U19 What Was Fixed and Lingering Bugs

[Lioncourt86]

I will only address the bugs that were supposed to have been fixed.

Fixed:

1.) The off-hand attack for Double-Edged Strike now appears to be totally fixed!! All legacies and traits apply to it as far as I can tell, and the critical/devestate values are where they should be based on the tooltips. Very nice!

2.) Off-hands for both Double-Edged Strike and Flashing Blades benefit from traits/legacies that increase critical chance/magnitude.

3.) Exposed Throat, the *main-hand* for Flashing Blades and the off-hand for Double-Edged Strike benefit from Location is Everything (previously did not in final BR build).

Lingering Bugs:

1.) Crit/dev values for Double-Edged Strike:

Boogiiman scored a critical hit with Double-edged Strike on the Light Training-dummy Orion for 15,015 Westernesse damage to Morale.
Boogiiman scored a devastating hit with Double-edged Strike on the Light Training-dummy Orion for 15,015 Westernesse damage to Morale.

I mean, I will take this over devs being lower than crits any day. The next step would just be to figure out how to make devs higher than crits, as they should be.

2.) Flashing Blades off-hand does not get positional damage bonus from legacies or traits.

It does however benefit from Critical Multiplier legacies and traits. I think this is the final piece to fixing the off-hand bug for Flashing Blades.

3.) Flashing Blades off-hand does not benefit from Location is Everything (still).

This was supposed to be fixed when U19 went live, but it appears it still snuck through. Fingers crossed for U19.1!

4.) Flashing Blades off-hand crit vs. dev values:

Boogiiman scored a critical hit with Flashing Blades on the Light Training-dummy Orion for 12,166 Westernesse damage to Morale.
Boogiiman scored a devastating hit with Flashing Blades on the Light Training-dummy Orion for 7,621 Westernesse damage to Morale.

**********

All in all, I am pretty pleased with the final outcome of the burg buffs. I do not know that this will actually change the bias against the class; I still think that would require a minor revamp, such as what I proposed in this thread https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthr...ge-Yellow-Blue.

If these suggestions were implemented, I would confidently predict the burglar class would welcomed into group content again. But for now, well done dev team. Hopefully more comes in the future.

[dagorironfist]

I've downloaded and patched. I've yet to wander into the new area to see pretty things (and scary things). I'm also in no rush to combat the hordes of players racing to get flowers (you want a make-work project, kudos to the developers for throwing a bone at the hardcore solo players). But I just ran the Featured Instances on level 104 and 105 and I have to give credit where credit is due, my DPS output was noticeably higher and finishing swings with DES were working as intended, based the notes. Mitigation penetrations definitely seem to be working too: Dagorfast scored a devastating hit with Exposed Throat on the Ice-drake Guard for 39,754 Beleriand damage to Morale.

Now admittedly this was a small sample but done on the live server. By the looks of things red line Burglar is about 90% complete. There are some bugs that need to be worked out and from a gaming perspective, that AoE bleed ability is priority for the class. But perhaps that's a 19.1 update inline with Lioncourt's suggestions. In the meantime, good work to the team.

[Tirn]

All in all, I am pretty pleased with the final outcome of the burg buffs. I do not know that this will actually change the bias against the class

If these suggestions were implemented, I would confidently predict the burglar class would welcomed into group content again. But for now, well done dev team. Hopefully more comes in the future.

why are you so easily pleased ?

Dont hope , demand !! Don't accept garbage being shovelled at you .

The Burglar class is still being fed #### by a developer who is utterly clueless and simply refuses to listen to people like you .

now we have plagues of Burglar packs in the moors .

What at a result , way to go

[dwarfThar]

now we have plagues of Burglar packs in the moors .

How can one possibly need a pack after these changes? Sad.

[Lioncourt86]

why are you so easily pleased ?

Dont hope , demand !! Don't accept garbage being shovelled at you .

The Burglar class is still being fed #### by a developer who is utterly clueless and simply refuses to listen to people like you .

now we have plagues of Burglar packs in the moors .

What at a result , way to go

I think you misunderstand me. When I say I am pleased with the final outcome of the buffs, I meant than on Bullroarer the "changes" were bugged and when they went live they were mostly fixed. I was fully expecting them to remain bugged. So I was pleasantly surprised.

That said I do not think anyone actually believes these changes will have made the burg much more desirable for group content. That would require more extensive changes, such as those I suggested.

I would like to believe the devs working on class balance/revamps are not outright ignoring well-thought-out suggestions, but are merely unable to implement them because they have been reduced to... pretty much as small as you can get without the game being in maintenance mode. Demanding anything of them is like demanding a 20-year-old dog to roll over. You really can't expect much, and getting nasty just pisses them off. Not the best way to inspire quality work.

So I suggest things in the hope that they will look it over and assess whether or not it is feasible. In the end, they will do whatever they want anyway.

Regarding the recent mass of burg packs... yeah that is a direct consequence of Turbine not considering PvP or even slightly attempting to balance things. There are a variety of ways they could buff creeps as a bandaid, but even that was neglected.

But it's not a problem with burgs getting buffed so much as creeps remaining untouched through 2 rounds of imbuement, release of raid gear, revamping of mastery->damage formula (linear so freeps got buffed, creeps stayed relatively the same), and now burg/hunter buffs. I will not fault the burg buffs for bad PvP, but I will flame Turbine for blatantly ignoring an entire sub-community (well, more-so than usual lol). But that is the state of the game now. Oh well.

[Tirn]

I think you misunderstand me. When I say I am pleased with the final outcome of the buffs, I meant than on Bullroarer the "changes" were bugged and when they went live they were mostly fixed. I was fully expecting them to remain bugged. So I was pleasantly surprised.

That said I do not think anyone actually believes these changes will have made the burg much more desirable for group content. That would require more extensive changes, such as those I suggested.

I would like to believe the devs working on class balance/revamps are not outright ignoring well-thought-out suggestions, but are merely unable to implement them because they have been reduced to... pretty much as small as you can get without the game being in maintenance mode. Demanding anything of them is like demanding a 20-year-old dog to roll over. You really can't expect much, and getting nasty just pisses them off. Not the best way to inspire quality work.

So I suggest things in the hope that they will look it over and assess whether or not it is feasible. In the end, they will do whatever they want anyway.

Regarding the recent mass of burg packs... yeah that is a direct consequence of Turbine not considering PvP or even slightly attempting to balance things. There are a variety of ways they could buff creeps as a bandaid, but even that was neglected.

But it's not a problem with burgs getting buffed so much as creeps remaining untouched through 2 rounds of imbuement, release of raid gear, revamping of mastery->damage formula (linear so freeps got buffed, creeps stayed relatively the same), and now burg/hunter buffs. I will not fault the burg buffs for bad PvP, but I will flame Turbine for blatantly ignoring an entire sub-community (well, more-so than usual lol). But that is the state of the game now. Oh well.

on the contrary I understand you perfectly , my point was that the dev clearly doesn't nor are they ever likely to . It's suicide for the game if they continually fail to listen to those that pay their wages . We need accountability and if firing them and getting someone else in is the way to go then so be it . What other business fails repeatedly to listen to its core customer base and survives ?

I didnt want want to derail your thread by talking about creeps but now you mention it I'd just like to say I'm with you all the way on that one . Yet another bodge job by people who think it funny to wear imitation Viking helmets in an office ( that's so yesterday ) bet they listen to Abba though .

[gorma_eu]

Burglar was never a very popular class. Sure, there were always some enthusiasts but there are only a handful of main burglars left. I guess 80% of burglars are just toons for moors faceroll. Atleast the burst buffs would make sense this way.

Leaving the class as it is, not doing any overhaul of skilltrees and class mechanics, is an implication because only a handful of players play the burglar in pve, in pvp it is fine to faceroll. And as we already know, turbine are extremly low on ressources. That's why we won't see any impactful changes to the burglar ever.

I challange Cordovan(or any dev) to play quays of harlond and blood of the black serpent T2C as a burglar and answer themselves following questions:

- Was it fun?
- If you were successful, do you think it was done in a reasonable amount of time?
- If you were successful, do you think your contribution mattered reasonably?
- If you failed, do you think you would have been succesful with any another class?
- If you failed, do you think you could improve your skill at playing the burglar in a way that would result in a success with the same group again.

If they would do this they would eventually realise how bad the class performs in pve - aka its completly broken and you can't fix it by only buffing dps a bit.
But I would prefer they would just say the burglar is fine and it "maybe needs some love here and there" - so the enthusiasts who know their class can bury their burg or reroll.

[dwarfThar]

If they would do this they would eventually realise how bad the class performs in pve - aka its completly broken and you can't fix it by only buffing dps a bit.

I wouldn't really sign this. The only problem that is left is T2 3 man usefulness in my opinion. And that can't be fixed by a simple dps buff, I agree.
However, we are great as support in raids.
And also T2 6 mans are more than fine after U19. With the buffs of a 6 man group we're hitting like a truck.
No need to mention T1 classic instances where burg dps is hilariously high due to our burst.

[Samsgaard]

I challange Cordovan(or any dev) to play quays of harlond and blood of the black serpent T2C as a burglar ...

Those are the worst examples you could pick, and though you're right that they're very unfriendly to burgs, that says more about the instances than it does about the class. The class is great for soloing, good for Throne (great for Rako and the 3rd boss), decent for SS T2c (great for getting the challenge done), and decent for DoS T2c (great in the mumak fight).

The class is broken in one respect, however - it's unique ability (to initiate fellowship maneuvers on demand) is no longer relevant. The devs have decided not to scale FMs, and they haven't replaced FMs with some other unique ability of comparable worth. Without one or the other, burgs will always be a shadow of their former selves.

[gorma_eu]

And also T2 6 mans are more than fine after U19. With the buffs of a 6 man group we're hitting like a truck.
No need to mention T1 classic instances where burg dps is hilariously high due to our burst.

Can't agree here. Every dps benefits in the same way running with group buffs. Sure, that way, burg doesn't feel that horrible any more but the gap to other dps classes stays exactly the same. The only thing that changes in 6 mans is, that the group doesnt rely on your dps as much as on 3 mans so the whole expirience isn't as painful as in 3 mans. Groups can compensate having a burg in 6 mans t2c, thats what im trying to say.

Also group debuffs to enemies bpa / mitigations help a ton which makes it even more obvious that there is something wrong with the burgs ability to pen mitigations or let's say to deal dmg in t2c content.

Sure you can say that quays and black serpent are badly designed dungeons that are really bad for the burglar. The way I see it, is that these dungeons make the burgs faulty design obvious. And after all you gear up in those dungeons, you should not be penalized so hard as a burg.

Regarding t1 content - never argued about it. It's basically landscape content difficulty wise, you can run the content with loremaster pets while having +10 gloom. We facerolled t1 before the patch and we still doing it, like everyone else ...

[dwarfThar]

Can't agree here. Every dps benefits in the same way running with group buffs. Sure, that way, burg doesn't feel that horrible any more but the gap to other dps classes stays exactly the same. The only thing that changes in 6 mans is, that the group doesnt rely on your dps as much as on 3 mans so the whole expirience isn't as painful as in 3 mans. Groups can compensate having a burg in 6 mans t2c, thats what im trying to say.

Also group debuffs to enemies bpa / mitigations help a ton which makes it even more obvious that there is something wrong with the burgs ability to pen mitigations or let's say to deal dmg in t2c content.

In Silent Street I parse relatively equal to other dps classes or even outdps them on the 2nd/3rd side boss/challenge bosses even when they get buffed the same way. At the general current dps levels, morale on bosses even in 6 mans is so low that our burst capabilities shine there.
I couldn't really test whether raid dps could be viable after U19 until now, because of the lack of burgs I always have to play yellow there.

[daedalusAI]

You did miss 2 major things that haven't been fixed for ages: blue/yellow burg is still horribly outdated and only red burg is getting some love meaning 2/3 of burg variations are utterly useless.

[Lioncourt86]

You did miss 2 major things that haven't been fixed for ages: blue/yellow burg is still horribly outdated and only red burg is getting some love meaning 2/3 of burg variations are utterly useless.

Actually, I did towards the end.

I do not know that this will actually change the bias against the class; I still think that would require a minor revamp, such as what I proposed in this thread https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthr...ge-Yellow-Blue.

If these suggestions were implemented, I would confidently predict the burglar class would welcomed into group content again.

And I would not call yellow burg totally useless, but it could be better.

[Daniyel]

I will only address the bugs that were supposed to have been fixed.


All in all, I am pretty pleased with the final outcome of the burg buffs. I do not know that this will actually change the bias against the class; I still think that would require a minor revamp, such as what I proposed in this thread https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthr...ge-Yellow-Blue.

If these suggestions were implemented, I would confidently predict the burglar class would welcomed into group content again. But for now, well done dev team. Hopefully more comes in the future.

OP, do you care to include u19.1/u19.2 updates here at some point in the future?

[Lioncourt86]

OP, do you care to include u19.1/u19.2 updates here at some point in the future?

If anything changes for burgs, I certainly can. That or I may just make a new thread.

Nothing changed for the class in U19.1 though, as far as I know.

[dwarfThar]

In Silent Street I parse relatively equal to other dps classes or even outdps them on the 2nd/3rd side boss/challenge bosses even when they get buffed the same way. At the general current dps levels, morale on bosses even in 6 mans is so low that our burst capabilities shine there.
I couldn't really test whether raid dps could be viable after U19 until now, because of the lack of burgs I always have to play yellow there.

Sorry to derail this thread a bit, but I need to refer to my post here again. Having played a lot with the U19 changes now, I'm confident to say that Burg dps is fine apart from the obvious lack of aoe for 3 man content.
Yesterday I had the opportunity to go redline on Rakothas t2cm for the first time.

For comparsion: Warden was at 43k and RK at 46k for this fight. Considering I messed things up a bit and could've gone a tad higher for sure + we bring a huge raidwide dmg boost to the table this dps seems quite competetive. Also note that I wasn't in position for roughly 40% of the fight... And there are also much better Burgs than me out there.
I'm also regularly filling a dps spot in Silent Street with my burg instead of my RK now. Bosses melt so fast since U19...

I just wanted to get this out here: dps burgs don't need to be carried through content despite what people seem to be thinking

[infinitewhimsy]

Is the Flashing Blades animation still broken/extra long if you're not a human male?

[dwarfThar]

Is the Flashing Blades animation still broken/extra long if you're not a human male?

Yeah, animation still differs between human/hobbit.

[Kasius]

I can just agress what dobb postet,red burgler single target dps is very good.Even yellow burgler is really strong.

Rakothas T2cm in yellow:30k dps(best dps was rk about 75k


Vadokhar T2CM in red:50k dps(best dps was rk about 60k)


Nazguls T2CM in red:40k dps(suprisingly i was best dps,because rks had fear+eyes and only 38k)


Gothmog T2CM last phase in red:29k dps(best dps was rk about 60k dps),(only 65% of the time in melee range -.-):