store and figured that an XP disabler was something they could put in the store.

But their first attempt at an XP disabler treated XP disabling like XP accelerating - not recognizing that the two functions had entirely different uses. That XP Disabler folk would want their XP disabled for long periods of time - weeks or months or forever in some cases.

So, Turbine went back to the drawing board and gave us the Stone of the Tortoise.

For which those of us who went through those years of battle to get anything that reduced XP, we are most grateful.

[Nosdracir]

I wonder how complicated it would be to create a toggle that can only be used if you have purchased the privilege to do so from the store. The programming might be a sticking point here.

It might be easier programming to create a new equipment slot instead. Call it something like "Amulet". Change the Stone of the Tortoise to be an Amulet type. Also change the various XP boost pocket items to be amulets as well. (Not the Shield of the Hammerhand, since it is a viable cloak item as well as an XP booster.) This would benefit a larger number of players than just making a Tortoise-toggle.

Could then also add some level 100+ amulets as new high level loot you can use after the XP modifier amulets have been outlevelled. Could give the amulets new and interesting bonuses like triple Man racial Strength of Morale heal or +1 AoE targets.

[Daefareth]

I wonder how complicated it would be to create a toggle that can only be used if you have purchased the privilege to do so from the store. The programming might be a sticking point here.

Actually, such a akill already exists and is widely used: the "smell at the roses" skill which you are granted if you purchase a mount speed pack in the store that modifies the speed of all regular mounts that character owns to be 78%. From what I hear it works just fine. So there wouldn't even be such a great amount of developmental work to come up.
I suspect, however, that Yula is right and the implementation after having messed up in the first place is a path Turbine is not too eager to head down again. Having to figure out what to do with stones already purchased or how to deal with individuals who want to stick with the stone they already rightfully purchased rather than upgrading to the more useful but also more expensive skill is probably not included on their wishlist. But I'm actually quite confident that the skill would do just fine in terms of sales numbers because even people who already purchased the cheap but inconvenient stone would be very willing to buy a converter or buy the skill with a discount equalling the price they paid for the stone in the first place. The reason being that the advantage they get for upgrading isn't just one more slot but one more slot that grants them access to really cool setboni which they have absolutely no chance to access with the current stone which breaks existing sets. That makes it an extremely valuable item slot to unlock. It also restores the original value of specific quest lines and the Limklar reputation with their region, their tasks and their reputation vendors.

As for the accountwide option: I am usually a great fan of such bundles, but in this case I don't really see the point. An accountwide version would have to be really expensive in order to still pay off for Turbine (and let's face it - they're a business after all and businesses need to create profit) considering the many character slots VIPs can possibly use by now. I doubt that people would be willing to pay thousands of TP just to be able to put every single one of their characters on hold if for some reason they just so happen to feel like it. Most people only cap one or at best a few chars while playing main chars on endgame level and have a few more for crafting or item storage (and for the latter they don't really care about levelling speed).

[cdq1958]

The Smell the Roses one just sets the movement speed to a base number.

As Tiempko and Yula say, the XP disabler had a long and ugly, in a way, history. Basically they decided, in the end, to take the boost stone that they had and were selling in the Store at 495TP each if you didn't get one in a paid expansion, and set its multiplier to zero. XP boosts were timed consumables from Destiny points when I started. When the Store came in that September, Destiny points were deprecated. The store sold timed boosts only. The first pocket booster that I recall was made for Rise of Isengard, if I am remembering correctly and it had a cap. They put in another one with a higher cap for Riders of Rohan. The third pocket booster, which I think stacked with a premium pre-purchased back item also had a cap. When they raised the cap to 100, the cap on that item scaled up. What I don't know, but can check, is if that cap was raised with the current cap's increase to 105. Note that the XP booster never had its price cut.

All of that said, people have asked for toggle skills or a slider to let them permanently adjust their XP gain. I don't see that happening at this point, but one never fully knows what may happen in the future before it does happen.

[Nymphonic]

It is a great idea. It what customers asked Turbine to implement when they previewed the original implementation. What I remember the original implementation was a consumable item that gave you a temporary earn no experience point buff. This feature took a very long time to implement. Turbine had a lot of trouble getting it to work properly.

My personal opinion as always.

After screwing around for what almost two years? Turbine finally decided to rush out the Stone implementation. Once the Stone was live and on sale, Turbine walked away from the feature because it was finally done and finished. Turbine kept getting feedback to change the Stone to a toggle skill which has always been ignored.

The Stone has been out a long time. Turbine mined almost all the possible sales. Turbine lowered the price to squeeze a few more drops of milk out of the Stone. At the current very low price there is no financial incentive to open the feature up to turn it into a toggle skill. I doubt there are many potential sales that can be claimed by a Toggle skill change.

Another issue is the implementation cost. It is 10 times cheaper to do a toggle skill to start with. Now they got to rip out the Stone implementation. Put in the Toggle skill in game and in the Lotro Store. Deal with the conversion of existing Stones to toggle skills. Figure out what they are going to do about Stones that are not yet character bound. Make sure all of it works properly.

I suspect at this point in the game life cycle. Creating the implementation that we asked for originally. Will be a financial loss to Turbine. Something Turbine can't afford given the price they set the newest Quest Pack to. I suppose they could do it for a decent return on investment if the toggle skill costs 800 Turbine Points per character. You have a Stone. You have to buy a skill converter. We all raise a ruckus.

It is kind of sad looking back at this feature as a historical aspect of the game where Turbine really messed up big time.

Yeah, I agree with Yula on this one. I think it's a fantastic idea that would make a lot of people happy, but after everything that happened, I can't see Turbine touching this with a ten foot pole.


It makes me sad because Turbine could have scored some serious brownie points with it's customers.

[robbie1435]

The Smell the Roses one just sets the movement speed to a base number.

Make a toggle skill that sets XP gain to a base number maybe?

[farmhand99]

Turbine could make the toggle switch gated behind being VIP and only while you were VIP while leaving the Stone of the Tortoise for F2P. If they had the desire to do so. I don't know how many more VIP accounts there would be but this would be an answer.

[cdq1958]

Make a toggle skill that sets XP gain to a base number maybe?

After all of the work they went through? For the Smell the Roses, that number is the normal base run speed of the affected mount-pants ;P. What base number would work here without adverse side effects? I just don't see this happening at this point, but if it does, great for those who'd like it.

[robbie1435]

What base number would work here without adverse side effects?

There's already a base number for experience gain: 100%. If they can make + bonuses passive(XP boosters) they should be able to make - bonuses passive.

[siipperi]

What's exactly the problem here? Characters that are frozen are 2-5x stronger that back on their original caps, pocket item is just good enough for xp disabling purposes. You can get so much better stats atm, even without pocket item, than back on 50,60,75 caps (where is worth of frozing yourself for instances), and for landscape it's irrelevant.

[Nosdracir]

Actually, such a akill already exists and is widely used: the "smell at the roses" skill which you are granted if you purchase a mount speed pack in the store that modifies the speed of all regular mounts that character owns to be 78%. From what I hear it works just fine. So there wouldn't even be such a great amount of developmental work to come up.

Yes and no. Smell the Roses was developed as part of, and at the same time as, the Journeyman Riding skill package. Likely the J-man code sets a flag that increases mount speed and the Roses skill is a second flag that overrides the first flag.

Both are similar concepts, but are in different areas of the code. It's always easier to develop on/off mechanisms at the same time than it is to develop the "off" mechanism years after developing "on".

I suspect, however, that Yula is right and the implementation after having messed up in the first place is a path Turbine is not too eager to head down again. Having to figure out what to do with stones already purchased or how to deal with individuals who want to stick with the stone they already rightfully purchased rather than upgrading to the more useful but also more expensive skill is probably not included on their wishlist. But I'm actually quite confident that the skill would do just fine in terms of sales numbers because even people who already purchased the cheap but inconvenient stone would be very willing to buy a converter or buy the skill with a discount equalling the price they paid for the stone in the first place. The reason being that the advantage they get for upgrading isn't just one more slot but one more slot that grants them access to really cool setboni which they have absolutely no chance to access with the current stone which breaks existing sets. That makes it an extremely valuable item slot to unlock. It also restores the original value of specific quest lines and the Limklar reputation with their region, their tasks and their reputation vendors.

The above is why I suggested a new amulet slot along with conversion of XP buff/debuff items to amulets. They could also create some beneficial amulets for the new slot for players who do not want/need XP buff/debuff.

As for the accountwide option: I am usually a great fan of such bundles, but in this case I don't really see the point. An accountwide version would have to be really expensive in order to still pay off for Turbine (and let's face it - they're a business after all and businesses need to create profit) considering the many character slots VIPs can possibly use by now. I doubt that people would be willing to pay thousands of TP just to be able to put every single one of their characters on hold if for some reason they just so happen to feel like it. Most people only cap one or at best a few chars while playing main chars on endgame level and have a few more for crafting or item storage (and for the latter they don't really care about levelling speed).

Agreed.

[Daefareth]

The problem I see with an additional amulet slot (and amulets to fill it) is that it would worsen the whole char/instance balance right up to endgame challenge modes. It would make the instances even more easymode by granting even higher stats to characters who don't equip the xp-disabler amulet but rather one of the new ones you suggested (if I got that right). Apart from the Isengart instance cluster's T2C instance modes on level, character builds with those loads of trait points and the currently available equip are already ridiculously overpowered. People not bothering to form full raids/groups and rather running instances with half the team than filling up with randoms, T2C farmruns being partly staffed and doable (!) with complete strangers picked up from the world channel, the new and supposedly challenging group content not even requiring any of the new gear released along with it...I fear that an additional equipment slot + item is going to catapult this already broken balance into mere ridiculousness. No offence meant - that slot would be an easy enough and clean solution for the problem and a good idea if character/instance balance was in a better place to start with.