A quick analysis of tanks and blue bears

[Joedangod]

In a fit of boredom I decided to do a quick/rough look through all the tank classes trait trees to see if I could isolate the main issue with bear tanks (Beyond simply saying "We take too much damage!"). Interestingly enough we have many of the same type of bonuses/skills present in the more recognised tank classes; in fact, if you ignore the block part we almost seem as viable tanks as the rest. The problem arises when you look closer at the skills bears have in comparison to other classes. In the table below you can see that bears (Like all the other classes), have a bonus % to avoidances in their trait trees. This bear skill is counter (+10% evade chance with a 50% uptime), in comparison captains also have a 10% bonus to avoidances, this bonus is passive and has a 100% uptime (They also have another +8% bonus to avoidance with what I'd estimate to be about a 30% uptime at best). Whilst both classes get a bonus to avoidance, the bear one is nowhere near the amount captains get. This trend applies to most of the sections listed, bears technically have a trait for it, that trait just happens to be vastly inferior (or it only applies in bear form). I'll display the table below for those interested in the rough overview, if the tank class had good traits in other trees that were realistically applicable to a build I included them despite them not being in the main tank line. At least it is pretty clear that bears need block in blue!

Feature	Guardian	Champion	Captain	Warden	Beorning
Able to Block	X	X	X	X
Avoidance Bonus %	X	X	X	X	X
Avoidance Bonus Rating	X			X
Mitigation Bonus %	X	X		X	X
Mitigation Bonus Rating	X			X
Incoming Healing Bonus	X		X	X
Outgoing Damage Debuff	X	X		X	X
Armour Bonus	X		X		X
Critical Defence Bonus	X	X	X	X
Survival Skill	X	X	X	X	X
Crowd Control Skill	X		X	X	X
Interrupt	X				X
Forced Taunt	X		X	X	X
Morale Bubble	X	X			X
Incoming Damage Reduction		X	X
Morale Bonus		X	X		X

I imagine the main difference between bears and the other tanks would be found by analysing skills instead of trait trees, guardians and wardens have the big avoidance buffs whilst bears just have claw swipe/slam/recuperate to spam.

TL;DR
Give bears block and possibly look at buffing some skills?

[Happychappy]

I would also like to include that Beornings get less block/parry/evade than the other tank classes.

A beorning gets 3 parry per might and only 2 evade per agility with 1 point to evade per will (useless stat for melee).

Champs get 5 parry and 3 evade from might and agility and also get 3 block from might in blue line. A guardian and warden get 3 block and 4 parry and 3 evade from might and agility. Even Burglars and Hunters have Block in might lol.

Beorning only get 6 BPE from stats with Will being near useless stat for them as a melee. The other tanky classes get 7-11 BPE pet stats, far more than a beorning. Yet a beorning is in medium armour only, with no shield. It does get a self heal but so do the other tanky classes.

A beorning is way behind the rest imo. The beorning needs a rework! For a class that is not free this needs to happen now.

[ertr]

I would also like to include that Beornings get less block/parry/evade than the other tank classes.

A beorning gets 3 parry per might and only 2 evade per agility with 1 point to evade per will (useless stat for melee).

Champs get 5 parry and 3 evade from might and agility and also get 3 block from might in blue line. A guardian and warden get 3 block and 4 parry and 3 evade from might and agility. Even Burglars and Hunters have Block in might lol.

Beorning only get 6 BPE from stats with Will being near useless stat for them as a melee. The other tanky classes get 7-11 BPE pet stats, far more than a beorning. Yet a beorning is in medium armour only, with no shield. It does get a self heal but so do the other tanky classes.

A beorning is way behind the rest imo. The beorning needs a rework! For a class that is not free this needs to happen now.

While Beornings do get a bit less BPE from their stats than other classes, their stats provide more points of Physical Mastery and Tactical Mastery than any other class get. This lets them use a bit more of their item budget on defensive stats. They also (like Guardians and Wardens, but unlike any other class) get 5 points of Morale per point of Vitality.

They also have traits that increase both their Physical and Tactical Mitigations - something which the heavy armour classes don't get.


But this kind of analysis don't help much in showing how good or bad they are as tanks. For that one needs to test them in-game.

[Happychappy]

While Beornings do get a bit less BPE from their stats than other classes, their stats provide more points of Physical Mastery and Tactical Mastery than any other class get. This lets them use a bit more of their item budget on defensive stats. They also (like Guardians and Wardens, but unlike any other class) get 5 points of Morale per point of Vitality.

They also have traits that increase both their Physical and Tactical Mitigations - something which the heavy armour classes don't get.


But this kind of analysis don't help much in showing how good or bad they are as tanks. For that one needs to test them in-game.

Beornings actually do get more physical/tactical mastery than the other tank classes except the Warden, who is only very slightly behind. But they have a shield, ranged attacks and self healing. Even with increased mastery they are still not top dps or even close. There dps is good when they go bear form but only for a short duration and that's if the mobs have not been killed by someone else by the time they build wrath to go into bear form.

Beorning is a medium armour class with low BPE. A heavy armour class that has block does not need more mitigation. It costs us to trait them points too, it is not free mitigation like you get from wearing heavy armour.

Easy content and OP healing would make any class look good though. I have to work on my beorning to be a healer, a minstrel just spams one skill mostly, lol. I used to main the minstrel but it is laughably easy now.

[dftysry6dsrksk]

Beornings actually do get more physical/tactical mastery than the other tank classes except the Warden, who is only very slightly behind. But they have a shield, ranged attacks and self healing. Even with increased mastery they are still not top dps or even close. There dps is good when they go bear form but only for a short duration and that's if the mobs have not been killed by someone else by the time they build wrath to go into bear form.

Beorning is a medium armour class with low BPE. A heavy armour class that has block does not need more mitigation. It costs us to trait them points too, it is not free mitigation like you get from wearing heavy armour.

Easy content and OP healing would make any class look good though. I have to work on my beorning to be a healer, a minstrel just spams one skill mostly, lol. I used to main the minstrel but it is laughably easy now.

Very good post I totally agree with. It is just what I been saying in another topic in Beo forum.

[Determination]

I'm not sure if it was a mistake, oversight - but Wardens can span interrupts (the boot). That's not listed in your table above.

[Oelle]

if you count stun as crowd control, all tanks have crowd control. champs can even stun for 10sec aoe with their horns (only 3sec with a skill that consumes nothing, but 3>0). and champs can slow. i would count slow and stun as cc. if only mezz/root counted, less tanks would have cc^^
everyone can interrupt, even if its a base skill and not to be traited.
and champs too have a force taunt

still a nice table. and in general i agree. beornings should have block in blue. and some other buffs for tanking. they are the weakest of the avaiable tanks. which isnt bad in general. but the gap should not be as big as it is.

you might want to add a line 'can start FMs easily whenever he wants' to show, that guards are cool
or 'can break cc very often' (guards 30sec cd traitable). or 'can cure all debuffs easily very fast' (guard 4debuffs 5sec cd, champ 1 debuff 15sec, cappy 1 debuff of all group 20sec, warden 1 debuff 5sec, beorn 3 debuffs 20sec if i remember the right numbers).

[daedalusAI]

Your overview is flawed because you only compare defensive stats/attributes of a bear compared to other tanks while not considering abilities or traits.

Quick and dirty comparison to a warden:
- warden can still solo 6/12/24man group content with ease because even in blue a warden still does ridiculous amounts damage for a tank class -> as bear you have claw swipe and trash in blue with relentless maul and you only deal a fraction of the damage of a warden; ever seen a bear solo content like the kill vids in the warden section?
- warden have multiple heals and moral taps -> as bear you have recuperate and ferocious roar as your oh-s hit button
- warden has a shield and therefore more stats and chance to block -> as bear you have no shield, no block and your added %-based morale buff from worthy adversary has to be heald up every time you switch to bear

[Joedangod]

Yeah, this analysis doesn't really show anything. All I did was examine the trait trees, I ignored abilities such as the champ horn stun since it is not actually visible from the trait trees. Similar thing with warden abilities; if it's not visible from the trait trees, I didn't acknowledge it. If we really wanted to get this covered we would have to inspect the details of every ability and skill of every tank class to compare. That would be a whole lot of work so I opted for the simpler option of just trait trees for now in the hopes that it would make the problem clear.

As for ignoring damaging potential of each class? Didn't include, not the job of the tank in my opinion. Warden's get away with it since they need the dps to pull aggro, bears are fine taking it with forced taunts, guards get their threat boosting skills and captains pull via heal aggro.

[Oelle]

Warden's get away with it since they need the dps to pull aggro

They don't. they can tank with healaggro and their forcetaunt. you can tank quite well as a warden without using your bleeds and lightdots.

[siipperi]

Tbh I would take beorning tank over guardian tank to SS t2cm. Well one that knows how to trait blue beorning...

[LEGENDofALL]

Your overview is flawed because you only compare defensive stats/attributes of a bear compared to other tanks while not considering abilities or traits.

Quick and dirty comparison to a warden:
- warden can still solo 6/12/24man group content with ease because even in blue a warden still does ridiculous amounts damage for a tank class -> as bear you have claw swipe and trash in blue with relentless maul and you only deal a fraction of the damage of a warden; ever seen a bear solo content like the kill vids in the warden section?
- warden have multiple heals and moral taps -> as bear you have recuperate and ferocious roar as your oh-s hit button
- warden has a shield and therefore more stats and chance to block -> as bear you have no shield, no block and your added %-based morale buff from worthy adversary has to be heald up every time you switch to bear

Wardens are broken so I really wouldn't look at them how a class should be

[daedalusAI]

Wardens are broken so I really wouldn't look at them how a class should be

True - but if you take warden out of the equation a guard will still do way better with way more abilities, better trait trees and way more damage as a bear.

[Oelle]

True - but if you take warden out of the equation a guard will still do way better with way more abilities, better trait trees and way more damage as a bear.

and the bear is a far better damagedealer and healer than the guardian

[Joedangod]

Tbh I would take beorning tank over guardian tank to SS t2cm. Well one that knows how to trait blue beorning...

Now the real tough part of the blue beorning's life is finding more people who think that way. :P

[Happychappy]

I always imagined Beorn as a damage dealing tank, not sure where I got that impression from though. Of course in reality he was a healer .

Obviously a fat Hobbit with a board and a stick will be far stronger and tougher than a ferocious giant bear, makes sense

The best place for the Beorning is laying in front of a warm fire lol.

[Joedangod]

I always imagined Beorn as a damage dealing tank, not sure where I got that impression from though. Of course in reality he was a healer .

At the end of the day I think we need to adjust our personal visions of what the class should be to instead focus on what Turbine might actually be willing to adjust, the tiny modifications that make it work instead of large changes that would take considerable resources to do. It's a sucky viewpoint to take but I honestly don't think anything else would work, that's why I am loathe to propose major changes to redline, it's why I barely speak of yellow (it's viable). This is why I focus on blue, it has the brunt of the issues and there are simple things that could fix it. Turbine have already demonstrated they can quickly adjust BPE (they gave champs block in between BR builds and then changed their stat derivations to be more in favour of blocking by the next build) this kind of thing is clearly possible and easy for them to do which is why I want to push for it. Overhauling redline to give longer lasting bear form seems a much tougher thing to accomplish, they would likely need to edit wrath levels to accommodate this and that's a whole load of bother that I can't see Turbine touching.

At the end of the day we can either aim for an increasingly unlikely full overhaul that fixes everything or we can go for bows-for-burgs fix that might just allow the class to work (and might just be in with a shot of happening).

[Happychappy]

How's this...

BLUE LINE.

Give bears block.

Recuperate needs a bigger initial heal to make quick recovery worthwhile.

Down but not out +50 wrath in bear form is ok but maybe just the man form 20% all round is better.

Assertive roar could give a 20% max health damage buffer instead.


RED LINE.

Bestial Fury gives 5 wrath instead of 3.

Brutal Energy lowers relentless maul cool down to 15-20 seconds also.

Increase Raining blows duration.

Wrathful snapshots critical% when changing to bear form and lasts until man form is again selected. Or lasts 10-15 seconds after bear change.

YELLOW LINE.

Increase range of Mark of Grimbeorn and it should not drop with CC. It should also buff Hearten.

Tier 3 crippling roar could be Area of effect or affects 3-5 targets.

Whilst Mark of Grimbeorn is active, or anytime, Ferocious Roar grants 10 Wrath per second instead of 5 in Desperate shouts.

GENERAL.

Smoother Bear form transition.

Just a few ideas for you to rip apart lol.

[Joedangod]

BLUE LINE.

Give bears block.

Yep, we need block. No way of avoiding that the question is just what kind of block do we need? 2h, light shield or heavy shield are our options here. We lack BPE boosts in general which pretty much means it'll have to be a shield of some form.

Recuperate needs a bigger initial heal to make quick recovery worthwhile.

Here's a trait that just seems questionable, scrapping it and replacing it with something else would probably be the best thing to do but that's a lot of work and we're going for tiny fixes that might actually happen so maybe just remove the reduction on the HOT so it's a flat out buff.

Down but not out +50 wrath in bear form is ok but maybe just the man form 20% all round is better.

For this one I don't even think it would be OP to have it give both the wrath and the 20% heal regardless of form, of course if we are given the option of either then the 20% heal is the one I think we would all pick. Does seem odd that if we are going down and want a heal we have to switch out of bear form thereby reducing our morale pool by 20% just to get a 20% heal.

Assertive roar could give a 20% max health damage buffer instead.

I don't feel as if 5% bigger boost would make it any better, the morale deficit is bad enough considering you probably popped roar before going into bear form and are now 35% morale down. Perhaps a better solution would be to increase the duration to 15-20 seconds so you can actually make use of all the morale.

RED LINE.

Bestial Fury gives 5 wrath instead of 3.

I like this, a tiny change that makes a world of difference in maintaining wrath.

Brutal Energy lowers relentless maul cool down to 15-20 seconds also.

Not sure if this would affect us much, relentless maul is pretty bad unless you use roar to make it crit on every hit.

Increase Raining blows duration.

Is this one needed? I mean, we are stuck in an endless cycle of spamming thrash in bear form, would a longer duration give much of a boost? The only bonus I can see is for man form but considering we are trying to get bear form lasting longer that's pretty irrelevant.

Wrathful snapshots critical% when changing to bear form and lasts until man form is again selected. Or lasts 10-15 seconds after bear change.

I like the idea a lot, I just think it'd be a lot tougher to implement than other items on this list.

As a final note; since we are looking to make bear form last longer, we need to have expose last longer. Even if we could stick in bear form fur a full minute of attacks we would have to drop out every 15 seconds just to reapply execute. This mitigation debuff needs to last a lot longer in order to allow us to DPS in bear form.

YELLOW LINE.

Increase range of Mark of Grimbeorn and it should not drop with CC. It should also buff Hearten.

I agree with the range and CC bit; as for the hearten buff I think it would just be simpler to give it a +10% incoming healing or something like that to the target instead of making it work in conjunction with another skill.

Tier 3 crippling roar could be Area of effect or affects 3-5 targets.

How about have the -20% outgoing damage be AOE when used on mark of grimbeorn target, would function as a not-wholly-terrible survival skill for the tank then.

Whilst Mark of Grimbeorn is active, or anytime, Ferocious Roar grants 10 Wrath per second instead of 5 in Desperate shouts.

Would have to be anytime I imagine since Mark of Grimbeorn isn't linked to ferocious roar in any way. The issue here is that it is "low hanging fruit" in yellow line which means pretty much all bear lines could get it. Perhaps making the free heals last for 6 seconds would be a better alternative, has little to no impact on other trait lines and again gives a possible panic skill to the yellow bear.

GENERAL.

Smoother Bear form transition.

It'd be nice, it'd be fun and it'd probably require a large overhaul to allow for it.

That was a fun bit of quoting, we're starting to think smaller with the only "major" revision being shield use in blue so hopefully we can narrow it down to the exact minor details a bear would need to amend it's traitlines. Heck, if we refine the ideas and stick them in a proposal thread for the Devs that we keep active we might be in within the teeniest of tiniest shots of getting actual changes coming our way. Or maybe I'm just eternally optimistic.

[Oelle]

i think, its not really bad to be forced to go out of bear every 15 seconds. just the switch should not need that much time.
getting out of bear feels okay, but getting into bear just takes soooo much time where you cant do anything...

[Happychappy]

Assertive Roar I meant as a Health buffer like a Damage absorb bubble. it would give a 20% max health buffer to health. This could be shown on the health bar by changing colour. As it depletes the normal health would show.

Down but not out could easily be both, I just didn't want to get greedy lol.

Relentless Maul cooldown reduction would give us more AoE damage time.

increasing Raining blows duration would allow us to switch to man form when needed and still retain the 15% damage boost for a while. Hopefully till Wrath is back up and we can use Thrash again 3 times. All a dps boost.

10% incoming healing buff to marked target I like.

I like your crippling Roar idea more.

Desperate shouts lasting 6 seconds or so is a good idea too.

The idea is not to be in Bear form a lot longer but a little bit longer. 5 Wrath gained instead of 3 would only be a small bear form duration buff. Used with Call of the Wild could let you stay in bear form a fair while, which is good and only happens 1.30 mins - 2 mins.

Out of combat for 9 seconds or more could automatically knock you out of bear form maybe if needed.

[Joedangod]

I like the damage bubble idea for roar, it does seem weird in its current state considering you need to be healed for the extra morale before it even helps you. As for down but not out, we can be a little greedy every once in a while, right? :P

I suppose it is more aoe damage time but maul itself isn't much of a skill without a crit on every hit, got a big wrath cost and kinda buggy as well. Raining blows lasting in man form would be reasonable as well.

As for the knocking you out of bear form when not in-combat bit; it'd be far too much of an inconvenience on blue, I do a lot of pulls initially in bear form and being unable to hop between forms at will before a fight would weaken tanking further.

I am wondering what you think of the shield use though. For obvious reasons bears can't get warden shields so that's ruled out, we also lack BPE so 2h block would be pretty horrible as well unless the stat derivations got massively buffed. Between heavy and light is tough and I'm just wondering if I'm not being too greedy thinking heavy is the way to go, bears get virtually no crit defence buffs that'll affect man form, same for armour and the BPE on heavy shields is that little bit better still. We also share guards stat priorities so that's not an issue. What do you think should be the suggestion if I ever get around to making that "Minor changes that might solve all the issues" thread that I'm hopeful for? :P

[Happychappy]

I am not sure how to implement block yet, will need to think on it some more.

But I do not see Beornings using a shield in my imagining of them. The only suggestion I can make is add Block rating and Crit defence rating at least to the Carving. The crit defence would only be a small buff to all forms, nothing overpowered.

The blue line could get Block and maybe 10% ranged mitigation or % melee mitigation?

[Joedangod]

Heavy shields give 10% ranged mitigation as well. Carvings do have crit defence, if you get a good passive roll you get around 1k cirt defence on it regardless of form. As for shields fitting bears, it'd only be tankline (yellow bears are already way too tough) and I imagine it makes as much sense as dual wielding i.e the bear just throws the shield aside when shifting forms.

[Oelle]

imo, bear tanking is more like champ tanking, so i would totally add 2h block.
both are (should be) primarily damagedealers and champs power jumps up and down just like beorns wrath (okay, little slower and as its power, you can maybe keep it up with fate and reggfood and stuff... but if you just level and use what you get, champs power goes down fast and back up fast too (with 40s cd))

and bear mainstats are bad, just rework them, so might gives reasonable amounts of block+parry and agi gives parry and evade, just like on any other tank class! with the same amount! and not just half -.-