Burglars-They Deserve More Love

[PupsIsMyDog]

Okay, so this is my first time posting and I hope I do it right. I started out with a burglar and have become quite accustomed to using him. He is really tough, and just as good if not better than most other classes. I hear a lot of people though ranting about how weak burglars are or how tough they are to play. But the truth is that they are just as hard and just as strong as anyone else. There was one guy that was right down hating on me because I was a burglar. I devote this thread to talking about burglars and giving them the love they deserve. I'm pretty experienced with them, so I would be glad to answer your questions about them. and if you have been playing as one for a long time, I'd like to hear what you have to say as well. so here we go. Ask away.

[Spilo]

As I've mentioned a few dozen times, Burglars only truly lack in T2 contribution in 3 and 6 mans. They need better mitigation penetration, an ability to spread Bleeds via Dust, some form of power restore, a few bugs fixed (Flashing blades first and foremost) and a few other things fixed (Ready and Able CD extended to 30 minutes, Provoke given a 10s cooldown).

In terms of t1 contribution and raid contribution, they do very well in the former (in my glass build of around 95k mastery, I am nearly always the highest damage contributor on Featured Instance dailies in my PUGs) and are almost required in the latter (at least in the new raid).

[PupsIsMyDog]

I personally think burglars are good just the way they are. People just need to know how great they really are. I don't know if this is the case on all servers, but a lot of burglar hate goes in Crickhollow.

[HebnesO]

As I've mentioned a few dozen times, Burglars only truly lack in T2 contribution in 3 and 6 mans. They need better mitigation penetration, an ability to spread Bleeds via Dust, some form of power restore, a few bugs fixed (Flashing blades first and foremost) and a few other things fixed (Ready and Able CD extended to 30 minutes, Provoke given a 10s cooldown).

In terms of t1 contribution and raid contribution, they do very well in the former (in my glass build of around 95k mastery, I am nearly always the highest damage contributor on Featured Instance dailies in my PUGs) and are almost required in the latter (at least in the new raid).

It's funny when you don't even read OP's post before you reply with your ####ty suggestions.

[Spilo]

It's funny when you don't even read OP's post before you reply with your ####ty suggestions.

Point of the post was that I agree with the OP. Shoo, fly.

[dagorironfist]

I personally think burglars are good just the way they are. People just need to know how great they really are. I don't know if this is the case on all servers, but a lot of burglar hate goes in Crickhollow.

The only thing in this post I'll give you is that since U18 on Crickhollow, there has been some hard core jackholes treating people who play Burglar characters like trash. That's the only thing.

You may think Burglars are good just as they are but I have played a Burglar on Crickhollow since Sept 2013 and I can confidently say that no Burglars are NOT good just the way they are. There is a lot wrong with them. They may be fine on landscape content, but every class is fine on landscape content as it plays to all character classes. All new instance content requires some offensive AoE skills and Burglars are a single-target DPS class. Our positional damage has been nerfed big time (you can thank an idiot developer for screwing that up). This is the class with the worst power regeneration abilities. Fellowship manoeuvres are completely unnecessary outside of old capped content (i.e. Dragioch) that no one runs anymore. Blue line tricks don't stack. Yellow line Burglar... well their debuffs are meh at best. Burglar mounted combat is hilarious. And by hilarious I mean hilariously brutal. When you can do more damage off the horse than you can do on the horse, that says something and none of it good. On T2 content, Burglars are effin awful to bring along. Why would a group take a Burglar on T2/T2C content when a Warden, RK or Captain can do all a Burglar can, but faster and with more punch? And the worst part is there are tons and tons and tons of Burglar players who have been playing longer than I have who will tell you that Burglars have gotten worse, especially since the Helm's Deep expansion and the introduction of the three trait trees.

Seriously man, did you even bother to read this sub-forum and others and fail to notice multiple threads pointing to how broken the class is? Have you not read the multiple threads in this sub-forum alone that have pointed out how to fix the numerous problems within the class? Have you not seen in other numerous other threads the requests for class balance for Burglars and Hunters? Because if you have, then you would not say that Burglars are perfect the way they are.

@Spilo and I will agree that on most T1 content (with the exception of all the new Pelennor and raid content) a Burglar is fine for group action. On some of the other suggestions, I wholeheartedly disagree with him in every way, shape and form. No man, Ready and Able does NOT need a 30-minute CD. That is one of your worst suggestions.

But my broader point is that for the challenging end-game stuff, there's a reason why Burglars are getting hated on in Crickhollow and multiple other servers, and that's simply because we can't keep up unless the class gets some serious fixes. And the ones responsible, the developers, won't even know where to start with this class because they have broken it so badly. It'll probably easier/better/more fun to start a betting pool to see how bad the developers are going to #### up the Burglar class in their attempt to fix it. I'm putting the over/under at the class will be even more ####ed up than before once they start "fixing" the class problems.

[Spilo]

The problem, Dagironfist, is for every thing broken with Burglar in regards to garbage T2 contribution, lack of AoE, power issues, and bugs, there's an almost equal amount of beneficial broken things benefiting the Burglar: Provoke Mez, the Ability to use TnG, Find Footing, HIPS, Aim, and Knives Out multiples time in a small time frame, and then to do it all again 5 minutes later, the capabilities of Burst Damage (one-shotting Creeps), a certain bug with Aim that allows Burgs to do something stupid, and Dust in the Eyes continuing to grow more and more silly. I'm all for fixing all the ways that Burg lacks, but we also need to address things that are benefiting the class in a stupid way.


It was the same thing with LM. LMs are more than willing to cry about Warg silences, Eye Gouge Cooldown, Induction debuffs all from Warg, but whenever I'd agree with them, then suggest something along the lines of also nerfing Blue Line LM survivability, nerfing Fire Shield, etc, they'd get up in arms. They weren't interested in class balance, they just wanted goodies.

[Elwenwing]

As I've mentioned a few dozen times, Burglars only truly lack in T2 contribution in 3 and 6 mans. They need better mitigation penetration, an ability to spread Bleeds via Dust, some form of power restore, a few bugs fixed (Flashing blades first and foremost) and a few other things fixed (Ready and Able CD extended to 30 minutes, Provoke given a 10s cooldown).

In terms of t1 contribution and raid contribution, they do very well in the former (in my glass build of around 95k mastery, I am nearly always the highest damage contributor on Featured Instance dailies in my PUGs) and are almost required in the latter (at least in the new raid).

They should definately not have changed the Location is Everything trait in U18, so better mitigation penetration is certainly wanted!

I'm not sure about bleed spreads, but I would welcome them at this point in time! At least some form of DPS increase is needed compared to some of the other classes!

I personally would rather have them spread through Knives Out, but Dust in the Eyes would certainly work as well.

Ready and able countdown is fine as is! Why even suggest a 30 minute countdown?

That would break Burglars even more for pve and group content purposes!

A 95k mastery build is probably not representative for the majority of burglar players, and there should always be a diversity of builds possible for any class to do well in group play!

edit:

I did not read the reply about Ready and Able before I posted, but in my opinion a purely pvp perspective about a skill should never be an argument for that skill to be changed game wide! I'd rather have them change the skill in the moors! And even then 30 minutes is silly long!

[Spilo]

They should definately not have changed the Location is Everything trait in U18, so better mitigation penetration is certainly wanted!

I'm not sure about bleed spreads, but I would welcome them at this point in time! At least some form of DPS increase is needed compared to some of the other classes!

I personally would rather have them spread through Knives Out, but Dust in the Eyes would certainly work as well.

Ready and able countdown is fine as is! Why even suggest a 30 minute countdown?

That would break Burglars even more for pve and group content purposes!

A 95k mastery build is probably not representative for the majority of burglar players, and there should always be a diversity of builds possible for any class to do well in group play!

Because Ready and Able originally was an actual Cooldown that didn't provide stupid melee survivability.

95k Mastery is pretty easy to achieve, and considering the difficulty level of t1 stuff, it's not necessary to have more than 20k morale as a Burglar. I have a swappy build with 28k morale with 73k mastery as well- my damage is still higher than most people I play with. The problem most people have with Burg is that it actually takes thought and skill to build a good DPS rotation (not to mention positional), not the stupid 5 key random spam that produces good Fire RK DPS.

To be honest, many PvP specific changes are good for PvE as well- survivability with Burg ought to revolve around CC and quick damage skills, not popping TnG/KO/W/E and simply laughing at the pathetic attempts of the poor mobs.

[Elwenwing]

It's not that easy to achieve as you make it sound!

There's also a lot of players who just solo and or play t1 content, and who do not have easy access to the best essences and armour pieces and jewellery!

A 30 minute cooldown would be a disadvantage for anyone below level 100 when essence armour would come into play!

[Spilo]

It's not that easy to achieve as you make it sound!

There's also a lot of players who just solo and or play t1 content, and who do not have easy access to the best essences and armour pieces and jewellery!

A 30 minute cooldown would be a disadvantage for anyone below level 100 when essence armour would come into play!

Sure it is. Running the Featured Instances t1 for the 2 slot armor, jewelry, and gold Masterful Agilities, maybe spamming T2 1st boss runs which are much easier than full runs and have decent drop rates. I'm not here telling everyone that Burglar is the most OP class out there, but on T1 instances there is absolutely nothing it lacks. T1 stuff is so easy now that we have a significant advantage (Burgs having strong burst damage).

[dagorironfist]

The problem, Dagironfist, is for every thing broken with Burglar in regards to garbage T2 contribution, lack of AoE, power issues, and bugs, there's an almost equal amount of beneficial broken things benefiting the Burglar: Provoke Mez, the Ability to use TnG, Find Footing, HIPS, Aim, and Knives Out multiples time in a small time frame, and then to do it all again 5 minutes later, the capabilities of Burst Damage (one-shotting Creeps), a certain bug with Aim that allows Burgs to do something stupid, and Dust in the Eyes continuing to grow more and more silly. I'm all for fixing all the ways that Burg lacks, but we also need to address things that are benefiting the class in a stupid way.


It was the same thing with LM. LMs are more than willing to cry about Warg silences, Eye Gouge Cooldown, Induction debuffs all from Warg, but whenever I'd agree with them, then suggest something along the lines of also nerfing Blue Line LM survivability, nerfing Fire Shield, etc, they'd get up in arms. They weren't interested in class balance, they just wanted goodies.

I'm not opposed to give and take. You're right, the Provoke Mez can be pretty hilarious, especially in PvMP, and DiTE can get pretty wild if you've got a maxed out DiTE legacy. But herein lies the real problem, the developers have nuked the class so badly that they are going to #### up the class even worse than it is now by trying to "fix" it. I honestly don't know where they would start because the class is in such a shambles. I mean FFS they snuck that MASSIVE nerf on the Burglar positional damage and probably congratulated themselves for their efforts. The cowards didn't even put it into any release notes. It had to be discovered by accident. Meanwhile that nerf ####ed the class pretty nicely. The core thing that a Burglar relies on the most gets the biggest ####ing nerf. That alone leaves me less than positive about any so-called fixes they are cooking up. So sure, give and take, but based on experience and the developers' track record for ####ing up this class the last three years, those developers will not be giving (unless they are giving us the finger) but rather taking what's left of the Burglar class.

[Spilo]

I'm not opposed to give and take. You're right, the Provoke Mez can be pretty hilarious, especially in PvMP, and DiTE can get pretty wild if you've got a maxed out DiTE legacy. But herein lies the real problem, the developers have nuked the class so badly that they are going to #### up the class even worse than it is now by trying to "fix" it. I honestly don't know where they would start because the class is in such a shambles. I mean FFS they snuck that MASSIVE nerf on the Burglar positional damage and probably congratulated themselves for their efforts. The cowards didn't even put it into any release notes. It had to be discovered by accident. Meanwhile that nerf ####ed the class pretty nicely. The core thing that a Burglar relies on the most gets the biggest ####ing nerf. That alone leaves me less than positive about any so-called fixes they are cooking up. So sure, give and take, but based on experience and the developers' track record for ####ing up this class the last three years, those developers will not be giving (unless they are giving us the finger) but rather taking what's left of the Burglar class.

Yep, pretty much, which is why I am concerned when they talk about "buffing burg's damage and survivability" (paraphrased). We don't need more survivability. We don't need a flat buff to damage. We need actual class evaluation, but I guarantee you we won't get that.

[Elwenwing]

On that I do agree!

I would not put it exactly in those words, but I am worried about improvements as well!

I feel burglars should be a support class and therefor they should not need to be in the dps race as is!

But the game content for a long time has been focused on just that, rendering the role of the class pretty much useless!

[dagorironfist]

The most insulting part is they expect us to pay for the privilege of being excluded from group content.

[dwarfThar]

Why is everybody so opposed to nerfing Ready and Able? This skill is mostly irrelevant for PvE anyway.

Some simple fixes I'd like to see:

Fix the Debuffing Gamble
Fix Provoke's Debuff (and Counter Defence) and adjust it's magnitude accordingly
Fix animation times - different races shouldn't have different animation lengths for the same skill
Restore LiE's former functionality
Bring back Crit Chain Skills Crit Chance legacy and adjust damage accordingly

These little things would bring the burg a little more up to speed again, of course there need to be further actions.

Our positional damage has been nerfed big time (you can thank an idiot developer for screwing that up).

I mean FFS they snuck that MASSIVE nerf on the Burglar positional damage and probably congratulated themselves for their efforts.

You keep bringing this up and I'm always wondering: what positional damage nerf are you talking about? There's none I know of.

[Oelle]

You keep bringing this up and I'm always wondering: what positional damage nerf are you talking about? There's none I know of.

I really wonder about this, too.
From position, i can onehit any landscape enemy easily and do great damage in instances, too.
If not in position, my damage compared to position is garbage. All thats left is bleeds and other than that it feels like halved (okay, and some skills that are not affected by position)...
although, position bonus is 'only' about 70% and not 100%... position bonus is huge, where has it been nerfed?
or do you refer to the traitbonus nerf of -1% avoidance instead of -10% mits? that has nothing to do with positional. its just critchain nerf.

[dagorironfist]

@Thar, the nerf I refer to is the Location is Everything trait. You know we used to get a -10% mitigation bonus from position and now it is a -1% BPE penetration from position. In the Moors that nerf dragged us into a massive black hole of suck. Ever since the launch of U18 I had been wondering why my Moors punches went into the toilet and then we all found out the developers nerfed that trait. Then it made total sense why my Burglar couldn't hit a creep worth a damn anymore. So yeah after such shady behaviour my hopes for a proper class fix are zilch and like I said to Spilo my guess is that in trying to fix this broken class they are going break it even worse. You've been playing longer than me but ever since the launch of Helm's Deep (which launched shortly after I began playing) it is hard not to see how badly this class has been hurt.

@Oelle did you even read where I said landscape is fine for a Burglar? Because landscape can be done by any class. It's supposed to be. You can one hit a landscape mob from position? Congrats on doing something you're supposed to be able to do. And the old T1 instances are fine for a Burglar. No one is disputing the landscape or T1 content. The new instances and raid not so much, but the old ones do just fine for a Burglar.

[Oelle]

@Thar, the nerf I refer to is the Location is Everything trait. You know we used to get a -10% mitigation bonus from position and now it is a -1% BPE penetration from position. In the Moors that nerf dragged us into a massive black hole of suck. Ever since the launch of U18 I had been wondering why my Moors punches went into the toilet and then we all found out the developers nerfed that trait. Then it made total sense why my Burglar couldn't hit a creep worth a damn anymore. So yeah after such shady behaviour my hopes for a proper class fix are zilch and like I said to Spilo my guess is that in trying to fix this broken class they are going break it even worse. You've been playing longer than me but ever since the launch of Helm's Deep (which launched shortly after I began playing) it is hard not to see how badly this class has been hurt.

@Oelle did you even read where I said landscape is fine for a Burglar? Because landscape can be done by any class. It's supposed to be. You can one hit a landscape mob from position? Congrats on doing something you're supposed to be able to do. And the old T1 instances are fine for a Burglar. No one is disputing the landscape or T1 content. The new instances and raid not so much, but the old ones do just fine for a Burglar.

my tooltip says nothing with position. it just says avoidance penetration for critchain. wasnt it just mitpenetration for critchain before?
any sane burglar would prefer mitpen over avoidancepen as long as the values are as they are these days.

i do not agree on the other hand. no one should be supposed to be able to onehit any landscape enemy. but we could argue about landscape difficulty as long as we want without getting a result that differs from different standpoints. when i started playing my burglar, i could not onehit every enemy i find with near to no (10s) cd. this came only at levelcap. why should i be able to do it there?

no one argues against burglars being weak in T2 due to not being able to penetrate the high t2-mits.
burglar as supporter does not care about t2mits, just burglar as dpsclass does. sure, burgs should be able to penetrate mits like any other class in red. or just do more damage as they have no aoe and imo a class without aoe should have huge ST damage instead.

[007Squanto]

The problem, Dagironfist, is for every thing broken with Burglar in regards to garbage T2 contribution, lack of AoE, power issues, and bugs, there's an almost equal amount of beneficial broken things benefiting the Burglar: Provoke Mez, the Ability to use TnG, Find Footing, HIPS, Aim, and Knives Out multiples time in a small time frame, and then to do it all again 5 minutes later, the capabilities of Burst Damage (one-shotting Creeps), a certain bug with Aim that allows Burgs to do something stupid, and Dust in the Eyes continuing to grow more and more silly. I'm all for fixing all the ways that Burg lacks, but we also need to address things that are benefiting the class in a stupid way.


It was the same thing with LM. LMs are more than willing to cry about Warg silences, Eye Gouge Cooldown, Induction debuffs all from Warg, but whenever I'd agree with them, then suggest something along the lines of also nerfing Blue Line LM survivability, nerfing Fire Shield, etc, they'd get up in arms. They weren't interested in class balance, they just wanted goodies.

Nerf those things you listed in the first paragraph and you will have eliminated a burg's survivability way too much. Not only for pvp, but for pve, which is way more important, and none of those things are OP in pve in the slightest. And don't exaggerate, burgs aren't one shotting creeps.

[dwarfThar]

@Thar, the nerf I refer to is the Location is Everything trait. You know we used to get a -10% mitigation bonus from position and now it is a -1% BPE penetration from position.

Ah, I see. But that trait doesn't have to do anything with positional since Helms Deep - although the name suggests otherwise It was just 10% mitigation penetration and now grants bpe penetration, both not dependent on position.

In the Moors that nerf dragged us into a massive black hole of suck. Ever since the launch of U18 I had been wondering why my Moors punches went into the toilet and then we all found out the developers nerfed that trait. Then it made total sense why my Burglar couldn't hit a creep worth a damn anymore.

I'm actually having a blast in the moors currently (at least the rare times one manages to find a creep these days^^). Legacied Dust, Provoke Mez and auto-dev CdG are just hilarious.

[Spilo]

Nerf those things you listed in the first paragraph and you will have eliminated a burg's survivability way too much. Not only for pvp, but for pve, which is way more important, and none of those things are OP in pve in the slightest. And don't exaggerate, burgs aren't one shotting creeps.

PvE survivability really isn't an issue at all, especially with KO, TnG, and HipS. I mean, for crying out loud Burglars have a skill (HIPS) that means they are essentially immune from dying unless you choose to take risks. The ability to reset that with a five minute cooldown is just stupid for PvE or PvP. It used to not be that way.


Not 1-shotting creeps? Hm,




Oh and this video is coming from someone who's a clicker, for crying out loud.

[Oelle]

PvE survivability really isn't an issue at all, especially with KO, TnG, and HipS. I mean, for crying out loud Burglars have a skill (HIPS) that means they are essentially immune from dying unless you choose to take risks. The ability to reset that with a five minute cooldown is just stupid for PvE or PvP. It used to not be that way.


Not 1-shotting creeps? Hm,

Oh and this video is coming from someone who's a clicker, for crying out loud.

i see crazy burst, but no oneshots and yea, i totally agree, devd cdg from stealth is crazy. but its only burst, no sustain. does not help to kill 5mio morale bosses.
my suggestion for more burglar dps via allowing to stack all types of CA would not change anything in burgs killing creeps in less than 5 sec. but it would make red burgs viable as dpser in t2instances.

/edit: okay, watched the whole thing... maybe, one or two oneshots are in it :P without stealthed devd CDG, no way. sure, its kinda silly to say 'but you only can do it because this op skill here'. but thats what i say: it has no impact on pve at all. just a skill to oneshot in the ettens. they could take cdg completely out of the game and my burg would not really care.

btw: imo, skills like ready and able should not even exist. a skill to reset your strongest cooldowns does not make sense. those skills have long cooldowns because they are strong. resetting them is crazy. at least with such a short cooldown. 30min should be a minimum for that. or just taking it completely out.

[namedisplay]

The class was inspired by a vertically challenged individual of a race that was inclined toward obesity. Not to mention, he needed a ring that made him invisible to thieve anything. I think the only right thing to do is nerf it into oblivion.


Please direct any serious responses to this in the 'buff wardens' thread

Lol, this vid. Not sure why people put their name to stuff like this

[Chodelet]

Okay, so this is my first time posting and I hope I do it right.

You've found a thread title near and dear to the hearts of those who q.q in forums. You're on the right path, friend!

I started out with a burglar... He is really tough, and just as good if not better than most other classes. I hear a lot of people though ranting about how weak burglars are or how tough they are to play. But the truth is that they are just as hard and just as strong as anyone else.

If you don't play other classes, how could you know this either way?

As I've mentioned a few dozen times...

Then probably not worth mentioning again? Either people are ignoring you or missing the boat, it would seem...

Serious

exchange

of views

in this dead-

horse-beating

thread

ad nauseum

>_<

The most insulting part is they expect us to pay for the privilege of being excluded from group content.

lol... On second thought, OP, thank you for beating this dead horse...

Lol, this vid. Not sure why people put their name to stuff like this

You mean that wasn't the best exploding of red dot and otherwise-engaged creeps you ever saw?



Just need a few more contributions from the usual suspects before we can take a break for a few days then start this up again in another thread!

Keep up the good work, all!