Raid Loot - The Future

[Dadislotroguides]

Hello All,

SSG (then Turbine) hinted that with the upcoming raid they are leaning toward a Personal Loot System. I think it is important that the community educate themselves on the different scenarios and then comment on their thoughts of what would be best.

http://dadislotroguides.com/loot-system-concerns-ideas/

[Eruadarion]

Personal loot is an utterly ill-conceived idea for challenging raid content! Period.

[Gildintar]

The whole coin should be distributed over the quest.

In addition, the Lootrules should be changeable after kill.
The rest is OK.




No to Personal loot !

[siipperi]

The whole coin should be distributed over the quest.

In addition, the Lootrules should be changeable after kill.
The rest is OK.




No to Personal loot !

This is the best possible system from raiders perspective (coins refering to trash ithil coins and similar common currency). We can share fairly and want to do that by ourselves.

[Drawbar]

Well, if they make personal loot an option in lootrule, it would be ok.. (and it shows after some time that this is the least-used choise probably)
Oh, and please make everything stackable then... well.. not then.. just now already. The same helmet, bound or not, should stack, period.

[Phindecano]

I'm highly AGAINST personal loot - it was the WORST thing about loot in Lotro history.

However, I'm ok to see it as an option. In WoW raid leader can choose if he want to use personal loot or traditional master loot. Most raiding kins are using master loot since it's the best option for kins. However, if there are players that like personal loot (that is awful in my opinion), just add another option! If raid leader selects "master loot", raid get traditional loot. If he selects "personal loot", you get this RNG-based doom that some Lotro players like so much for the reason unknown.

[mrfigglesworth]

Say no to the dark days of low chance high value personal loot.
*recalls running dungeons and sword halls 300 times for champ boots at lvl 85.*

Also , +rep for pushing for higher value rewards for t2 FI runs.

[Eruadarion]

this RNG-based doom that some Lotro players like so much for the reason unknown.

I created a thread discussing the issues with personal loot a couple of months ago and it clearly turned out that only people who never actually raided new on-level T2 content think personal loot was a good idea.

Personal loot as an option? Why not. More options are always welcome (a waste of development ressources IMO because no serious raiding group will use it but whatever).
Forced personal loot? NO THANK YOU. The terrible forced personal loot system in RoR was one of the main reasons the Erebor Raids recieved so much negative feedback.

[Mandura]

I am also strictly against a personal loot system for any kind of instanced group content, especially raids.

RNG will always favour some and screw over others with personal loot. Anyone remember the lvl 85 gold items?... Some got their piece in the very first run while others didnt get one even after hundrets of runs.


Currency can and should be awarded automatically to everyone though. It's just a major time sink and very prone to error assigning 6 x 2 x 12 stacks of coins every time you run throne for example. But we as players should really be able to distribute any other loot according to the loot rule the group agreed upon.

[Laubgaenger]

ATM we need more Time to sort the Loot as we need in the Fights (ID 1/3)
Why not bind the 3+7 Coins to the Marks.
Armor should rolled in the classic way.
Crafting mats could also become easier, so that each Player get one, by the own craft, or one by each 2nd ID.

In the normal Instance it is very unpolite to drop the 10th Helm or Breast to the ground, while in Instance are still players, that need the armour.

[Mercho]

I don't think personal loot would be a good idea for a raid. If they choose to use personal loot they should make the loot unbound. This would allow raiding kinships to distribute the loot the way they desired. Making the loot unbound would cause issues though. Equipping the loot would have to be tied to a completion deed.

I'm happy with the current Throne of the Dread Terror system.

[numenos20]

Personal loot would be a bad idea...hopefully they make it so its optional.

[Trampin]

Gentleman as refreshing as it is to see members of good raiding kinships agreeing it's an awful idea, it's a fruitless argument. The Dev's themselves are casuals (some have admitted to never having run the raid) and so are many subscribers. They'll pander to the skill-less, social majority. Rather stupid from them however, as Throne brought the game back to life and so many people are quitting again already. These new ideas/changes are just going to put the game back into the awful, dead situation it was in at level 100.

[Willj119]

Gentleman as refreshing as it is to see members of good raiding kinships agreeing it's an awful idea, it's a fruitless argument. The Dev's themselves are casuals (some have admitted to never having run the raid) and so are many subscribers. They'll pander to the skill-less, social majority. Rather stupid from them however, as Throne brought the game back to life and so many people are quitting again already. These new ideas/changes are just going to put the game back into the awful, dead situation it was in at level 100.

Someone clearly got out of bed on the wrong side this morning...

[HebnesO]

Or, he just shows off his elitism...

It doesn't matter at which loot system they end up on in the end. Some few selective individuals will always find the loopholes around the system and since we know what kind of company we are dealing with, such activities will go unpunished and remain within the game for months and years.

It's sad for me to admit, but there are some that just are in their own league. Their level is beyond your own imagination.



Yours truly,
A true fan.

PS: <17:07:53> "slyRe.": well my intelligence ingame wise is obvious since I'm at the top of the skill cap at any class i play and played

Want a closer look? Click here -> https://postimg.org/image/nf3wkhsqh/

[Nexcris]

It doesn't matter at which loot system they end up on in the end. Some few selective individuals will always find the loopholes around the system and since we know what kind of company we are dealing with, such activities will go unpunished and remain within the game for months and years.

It's sad for me to admit, but there are some that just are in their own league. Their level is beyond your own imagination.



Yours truly,
A true fan.

PS: <17:07:53> "slyRe.": well my intelligence ingame wise is obvious since I'm at the top of the skill cap at any class i play and played

Want a closer look? Click here -> https://postimg.org/image/nf3wkhsqh/

Would do it again.

[Dadislotroguides]

Gentleman as refreshing as it is to see members of good raiding kinships agreeing it's an awful idea, it's a fruitless argument. The Dev's themselves are casuals (some have admitted to never having run the raid) and so are many subscribers. They'll pander to the skill-less, social majority. Rather stupid from them however, as Throne brought the game back to life and so many people are quitting again already. These new ideas/changes are just going to put the game back into the awful, dead situation it was in at level 100.

I am not sure how this loot change would only affect raiding kins ... it will affect everyone at every play level. We are not talking about the quality of loot that drops, we are talking about how loot is distributed.

[BotLike]

Gentleman as refreshing as it is to see members of good raiding kinships agreeing it's an awful idea, it's a fruitless argument. The Dev's themselves are casuals (some have admitted to never having run the raid) and so are many subscribers. They'll pander to the skill-less, social majority. Rather stupid from them however, as Throne brought the game back to life and so many people are quitting again already. These new ideas/changes are just going to put the game back into the awful, dead situation it was in at level 100.

/on
I don't see why anyone would quit Lotro now that there's so much flower picking and immersive dailies going on.
/off

It's sad to see all that raid hype fade away...
We all knew it was going to happen , but i do believe we were also surprised by ToDT raid. At least i was.
There is always hope for more of the same.

As for the loot system , it would be really really stupid to vastly tweak what we had in ToDT. In my eyes , it was near perfect.

[Eruadarion]

I am not sure how this loot change would only affect raiding kins ... it will affect everyone at every play level.

Of course it will PRIMARILY affect raiding kins. First of all it's important to realize that Severlin (or was a different dev? either way some SSG person) was not talking about changing the loot system for existing raids or instances but for upcoming raids. Also note that he was specifically talking about new raids and not 3/6 mans. Looking at the status quo of available level 105 raids, all T1 raid chests (both Throne and old scalable raids) already use a personal loot system. The only 105 raid chests using classic loot are currently scalable raid T2C chests (they're quite irrelevant tho) and Throne T2 and T2C chests. The vast majority of players doing Throne T2 and T2C are obviously players from raiding kins or some other fixed groups. And one of the reasons why people want to join a raiding kin / fixed group is not only because it's usually required to be in a group of players who know how to play together as a team to be able to beat a Throne T2/T2C encounter in the first place, but also because raiding kins and fixed groups usually offer some kind of fair loot distribution like DKP, SKS, Loot council,... etc.
That said, I really don't see how the average causual T1 PUG player would be affected by this loot change in any way since a change from classic raid loot to personal raid loot would only change how the loot of T2/T2C raid chests of new raids will be distributed (T1 already uses personal loot, so no change will happen there).

We are not talking about the quality of loot that drops, we are talking about how loot is distributed.

True but from what we've seen in the past, introducing personal loot usually goes hand in hand with the removal of raid locks and it's only reasonable to think that we'll be seeing the same thing happen again. Removing raid locks and the ability to do the same raid encounter multiple times per week will inevitably lead to high quality raid drops being super rare. In summary: increasing the grind, reducing the fun.
Yes I'm aware that there is also a hybrid option available, namely the current skraid loot mechanics where you can loot once per week but are allowed to participate multiple times. But do we really want to see this kind of loot system in T2 and T2C raids without an option to distribute loot via master loot? It would make all these well established fair player controlled loot systems like DKP, SKS etc. useless and everything will be once again decided by pure rng. Not to mention the fact that it would require a new raid to be either so short that it's easily completable in one go or it has to be split up like Helegrod, OD or the Erebor clusters because no locks means no save points for your current progression. As a result it will lead to the easiest bosses being farmed and the harder bosses being hardly ever touched. We've already been all through this in the past years and there is zero need to do the same mistakes again that were made during the RoR expansion.

[bastiat1]

This

Must

Not

Pass

[onor]

Not to derail the thread but a simple way to deal with thread locks is to switch from them to making completing each boss a permanent deed. If everyone in the raid has completed bosses 1 and 2 then the group could start at boss 3. It could also start at boss 1 or 2 if desired. Maybe this subject deserves its own thread, but I felt the op was unanimously answered and the subject was brought up here.

[Nydhogg]

They're considering getting rid of locks and introduce personal loot because they can't fix the known issue regarding t2 locks spreading in t1?

1. Getting rid of locks doesn't have to mean personal loot. The raid skirmish system allows loot once per week and can be master looted (items can be assigned to everyone eligible for loot). Rerunning is possible but no loot for you. Loot locks with the loot still being master looted is a good alternative in my opinion and will increase participation in raids.

But raid locks have another purpose: to save progress.

2. I don't want to have to do the entire raid in one session if I wish to see the end. Removing locks will probably end up in a future raid similar to what they did to OD: cut up in pieces and create 3 different raids. That would take away from the experience though. Besides if they can create three separate raids, why can't they create two separate raids? One with t1 only and one with t2 only? They'd be separate raids so no locks would spread, just like I didn't pick up Orthanc locks when I did Draigoch. We could all be happy doing t1 lock free and keep locks on t2.

[Leviosa]

I don't like the idea of personal loot for a couple of reasons.

1.) For me (and a lot of other people too) this takes the fun and suspense out of the raid scene. Using ladder spots on gear is strategic and keeps RNG out of the picture when it comes to gearing yourself out for harder content.
2.) Players should be instantly rewarded for completion of an objective. Members of a successful raid should not have to wonder if gear will be rewarded.

I am not opposed to different forms of loot, but I am completely opposed to the idea that everyone has their own loot RNG from looting a chest after a boss. Level 85 was proof that personal loot was an issue and should never be a thing ever again.

I do, however, have an idea to propose to those who are open to new ideas.

So right now, we have Ancient Ithil Coins. They're used to barter for different pieces of gear, symbols, crystals, and other things. In Throne, we have different barter-able items for different pieces of gear. I am not against the merging of the two concepts and going with a more "Skirm-camp-esque" approach to the loot. I think for completion of each T1, T2, or T2C boss, respective amounts of a single loot/gear currency could be distributed. Not only that, but extra tokens could drop in chests making it easier to get gear to those who use their ladder spots for a time advantage. This way, each and every member of a successful raid could benefit from their personal effort that they have given.

Some may say that this is the system that is currently in place, but I invite you to look at it from a different perspective. Currently, Throne requires that you have all of the instance completed on T2 before you can barter and trade the different barter items for whatever piece of gear that you have... plus Ancient Ithil Coins. Instead, why not give out an advanced version of these coins and allow each member to select the pieces of gear that they want?

I also don't think that it would be unwise or unwelcomed to include a weekly deed that gives extra currency to spend on raid gear. For example, complete X out of X Bosses (separated by tiers of course with exponentially increasing rewards for harder content) to receive extra loot coins with a weekly cooldown that resets with raid locks.

These loot coins would not be the only form of barter-able items from the raid; however, it would provide a more consistent and rewarding way to gear characters of successful raiders over time.

I am an advocate of old-school, hard-earned gear and loot systems, and I wouldn't change it at all if it were my choice, but if loot is really a concern of SSG and the more casual side of the community, then I am not completely against any (sensible and not too Lotro 85-100 cap-ish) propositions that may be made.

[Knight.]

With Mordor Raid on the horizon, a good time to re-open this discussion.

I love raiding (with kin & pugs), but the one thing I have always hated with a passion is the distribution of loot, in particular the drama and bickering that sometimes comes with it (especially when the raid is new) as well as the time lost when distributing loot. This is not to mention the issues others have run into on pug runs where the raid leader was perhaps not too trustworthy or the loot rule forgot to be set etc.

In RR we have a DKP system in place as I'm sure other kins do, but again even then this is open to issues and requires extra work/effort out of game.

Personally speaking, I would like to see something like the following:

• Armour & Equipment .... Every single person in raid receives an "armour fragment" (account wide) for completing a boss. You need 'x' amount of armour fragments of a specific type to get a specific type of armour e.g. 4 completions in T2c for a certain boss to trade for chest piece for example. This can then be extended to items such as class items where you would need 'x' amount of "class item fragments" obtainable across multiple bosses to get your class item e.g. 8 T2c completions of any boss or from a specific range of bosses. This would encourage the raid to be run multiple times on main accounts and alts (since the fragments are account wide). Furthermore I believe this would not effect the longevity of the raid as 3 ppl getting 1 piece of armour Vs 12 ppl getting 1/4 armour fragments balances out.
  
• Cosmetics & Housing Items ... personal loot, automatically assigned & not bound so can be traded or sold/purchased via AH.
  
• Crafting Items ... personal loot, automatically assigned one per person & not bound so can be traded or sold/purchased via AH to get the one you want for your profession.
  
• Unique Essences e.g. Pel Essence ... personal loot, automatically assigned.
  
• Barter Coins e.g. Ancient Ithil Coins ... automatically distributed (evenly to all people within raid)
  

That's my 2 pennies worth.

[danee593]

With Mordor Raid on the horizon, a good time to re-open this discussion.

I love raiding (with kin & pugs), but the one thing I have always hated with a passion is the distribution of loot, in particular the drama and bickering that sometimes comes with it (especially when the raid is new) as well as the time lost when distributing loot. This is not to mention the issues others have run into on pug runs where the raid leader was perhaps not too trustworthy or the loot rule forgot to be set etc.

In RR we have a DKP system in place as I'm sure other kins do, but again even then this is open to issues and requires extra work/effort out of game.

Personally speaking, I would like to see something like the following:

• Armour & Equipment .... Every single person in raid receives an "armour fragment" (account wide) for completing a boss. You need 'x' amount of armour fragments of a specific type to get a specific type of armour e.g. 4 completions in T2c for a certain boss to trade for chest piece for example. This can then be extended to items such as class items where you would need 'x' amount of "class item fragments" obtainable across multiple bosses to get your class item e.g. 8 T2c completions of any boss or from a specific range of bosses. This would encourage the raid to be run multiple times on main accounts and alts (since the fragments are account wide). Furthermore I believe this would not effect the longevity of the raid as 3 ppl getting 1 piece of armour Vs 12 ppl getting 1/4 armour fragments balances out.
  
• Cosmetics & Housing Items ... personal loot, automatically assigned & not bound so can be traded or sold/purchased via AH.
  
• Crafting Items ... personal loot, automatically assigned one per person & not bound so can be traded or sold/purchased via AH to get the one you want for your profession.
  
• Unique Essences e.g. Pel Essence ... personal loot, automatically assigned.
  
• Barter Coins e.g. Ancient Ithil Coins ... automatically distributed (evenly to all people within raid)
  

That's my 2 pennies worth.

I like this, hate the roll rng ####