[Nerving] Hunter's DPS

[CalienX]

Hey there,

how are you feeling about hunter's DPS, especially compared to other classes.
Yes, RKs have a very high DPS and are much more better than hunters, but how about Champs?

I really love to play my hunter, but nowadays i have a problem to beat my own champ.

Would be happy about some external views about DPS

[Aestivan]

Having taken some time away from the game and returned, I have been finding Hunter a tad less effective than I remember the class being. I'd say it's about on par with my Champion, but left utterly in the dust by my Minstrel (Red line, Melody stance). Which is nice for playing my Mini, but makes me sad for my Hunter which is, in theory, my main.

So yes, I think Hunters could use a bit of a buff.

On the other hand, through several MMOs on several classes, I am used to this being a cyclical thing - for a while a class will be OP, then get nerfed into the Second Age, then get a bit of a boost - it never seems to find a happy resting point where everything is balanced.

It looks like Burglars are next in line for a serious round of improvements. Perhaps Hunter is on the list at some point after.

[Oelle]

as long as one has the 4set osgiliath bonus, i feel its okay. till then, hunters dps is a little weak imo.
still, hunters burst damage is really nice. and its range, too. not many classes can do 50k damage before the enemy reaches melee without kiting.

[RicoFTW]

Imho hunter still have the best ST burst damage. But yeah I prefer my warden in any instance/raid except from Flight CM where hunter is great for its range and burst. They either have to nerf hard RKs, wardens and yellow champs a lot and/or boost hunter alot.

Narthrivor - r15 hunter of Laurelin

[Aedfrith]

Imho hunter still have the best ST burst damage. But yeah I prefer my warden in any instance/raid except from Flight CM where hunter is great for its range and burst. They either have to nerf hard RKs, wardens and yellow champs a lot and/or boost hunter alot.

Narthrivor - r15 hunter of Laurelin

The partial evade revamp is a further nerf to hunters.

We need love particularly in sustained fights, perhaps further ability to bypass resistances - some suggestions:

- Archer's Mark critdef debuff increases or stacks
- Pen-Shot crit debuffs enemy mitigations for x seconds against all attacks - can stack
- Heartseeker crit reduces armour (maybe a devastate makes this permanent?)
- Blood Arrow crit reduces resistance

and making yellow skills more mastery-dependent so it's not just a moors trololo thing.

[Warmutkan]

While the person behind the keys is still a factor, my hunter cannot compete with DPS-oriented classes being played well.

Boosting hunter DPS (such as raw damage output) would solve this, but the problem that would bring to the table is even more firepower, which for stronger groups means another drop in the amount of challenging content. To misquote WLM King, "Boost DPS if necessary, but not necessarily boost DPS."

[Gabli]

The partial evade revamp is a further nerf to hunters.

It is also a strong nerf to Burglars and Champions.

The thing is, the dev diary states :

"enemies with high block, parry, and evade ratings will generally take fewer crits unless you're attacking from behind."

and

"which means that there will be a pretty minimal effect on the number of crits that you get as long as your stay behind your enemies"

The fact is that this is plain wrong, so I start to believe that devs have no idea how their game works.
And also that they do not want physical dps to be on par with tactical ones.

- Archer's Mark critdef debuff increases or stacks

They could start by making it work at all, as it currently has literally no other effect that putting an icon in the enem's vitals.

[RicoFTW]

I would also like to see some ballance between induction and focus skills. While we have literally no focus damage tools, we have s**t loads of induction ones. Nice idea in my opinion would be to make just one crit multiplier legacie (like any other class) - focus+induction at once and then add a focus damage legacie with at least same % as induction ones. I wonder why do hunters need 2 crit multiplier legacies while not having any sort of focus damage ones (except the multiplier). It's like if champs only had red or yellow legacies or rks or wardens etc.

[icefriend]

According to the latest info from lotro stream changes to hunter are... not coming any time soon.Supposedly a guardian revamp is planned for the next update (I guess somebody was impressed by that fornost tanking video), then some time in the future burglars are set to get some love (fair enough), then maybe they're gonna look into RK dps... So you might as well reroll to your favourite flavour of the month (more like flavour of 3 years) class. On the bright side, a well played hunter is still enough for whatever content there is in the game.

And also that they do not want physical dps to be on par with tactical ones.

oh yea, the fact that rks ignore partial evades while other dps classes suffer was brought up too. I don't think the devs on stream even understood what the problem was, shrugged it off like it was nothing.

[Chickyguts]

I agree with most everything that everyone has posted in here except that hunters are still enough for whatever content. I have not seen a hunter in a SS T2C successful run yet. It is always rk's and wardens for deeps with a few LM's. Dps is king now instead of mechanics and strategy, and turbine has let the non pay-for classes fall by the wayside. Balance please.

According to the latest info from lotro stream changes to hunter are... not coming any time soon.Supposedly a guardian revamp is planned for the next update (I guess somebody was impressed by that fornost tanking video), then some time in the future burglars are set to get some love (fair enough), then maybe they're gonna look into RK dps... So you might as well reroll to your favourite flavour of the month (more like flavour of 3 years) class. On the bright side, a well played hunter is still enough for whatever content there is in the game.



oh yea, the fact that rks ignore partial evades while other dps classes suffer was brought up too. I don't think the devs on stream even understood what the problem was, shrugged it off like it was nothing.

[dselden]

I agree with most everything that everyone has posted in here except that hunters are still enough for whatever content. I have not seen a hunter in a SS T2C successful run yet. It is always rk's and wardens for deeps with a few LM's. Dps is king now instead of mechanics and strategy, and turbine has let the non pay-for classes fall by the wayside. Balance please.

Although hunter isn't top dps atm, it's extremely easy to get SS T2C with a hunter in it if you have a good group. Might lose 5-10 seconds compared to a rk, but it isn't really an issue when most groups who run it regularly have at least 30s left on the timer for every run.

[Constrictions]

What are people getting as far as DPS during SSt2C?

I'm seeing most runekeepers consistently getting between 12-14k DPS on average (That is, on the side bosses). I have no doubts that some would be able to boost this up significantly.

I haven't taken my hunter in, but I'm assuming I could probably expect 10-12k on average?

[Gabli]

What are people getting as far as DPS during SSt2C?

I'm seeing most runekeepers consistently getting between 12-14k DPS on average (That is, on the side bosses). I have no doubts that some would be able to boost this up significantly.

I haven't taken my hunter in, but I'm assuming I could probably expect 10-12k on average?

That is going to depend a lot on groupe make-up. Though I have been mostly playing as tank (guardian) lately, I managed to go there with my Hunter for a few runs.
The group make-up was :
- Guardian (tank)
- Minstrel (healer)
- Captain (dps)
- Rune-Keeper (dps)
- Champion (dps - red trait*)
- Hunter

I had Blade Brother for Mardil, and then it was given to the RK for Eärnil.



Numbers were usually between 16k and 18k DPS on Mardil, and between 11 and 12k on Eärnil (less if the captain could not reset Ooathbreakers)
I believe that RKs I play with are usually close to 22-24k on Eärnil (if OBs reset) and somewhere around 14k on Mardil.


*yes, I know it's without a doubt better to have the champ in yellow line for the Rend armour debuff. I don't get to choose how people want to trait however, especially when we still allways have ~20-40s left on the challenge timer.

[ChromiteSwiftpaw]

Gabli, Are you using the Ranged Skill Evade Chance Modifier legacy on your bow? If so, can you show what legacies you have on your bow? Curious as to what you dropped if you do use it.

[icefriend]

Numbers were usually between 16k and 18k DPS on Mardil, and between 11 and 12k on Eärnil (less if the captain could not reset Ooathbreakers)
I believe that RKs I play with are usually close to 22-24k on Eärnil (if OBs reset) and somewhere around 14k on Mardil.

Aye this seems about right. From the last few runs (only Mardil, Eärnil is steadily 10-11ish): 1 2 3 4

Although we tend to do the last boss with an offtank, so it's a bit slower (no blade brother, short oathbreakers). Still plenty of time for the challenge nevertheless.

[SpicyMacHaggis]

Aye this seems about right. From the last few runs (only Mardil, Eärnil is steadily 10-11ish): 1 2 3 4

Although we tend to do the last boss with an offtank, so it's a bit slower (no blade brother, short oathbreakers). Still plenty of time for the challenge nevertheless.

Curious: why the offtank when you have a LM in group?

[Elurai]

What are people getting as far as DPS during SSt2C?

I'm seeing most runekeepers consistently getting between 12-14k DPS on average (That is, on the side bosses). I have no doubts that some would be able to boost this up significantly.

I haven't taken my hunter in, but I'm assuming I could probably expect 10-12k on average?

This seem very low imo, our Rks do more on Mardil and much more on Eärnil.

Mine (and I am a rather week RK compared to our mains) does 14-22k on Mardil and 25-40k on Eärnil. Not sure what hunters it is just a little slower but not much, rly.

[Despotis]

The only way to have a hunter in a SS group is by also having a RK and/or LM for the fire mitigation debuffs and the hunter running fire oils. The difference made using the -fire mitigation debuffs is absurd.

[Gabli]

Gabli, Are you using the Ranged Skill Evade Chance Modifier legacy on your bow? If so, can you show what legacies you have on your bow? Curious as to what you dropped if you do use it.

I have slotted the Evade legacy recently (after the screenshot was taken).
As to what legacy I droped, it is not what you might expect since I have two bows that I swap in-combat : the first for most skills and the second for skills with bleeds (Heart-Seeker, Barbed Arrow and Exsanguinate) and Burn Hot.
Bow 1 :
1- Induction Bow Critical Multiplier
2- Induction Bow Damage
3- Ranged Skill Evade Chance Modifier
4- Focus Bow Critical Multiplier
5- Quick Shot Damage
6- Swift Bow Damage
7- Agility

Bow 2 :
1- Induction Bow Critical Multiplier
2- Induction Bow Damage
3- Focus Bow Critical Multiplier
4- Hunter Damage Over Time
5- Heart-Seeker Damage
6- Agility
7- Burn Hot Damage

I have actually evaluated the impact of most legacies on my dps and will do a thread about it when I'll have the time.
Since about 70% of the damage I make with the second bow is unavoidable (Heart-Seeker), I don't have the Evade legacy on it.

The only way to have a hunter in a SS group is by also having a RK and/or LM for the fire mitigation debuffs and the hunter running fire oils. The difference made using the -fire mitigation debuffs is absurd.

That is, in my opinion, on of the current issues of the Hunter. Almost every other dps class has efficient tools to improve the fellowship/raid 's total dps : Rend (Champion), Mystifying Flames/Molten Flame (Rune-Keeper), Reveal Weakness (Burglars), Ancient-Craft/Warding Lore/... (Lore-Master), ...
Hunters have "Archer's Mark" to debuff Critical Defence, that as far as I know has been buged since day 1. I'm not even sure PvE mobs have critical defence in the first place.

[legofreak11]

Curious: why the offtank when you have a LM in group?

Because we had an offtank when we got it the first time. And no matter how many times I tell them it would be faster to just have the 2nd cappy full red and let me cc everything into oblivion, they continue to stick to what has worked in the past.

[Gabli]

Hunters have "Archer's Mark" to debuff Critical Defence, that as far as I know has been buged since day 1. I'm not even sure PvE mobs have critical defence in the first place.

Just did a little test with my Guardian on Lintanar, in T1.
I used Shield Blow, Bash and Shield-Smash as they all have fixed damage value.
Considering I had +20,9% to critical magnitude from my critical rating value.

Target : Stangard's training dummy	Shield-Blow	Bash	Shield-Smash (+150% extra critical magnitude)
non-critical hit	2679	2509	5573
critical hit (IG data / calculated value)	4578 / 4578.4	4287 / 4287.9	17882 / 17883.8
devastating hit (IG data / calculated value)	5918 / 5917.9	5542 / 5542.4	20669 / 20670.3

Target : Lintanar - T1	Shield-Blow	Bash	Shield-Smash
non-critical hit	1357	1271	2823
critical hit (IG data / expected hit with 0% critical defence)	1559 / 2319.1	1460 / 2172.1	7476 / 9059.0
devastating hit (IG data / expected hit with 0% critical defence)	2237 / 2997.6	2095 / 2807.6	8888 / 10470.5
Critical Defence	56.00%	55.99%	56.04%

This mob, in T1, has 56% critical defence. So assuming it is derived solely from Critical Defence rating, a non-buged fully tiered Archer's Mark (-4242 Critical Defence) would be equivalent to roughly +10% critical magnitude against the target.
It's a shame that, to my knowledge, this has not yet been fixed.