Update 18.2 Burglar Changes

[dwarfThar]

@Spilo
Of course those are respectable numbers, but those T1 fights are fights that favour a burglar extremely. Low mitigations, short bursts.
The thing is burgs burst down T1 bosses with 40k+ DPS - RKs do the same with T2 bosses. Sammy or anything along those lines indicates nothing regarding class balance imo.

On Crickhollow my Burglar's name is Dagorfast Greenwalker. I only play that toon. I don't run scripting on my machine for outside purposes but when I see the combat log I can see my numbers are down. My rotation starts with stealth, reveal weakness, distract, cunning attack, gambler's advantage, subtle-stab, double-edged strike, exposed throat, IFA and then deeper into it. And of course I'm always trying to hit from behind but we know that's easier said than done.

Some things that caught my eye here: IFA shouldn't be pressed after going through the crit chain, you want to keep that buff up and running for dps. So the general idea would be: Whatever you use from stealth -> IFA -> DPS skills -> IFA consuming skill -> IFA -> DPS skills -> ...
Speaking of the crit chain - why do you waste one crit chain opener by going GA, DES, ET? You are missing Flashing Blades somewhere.

P.S.: Coup de Grace never had a positional damage multiplier, you can launch it right to their face.

[Spilo]

@Spilo
Of course those are respectable numbers, but those T1 fights are fights that favour a burglar extremely. Low mitigations, short bursts.
The thing is burgs burst down T1 bosses with 40k+ DPS - RKs do the same with T2 bosses. Sammy or anything along those lines indicates nothing regarding class balance imo.

Which is why I've said numerous times that T2 stuff is where Burgs struggle, mostly due to lack of mit penetration (especially with the changes to Location is Everything). The reason I posted the Sammy parse is to show that T1 DPS is more than enough.

[CookieCutter]

Is there a burg dev ? or are notes passed on used toilet paper by all the other freep devs to the creep dev and then he just ''rolfs'' out some more troll update ? (i know this ones a joke)

[daedalusAI]

Is there a burg dev ? or are notes passed on used toilet paper by all the other freep devs to the creep dev and then he just ''rolfs'' out some more troll update ? (i know this ones a joke)

Turbine has devs?

[Oelle]

Is there a burg dev ? or are notes passed on used toilet paper by all the other freep devs to the creep dev and then he just ''rolfs'' out some more troll update ? (i know this ones a joke)

no, there is no burg dev.
there is not even a class-balance dev.
or even a class-relevant stuff dev.
if there was one single person in turbine team thats only job is to keep classes in a certain balance, he should have been fired for not doing his single job and not exist anymore. so, there can't be one :P

there are just several devs that work on several topics and from time to time get the job to change something class-related. they just do it and go on with other stuff. at least, it has to be this way, if you look at what we get.
in the end, nothing is wrong with that approach. just if they'd have someone that has balance in his mind and has a responsable spot in the team and has the ability to tell the devs to do this or that. or if they'd listen to the community, think about the suggestions and put one weak (like a half day per month, or twice yearly 3 days in a row) per year of dev-work into balancing. there should be many changes possible with a weak of dev-time. at least, most balance-related things are just number-changing. giving out a nerf to rend debuff or some RK spells can't take more than a half of an hour, if the database is in any way working. just finding the right spot and changing a number. nothing more than this (plus testing on BR, but thats no dev-worktime).

[dagorironfist]

Some things that caught my eye here: IFA shouldn't be pressed after going through the crit chain, you want to keep that buff up and running for dps. So the general idea would be: Whatever you use from stealth -> IFA -> DPS skills -> IFA consuming skill -> IFA -> DPS skills -> ...
Speaking of the crit chain - why do you waste one crit chain opener by going GA, DES, ET? You are missing Flashing Blades somewhere.

P.S.: Coup de Grace never had a positional damage multiplier, you can launch it right to their face.

You're right, there's a missing flashing blades in between subtle stab and DES. When I run red line, my current rotation runs: Stealth, Distract, CA, GA, subtle stab, flashing blades, double-edged strike, exposed throat, provoke, aim, cdg, IFA and work my way through. I will also toss in a Surprise Strike after the cdg with crit chain skills running with position and then launch an IFA after that. I should have fired up LOTRO to make sure but I was working from memory as it's been about a month since I was inside an instance. No one wants to take a Burglar, even on the featured instances. Well except Hall of Night but that one's hilarious. No excuse mind you but my regular "rotation" of late on Crickhollow has been drink some coffee to run fast, hammer back a Bullroarer's Brew and watch the world go green for five minutes. Smoke a pouch of Dragon's Breath pipe-weed. Smoke a pouch of Eagle's Nest pipe-weed. Ohhhhh pretty flying things in cloud formation!!! Throw something at someone. Throw another something at someone. Smoke a pouch of Dragon's Breath pipe-weed. Smoke a pouch of Eagle's Nest pipe-weed. More pretty flying things! Cast a line. Catch a fish. Wash, rinse, repeat. It's been a lot on the social side of things lately seeing as I haven't been able to get into any of the new 3per or 6per content on my server since it went live. On a positive note on that end I've gotten a lot of those social deeds ranked up and completed. But this summer festival will be a total wash for me.

In pvmp action I strive to always keep position when I can for everything else but since I gave up my VIP, no more Moors for me.

@Spilo, I'll give you that all of the old content prior to U18 on T1 is fine for a Burglar, and I guess I should have been clearer so I'll own that. But that's all of the old stuff for which we were already fine to run. And we're in total agreement on no one wanting to take a Burglar on T2 content, new or old. However on Crickhollow no one is taking Burglars (or Hunters) on any of the new runs since U18 went live, T1 or T2. Time after time, it's always, I'll hold a space for you if you have a captain, guard, mini, warden or RK. What's worse is the sucky reality is that developers have been orienting the recent group content towards needing some form of AoE offensive skills, which makes taking a Burglar a wasted space on that 3per content. And seeing how long Silent Streets took, I can also see why people don't want to take a Burglar when a RK can mow em all down stupid quick. Like I said in this new content, Burglars (and Hunters) are just wasted space. The Moors is just as bad. I don't believe the blue names when they say they are going to work on the Burglar. They have just nuked the class so badly, they probably don't even know where to start.

[LegendOfKamikazee]

The problem is all 3-6 man content nowadays is more suitable to AOE classes. Why take a burg when a champ or warden etc is much better at the job.

In 12 man a burg is great for the reveal weakness skill and if in yellow the additional debuff.

I do believe burglar single target DPS is fine, so I do not know how turbine will fix the burg unless they give AOE skills. This is my view but be a disaster.

[Oelle]

The problem is all 3-6 man content nowadays is more suitable to AOE classes. Why take a burg when a champ or warden etc is much better at the job.

In 12 man a burg is great for the reveal weakness skill and if in yellow the additional debuff.

I do believe burglar single target DPS is fine, so I do not know how turbine will fix the burg unless they give AOE skills. This is my view but be a disaster.

in the end, thats the case. they could just increase the ST dps to surpass the lack of aoe...
kind of fair imo: no aoe -> huge ST. rk, champ, warden, hunter all have nice aoe in addition to their good ST dps. i burg has to stay with only ST, it should be high.
letting tricks and trickconsumes in yellow be always/toggled aoe on the other hand, would not be that crazy much op and still viable. tricks do like 4k dmg per target, consumes can do 20k while with ~15sec cd. spreading cunning attack bleeds might be a way to deal with the problem, too. still, cunning attack alone does like 2k dps plus 0,5k per standard version, where you have to be lucky to get it stacked. not the biggest aoe either.

imo, ST dps could get a buff like allowing all types of CA to stack always. would make burgs dps better without increasing their already strong burst, mostly in red, but also in other lines.
allowing CA to be spread like cappies do with their bleed in red or guards do/did with radiate (mechanic available for copy&paste) OR allowing tricks to be aoe (not just once per minute via trickster, still, mechanic exists) would give some decent but not op aoe. i think, both ways lead to somewhere like 1/3 of what a champ does. and it does not have to be 10 targets. 5 is fine.

and it would be nice to be able to stack 3 tricks or 2 bluelinedebuffs regularly.

(obviously, all changes should be tested on bullroarer before getting released)

[Valkrist]

However on Crickhollow no one is taking Burglars (or Hunters) on any of the new runs since U18 went live, T1 or T2. Time after time, it's always, I'll hold a space for you if you have a captain, guard, mini, warden or RK. What's worse is the sucky reality is that developers have been orienting the recent group content towards needing some form of AoE offensive skills, which makes taking a Burglar a wasted space on that 3per content. And seeing how long Silent Streets took, I can also see why people don't want to take a Burglar when a RK can mow em all down stupid quick. Like I said in this new content, Burglars (and Hunters) are just wasted space. The Moors is just as bad. I don't believe the blue names when they say they are going to work on the Burglar. They have just nuked the class so badly, they probably don't even know where to start.

Just yesterday, I asked to join a Throne T1 and was told they were full. Ten seconds later, they advertised for 3 Champions...

I get turned down for content every single day as a Burglar. I am forced to have secret characters, whom I do not reveal to anyone, in order to do content while hoping that, sometimes, people will take pity on me and have my Burglar along, not knowing about the other characters. If they knew, they would insist I bring them instead.

As poor as the general perception of Burglars is, the truth is they are significantly worse than even that. Very few fully appreciate the benefit of being able to act from range. This was newly reinforced to me on an attempt on the Oliphaunts on Throne T2. Disable having only a 15 meter range and Riddle a 20 meter range is crippling in that battle.

[Ewie]

Does Burglars need help - Yes but it is not the doom and gloom everyone make out to be,

I join lots of pugs / T1 and T2 and have completed all the new content , If you have a well geared burglar and know how to play it , there is nothing keeping you from completing all these content, have been away for a few years , and back the last few months so had to gear up my burglar again, yes we lack a bit of dps over longer fights, I mean depending of the group you are with none of the content take much longer, longest is the trolls in Quays, but have done this with a LM heal, Red Burg and Champion, SS T2C with a champ, rk, Captain and Burglar, and still had 45 sec left with the challenge completed, If you learn how to play positional, dps is still just as viable as always, in Raid you are needed for your debuffs and not dps,
and knowing when to do what.

Yes extra few % in DPS would be nice , but this have not kept me from joining groups / pugs / etc.

If you don;t get groups form them and get your gear up.

[Hurtful]

Does Burglars need help - Yes but it is not the doom and gloom everyone make out to be,

I join lots of pugs / T1 and T2 and have completed all the new content , If you have a well geared burglar and know how to play it , there is nothing keeping you from completing all these content, have been away for a few years , and back the last few months so had to gear up my burglar again, yes we lack a bit of dps over longer fights, I mean depending of the group you are with none of the content take much longer, longest is the trolls in Quays, but have done this with a LM heal, Red Burg and Champion, SS T2C with a champ, rk, Captain and Burglar, and still had 45 sec left with the challenge completed, If you learn how to play positional, dps is still just as viable as always, in Raid you are needed for your debuffs and not dps,
and knowing when to do what.

Yes extra few % in DPS would be nice , but this have not kept me from joining groups / pugs / etc.

If you don;t get groups form them and get your gear up.

Comparatively speaking, it is every bit the doom and gloom most make it out to be. While burglars can and do complete all content in the game, the burden lies with the group/kin members to stick it out with the burg in lieu of another class that can do it easier/quicker/with less overall risk to the group, given equal player skill. People linking and chatting about burg parses as the class being fine are often linking one of the following: Parses that are insanely short in duration or so obviously skewed to maximize the burg's dps in extremely favorable conditions; Parses from random t1 content or old (and improperly scaled) t2 content. The burg is fully exposed when placed in the toughest content available (aside from a limited debuffing role in the new raid). I regularly talk to burgs who cannot get invites, and when they do just cannot complete the content. In the scenario you mentioned, the group that has 45 seconds left on the challenge could likely still complete that challenge with the 6th member missing completely from the group. The group that is struggling to make the 2 min timer is likely to be only hindered by placing a burg in that last slot. One cannot solely look at his/her own experiences as justification that a class is fine.

[Valkrist]

I join lots of pugs / T1 and T2 and have completed all the new content , If you have a well geared burglar and know how to play it , there is nothing keeping you from completing all these content, have been away for a few years , and back the last few months so had to gear up my burglar again, yes we lack a bit of dps over longer fights, I mean depending of the group you are with none of the content take much longer, longest is the trolls in Quays, but have done this with a LM heal, Red Burg and Champion, SS T2C with a champ, rk, Captain and Burglar, and still had 45 sec left with the challenge completed, If you learn how to play positional, dps is still just as viable as always, in Raid you are needed for your debuffs and not dps, and knowing when to do what.

Wardens can solo Harlond T2C. A Burglar could join the instance with the Warden, stand on the docks while the Warden completes the instance, and 'complete' it as well. It does not mean anything, as Hurtful demonstrated so well above.

Whether or not a Burglar's group is successful in these endeavors is almost entirely dependent on the quality of the other players with the Burglar. Each class has both a range of potency due to its player's skill and a level of potency determined by the overall power and abilities of the class applied to the current context. Classes like Wardens have an extreme range of potency dependent on the player's skill, and the Burglar fits into that category as well. The difference is that the overall power of the Burglar class, within the current context of the game, is so diminished that even the most skilled players can only make a mediocre contribution to their group's success at the very most. There are no situations where someone is going to say, "Awesome, Burglar! You saved us there!" or "Without you, Burglar, we never would have made it through." Just typing that there had me in stitches it is so ridiculous

This is the state of the Burglar class currently.

If you don;t get groups form them and get your gear up.

I appreciate the suggestion, but this is, at best, treating the symptom rather than the cause. Should there really be a class that requires both the ability and the willingness of its players to lead groups just in order to participate in group content? You are limiting that class to a very small percentage of players in that case. Virtually every serious group player is going to demand that the leader use voice in voice chat. I do not use voice when playing my Burglar for a number of reasons.