Red line Guard Needs Massive increase in DPS

[zipfile]

Guardian today has a much, much bigger dps then during the time when lv 75 and 85 were lv cap. Back then the most serious guardians has played in the blue line only (TOO). Guardian in dps role was NEVER accepted in the any end game group (except perhaps in skirmish raids). Also many raid leaders did not allow guardians to roll the on the might gear, and dps weapons was not affordable to tank classes. Besides guardian was completely useless in PVP and also unwanted member in a raid / group. Even worse was at level 85, with mitigation penalty to overpower stance with the same poor dmg output...
So, yes. Dps guardian is still in a much better position than before the "hated" trait trees introduction ...

No. It doesn't. Actually, yeah I does, if you compare raw numbers without perspective, hitting for 500 damage is way, way less than lets say, 2000 now. Oooh, you wanna look by comparison and perspective ? Very well.
Guards in overpower, with a decent build, were dealing 60-70% of a champs DPS, with some guardians even getting closer. That was at 85 cap.
Guards now deal, at best, 1/4 of ANY damage dealing class, or even less by average. How is it in any way in a better place now than ever, especially with massive overboost with item level, stats, worsened by essences and item set bonuses which are underpowered (look at raid sets, only yellow has SOME promise with +20% radiate, which is salt in the wound bonus given how radiate was hacked in u18, and putting +25% bleed damage on a 4 piece, LOL. Also, hammer down bonus was probably designed by someone who had far too much to drink during development.)

I dunno where you heard or experienced this "guards were not allowed to roll on might gear" thing, or how guards were useless in PVP at lower caps, but keep that to yourself. Guards were well respected back then, had their place in the moors and were good at it.

Edit: Imbuements also made a that dps gap massively greater

[BigLotroFan]

No. It doesn't. Actually, yeah I does, if you compare raw numbers without perspective, hitting for 500 damage is way, way less than lets say, 2000 now. Oooh, you wanna look by comparison and perspective ? Very well.
Guards in overpower, with a decent build, were dealing 60-70% of a champs DPS, with some guardians even getting closer. That was at 85 cap.
Guards now deal, at best, 1/4 of ANY damage dealing class, or even less by average. How is it in any way in a better place now than ever, especially with massive overboost with item level, stats, worsened by essences and item set bonuses which are underpowered (look at raid sets, only yellow has SOME promise with +20% radiate, which is salt in the wound bonus given how radiate was hacked in u18, and putting +25% bleed damage on a 4 piece, LOL. Also, hammer down bonus was probably designed by someone who had far too much to drink during development.)

I dunno where you heard or experienced this "guards were not allowed to roll on might gear" thing, or how guards were useless in PVP at lower caps, but keep that to yourself. Guards were well respected back then, had their place in the moors and were good at it.

Edit: Imbuements also made a that dps gap massively greater

I agree! I had plenty of fun in the lvl 75 days with a dps build. I held my own with my champ buddy. What I didn't have in dps or self heals we made up with in survivability. I remember a few times I even pulled agro through dps back then. I was so proud of myself lol. Also 2 manning 16th hall with my champ buddy. Having a bunch of mobs on us and I would rescue him from his suicide charge. Challenge. Then Pledge. While wielding a 2h. So great. I could dps and still felt like a guardian.

Now I feel like I'm made of paper and while the dps is much better everyone else got orders of magnitude better improvements. The balances are out whack.

[Happychappy]

If a blueline Champ can Tank but at a lower level than a Guardian, then a Guardian should be able to dps at a lower equivalent level to a champ. Surely?

The Warden and Runekeeper are the main culprits for ruining balance. The Warden with full tanking skills and full dps Skills is out of balance. The Runekeeper with its over the top Dps. Every class wants to be viable compared to these two. What we end up with is faceroll everywhere.

Nerf the warden/Runekeeper. Bring the hunter and burglar down a little. Adjust mobs/bosses slightly. And sort PVP out lol. My opinion anyway :P

[Elrohir_of_Kellemar]

I have a dwarf Guardian, redline with greataxe at level 105. I know that if I fight anything solo, it feels a bit tedious. I try not to fight anything solo; I jump into the fray and gather a bunch of targets together and use my aoe skills, my stuns, and pretty soon they are all dead. If I bite off a little more than I should, I have my one big heal that will usually bring me back up to full health. I just really enjoy playing my Guardian this way. I don't play a protector Guardian with a shield, but admire those that do that well. I can be more careful with my characters of other classes, but my Guardian just lets me go berserk. I don't need no stinkin' changes to the class.

[Gandalfy]

While I was able to get *normal* hits between 2000-2500 on my melee skills on the Ettenmoors training dummy that is really a bad place to test this out. For PvE content at least you'll see more realistic numbers by going to a Bree or Archet training dummy. By going to Bree I was able to get over 3k, 4k and over 5k (not including an overwhelm which normal hit for 18k).

My guess is that training dummies in the Ettenmoors have higher mitigations.

I decided to head to North Ithilen with my 60k PM and chose to only attack Firestarter Orcs one at a time. On average my times were 24-30 seconds. Single-target DPS is are biggest weakness, but it's not torture terrible either. Typically when I go out here to quest I'll use Fray and Auto-attack to gather up a group of 3-4 Firestarter Orcs to AoE off of to get the full benefit of my bleeds and AoEs. If you really insist on going by normal hits then with the exception of my bleed cashout my normal hits on the Firestarter Orcs ranged from roughly 1500-2900 damage; I don't bother including damage from bleeds under tier 10.

Regardless of the game I've always built my builds around Critical Hits. In Lotro I'll often waste Warrior's Heart just to gain the extra critical hit chance.

I mean, I've already stated that I'm in support of proper balancing to our class but... from comments by the devs I'm leaning towards them being more lore-based mentality. I'm hoping that we'll see buffs in some areas of our class but I wouldn't be shocked either to sadly see more nerfs. We'll see though, I'd absolutely love to be proven wrong.

Also, whatever contact I have with SSG I don't use to try to influence them with changes to the class. You guys bring up bugs and occasionally I'll fire off an email with a bug report. I'll probably do another bug report for Update 20, which won't include any bias I have against the upcoming Shield-smash nerf.

Honestly, I just want the devs to decide what they want to do with our class; buff, change, revamp, whatever... fix bugs and then leave us alone.

Zonflux, this is a helpful reply as it has led me down some interesting paths of investigation.
The reason your overwhelm skill did some decent damage was no doubt due to the cashout of a bleed (probably tier 10).

I have done further testing at the Moors training dummy because I feel this one is the most realistic to L105 content (where enemies will have mitigation)
Red line Guardians have no mitigation bypass, unlike other classes, so a realistic test should be done on a dummy like this.

Lower level training dummies will give inflated numbers because of the level difference (as will Turtle raid).

My DPS on combat analysis varied from 2kps up to 4kps depending on whether I got a T10 bleed or not.

The bleeds seem to keep disappearing and starting from T1, even when I didn't use Overwhelm to cash them out.
There was no description in the combat log as to why this was happening.
I have reviewed your video about finesse and resistance of bleeds, so I equipped 37% finesse but the bleeds were still disappearing.
Is there any other way to stop the bleeds from disappearing randomly?

Is there a way to guarantee that bleeds keep tiering up (eg. with a specific skill sequence), or is it dependent on getting crits only?

Even if you were able to consistently get 4k dps, I'm sure that's well below ANY other class.

Here is a quote from you last year, Zonflux:
"In Updates 15 and 16 Guardians did a respectable amount of DPS, though it was still a measure of sustained DPS. We were actually good enough to consider as a DPS role in groups but in Updates 17 and 18 our DPS is a joke. "

Guardian has been consistently nerfed Since Helm's Deep was released (update 12) and it's time for Standing Stone Devs to show their support for the Guardian community and make Guardian fun to play again.
Please give us back the Guard we had at Helm's Deep, or boost Red Line Guardian DPS so it's fun again.

[Hlifhrim]

... The bleeds seem to keep disappearing and starting from T1, even when I didn't use Overwhelm to cash them out.
There was no description in the combat log as to why this was happening.
I have reviewed your video about finesse and resistance of bleeds, so I equipped 37% finesse but the bleeds were still disappearing.
Is there any other way to stop the bleeds from disappearing randomly? ...

Bleeds keep disappearing on a dummy because dummies are programmed to reset every X seconds (don't remember the exact value). No DoT-based class will get reliable results parsing on a dummy.

[Zonflux]

I have reviewed your video about finesse and resistance of bleeds, so I equipped 37% finesse but the bleeds were still disappearing.
Is there any other way to stop the bleeds from disappearing randomly?

My conclusion in that video was actually that Finesse didn't help with bleeds, which was in relation to when bleeds were being resisted. Bleeds can no longer be resisted but can still be potted as per the one nerf rollback, though our bleeds not crit'ing often enough still remains to be fixed. I usually run 25-30% Finesse, anything over in my opinion is wasted Finesse, although, in PvMP I cannot really say because I am far from a PvMP expert.

Training dummies reset often and when they do any bleeds, poisons and debuffs on them will disappear. If you are lucky you can Radiate bleeds back onto Training Dummies that reset but it does affect our sustained DPS, which hurts us in parses compared to burst DPS classes.

My advice is rather than parsing against Training Dummies, since you did mention Firestarter Orcs, why not trying parsing against them as they have 100k morale which will allow your T10 bleeds to play an important contributor to your parses.

[Peco]

Because we play classic MMO. You might have a point if we played GW2 or such. If guardians would be competitive on dps why anyone would play other classes? Guardian survivability is superior to any other class in dps and usually doesnt need a healer to keep them alive. Guardian red line is designed and should stay as dps line for soloing. Sure you can use it in group stuff but you accept the fact run is slower than with dps class. Just as if you take lm/mns as dps. And dont bring wow here, game that has just healers, dps and tanks and everyone wants to play dps and stroke their dps meters. If you want to do dps pick other class. We picked guardian because we wanted to tank.

Again Siipperi and some others that have replied after you saying that a guardian is a tank only. This is very old fashioned, classes are meant to fulfil multiple roles now which is why we have the trait line. Why have them then if they are not used? can you imagine if min/lm/guard etc had there dps lines buffed so they are, lets say, within 10% of champ or rk or hunter? Now your question is, then why play a champ? Simple, variety and choice. if you have more variety and choice surely that is better then just playing 1 class with 1 line out of all of those lines/classes in the game? For example you want to AoE? sure! Lotro have 4 classes/lines that accommodate that each with their own flavours. red mini, yellow champ, red Lm or red guard. You want to be a buffer/debuffer/support? we have choices for that too! Mini/cap/lm/burg etc etc and the list goes on. As it is now there just one class for each of those roles (possibly two) but anyway I hope you get my point. I am not trying to cause an argument or troll or whatever. Just saying my thoughts really.

I understand that when you started the game and played guard, you was expecting to tank but as someone pointed out games change, people change and we need to move with the times. No need to pigeonhole classes anymore.

P.S sorry to bring up WoW but there are plenty of other MMOs that do it well too like Rift(although another not so great game).

[Marcho_Brandybuck]

No. It doesn't. Actually, yeah I does, if you compare raw numbers without perspective, hitting for 500 damage is way, way less than lets say, 2000 now. Oooh, you wanna look by comparison and perspective ? Very well.
Guards in overpower, with a decent build, were dealing 60-70% of a champs DPS, with some guardians even getting closer. That was at 85 cap.
Guards now deal, at best, 1/4 of ANY damage dealing class, or even less by average. How is it in any way in a better place now than ever, especially with massive overboost with item level, stats, worsened by essences and item set bonuses which are underpowered (look at raid sets, only yellow has SOME promise with +20% radiate, which is salt in the wound bonus given how radiate was hacked in u18, and putting +25% bleed damage on a 4 piece, LOL. Also, hammer down bonus was probably designed by someone who had far too much to drink during development.)

I dunno where you heard or experienced this "guards were not allowed to roll on might gear" thing, or how guards were useless in PVP at lower caps, but keep that to yourself. Guards were well respected back then, had their place in the moors and were good at it.

Edit: Imbuements also made a that dps gap massively greater

Just check the posts on the Guardian forum from the end of 2011. up to sometime in autumn 2013. This will help you to refresh your memory.

[Joedangod]

No need to pigeonhole classes anymore.

They took this idea and made a Beorning. Worked out pretty well, right? It's not pigeon holed into any single traitline!

[siipperi]

Again Siipperi and some others that have replied after you saying that a guardian is a tank only. This is very old fashioned, classes are meant to fulfil multiple roles now which is why we have the trait line. Why have them then if they are not used? can you imagine if min/lm/guard etc had there dps lines buffed so they are, lets say, within 10% of champ or rk or hunter? Now your question is, then why play a champ? Simple, variety and choice. if you have more variety and choice surely that is better then just playing 1 class with 1 line out of all of those lines/classes in the game? For example you want to AoE? sure! Lotro have 4 classes/lines that accommodate that each with their own flavours. red mini, yellow champ, red Lm or red guard. You want to be a buffer/debuffer/support? we have choices for that too! Mini/cap/lm/burg etc etc and the list goes on. As it is now there just one class for each of those roles (possibly two) but anyway I hope you get my point. I am not trying to cause an argument or troll or whatever. Just saying my thoughts really.

I understand that when you started the game and played guard, you was expecting to tank but as someone pointed out games change, people change and we need to move with the times. No need to pigeonhole classes anymore.

P.S sorry to bring up WoW but there are plenty of other MMOs that do it well too like Rift(although another not so great game).

Most classes have just 1-2 viable lines and often just one role to play in the group. I would absolutely be against buffing minstrel and LM to decent levels of dps. Its not old fashioned thinking. Its the only right way to think when you want to have diverse MMO with class roles. And no those games dont do it well when support and cc classes are killed in them in favour of DPS. We still have support and cc in lotro but not if everything is about dps.

[Mournsigh]

Guardian, under any circumstance, should not be considered a viable or substitude DPS class. That's way beside the point of the class itself. Want a melee DPS class with bleeds and potent AoE/ST DPS, roll a champ. Guards have their purpose, tanking, and that's what they should do.......So, in summary, guards SHOULD NOT be a DPS/have a DPS potential, but they should have a lot more than now, and get their own niche in red line that seperates them for champs.

But by that argument, why ever use any other class than RK for high dps? Why ever use any other class than LM except for CC? We have trait trees. A red-line Guardian should be able to dish out good and effective damage, another bonus for being in a group/raid being its excellent survivability. RK doesn't have that. LM not much either. There's more than 1 reason to utilise different classes in different configurations for the class-specific bonuses they can also bring to the table.

Do you want the red guard to CC? Heal? Debuff? Of course it needs a damage-orientated line, all other classes have one or two, there's no logic to ANY class not being able to decently damage-deal. Hence why the Guard's red line MUST be comparable to some extent with other classes. Not saying "the same as a champ" for example, champ's damage in blue is nothing like yellow or red, that's the survivability payoff. , but effective enough to justify using it for that purpose if that's what the player/group chooses in any specific group setup.

Guardians' survivability in all 3 trait trees is high, viz the ever-present Ward, self-heals & potential essence choices, Turbine/SSG cackhandedly relegated red line damage to a progressively lower level as a payoff for that, but if they are to maintain a damage-dealing trait line, it should be much more effective.

[Wulfdur]

Oh man, the numbers of Red Guards here make me chuckle hahaha Their puny bleeds and #### Like the class looks like revolving around special "Guardian's Bleed", yet you check the tooltip and it's ridiculously low LOL, not even 1 of 10 weak Warden bleeds

Ideally Guardian, Minstrel, LM should never be competitive dps for T2C. They should always have less dps than the other class designed for DPS, they can and infact they are more survivable than the other DPS classes, and that's totally fine. They can have fun with their mediocre dps and good survivability, in moors and landscape and t1 runs, which is fine.

Nonetheless, Red Guard numbers are still ridiculously low LOL not even accomplishing that mediocre dps i describe above anymore. Definitely they should get more love.

But, I gave up on any changes to Guardian, it's totally unreadable/broken code they have probably. Everything proves this on recent updates. So, I am not investing on making a RED Guard build for T2C content and I would advise you to do so. Roll a DPS class if u want role on T2C peeps.

Ah and for the Moors, your choice is going yellow for the groups to debuff and slow people. Even then, yellow debuffs are still too weak and yellow line needs some love too for stronger debuffs. For solo play, red guard cant compete with that ridicilously low dps, they need to be buffed into dps levels of mediocre like RED mini / LM so they at least try to have fun in moors going solo and out-sustain the targets.

[Joedangod]

it should be much more effective.

Yes, it should have better DPS than it does currently however it shouldn't be competitive DPS.

At best it should be around Beorning levels of DPS: far, far below actual DPS classes but quite tolerable for landscape and PvP.

[siipperi]

Oh man, the numbers of Red Guards here make me chuckle hahaha Their puny bleeds and #### Like the class looks like revolving around special "Guardian's Bleed", yet you check the tooltip and it's ridiculously low LOL, not even 1 of 10 weak Warden bleeds

Ideally Guardian, Minstrel, LM should never be competitive dps for T2C. They should always have less dps than the other class designed for DPS, they can and infact they are more survivable than the other DPS classes, and that's totally fine. They can have fun with their mediocre dps and good survivability, in moors and landscape and t1 runs, which is fine.

Nonetheless, Red Guard numbers are still ridiculously low LOL not even accomplishing that mediocre dps i describe above anymore. Definitely they should get more love.

But, I gave up on any changes to Guardian, it's totally unreadable/broken code they have probably. Everything proves this on recent updates. So, I am not investing on making a RED Guard build for T2C content and I would advise you to do so. Roll a DPS class if u want role on T2C peeps.

Ah and for the Moors, your choice is going yellow for the groups to debuff and slow people. Even then, yellow debuffs are still too weak and yellow line needs some love too for stronger debuffs. For solo play, red guard cant compete with that ridicilously low dps, they need to be buffed into dps levels of mediocre like RED mini / LM so they at least try to have fun in moors going solo and out-sustain the targets.

And we can argue what's wrong, warden or guardian damage in terms of pure % DPS regarding to boss morales. I would think any sensible person with any on hand experience of the content we have would say warden damage is way too high in that regard. So instead of making everything faceroll for landscape like hunters are, lets just nerf top 4 DPS classes down to earth.

If we look objectively, DPS output of 12 people shouldn't go over 150-170k DPS to have content balanced. However at the moment we can have 2x, almost 3x of that damage.

[Peco]

Most classes have just 1-2 viable lines and often just one role to play in the group. I would absolutely be against buffing minstrel and LM to decent levels of dps. Its not old fashioned thinking. Its the only right way to think when you want to have diverse MMO with class roles. And no those games dont do it well when support and cc classes are killed in them in favour of DPS. We still have support and cc in lotro but not if everything is about dps.

Siiperri, I did not say that a buffing LM's or Mini's should be good dps. If that's how my point came across then that was not my intention. If for example a mini goes red line that is all they do, dps. Not buff, not heal etc. Obviously in small doses but not full on. If a hunter wants to go yellow, then they should be a viable CC line, not a full on dps.

WIth regards to red guards, they too should be good dps. If people on here are saying their survivability is too good which is why there dps is lacking then they should lower the survivability in favour of dps. Whats the point of a dps line for any class if they cant be used for grouping at end game? Landscape? a blue guard could do landscape with one hand tied behind their back and hopping on one foot To dedicate a whole trait line just say for landscape content solo content seems a little ridiculous to me. Same as their yellow line, they should be proper debuffers. In my opinion it would be so great for all the classes to have their trait lines actually viable for end game content in one way or another.

[Serdarortac]

And we can argue what's wrong, warden or guardian damage in terms of pure % DPS regarding to boss morales. I would think any sensible person with any on hand experience of the content we have would say warden damage is way too high in that regard. So instead of making everything faceroll for landscape like hunters are, lets just nerf top 4 DPS classes down to earth.

If we look objectively, DPS output of 12 people shouldn't go over 150-170k DPS to have content balanced. However at the moment we can have 2x, almost 3x of that damage.

The content we have right now requires high dps output, I cant understand your reasoning here. Also stop complaining about wardens please it's so outdated. The amount of skills you need to play warden correctly exceeds any other class even so their st is lower than rk or hunters which is still fine, they are second best aoe which is also fine. The position wardens are in is quite balanced atm the only thing they can change about the class is lowering the dps in blue line while increasing their aggro holding abilities.

[Mukor]

Well 2k dps looks al ittle bit low, that you make more or less st as a tank. It should be all over 10.20k dpson aoe. there is no need to be as strong as dds, cause this isn´t the job. the dmgtrait is just for speed up the soloquesting/leveling.in groups we are tanks and not the dds.

[siipperi]

Siiperri, I did not say that a buffing LM's or Mini's should be good dps. If that's how my point came across then that was not my intention. If for example a mini goes red line that is all they do, dps. Not buff, not heal etc. Obviously in small doses but not full on. If a hunter wants to go yellow, then they should be a viable CC line, not a full on dps.

WIth regards to red guards, they too should be good dps. If people on here are saying their survivability is too good which is why there dps is lacking then they should lower the survivability in favour of dps. Whats the point of a dps line for any class if they cant be used for grouping at end game? Landscape? a blue guard could do landscape with one hand tied behind their back and hopping on one foot To dedicate a whole trait line just say for landscape content solo content seems a little ridiculous to me. Same as their yellow line, they should be proper debuffers. In my opinion it would be so great for all the classes to have their trait lines actually viable for end game content in one way or another.

Well those 2 classes are useless as dps in end game so it doesnt change anything for guardian, does it now? Red line of these 3 classes are meant to be solo/pvp lines. I have tried to dps in throne on minstrel and its bad and dragging the group big way.

The content we have right now requires high dps output, I cant understand your reasoning here. Also stop complaining about wardens please it's so outdated. The amount of skills you need to play warden correctly exceeds any other class even so their st is lower than rk or hunters which is still fine, they are second best aoe which is also fine. The position wardens are in is quite balanced atm the only thing they can change about the class is lowering the dps in blue line while increasing their aggro holding abilities.

No it doesnt. Like I said we have 2-3x of damage output we really need for the content. If 1. Boss can be killed in 1/5th of timer used or 5th boss in 1/3rd of timer used or last boss with 6+ mins left on the timer dps is too great. And I like longer fights than just 1-3 min fights. Should be 3-15 minutes depending on the boss.

[Happychappy]

The content we have right now requires high dps output, I cant understand your reasoning here. Also stop complaining about wardens please it's so outdated. The amount of skills you need to play warden correctly exceeds any other class even so their st is lower than rk or hunters which is still fine, they are second best aoe which is also fine. The position wardens are in is quite balanced atm the only thing they can change about the class is lowering the dps in blue line while increasing their aggro holding abilities.

You say outdated, I say its a common argument/problem. A tank class with high dps, heals and ranged. But because it takes a little more commitment to play effectively than say a Guardian then its ok if they are OP lol. Is that how you rank the classes? Based on how difficult a class is to play? Lol.

Same old arguments for why the Warden is OP. They are harder to play and they cost money to buy from the store lol. So outdated!.

You compare it to a Runekeeper, another OP pay for class lol. The Hunter was only buffed to be competetive with the RK and only has one role, Dps.

A Warden can be top tier tank, top tier dps, ranged dps and has self heals. It's a one man Fellowship!. Buts that's ok because they require a little more skill and cost coin? Lol. Pay to win?

Nerf the warden, Runekeeper. Tweak the rest of the classes that were buffed just to be competetive with these two OP classes and then adjust bosses/content accordingly. PvP would also improve then also.

[Serdarortac]

You say outdated, I say its a common argument/problem. A tank class with high dps, heals and ranged. But because it takes a little more commitment to play effectively than say a Guardian then its ok if they are OP lol. Is that how you rank the classes? Based on how difficult a class is to play? Lol.

Same old arguments for why the Warden is OP. They are harder to play and they cost money to buy from the store lol. So outdated!.

You compare it to a Runekeeper, another OP pay for class lol. The Hunter was only buffed to be competetive with the RK and only has one role, Dps.

A Warden can be top tier tank, top tier dps, ranged dps and has self heals. It's a one man Fellowship!. Buts that's ok because they require a little more skill and cost coin? Lol. Pay to win?

Nerf the warden, Runekeeper. Tweak the rest of the classes that were buffed just to be competetive with these two OP classes and then adjust bosses/content accordingly. PvP would also improve then also.

Top tier tank?(you have guard,captain for that) top tier dps?(rk hunter champ) ranged?(joking I guess) The only thing which can be reasonable about warden nerf would be the damage decrease in blue line but as it is now its allready hard to hold aggro in end game content as a warden compared to other classes so a buff for aggro holding might be needed. I am talking about raid level play here. Even with high level skills you are not a god as a warden. I dont know how much you know about warden class but I assume you never played it for a considereable time, so I have to explain this details as devs can very easily be mislead to some not logical buffs or nerfs from forum posts. LI level increase is a kind of nerf to wardens compared to other dps classes anyway. Pvp would only improve if the grouping size limit decrease in pvmp say to 6. As the ridiculous lag you get there combined with 30 man no skill raids is the main problem in moors atm. wardens are weak to cc, rks die quick so you dont have to worry about them

[Happychappy]

Top tier tank?(you have guard,captain for that) top tier dps?(rk hunter champ) ranged?(joking I guess) The only thing which can be reasonable about warden nerf would be the damage decrease in blue line but as it is now its allready hard to hold aggro in end game content as a warden compared to other classes so a buff for aggro holding might be needed. I am talking about raid level play here. Even with high level skills you are not a god as a warden. I dont know how much you know about warden class but I assume you never played it for a considereable time, so I have to explain this details as devs can very easily be mislead to some not logical buffs or nerfs from forum posts. LI level increase is a kind of nerf to wardens compared to other dps classes anyway. Pvp would only improve if the grouping size limit decrease in pvmp say to 6. As the ridiculous lag you get there combined with 30 man no skill raids is the main problem in moors atm. wardens are weak to cc, rks die quick so you dont have to worry about them

Yes I do/have played the Warden. If I hadn't I would not comment.

Top tier does not mean number one, but up there with best or not far behind. Guardian would be number one usually. Not well experienced on a captain, they are good I've seen but have limited mob taunts? Warden vs Captain? Not sure depends on situation I guess, but id tend to give it to the warden, putting only the Guardian ahead.

Runekeeper and Hunter beat them in dps granted. But as I mention on the previous thread, the Hunter was buffed to be competetive with the Runekeeper, another OP class. A warden will do more single target dps than a Champ, Champ is better AoE.

Warden is obviously your main and you want to defend it from a Nerf, but it does need a Nerf Imo. Dps of some classes does need a nerf too. If we keep increasing dps then we will be just one shotting mobs and each other even more. Most content is too easy now. But the Warden will have the easiest time of all, it can do it all, a one man army.

Yes Wardens have ranged. Not as good as melee though, which is very good, but they still have it if needed.

Bad wardens will fair far worse though and so make them seem balanced or in need of actual buffs, as you suggest.

The guardian and Captain have dps(red) lines too, but I don't see them doing the dps of a Warden, only true dps classes can compete with a Warden. Beorning dps is bad compared, but maybe it does not need the buff and just that others need a Nerf.

Don't worry though, doubtful they will Nerf it now. Players have complained about the Warden for years now and little has been done.

[Serdarortac]

Yes I do/have played the Warden. If I hadn't I would not comment.

Top tier does not mean number one, but up there with best or not far behind. Guardian would be number one usually. Not well experienced on a captain, they are good I've seen but have limited mob taunts? Warden vs Captain? Not sure depends on situation I guess, but id tend to give it to the warden, putting only the Guardian ahead.

Runekeeper and Hunter beat them in dps granted. But as I mention on the previous thread, the Hunter was buffed to be competetive with the Runekeeper, another OP class. A warden will do more single target dps than a Champ, Champ is better AoE.

Warden is obviously your main and you want to defend it from a Nerf, but it does need a Nerf Imo. Dps of some classes does need a nerf too. If we keep increasing dps then we will be just one shotting mobs and each other even more. Most content is too easy now. But the Warden will have the easiest time of all, it can do it all, a one man army.

Yes Wardens have ranged. Not as good as melee though, which is very good, but they still have it if needed.

Bad wardens will fair far worse though and so make them seem balanced or in need of actual buffs, as you suggest.

The guardian and Captain have dps(red) lines too, but I don't see them doing the dps of a Warden, only true dps classes can compete with a Warden. Beorning dps is bad compared, but maybe it does not need the buff and just that others need a Nerf.

Don't worry though, doubtful they will Nerf it now. Players have complained about the Warden for years now and little has been done.

I have lots of endgame toons, I dont worry about warden getting nerfed but a dps nerf in red line is not needed atm.
If you played warden,I think you are trying to ignore or cant understand that soloing things are mostly done in blue line, 'your one man army' can only be done and with lots of practice and in blue on challenging instances. Therefore as I said the only nerf that can be reasonable would be blue dps nerf. That being said, who cares if a class is soloing instances that doesnt matter anymore, if you think its doable than roll the class and give it a try. I am sure 85%of the whole players will fail to do it. This is a guardian dps thread anyway, we shouldnt keep talking on this matter anymore but if a class is not the best in dps I cant see the logic for nerfing it down. There are like 4 dps classes anyway, of course you wouldnt expect a mini to compete with a warden dps and wardens range dps is a joke bad at support too so its not even worth mentioning. There should be something that the class is best at,otherwise why would people play the class(like in beornings case).

[Happychappy]

Point is the Warden is a tank class but can also be very high dps. A Guardian is a tank class too but only low dps in red. Should they buff one or just Nerf the other or a mix of the both?

Or is the Warden so special it can have it all? I don't think so.

[Old_Relic]

In many ways the problem is that the Guard class has maintained it's role as a meat shield/tank while much of the general content has moved to DPS races. The best example of this is the timed boss kills in the 'epic battles' - zero need for tanking skils, AOE or the stacking of damage over time, but 100% need for DPS rates to beat the timer. This now seems to becoming the norm in PVE were single high morale targets have to be dispatched and the only reason that a Guard needs any moral/BPE is that their DPS level means it takes a long time to kill the target. The fact that we have to often go after single targets then negates our AOE skills.

In general play I keep getting settled into the fight with a target to find it just unexpectedly dies on me way before I would have expected to killed it, when I look at the logs its just because another player has used their range attack and basically one shot it, while I was expecting to continue the fight for many seconds.

Another way you can tell that things have become unbalanced is the simple fact that you never see a call out from one class player to another class player to help with some content they are trying to do. back in the distant past as a guard I would be asked to help other classes with content that they could not deal with on their own, and at times I would be on the look out for a healer to help me. The game has been simplified a lot since those days.