Nerf hunters and burglers

[Ethrildar]

15k hits from bestial claws? The only way that'd ever happen would be a glass cannon build, WL buffs, WL banner debuffs (if you aren't overcapped on mits, for whatever reason), rend, 4 red outposts, and a lucky dev with positional. I've literally never hit anything higher than a 11k bestial claws on a freep (even with bad mits in a glass build).

It happens when debuffed. I refuse to believe you canot get 15k crits on low/no mits Freeps at GV, because I can get well over 10k on my cruddy Warg, what is the difference between a low mit freep and a debuffed cap-mit freep in terms of inc damage? Clearly the long list of modifiers you mention above to get these huge hits on Creepside, is exactly what has happened to get the 115k HS crit on whichever creep it was that took it. It's not like Hunters just run around throwing out 115k HS every other hit, a normal Heart-seeker will be more like 30k crit/dev on a Creep with mits and in a balanced scenario.

[Oelle]

Nerf burgers

Pizza is op, too. But please dont nerf, I like it

[Spilo]

It happens when debuffed. I refuse to believe you canot get 15k crits on low/no mits Freeps at GV, because I can get well over 10k on my cruddy Warg, what is the difference between a low mit freep and a debuffed cap-mit freep in terms of inc damage? Clearly the long list of modifiers you mention above to get these huge hits on Creepside, is exactly what has happened to get the 115k HS crit on whichever creep it was that took it. It's not like Hunters just run around throwing out 115k HS every other hit, a normal Heart-seeker will be more like 30k crit/dev on a Creep with mits and in a balanced scenario.

I just fail to see where you get 15k hits. Freeps have numerous debuffs/buffs that are accessible which is why you can see incredible discrepancy with what normal hits are possible. Creeps don't. You have literally Rend debuff, WL command buff and puddle. 15k hits aren't possible even when debuffed unless you're already doing something dreadfully wrong.

[wretchesandkings]

I said this before and I'll say it again, creep's armor rating contribution should be changed to 20% like freeps. Only then we won't be seeing these ridiculous large hits

[Mukor]

I said this before and I'll say it again, creep's armor rating contribution should be changed to 20% like freeps. Only then we won't be seeing these ridiculous large hits

And what would change that. Mitigations are capped with directstats(corruptions)?
And even with a higher armour contribution. If it´s set to zero no win from the armour. x*0=0

[Elgrind]

All new record, took a 114k heartseaker today with crit def 55%, phys mit 63%, and tact mit 58%. But hunters are in a fine place.

You just wrote a plain dmg you get hit.
Specific more:
hunter solo, group up?
which debuff on you,
how many blue OP, relics
Oathbreaker,
hunter stand on red cappy banner, to arms?
burg mark?
lm AC?
...
Your creeps class? Rank...

Side notes:
Red hunter+red cappy do HS around 90-120k on creeps.
I saw on kinship chat 75-80k on R15 spider, if i remember it well.(redline solo)
Red hunter sux hard, 1 shot or die that is.
Just for Gramms camps against greenies.

Get 114k HS is hardly an argument if you dont specific it...
While can warg do 7,9-9,9k every 1sec with 1 non induction skills on 40-50k freep, isnt an argument too btw. ;-)

[wretchesandkings]

And what would change that. Mitigations are capped with directstats(corruptions)?
And even with a higher armour contribution. If it´s set to zero no win from the armour. x*0=0

I'm not sure if I understand what you are saying and vice versa so let me explain. right now armor value contribute 100% to physical and tact mit. ie. +1667 armor rating = +1667 phys/tact mit rating. do you see the problem? it means debuff like rend reduces your phys/tact mit (ie beleriand) by bloody 7k. couple that with ancient craft and horn of gondor and whatever debuff, we are looking at 17k mitigation rating reduction. if you can't get your rating above what freeps debuff than mit corruptions are waste of slots. you don't see reavers sunder blow reducing orc craft mit by more than a few % yet it's -9k armor rating, but champ along can reduce your mit by more than 30% with rend....just why.

[Mukor]

I'm not sure if I understand what you are saying and vice versa so let me explain. right now armor value contribute 100% to physical and tact mit. ie. +1667 armor rating = +1667 phys/tact mit rating. do you see the problem? it means debuff like rend reduces your phys/tact mit (ie beleriand) by bloody 7k. couple that with ancient craft and horn of gondor and whatever debuff, we are looking at 17k mitigation rating reduction. if you can't get your rating above what freeps debuff than mit corruptions are waste of slots. you don't see reavers sunder blow reducing orc craft mit by more than a few % yet it's -9k armor rating, but champ along can reduce your mit by more than 30% with rend....just why.

Ah k-. I see your point reducing the win of armour socreeps have to slot more direct mitigations to cap that the lost of armour isn´t this bad. But than they should insert more corruptionsslots or creeps can slot anything elseexcept mitigations if thes want to cap.
But the chage vs hs , all physicals, won´t change if they do it freepsidelike. freeps win 100% common out of armour.at least if freeps won´t use a title, changing the damage type.
Best would be douple the corruptionslot. that creeps have 12 slots for mits and 12 for something else.
First I thought the other way.

[Justapvpdude]

Mukor starting with pvp suggestions now?
God help us all.

[Mukor]

Mukor starting with pvp suggestions now?
God help us all.

If you don´t see the imbalance between creeps and freeps with the opness of freeps your simply blind.

[Ethrildar]

I just fail to see where you get 15k hits.

Not even going into the fact that Warg pool is a tremendously potent AOE debuff that stacks an unlimited number of times. There are other debuffs you've missed, like the Black-arrow debuff, what is that.. 2.5k Armour? Probably more nowadays, doesn't it stack too? It certainly stacks between multiple BAs.

In a raid scenario when being focused, I can see no reason that with multiple Wargs, I should have any more than 0% mits (starting with 58% and overcapped ratings). In terms of actual stacking debuffs, I think Creepside takes the cake by a substantial margin, as Freepside has some easy to apply and clearly overpowered debuffs (Rend/AC), but nothing that stacks between multiple of the same OP class.

I'm not sure if I understand what you are saying and vice versa so let me explain. right now armor value contribute 100% to physical and tact mit..

For all of the talking, lecturing people on your (wrong) idea of how armour works for Freeps is a little humorous. For freeps, 100% of your armour value is applied to Physical Mitigation, and 20% to Tactical Mitigation. Meaning that your 9.8k Sundering Blow (or whatever it is now, maybe 11.5k?) does a huge amount of debuffing to a Freep also in terms of Physical incoming damage, and no small measure of increased incoming Tactical either.

You are correct that the combination of heavy mitigation debuffs has ridiculous results, but so does the combination of 3 warg puddles reducing my mitigations to 1/3 of what they should be. Once again, stacking MORE of something overpowered is breaking the game, same with stacking Wargs, stacking Spiders, stacking BAs, stacking Hunters, Champs, Burgs. There are no countermeasures for just creating broken group setups.

that creeps have 12 slots for mits and 12 for something else.

Yes. Lets completely break the moors so that no Creep can take a hit over 10k unless heavily debuffed, all the while going 12mits and 6 crit 6 mastery, to really annihilate every Freep in sight. What a well thought out idea. /SlowClap

Creepside already suffers from 6 of one mitigation being broken overpowered unless heavily debuffed.

Mukor starting with pvp suggestions now?
God help us all.

RIP.

[Spilo]

Not even going into the fact that Warg pool is a tremendously potent AOE debuff that stacks an unlimited number of times. There are other debuffs you've missed, like the Black-arrow debuff, what is that.. 2.5k Armour? Probably more nowadays, doesn't it stack too? It certainly stacks between multiple BAs.

In a raid scenario when being focused, I can see no reason that with multiple Wargs, I should have any more than 0% mits (starting with 58% and overcapped ratings). In terms of actual stacking debuffs, I think Creepside takes the cake by a substantial margin, as Freepside has some easy to apply and clearly overpowered debuffs (Rend/AC), but nothing that stacks between multiple of the same OP class.



For all of the talking, lecturing people on your (wrong) idea of how armour works for Freeps is a little humorous. For freeps, 100% of your armour value is applied to Physical Mitigation, and 20% to Tactical Mitigation. Meaning that your 9.8k Sundering Blow (or whatever it is now, maybe 11.5k?) does a huge amount of debuffing to a Freep also in terms of Physical incoming damage, and no small measure of increased incoming Tactical either.

You are correct that the combination of heavy mitigation debuffs has ridiculous results, but so does the combination of 3 warg puddles reducing my mitigations to 1/3 of what they should be. Once again, stacking MORE of something overpowered is breaking the game, same with stacking Wargs, stacking Spiders, stacking BAs, stacking Hunters, Champs, Burgs. There are no countermeasures for just creating broken group setups.



Yes. Lets completely break the moors so that no Creep can take a hit over 10k unless heavily debuffed, all the while going 12mits and 6 crit 6 mastery, to really annihilate every Freep in sight. What a well thought out idea. /SlowClap

Creepside already suffers from 6 of one mitigation being broken overpowered unless heavily debuffed.



RIP.

Lot of misinformation in this post.

1. Warg Puddle does not stack unlimited times, it stacks 3 times, if I remember correctly, a total of around 13k mit debuff. I am at 26.5 Pmit on Burglar right now, and removing 13k cuts my mits from 50% to 28% OC/FW. That's an increase of 44% damage with 3 puddle coordinated with CC. Besides, you should be running 58% mitigation on hunter if you are getting focused.

2. You're also incorrect on your information of armor debuffs. 100% of Armor debuffs goes to common mitigations. Un-common mitigations does not refer to tactical damage as you think, but refers to mitigations outside of common tactical physical OR tactical sources, such as fire, beleriant, OC/FW, Light mitigation. Reaver Sundering blow removes about 2% mitigations on someone who is not overcapped on mits, BA debuff debuffs even less. However, Creeps are bugged to receive 100% of armor debuffs on Common mitigation AND Beleriant/Fire, etc, which is why armor debuffs are INCREDIBLY important for Freepside. In addition, in my tests is appears that armor debuffs subtract mitigations contributed from Corruptions.

3. Points 1 and 2 combined, there's no way Creeps are going to reduce your mitigations to 1/3 of what they should. Even with 1-2 BAs, Reaver Sundering, Banner of Horror,and 3 Warg Puddles all coordinating, you'll take about a 16-17k mitigation debuff to your uncommon mitigations. Freeps advantages in terms of -inc damage sources is not even a contest. Creeps have an advantage with CC, Freeps with -inc damage debuffs/buffs.

4. I do agree that slotting 6 mit is annoying, but it's really only annoying in 1 on 1 situations. Any other situation it's pretty easily countered.

All this being said, you're putting yourself in a dangerous position of hypocrisy, Equi. 15k Claws requires a situation far more extraordinary than those crying over 100k Heartseekers. As long as both Creeps and Freeps continue to pollute threads like these with absurd claims and inaccurate information, we can guarantee that LOTRO PvP will never be balanced.

[Mukor]

Yes. Lets completely break the moors so that no Creep can take a hit over 10k unless heavily debuffed, all the while going 12mits and 6 crit 6 mastery, to really annihilate every Freep in sight. What a well thought out idea. /SlowClap

Creepside already suffers from 6 of one mitigation being broken overpowered unless heavily debuffed.

I mean they would need the additional slots if they reduce the win of armour to 20% like it´s for freeps or they won´t be able to reach the mitcaps.
Well they´ve 100% common damage out of armour but the rest is 20%. so reducing the armpour to just reduce the mits with 20%.
While creeps have 100% mits out of armour so they loose all mits except 3(+-1)times corruption they use to cap the mits. So ~80% of mits.

[GrandCru]

Someone getting 15k Bestial Claw (on a 1 sec CD) would put him lower than a keyboard turning norbog on the food chain.

PS: Is it me or the (former?) BFFs have broken up?

[Ethrildar]

Stuff....

1. Unless something has changed since I used to have a Warg boxer for slaying Yand when he was grams camping 24/7 on Brandywine for 6 months continually, it stacks endlessly, or at least 6 times. Back before Wargs had hilariously overpowered damage, I was able to kill yand in under one second with 6 rank 6 wargs, I dread to think what 6 coordinated Wargs could do now (to any freep, regardless of 80k morale and overcapped mits), given that Kraugh, Ynich and Etvish combined do around 18-20,000 DPS in the Headshot knockdown of a BA, and 4 Hunters with a crit Barrage each can instantly one-shot a 180k WL.

2. My bad, correct you are, it's non-common that takes 20%. The debuffs are still more potent than you give them credit for, I lose somewhere around 5% mits from Sundering, 10% more incoming damage isn't bad given that it's a 4 second (iirc) CD and lasts a minute.

3. Not really, I mean if every creep in a 6-12man is using their debuffs, as they should be and just like every Freep is, you're going to be taking 40-60% more damage. To say that isn't ridiculous is ridiculous in itself because that's around where Freepside levels of debuff are as well, perhaps a bit higher if you're counting AC as well (with its lengthy cooldown compared to all other debuffs). Not even going into the fact that Creepside has 2-3x numbers capability on Arkenstone, and thus by default I have 12 people's worth of debuffs with me, to combat 30-50 Creep's worth of debuffs.

4. It's annoying in all situations. A mit-stacked Warg like Etvish/Kraugh in a raid with 2 rows of defiler hots is a nightmare to kill, as simple logic dictates, mitigations become exponentially more useful the more people you're being hit by, over DPS, which reduces in potency between targets (except AOE).

I don't care about being called a hypocrite when people don't take the creep goggles off for even a second to see that both sides have insane levels of debuff capability, that result in ridiculously high damage hits on both sides. Not to mention that being called anything by players like Mukor and the likes is a joke unto itself.

[The_Memes]

1. Warg Puddle does not stack unlimited times, it stacks 3 times, if I remember correctly, a total of around 13k mit debuff. I am at 26.5 Pmit on Burglar right now, and removing 13k cuts my mits from 50% to 28% OC/FW. That's an increase of 44% damage with 3 puddle coordinated with CC. Besides, you should be running 58% mitigation on hunter if you are getting focused.

you're thinking of limit on 3 reveal weakness on a target, iirc warg puddles have no limit

anything i have said in the last 120 hours

no you're wrong get over it

[Mukor]

1. Unless something has changed since I used to have a Warg boxer for slaying Yand when he was grams camping 24/7 on Brandywine for 6 months continually, it stacks endlessly, or at least 6 times. Back before Wargs had hilariously overpowered damage, I was able to kill yand in under one second with 6 rank 6 wargs, I dread to think what 6 coordinated Wargs could do now (to any freep, regardless of 80k morale and overcapped mits), given that Kraugh, Ynich and Etvish combined do around 18-20,000 DPS in the Headshot knockdown of a BA, and 4 Hunters with a crit Barrage each can instantly one-shot a 180k WL.

2. My bad, correct you are, it's non-common that takes 20%. The debuffs are still more potent than you give them credit for, I lose somewhere around 5% mits from Sundering, 10% more incoming damage isn't bad given that it's a 4 second (iirc) CD and lasts a minute.

3. Not really, I mean if every creep in a 6-12man is using their debuffs, as they should be and just like every Freep is, you're going to be taking 40-60% more damage. To say that isn't ridiculous is ridiculous in itself because that's around where Freepside levels of debuff are as well, perhaps a bit higher if you're counting AC as well (with its lengthy cooldown compared to all other debuffs). Not even going into the fact that Creepside has 2-3x numbers capability on Arkenstone, and thus by default I have 12 people's worth of debuffs with me, to combat 30-50 Creep's worth of debuffs.

4. It's annoying in all situations. A mit-stacked Warg like Etvish/Kraugh in a raid with 2 rows of defiler hots is a nightmare to kill, as simple logic dictates, mitigations become exponentially more useful the more people you're being hit by, over DPS, which reduces in potency between targets (except AOE).

I don't care about being called a hypocrite when people don't take the creep goggles off for even a second to see that both sides have insane levels of debuff capability, that result in ridiculously high damage hits on both sides. Not to mention that being called anything by players like Mukor and the likes is a joke unto itself.

for sure 9 k hits and 100k hits are in the same level. htis aren´t 40-6ß% more damge this is over 400% more damge.

[wretchesandkings]

spilo said it for me. thank you. by the way, I play a champ and reaver so I know exactly what I'm talking about here.

this problem is either
1) A bug
2) A characteristic that all npc's shares, and creeps are essentially npcs.

i'm leaning towards the latter, but either way it has to go.

[wretchesandkings]

Creeps have an advantage with CC,

Also this. Idk what everyone thinks, but as far as I'm concerned, the only advantage is audacity because freep don't lack cc at all.

[Nouri]

I just don't get where some of these warg damage numbers are coming from. I have capped mits, (admittedly a little over-capped on physical mits with RK thickened skin trait) and around 60% crit defense, so I was shocked the other night when Spilo's warg nailed me for a bit over 4k DPS. That's an eye-popping DPS stat when I see that fighting a warg! O.O And, that's no where near some of the numbers I hear being thrown around here. I can only imagine some of these numbers if someone has two rows of debuffs on them, and four red OPs. Typically, with even OPs, a well-played warg will do between 2k and 2.6k DPS.... I look at my CA numbers after every 1v1.

Cheers Spilo, that's some wicked DPS!

[Elgrind]

I just don't get where some of these warg damage numbers are coming from. I have capped mits, (admittedly a little over-capped on physical mits with RK thickened skin trait) and around 60% crit defense, so I was shocked the other night when Spilo's warg nailed me for a bit over 4k DPS. That's an eye-popping DPS stat when I see that fighting a warg! O.O And, that's no where near some of the numbers I hear being thrown around here. I can only imagine some of these numbers if someone has two rows of debuffs on them, and four red OPs. Typically, with even OPs, a well-played warg will do between 2k and 2.6k DPS.... I look at my CA numbers after every 1v1.

Cheers Spilo, that's some wicked DPS!

Omg again,
specific more your 4k TPS from warg:

How long was a fight? 10sec 30sec, 45sec, 50sec,1min?
How high do you get each hit from each skill
Average hit from each skills
Highest hit from whole fight.
How many hit you got in whole fight (40, 50, 100, ...)
.....

Some time people are really dont care or not know what to say.
CA plugins is easy to use btw.
Sometime you got jumped by 2-4 wargs and your CA still counting dmg, even when u died already or retreat on GY.
Please lets have some more specific talk/discussion from now.

O.T. + Hint:
People above talk about hit average they got from some skill or highest one.
You r talking about fight DPS aka DPS on whole fight ehmmm without time.
f.e. without selfmotivation /heal
40k morale RK with 4k TPS = 10 sec fight.
50k morale RK with 4k TPS = 12,5 sec fight.

Now you can find by CA plugins:
how many times skill was used
how many skills was used
how avarage skills did hit you etc etc etc

edit:
If you check combat log n know warg abit more,then you know how many time cut animation skills was used
You can figure out warg rotation.
With timestamp you know how fast is those skill provided
The best/good warg do it all with positional dmg bonuses !!!
That is nearly double DPS(4k) vs average 2-2,5k wargs DPS

Enjoy....

[Starkorm]

It happens when debuffed. I refuse to believe you canot get 15k crits on low/no mits Freeps at GV, because I can get well over 10k on my cruddy Warg, what is the difference between a low mit freep and a debuffed cap-mit freep in terms of inc damage? Clearly the long list of modifiers you mention above to get these huge hits on Creepside, is exactly what has happened to get the 115k HS crit on whichever creep it was that took it. It's not like Hunters just run around throwing out 115k HS every other hit, a normal Heart-seeker will be more like 30k crit/dev on a Creep with mits and in a balanced scenario.

I picked this quote at random.
I just wanted to say you're bad.

I just fail to see where you get 15k hits. Freeps have numerous debuffs/buffs that are accessible which is why you can see incredible discrepancy with what normal hits are possible. Creeps don't. You have literally Rend debuff, WL command buff and puddle. 15k hits aren't possible even when debuffed unless you're already doing something dreadfully wrong.

Shame on you, Spilo. I would've thought by now you learned not to waste your time talking to Ethrildar.

Mukor starting with pvp suggestions now?
God help us all.

This game can't get any worse.

[Lodesh]

This game can't get any worse.

Turbine could come back.

[siipperi]

I just don't get where some of these warg damage numbers are coming from. I have capped mits, (admittedly a little over-capped on physical mits with RK thickened skin trait) and around 60% crit defense, so I was shocked the other night when Spilo's warg nailed me for a bit over 4k DPS. That's an eye-popping DPS stat when I see that fighting a warg! O.O And, that's no where near some of the numbers I hear being thrown around here. I can only imagine some of these numbers if someone has two rows of debuffs on them, and four red OPs. Typically, with even OPs, a well-played warg will do between 2k and 2.6k DPS.... I look at my CA numbers after every 1v1.

Cheers Spilo, that's some wicked DPS!

2k dps by a warg on light armor wearer is really bad. Its almost u16 type of numbers. 2k is pretty much starting point as dps vs heavies.

[Starkorm]

Turbine could come back.

If anything I'd see that as a positive change. Turbine was good at ruining this game, much better than SSG could ever hope to be. They could end it sooner, hopefully, and a much better Lord of the Rings game could be made instead.