Dwarf women and rethinking the Dwarven race according to lore thread - The time is now!

[Legiorlos]

I updated my proposal from my original proposal after listening to others and after taking other peoples viewpoints into consideration; for this, I have been trolled, harassed and accused of being intellectually dishonest. For me, in the real world people are allowed to change their viewpoints as they learn from others in order to better improve themselves. This is called being pragmatic; and the opposite of pragmatism is ideological purity.

The purpose of this thread is to encourage an open and fair conversation on the topic where everyone's viewpoints should matter. I ask that people please respect the opinions of others (even if theirs is different then your own opinions), without name calling or repeatedly flaming them. If you feel like someone is trolling, harassing or repeatedly attempting to cyberbully you into silence just for having a different opinion, just put them on ignore.





I have 2 criteria with which I base my proposal:
1- To give players more options/choice/freedom to play their character the way they want in accordance with what Tolkien said about his support for applicability in order to support greater player immersion and facilitating RP
2- Make sure these options fit into a well thought out interpretation of lore

Has the current status of Dwarves worked for stating the existence of two genders does exist? Yes it has and I agree the game has mentioned Dwarven women in various cases. Has it worked well enough to match both of these criteria? That is what's debatable. But in my opinion, no; there is room for improvement here.
From both the perspective of player options and interaction in addition to the lore aspect game (in comparison to the other races), I think the game could do better in both criteria.

As was mentioned here:

SSG has indicated that, on their own initiative, they're looking at new character graphics. So making a relatively minor change such as this would naturally fit into such an effort. In fact, as I understand it, even after they've added the new graphics, players will have the option to continue using the old ones. That might present another opportunity to make "everyone" happy, as you'd in theory have the option to keep things exactly as they are now if you're not happy with the new graphics, including differences (however minor) between male and female dwarfs.

Proposal:

Give Dwarves two character models a "Dwarf perspective model" and an "other races perspective model"
Have a Male/Female option on Dwarf character select screen and keep using the same old (Male looking) character models for Dwarves. Make sure that Dwarf players can recognize correct pronouns on emotes and that the other races can not (including when speaking to Dwarf women npcs) .

In accordance with the interpretation that the reason outsiders can't tell Dwarf genders apart is due to the males being very protective of the females (therefore disguising them in male clothing when they go out);
Female Dwarves were very similar in voice and appearances to Dwarf males, that only Dwarves could figure out which is which. The current status quo is that "What the other races see" also affects how a Dwarf sees things. Basing a Dwarfs perspective on what other races see is also lore-breaking but it is how things are set up currently so therefore my solution seeks to fix this oversight in a way that make things both more choice and more Lore based.

This solution is based on the fact that Dwarves can indeed tell each other apart (even if the other races can't) The fix would be for both Dwarf men and Dwarf women to have 2 character models each (one character model that the other races see that looks similar to the original Dwarf models and a second one that only dwarves can see for both Dwarf men and Dwarf women that looks noticeably masculine and feminine from another Dwarves perspective). Since similar technology is already in place in the game that could do this (think layering type technology similar to what's already used in some quest zones where things change as the quest progresses or used in some session play instances or similar to whats used in ranger play and troll play in PVMP); I would think it would be easy to implement into the game (although I could be wrong about that the only one who knows for sure would be Standing Stone Games). Also only Dwarves will see the pronoun difference. As far as the other races can tell there will be absolutely no difference between the genders when they look at a dwarf character.

This is my preferred solution that seeks to solve the "asexual Dwarf" problem and also accommodate everyone's interpretation of lore. I made this to be a solution that works for everyone.
Since a character model redesign is supposedly in the works I think that after that get implemented would be a good time for the devs to work on this.


I just want to clarify something here. My solution is not meant to have dwarves running around in dresses from other races perspectives. It was meant so that dwarves will look exactly the way they look now (decidedly masculine including in the clothing they are wearing) from other races perspectives while also including one additional/alternate character model that would look exaggeratedly masculine or exaggeratedly feminine (dresses & all) but only from Dwarf players perspectives (this is for the purpose of player immersion and facilitating RP. The second character model could include dresses, beard accessories etc., But would only been seen this way by other Dwarf players. In short, as far as what other non-Dwarf races would see, absolutely nothing would change from the way things are now.


Freedom of the player to interpret the lore for themselves needs to take priority over what is perceived as Tolkiens true intention. Why? Because applicability rather then allegory is what Tolkien himself supports. :
My point is to simply give players more options to play their character the way THEY want to play them as long as it can be explained as a "readers interpretation" of the lore.

I'm generally all about giving people more options with as much customization as possible when it comes to Dwarf women and just about everything else. Over the years the devs have put so much detail into this game that if they're going to do a total character model remake it makes sense to me that they split the Dwarven race into both male and female, then they should finally add Dwarven women into the game (and call a Dwarf male, a Dwarf male!), and not do it half-assed either. IMO they should take their time and think this through and in the end do Dwarves justice with their new character models and 2 genders rather then only 1.




In my own opinion, this is a pretty good artists rendition based on Tolkien's vision of Dwarf woman (although she wouldn't look that way to non-Dwarves due to her disguising herself as a male when traveling by wearing Dwarf male clothing & possibly covering part of her face with a scarf so that you can't tell that her beard is not really a complete testosterone-fueled full male beard etc).


Even though this thread is mostly about Dwarf women, my proposition will include the whys and how's of how Standing Stone games should update the Dwarven race overall, including both male and female


I started playing LOTRO many years ago and even then I was a bit perplexed with what they did with Dwarves. I love Tolkien Dwarves (in accordance with the books and especially a depicted in the Silmarillion) and have a great respect for them based on those books, but as it stands right now in LOTRO even male dwarves are not even called male dwarves. The Dwarven race is basically treated like some type intelligent asexual beings in the game without any regards to gender (by the way, bacteria are also asexual beings). As one of the great races in Middle Earth, Dwarves deserve more players choice and options IMO.

Now Standing Stone Games represents a fresh start for LOTRO by putting the devs creativity in charge of this already great game (without the restrictions that were previously holding them back).

The time has come for two Dwarf genders including the long awaited addition of Dwarf Women to the game.
I've heard arguments both for and against this and I think the time has come to drive this point home; my proposition is a Tolkien-lore based proposition.


The way I envision Tolkien Dwarves are based on my interpretation of the books. They are the descendants of the Dwarves of the First Age (as stated those Dwarves would fight a Dragon for their king and wore fierce looking masks in battle & yet also make business by trade with the Elves of Beleriand). I imagine that as the best builders and architects in Middle Earth, renting out their services to the Elves was also something that was possibly done. I think the original look and overall style of Tolkien Dwarves in many games was too influenced at the time Peter Jacksons movies. PJ tended to use Dwarves as comic relief as a race of fat, lazy drunkards who often lounged around drinking all smelled bad. I don't Dwarves this way at all.

Some lore about Dwarves as a people:
Dwarves were often seen as greedy, but their nature gave them resistance to many external influences, including to the evil of the Rings of Power given them. Whereas the Men who owned the nine Rings were corrupted and became the Nazgûl, the Dwarves were unaffected, save by an increase of their goldlust and hatred for anything that stood between them and what they perceived as their treasure.
Dwarves were a proud and stern race and were made to be sturdy to resist the dangers of their time. They were physically very strong, had great endurance, especially in the ability to resist heat and cold, and they made light of heavy burdens.
Dwarves were taught special skills by the Vala Aulë and spent most of their time crafting, smithing and mining in their massive underground cities.
The Dwarves were some of the greatest miners ever to exist in Middle-earth. The Dwarves dug immense halls under mountains where they built their cities.
They were also capable masons and smiths - Dwarven smithing skills were said to be rivaled only by those of the Elves, and their masonry creations were bested by none. The skill of the Dwarves was unmatched; they crafted objects of great beauty out of diamond, emerald, ruby and sapphire. Everything Dwarven was beautifully crafted and intricate. They crafted many famed weapons, armors, and items of art and beauty, among them Narsil, the sword of Elendil, the Dragon-helm of Dor-lómin and the necklace Nauglamír.


Dwarves are known for spending their days with hard work, toiling with hard physical labor every day to build things. They are the hardest working people in Middle Earth, the greatest architects and likely understand finance better then any other race (based on their history of extensive trading with other races). Dwarves are both smart & and most likely extremely physically fit and stocky from all that daily hard work, and they should have very athletic looking bodies (not based on the 2001-2003 Peter Jacksons vision of Middle Earth Dwarves who seemed like a race of fat, lazy drunkards who often lounged around drinking and smelled bad. This was done at the time for comic relief purposes. Based on a lore, I think the new Dwarf models (both male and female) should be all these things: short, stocky, highly muscular & athletic looking.

Given their active physical labor filled lifestyle, here are how I feel average Dwarves bodies would accurately look like (I admit the female should have a beard too of course but this rendition is to point out that given that Dwarves spend most of their days in grueling, hard physical labor, this what I think an average Dwarves physique would mostly likely look like based on their lifestyle):
Female:


Male:


Over the years many LOTRO players simply grew older. In a game that advertises violence and drinking and pipe weed usage in a warning label, I really wouldn't mind a new look for Dwarves (and all the races) that's a bit less cartoony and more realistic looking and more lore based too.



Yes Dwarf women have beards!


The most canonical evidence for this comes in Appendix A, where it is said of Dwarf women that

They are in voice and appearance, and in garb if they must go on a journey, so like to the dwarf-men that the eyes and ears of other peoples cannot tell them apart.
It seems that (male) Dwarves in Middle-earth all have beards: among other evidence, as Bilbo sets out on his adventure in The Hobbit, we read that "His only comfort was that he couldn't be mistaken for a dwarf, as he had no beard." Given that, the quote above must imply that Dwarf women were bearded as well.
However, we do not need to rely on such implications: Tolkien answered this question explicitly in other texts. In The War of the Jewels ("The Later Quenta Silmarillion: Of the Naugrim and the Edain", written ~1951), Tolkien wrote that
no Man nor Elf has ever seen a beardless Dwarf - unless he were shaven in mockery, and would then be more like to die of shame... For the Naugrim have beards from the beginning of their lives, male and female alike...



There's also no reason to think that the part that says "Dwarven woman look no noticeably different then Dwarven men" (which was by the way only from the perspective of other races) part in the books must absolutely mean that Dwarf women must look 100% recognizably masculine or that Dwarf men must look 100% recognizably feminine; or that they absolutely must conform to a very overtly non-humanoid type standard (to an alien race I'm sure that human women would not appear recognizably different to them then human men do).
Also it has been brought up that the reason other races can't tell each gender part is mostly due to Dwarves being very protective of their women, often hiding them away partially for purposes of continuation of the species. Therefore Dwarf women would be dressed to look like Dwarf men while travelling but when they go home to the Dwarf Halls after the changed out of those male looking clothing would look decidedly feminine to the other Dwarves.




An attempt to better understand Tolkien's intention (of lack of intention) in regards to Dwarf women.
(I think it's not just about what he said but also about what he didn't say. Not just an either/or thing but a both/and thing)


What's more important? The words a person uses when they speak or the underlying purpose behind those words? The two are not always the same. What's more important, the letter of the law or the purpose behind the law? I'm more interceded in the purpose because if you follow the purpose you're also going to be following the law (while understanding why you follow it)? Follow?


I do not consider myself a lore pursuit (and as stated by others, Lotro has already been filling in gaps in the lore all over the place with this game but its better then LOTRO not existing at all IMO) but that doesn't mean that I have to be lore purist to respect the lore either. I think it's possible to both respect the lore and also not become too literal about it either.

To better understand where my thinking comes from when it comes to lore let's look at what Tolkien said about allegory.

“I cordially dislike allegory in all its manifestations, and always have done so since I grew old and wary enough to detect its presence. I much prefer history – true or feigned– with its varied applicability to the thought and experience of readers. I think that many confuse applicability with allegory, but the one resides in the freedom of the reader, and the other in the purposed domination of the author.”
~ J.R.R. Tolkien, The Fellowship of the Ring


Also, Tolkien wrote the following about the idea behind the One Ring:
"I should say that it was a mythical way of representing the truth that potency (or perhaps potentiality) if it is to be exercised, and produce results, has to be externalized and so as it were passes, to a greater or lesser degree, out of one's direct control." (Letter #211, 1958)

Tolkien always strongly held that The Lord of the Rings was not allegorical, particularly in reference to political events of his time such as World War II or the Cold War. At the same time he conceded "applicability" as being within the "freedom" of the reader and indeed many people have been inclined to view the One Ring as a symbol or metaphor. The notion of a power too great for humans to safely possess is an evocative one however and I think it's safe to say that the One Ring is a symbol in the broader sense that represents ultimate power and highlighting mankind's weakness for it. Many readers are free to view it that way (symbolically)… and perhaps as a reader Tolkien did too.

Tolkien obviously did not care very much about exact details when it comes to Dwarf women as evidenced by the fact that he only mentioned one Dwarf woman by name in his entire legendarium (Dis the daughter of Thrain II, she was also the mother of Fili and Kili), therefore there is a strong case to be made that the part of "Dwarven woman look no noticeably different then Dwarven men" was only referring to their general physique (short, stocky etc.), rather than any exact detailed aspects. Another way of looking is this is that if we interpret "Dwarven woman look no noticeably different then Dwarven men" 100% literally then perhaps Dwarf men should also have breasts? Why do Dwarf men, not have breasts????
Add to that the common sense approach. Dwarf women would have more estrogen then Dwarf men and since estrogen affects hair growth therefore Dwarf women would have much less beard. A Dwarf woman's beard would look more like slightly furry sideburns.

In his revisions to the Silmarillion, written in 1951 in an attempt to make the book publishable in conjunction with The Lord of the Rings, Tolkien says this in his chapter "Of The Naugrim and the Edain: Concerning the Dwarves":
For the Naugrim have beards from the beginning of their lives, male and female alike; nor indeed can their womenkind be discerned by those of other race, be it in feature or in gait or in voice, nor in any wise save this: that they go not to war, and seldom save at direst need issue from their deep bowers and halls." - HoME XI, p. 205, bold by squire, here and below.

This long section on the origins and culture of the Dwarves was omitted from the published Silmarillion by Christopher Tolkien - I don't know why (though I have no doubt he explains himself somewhere in the labyrinth that is History of Middle-earth!).

J.R.R. Tolkien, in composing the appendices of LotR in roughly the same period, wrote out several versions of the text called "Durin's Folk" (LotR Appendix A.III) that pick up on some of the information he had developed for the up to date Silmarillion. A draft of the appendix is presented in HoME XII, which is longer than the text finally published, with more details on Dwarven society and culture. But Christopher Tolkien is often reluctant to reprint drafts that don't differ significantly from the published edition, and so he tells us, as he deftly omits the section of the draft of A.III that discusses Dwarf women:
This [i.e., this draft text on how Dwarves age] is followed by the information attributed to Gimli concerning the Dwarf-women,which was preserved in Appendix A (RK p. 360). There is no difference in substance to the present text, except for the statements that they are never forced to wed against their will (which 'would of course be impossible'), and that they have beards. This latter is also said in the 1951 revision of the Quenta Silmarillion (XI.205, para. 5) [reprinted above - squire]. - HoME XII, 285

So Tolkien evidently chose not to say explicitly that Dwarf-women had beards in LotR, when he had been planning to do so in his drafts. Instead, he restricted himself to what is implied by the statement that males and females could not be distinguished by outsiders!

I think he was more interested in the implications for Dwarf culture of the 'fact' that males outnumbered females two to one, with the attendant distortions of settlement, mating, and creating practices relative to Men, Elves, and Hobbits.


Also, yes Tolkien mentioned that Dwarf women were few in number but perhaps this has been over-exaggerated over the years by the fact that women amongst all the races were only mentioned 18% of the time while the male population of Middle Earth was mentioned 82% of the time. http://lotrproject.com/statistics/ This would mean if you take that literally you would have to conclude that this represents the overall male to female ratio of middle earth (which doesn't make sense IMO). I think this is one of those cases where is not so much what Tolkien said but what Tolkien didn't say that takes precedence here. I think this is one such case where you have to read between the lines. I think its safe to assume that overall amongst all the races, women make up about 50% of the population of Middle Earth (just because the other 32% women were not mentioned does not mean that they weren't part of the story). Along these lines I think that Dwarf women were not too few in number to the point of not deserving representation in LOTRO.




Its rumored that Standing Stone games is getting ready to revamp the entire character models of all the races anyways. If that rumor is true then they are already working on this so there would be no better time for Dwarven implementation then after their new character redesign (save the Dwarves for last with the SSGs redesign). As for the RP, purposes I would think that anything that encourages more lore into RPing sessions would actually contribute to the RP. If you're playing as another race and looking at your Dwarf buddy, then from your perspective nothing is going to change in what you see (except possibly if they use the new Dwarf redesign models that are already being planned by SSG), however, if you're playing as a Dwarf then you should be able to see things differently when looking at another Dwarf as well as male/female pronoun system that actually works (but only from a Dwarves perspective). A Dwarf player should look very masculine or very feminine to another Dwarf player but not to the other races (because according to the lore from the other races perspective all Dwarves look "the same"). Not only is this very lore appropriate but also Dwarves are supposed to be a bit more isolated as a race anyways so this would all be a really good thing for RP purposes too IMO (and could introduce some fun scenarios too). From a technical standpoint this would be very easy to implement especially after SSGs new character redesign update. All the technology is already in place to make this happen (the same technology thats already been in use for many years for things like session play could easily be used for this purpose).




Please help us stand up for both Dwarven mens and womans right to exist in this game as separate genders thus giving players more options when playing their Dwarf characters by signing the petition and showing your support:
https://www.change.org/p/standing-st...edium=copylink

[cdq1958]

No.

This game is based on books written by an author who clearly said that only Dwarves could spot their sexual dimorphism. He also said that the female part was only one third of the population, so the Dwarves fiercely protected them. When a female Dwarf had to go on a journey, they looked and sounded just like their male counterparts, in the minds of non-Dwarves.

No, just no. It is a good thing that their license does not allow it.

[Radhruin_EU]

Much of what you've been taught to believe about Dwarves and Dwarf women is wrong.

Err... no, it's just you that's wrong.

This is a very realistic and lore accurate artists rendition of what Tolkien's vision of a Dwarf woman would most likely look like (I will explain later).

Nope. You can say that you'd prefer it if there were evidently female Dwarves who looked like that, but the game's version goes along with Tolkien's own ideas, to whit:

- Dwarf-women had beards. Not neat little sideburns, beards. We're told that beards were a matter of pride to Dwarves, they strongly identified with them.

- Dwarf-women were supposed to be effectively indistinguishable from male Dwarves if they were dressed the same, which means they wouldn't look evidently feminine to our eyes. Which is notionally why you can't see any in-game... they're there all right, you just can't tell they're women.

End of story. That 'athletic' thing of yours is also really dubious, as anyone who's so much as read The Hobbit knows. That's just your imagination, nothing Tolkien ever said bears that out. Plus I don't know what you were thinking when you posted a picture of a character with a bare midriff, nothing could be more obviously generic fantasy or have less to do with Tolkien.

There's also no reason to think that the part that says "Dwarven woman look no noticeably different then Dwarven men" (which was by the way only from the perspective of other races) part in the books must absolutely mean that they must look recognizably masculine or that they absolutely must conform to a very overtly non-humanoid type standard (to an alien race I'm sure that human women would not appear recognizably different to them then human men do)

Given the fact that Dwarves were heavily bearded and powerfully muscled, which to us are masculine traits, the obvious implication is that they'd all appear masculine to us. Then there's the matter of the Norse and Germanic myths and legends Tolkien borrowed them from, where all the Dwarves are male. It's not at all hard to see what he was getting at - if you don't like it and want something different then just say so, don't try to pretend it's something other than what it is. Your version clashes with Tolkien's.

Add to that the common sense approach. Dwarf women would also likely have more estrogen then Dwarf men and since that affects hair growth therefore Dwarf women would have much less beard. A Dwarf woman's beard would look more like slightly furry sideburns (similar to a Japanese cat woman look).

Not only is it silly to try to bring science into fantasy, but we're not talking about human beings or anything even related to them. Aule made the Dwarves as his own idea of what people should be like. They don't have to be like us, The game has the right idea already.

[Azmadais]

Adding Dwarven females to the game probably makes a hell of a lot more sense than adding High Elves as a race like SSG is planning on doing with the Mordor expansion, and honestly I would much rather have Dwarven females added than High Elves, since High Elves technically already exist in the game based on the different homeland options you can chose for Elf players at the character creation screen.

[Amorey]

Much of what you've been taught to believe about Dwarves and Dwarf women is wrong.

Your interpretation of how Dwarven women should be is incorrect. In a generic fantasy MMO ...yes Dwarven women could and should look like that, not in LOTRO though. Mind you I would not mind if they were a bit more 'feminine' but we must be realistic , it is very unlikely we will see female Dwarves like the one you are showing in game.

[Radhruin_EU]

Adding Dwarven females to the game probably makes a hell of a lot more sense than adding High Elves as a race like SSG is planning on doing with the Mordor expansion, and honestly I would much rather have Dwarven females added than High Elves, since High Elves technically already exist in the game based on the different homeland options you can chose for Elf players at the character creation screen.

I keep seeing people say this and no, none of the choices of origin imply High Elves in particular because there were Sindar living in Rivendell and Lindon, not just Noldor. And like I said the last time this came up, Elrond had servants, it wasn't as if everyone there was an Elf-lord or lady. So I'm afraid that really doesn't make feminine Dwarves look any better by contrast, especially as technically female Dwarves already exist in-game.

[The_Warg]

Like most above me have said, this is a poor idea (not a poorly thought idea- credit to the OP for posting their suggestion) because it does go against the lore, and it's just nonsensical in the first place. Why do we need female dwarves if they would just look exactly the same as male dwarves, as Tolkien wrote in his legendarium? If you want your dwarf to be female, just role-play her that way. It would be a waste of developer time and money to just add a "Female" option to the dwarf class. -As a side note, please never ever post another picture of a midriff-baring, beardless, "athletic" dwarf while stating that is how Tolkien imagined female dwarves. I'm quite, quite positive it's not. And sideburns aren't beards, by the way.
The dwarves in the game right now don't resemble stereotypical dwarves, btw..

[Nymphonic]

No.

This game is based on books written by an author who clearly said that only Dwarves could spot their sexual dimorphism. He also said that the female part was only one third of the population, so the Dwarves fiercely protected them. When a female Dwarf had to go on a journey, they looked and sounded just like their male counterparts, in the minds of non-Dwarves.

No, just no. It is a good thing that their license does not allow it.

I have to agree with this. Not too many things were made clear by Tolkien, but this is one of them.

[Azmadais]

If playable female dwarves are a bad idea, could they at least be depicted in the game in some form them, like maybe having a few female dwarf NPCs inside the Dwarf settlements like Thorin's Halls and other such places, which would be the places where they would most likely be since they are safe from danger there? I find it weird that they have never once been directly depicted anywhere in the game. Is there a reason for this? Is it because the license specifically does not allow it?

[The_Warg]

If playable female dwarves are a bad idea, could they at least be depicted in the game in some form them, like maybe having a few female dwarf NPCs inside the Dwarf settlements like Thorin's Halls and other such places, which would be the places where they would most likely be since they are safe from danger there? I find it weird that they have never once been directly depicted anywhere in the game. Is there a reason for this? Is it because the license specifically does not allow it?

The thing is, you wouldn't be able to tell if they're female or not. Some NPCs very well could be, but you won't know for sure unless you're explicitly told. Do you mean that you want a few mentions of this or that particular dwarf being referred to as she? Though, I'm not sure that would work well either, considering how defensive/protective male dwarves are of female dwarves. Probably wouldn't bother telling you or me.

[siipperi]

What's wrong with little hairy woman?

[Hurin]

Even though I fully disagree with the OP's position and question the conclusions. . . some obvious care was taken in choosing visuals and organizing the original post. And that deserves some recognition.

--H

[Radhruin_EU]

The thing is, you wouldn't be able to tell if they're female or not. Some NPCs very well could be, but you won't know for sure unless you're explicitly told. Do you mean that you want a few mentions of this or that particular dwarf being referred to as she? Though, I'm not sure that would work well either, considering how defensive/protective male dwarves are of female dwarves. Probably wouldn't bother telling you or me.

It's implied they dressed differently when at home but yeah, even if you visited a Dwarf-hall they'd all look and sound like Dwarves to you - some might be dressed a bit differently but unless you were actually introduced to a female Dwarf by name you'd never be sure of who was what. Unless you saw a Dwarf going off to war, because then you could be sure that was a guy. (That's the other lore thing, the male Dwarves did the fighting - the surplus male population was expendable).

I guess this is a bit weird for some people but I think it's a bit sad if even an author as relatively staid as Tolkien can weird them out

[Nymphonic]

staid

I had to Google this. I learned a new word today! Woot!


But yeah, back to the topic, bringing in female dwarves would make no sense whatsoever. As much as I dislike Runekeepers and Beorning characters, I can still see how Turbine hoped to make a profit from this.


But female dwarves? I can't see how this could bring in enough revenue to justify the expense in making this happen.


And looking at the above pictures, there is no where in Lord of the Rings that suggest that female dwarves looked feminine.

[ertr]

Why do people constantly ask for female dwarves, but never for male dwarves?
Currently you cannot select either during the character creation, they are all just dwarves with no gender specified.

Dwarves are not humans in any way. There is absolutely no reason they need to have the same type of sexual dimorphism that humans have.

[Legiorlos]

I am a Tolkien Purist and therefore thou must take everything Tolkien said on all issues 100% literal without regards to Tolkien's original intention:
The stubborn viewpoint that "I am a Tolkien Purist and therefore thou must take everything Tolkien said on all issues 100% literally without regards to Tolkien's original intention", IMO is actually an erroneous way of thinking in regards to Tolkien's legendarium. Tolkien was not only literal but actually also a very figurative and symbolic thinker too in many ways and to take the phrase "They are in voice and appearance, and in garb if they must go on a journey, so like to the dwarf-men that the eyes and ears of other peoples cannot tell them apart." 100% literal while completely ignoring the fact that if this were literal then the game should have given all Dwarf men breasts.
Tolkien's lack of interest in describing Dwarf women (evidenced by the fact that he only mentioned one Dwarf woman by name) shows that he simply doesn't care much about the exact 100% details of Dwarf women too much except that to other races they look the similar to Dwarf men. This could actually be interpreted in a number of ways. If you look at Tolkien's original intention for Dwarf woman he was clearly referring to them in generalities such as "Dwarf women are short & stout so therefore they look the same to other races" (and it could also mean that other races have a slight tinge of racism/sexism against Dwarves in the way they describe Dwarven women because a bearded female might look unattractive to them therefore "as rumor has it, there are no Dwarf women" "har har har get it?"). Like I said there are a number of ways that can be interpreted and if you're in the "thou must always interprets Tolkien 100% literal without regards to his original intentions" camp then your argument falls flat when you don't advocate in favor of breasts for Dwarf males.
If you read my post and put some thought into it you can tell this has nothing to do with "sexual dimorphism or anti-sexual dimorphism" for that matter. You will also notice that I'm also advocating in favor of the inclusion of Dwarf men into the game vs the current status quo asexual race with no gender (currently putting Dwarves on a similar level as bacteria).


Estrogen exists:
As far as estrogen goes, yes guys both testosterone and estrogen do exist even in Middle Earth. You know that competitive drive that males of all races get? Where do you think it comes from? This isn't rocket science it's just plain common sense, Come on!


Not many Dwarf women exist:
As for the Dwarf women having a low population I highly recommend checking out this Middle Earth population graph
http://lotrproject.com/statistics/
As stated "Only 18 % of the characters Tolkien described in his works are female. This does not mean that his world lacks women but rather that most of his stories are not centered around their point of view."
If you're going to base your anti-Dwarf women argument on population size then some of you Elven players need to practice what you preach and play your Elves a lot less than you have been (perhaps roll a Hobbit instead). This is perhaps the weakest argument against the inclusion of Dwarf women into the game.



Any more erroneous arguments against the inclusion of both Dwarf women and Dwarf men into LOTRO as an excuse just to keep the status quo and not keep improving an already great game?

[Radhruin_EU]

The outdated viewpoint that "I am a Tolkien Purist and therefore thou must take everything Tolkien said on all issues 100% literally without regards to Tolkien's original intention" is actually an erroneous way of thinking.

What do you mean, Tolkien's original intention? His intention's perfectly clear in this respect, he's absolutely consistent about it. Taking him at his word is natural because it's fantasy and so if it's a bit odd, that's just fine.

Tolkien was actually a very figurative and symbolic thinker in many ways too and to take the phrase "They are in voice and appearance, and in garb if they must go on a journey, so like to the dwarf-men that the eyes and ears of other peoples cannot tell them apart." 100% literal while completely ignoring the fact that if this were literal then the game should have given all Dwarf men breasts.

No, because again you're insisting on thinking of them in human terms. I'm going to say this again, they aren't 'human' as such. 'Human' here means the Children of Iluvatar, i.e. Elves, Men and (by implication) hobbits but not Dwarves, who were the Children of Aule and only adopted by Iluvatar because he took pity on them. This is where it's necessary to have a bit of imagination: Dwarves are plainly meant to be different, the product of a separate and unauthorised act of creation by someone who had his own ideas. So Tolkien's version is a bit too 'different' for you and you prefer a more mainstream version? Fair enough. But what you're after plainly isn't what Tolkien had in mind, and you're basically just making excuses for going with what FRPGs usually make of female Dwarves, rejecting some genuine originality of Tolkien's in favour of typical fantasy fare. Don't try to make that out to be anything other than your preference, because you have no basis of argument otherwise.

As far as estrogen goes, yes guys both testosterone and estrogen do exist even in Middle Earth. You know that competitive drive that males of all races get? Where do you think it comes from? The is just common sense, Come on!

I'm going to say this again as well, it's fantasy, a world of constructed myth and legend with trolls and dragons and whatnot, so for heaven's sake leave the science at the door. And one more time, Dwarves aren't human! They don't have to work the same!

As for the Dwarf women having a low population

It was clearly stated by Tolkien that they did, as a statement attributed to Gimli, i.e. not hearsay but supposedly straight from a Dwarf. It's right there in LOTR Appendix A, so there's no arguing it. Canonical work published in Tolkien's lifetime, with a perfectly clear context and intent. Now if this were some obscure marginalia from his messily scribbled notes it might be debatable, but in fact it's supported by stuff he said elsewhere. It is what it is. Deal with it. Again, that's some genuine originality of Tolkien's you're proposing to discard, and for no good reason.

Any more erroneous arguments against the including of Dwarf women as a lame excuse just to not change anything?

This is more than slightly ironic. Got any more erroneous arguments for the including of stereotypical feminine-looking Dwarf-women, as a lame excuse for making this game look more like D&D? Besides, what you seem to have failed to notice is that technically speaking we already have playable Dwarf-women because the game doesn't actually say outright what gender any Dwarf player-character is. It's entirely up to the player.

[Hurin]

Even though I fully disagree with the OP's position and question the conclusions. . . some obvious care was taken in choosing visuals and organizing the original post. And that deserves some recognition.

Withdrawn.

[Amorey]

don't restrict other players on a completely lore-appropriate option in order to fit your own personal preconceived notion in regards to Dwarves when Tolkien largely left the concept of Dwarf woman as a topic thats open for interpretation with a few schools of thought on the matter.

I don't think it's a 'personal preconceived notion' when it comes to Dwarves. Tolkien did give several clues on what he thought about them and the accepted canon today is that LOTRO is representing the race in the appropriate way as the Professor intended. Tolkien did leave several things 'open' in his stories, this however does not mean that SSG can alter things or add things as they like.

[Radhruin_EU]

This!

Not the way you mean it, pal.

Everything else you mentioned was previously explained if you read my original post and put some thought into it so theres no need to rehash.

What a crock.

Leaving it up to the player as long is it doesn't flat out brake lore is exactly what needs to happen and if you read my original post you will see that this is what I've been advocating all along.
There is a need for both male and female Dwarves in this game so let the players decide for themselves what toons they want to play as long as its lore-appropriate and including both male and female Dwarves absolutely is lore-appropriate (for reasons I've described previously). Anyone who's arguing against this is in fact arguing for an exclusionary game and not for an inclusionary game. They are arguing against the concept of giving the players lore appropriate options to allow them to play their character how they want to play them. and are instead letting their own personal bias restrict this as an additional option for other players besides themselves. If you don't want to play as a Dwarf female (or male for that matter) then I recommend that you don't. But don't restrict other players on a completely lore-appropriate option in order to fit your own personal preconceived notion in regards to Dwarves when Tolkien largely left the concept of Dwarf woman as a topic thats open for interpretation with a few schools of thought on the matter.

We've got the lore-appropriate options already, the game had it right to begin with. All you want to do is to make it more like typical fantasy - that's not a legitimate interpretation, it's not lore-appropriate in the least, that's simply wanting to change it because you don't actually care for Tolkien's version. What next? Elves with foot-long pointy ears and green hair because that's how some people imagine them? Calling something lore-appropriate when it plainly isn't is intellectual dishonesty, pure and simple - you're trying to go all 'post-truth' on us.

[Legiorlos]

[QUOTE=Radhruin_EU;7712022]

The outdated viewpoint that "I am a Tolkien Purist and therefore thou must take everything Tolkien said on all issues 100% literally without regards to Tolkien's original intention" is actually an erroneous way of thinking.

What do you mean, Tolkien's original intention? His intention's perfectly clear in this respect, he's absolutely consistent about it. Taking him at his word is natural because it's fantasy and so if it's a bit odd, that's just fine.

Look at everything he said (And didn't say) about Dwarf women. Read between the lines. The consistency behind his thinking seems to be that he likely doesn't care much about the details of Dwarf women except for in a few mentioned phrases (phrases that can be interpreted in a few ways and a description from the perspective of other races). His intention was clearly to leave this topic mostly open to interpretation by the readers (as he did with a number of other topics too by the way).

Tolkien was actually a very figurative and symbolic thinker in many ways too and to take the phrase "They are in voice and appearance, and in garb if they must go on a journey, so like to the dwarf-men that the eyes and ears of other peoples cannot tell them apart." 100% literal while completely ignoring the fact that if this were literal then the game should have given all Dwarf men breasts.

No, because again you're insisting on thinking of them in human terms. I'm going to say this again, they aren't 'human' as such. 'Human' here means the Children of Iluvatar, i.e. Elves, Men and (by implication) hobbits but not Dwarves, who were the Children of Aule and only adopted by Iluvatar because he took pity on them. This is where it's necessary to have a bit of imagination: Dwarves are plainly meant to be different, the product of a separate and unauthorised act of creation by someone who had his own ideas. So Tolkien's version is a bit too 'different' for you and you prefer a more mainstream version? Fair enough. But what you're after plainly isn't what Tolkien had in mind, and you're basically just making excuses for going with what FRPGs usually make of female Dwarves, rejecting some genuine originality of Tolkien's in favour of typical fantasy fare. Don't try to make that out to be anything other than your preference, because you have no basis of argument otherwise.

For one thing, you're incorrectly taking things I've said out of context.
I'm making a point. If you've read my original post you would know that I advocate against typical pop culture mainstream versions of Dwarves (fat, lazy, smell bad , sit around drinking all day etc.). Many Tolkien Dwarves spend their days toiling in hard physical labor every day which would lead to a muscular physique unless otherwise stated by Tolkien (not by peoples preconceived notions). The new Dwarf models should reflect this.
As for gender differences, for example to an aliens perspective both a man and a woman might look the same but to a humans perspective there is a clear difference. Your argument seems to be in favor or restricting Dwarf players (who can tell the difference between both genders) from being able to have this difference at all in order to suit the preferences of the other races but not the preference of the individual player (even Dwarf players who clearly according to lore should be able to tell the difference)

As far as estrogen goes, yes guys both testosterone and estrogen do exist even in Middle Earth. You know that competitive drive that males of all races get? Where do you think it comes from? The is just common sense, Come on!

I'm going to say this again as well, it's fantasy, a world of constructed myth and legend with trolls and dragons and whatnot, so for heaven's sake leave the science at the door. And one more time, Dwarves aren't human! They don't have to work the same!

Not just science but basic, simple common sense. But obviously inconvenient for your argument so you just toss this out the window?

As for the Dwarf women having a low population
It was clearly stated by Tolkien that they did, as a statement attributed to Gimli, i.e. not hearsay but supposedly straight from a Dwarf. It's right there in LOTR Appendix A, so there's no arguing it. Canonical work published in Tolkien's lifetime, with a perfectly clear context and intent. Now if this were some obscure marginalia from his messily scribbled notes it might be debatable, but in fact it's supported by stuff he said elsewhere. It is what it is. Deal with it. Again, that's some genuine originality of Tolkien's you're proposing to discard, and for no good reason.

There you go taking my words out of context again. In addition you just attempted to turn it into a straw-man argument; Nice try. I never disagreed with the facts when it comes to the low Dwarf woman population. My point had to do with how many Elf players are "braking the lore" when there's just as many Elf players as race of Man players. In other words this is a weak argument against allowing people to play as a Dwarf female.

Any more erroneous arguments against the including of Dwarf women as a lame excuse just to not make improvements to an already great game?

This is more than slightly ironic. Got any more erroneous arguments for the including of stereotypical feminine-looking Dwarf-women, as a lame excuse for making this game look more like D&D? Besides, what you seem to have failed to notice is that technically speaking we already have playable Dwarf-women because the game doesn't actually say outright what gender any Dwarf player-character is. It's entirely up to the player.

This has nothing to do with D&D. We currently have asexual (no gender) beings called Dwarves. There is no male of female Dwarves in this game and therefore there's actually less choice.
Leaving it up to the player as long is it doesn't flat out brake lore is exactly what needs to happen and if you read my original post you will see that this is what I've been advocating all along.
There is a need for both male and female Dwarves in this game so let the players decide for themselves what toons they want to play as long as its lore-appropriate and including both male and female Dwarves absolutely is lore-appropriate (for reasons I've described previously). Anyone who's arguing against this is in fact arguing for an exclusionary game and not for an inclusionary game. They are arguing against the concept of giving the players lore appropriate options to allow them to play their character how they want to play them. and are instead letting their own personal bias restrict this as an additional option for other players besides themselves. If you don't want to play as a Dwarf female (or male for that matter) then I recommend that you don't. But don't restrict other players on a completely lore-appropriate option in order to fit your own personal preconceived notion in regards to Dwarves when Tolkien largely left the concept of Dwarf woman as a topic thats open for interpretation with a few schools of thought on the matter.

[Thurallor]

to take the phrase "They are in voice and appearance, and in garb if they must go on a journey, so like to the dwarf-men that the eyes and ears of other peoples cannot tell them apart." 100% literal while completely ignoring the fact that if this were literal then the game should have given all Dwarf men breasts....
Like I said there are a number of ways that can be interpreted and if you're in the "thou must always interprets Tolkien 100% literal without regards to his original intentions" camp then your argument falls flat when you don't advocate in favor of breasts for Dwarf males.

This is a dumb argument. There are flat-chested females, and males with big pecs or "man-boobs". Even a woman with moderately-sized boobs may look flat-chested when wearing armor. It's perfectly reasonable to assume it's the same among dwarves.

[Legiorlos]

In his revisions to the Silmarillion, written in 1951 in an attempt to make the book publishable in conjunction with The Lord of the Rings, Tolkien says this in his chapter "Of The Naugrim and the Edain: Concerning the Dwarves":
For the Naugrim have beards from the beginning of their lives, male and female alike; nor indeed can their womenkind be discerned by those of other race, be it in feature or in gait or in voice, nor in any wise save this: that they go not to war, and seldom save at direst need issue from their deep bowers and halls." - HoME XI, p. 205, bold by squire, here and below.

This long section on the origins and culture of the Dwarves was omitted from the published Silmarillion by Christopher Tolkien - I don't know why (though I have no doubt he explains himself somewhere in the labyrinth that is History of Middle-earth!).

J.R.R. Tolkien, in composing the appendices of LotR in roughly the same period, wrote out several versions of the text called "Durin's Folk" (LotR Appendix A.III) that pick up on some of the information he had developed for the up to date Silmarillion. A draft of the appendix is presented in HoME XII, which is longer than the text finally published, with more details on Dwarven society and culture. But Christopher Tolkien is often reluctant to reprint drafts that don't differ significantly from the published edition, and so he tells us, as he deftly omits the section of the draft of A.III that discusses Dwarf women:
This [i.e., this draft text on how Dwarves age] is followed by the information attributed to Gimli concerning the Dwarf-women,which was preserved in Appendix A (RK p. 360). There is no difference in substance to the present text, except for the statements that they are never forced to wed against their will (which 'would of course be impossible'), and that they have beards. This latter is also said in the 1951 revision of the Quenta Silmarillion (XI.205, para. 5) [reprinted above - squire]. - HoME XII, 285

So Tolkien evidently chose not to say explicitly that Dwarf-women had beards in LotR, when he had been planning to do so in his drafts. Instead, he restricted himself to what is implied by the statement that males and females could not be distinguished by outsiders!

I think he was more interested in the implications for Dwarf culture of the 'fact' that males outnumbered females two to one, with the attendant distortions of settlement, mating, and creating practices relative to Men, Elves, and Hobbits.

[The_Warg]

Leaving it up to the player as long is it doesn't flat out brake lore is exactly what needs to happen and if you read my original post you will see that this is what I've been advocating all along.
There is a need for both male and female Dwarves in this game so let the players decide for themselves what toons they want to play as long as its lore-appropriate and including both male and female Dwarves absolutely is lore-appropriate (for reasons I've described previously). Anyone who's arguing against this is in fact arguing for an exclusionary game and not for an inclusionary game. They are arguing against the concept of giving the players lore appropriate options to allow them to play their character how they want to play them. and are instead letting their own personal bias restrict this as an additional option for other players besides themselves. If you don't want to play as a Dwarf female (or male for that matter) then I recommend that you don't. But don't restrict other players on a completely lore-appropriate option in order to fit your own personal preconceived notion in regards to Dwarves when Tolkien largely left the concept of Dwarf woman as a topic thats open for interpretation with a few schools of thought on the matter.

We've got the lore-appropriate options already, the game had it right to begin with. All you want to do is to make it more like typical fantasy - that's not a legitimate interpretation, it's not lore-appropriate in the least, that's simply wanting to change it because you don't actually care for Tolkien's version. What next? Elves with foot-long pointy ears and green hair because that's how some people imagine them? Calling something lore-appropriate when it plainly isn't is intellectual dishonesty, pure and simple - you're trying to go all 'post-truth' on us.

Everything you've said on this subject has been great, especially this. ^ +Rep

[Radhruin_EU]

Look at everything he said (And didn't say) about Dwarf women. Read between the lines. The consistency behind his thinking seems to be that he likely doesn't care much about the details of Dwarf women except for in a few mentioned phrases (phrases that can be interpreted in a few ways and a description from the perspective of other races). His intention was clearly to leave this topic mostly open to interpretation by the readers (as he did with a number of other topics too by the way).-

Looks to me like he was sure about it in his own mind and it was simply to explain an apparent lack. In the context it's couched as the 'real' explanation, with the notion that there were no Dwarf-women being something 'foolish' Men had come up with. I can't see how that's compatible with the evidently female Dwarves you want - how would that story about there being no Dwarf-women have ever got started, then? That's why your would-be version is not an interpretation but a change.

I'm making a point. If you've read my original post you would know that I advocate against typical pop culture mainstream versions of Dwarves (fat, lazy, smell bad , sit around drinking all day etc.).

Indeed you have, but at the same time you're advocating in favour of a more typical pop culture version of female Dwarves.

Not just science but basic, simple common sense. But obviously inconvenient for your argument so you just toss this out the window?

When talking about a fantasy like this set in an ancient world which features mythical supernatural beings and magic, it's common sense to talk in pre-scientific terms because that's the paradigm. Science is already out the window.

This has nothing to do with D&D. We currently have asexual (no gender) beings called Dwarves. There is no male of female Dwarves in this game and therefore there's actually less choice.

No, they've simply left the gender of player-character Dwarves indeterminate. They can be either male or female according to the player's imagination, and as per lore they look and sound the same either way as far as other peoples can tell. That's a reasonable compromise - strict lore would insist that all Dwarf adventurers would be male. And no, having Dwarves who'd look (and presumably sound) evidently feminine would not be and never could be lore-appropriate, That'd be flat-out incompatible with Tolkien's version, a direct clash and it's no good you trying to pretend otherwise. Simply not credible, your argument there is nothing more than "because I say so, and if you argue then you're just biased". What baloney.