Final Verdict on New Avatars.

[Revelwoodie]

After reading everyone's posts, and experimenting a bit, I've come to some final conclusions. When I made my original post about the new avatars, I couldn't post a picture (I've since discovered the setting to fix that). Some of you may have seen this picture posted as a reply in another thread, but here it is for the rest of you. On the left, my original avatar. Her "new and improved" version is on the right. And no, these pictures are not taken with different settings. The only difference is that one is taken at "night" and the other during the "day." So maybe some of you thought my original toon looks like a doll. Fine. Can you honestly say the dead-eyed dumptruck on the right is an improvement?



Yeah, I can make changes at a barber. Not many though, right? We've gone from 22 head choices to 9. Instead of 15+ choices of eyes, all with different shapes, size, character, shading and spacing, we get only 8 choices for eyes (which are all the same basically, other than the bags). We will basically all look the same under this system. And I certainly am not going near a barber in any case, until I can be 100% assured doing so will make no changes to my existing avatar. But anyway, here's an example from character creation of the closest I can come to my original toon. Similar. But no contour, shading, character or depth. If you thought my original avatar looked like a doll, at least it was a good one. This looks like a cheap plastic doll you'd buy at a dollar store.



We have less choices. Less detail. Poorer lighting and texture. This is a huge step backward in the graphics of the game. And why was it done? Well, we wanted updates. Yes. So let's go over what we wanted, and what we got.

1) Some people joked about the 'girly' looking male elves. Well, there always were plenty of options for making your elf look manly. Many chose to make their male elves pretty, and did so for a reason. But there are a vocal subgroup of people who can't keep their mouths shut when they see a 'pretty-boy' walk by. So you heard THAT feedback, from the homophobic internet trolls. Great job. The pretty-boys are gone. Now all the male elves look like gorillas.

2) Some female elves wanted to look less 'alien' and more like human women. Great! You did it. Unfortunately, you did it for ALL female elves, and now we ALL have to look like humans with pointy ears. You could have just added some new options to the existing ones. That's all we wanted. Instead, you decided to take options away. Fail.

3) The human men were a bit brutish looking, many thought. Again, you could've added some options. Instead, you just changed ALL human men, and cut the options down to almost nothing. Another fail.

4) We wanted new hairdos. Longer styles, for instance. The longest hair a woman can have barely touches her shoulders. Did we get that? Nope. Braided styles, especially for women from Rohan. Did we get those? Nope.

In short, we got nothing we asked for, and everything that no one asked for. Unless there was some segment of the community that was asking for fewer choices? People who wanted everyone to look the same? People who wanted simpler, less realistic faces? No? Is this just an effort to save bandwidth by dumbing down the graphics of the game? If that's really necessary, and maybe it is, then lose some of the shrubbery and give us our faces back. Thanks.

None of this would matter if the promise to keep our old avatars, if we wanted, proved true. But apparently what you meant was that I could choose to see myself that way if I wanted, but what I look like to other people would be up to them. I can choose my outfits. My armour. My horse. Even cosmetic weapons. But I can't choose my own face? That's up to other people now? Seriously, what were you thinking?

This entire "upgrade" is a failure, in every respect. And if your thought is, "Well, the majority of players don't care about that stuff," you may be right. And that's the same majority of players who could up and leave this game tomorrow if something cool came out on PS4. Your brand loyal players - the RPers, musicians, people who attend social events, etc., THEY CARE. You are playing a dangerous game by burning these people, counting on a majority not to care. Because the people who don't care, you have no hold on them to begin with. And by messing with people's avatars, you're going to lose your hold on the rest of us as well.

[LagunaD2]

It really bothers me that in some cases, the "improved" characters are not even recognizable.

And as you say, there is much less variation available in the heads/faces now.

Unfortunately, everything SSG does now is rushed and sloppy.

[VeryBeary]

After reading everyone's posts, and experimenting a bit, I've come to some final conclusions. When I made my original post about the new avatars, I couldn't post a picture (I've since discovered the setting to fix that). Some of you may have seen this picture posted as a reply in another thread, but here it is for the rest of you. On the left, my original avatar. Her "new and improved" version is on the right. And no, these pictures are not taken with different settings. The only difference is that one is taken at "night" and the other during the "day." So maybe some of you thought my original toon looks like a doll. Fine. Can you honestly say the dead-eyed dumptruck on the right is an improvement?



Yeah, I can make changes at a barber. Not many though, right? We've gone from 22 head choices to 9. Instead of 15+ choices of eyes, all with different shapes, size, character, shading and spacing, we get only 8 choices for eyes (which are all the same basically, other than the bags). We will basically all look the same under this system. And I certainly am not going near a barber in any case, until I can be 100% assured doing so will make no changes to my existing avatar. But anyway, here's an example from character creation of the closest I can come to my original toon. Similar. But no contour, shading, character or depth. If you thought my original avatar looked like a doll, at least it was a good one. This looks like a cheap plastic doll you'd buy at a dollar store.



We have less choices. Less detail. Poorer lighting and texture. This is a huge step backward in the graphics of the game. And why was it done? Well, we wanted updates. Yes. So let's go over what we wanted, and what we got.

1) Some people joked about the 'girly' looking male elves. Well, there always were plenty of options for making your elf look manly. Many chose to make their male elves pretty, and did so for a reason. But there are a vocal subgroup of people who can't keep their mouths shut when they see a 'pretty-boy' walk by. So you heard THAT feedback, from the homophobic internet trolls. Great job. The pretty-boys are gone. Now all the male elves look like gorillas.

2) Some female elves wanted to look less 'alien' and more like human women. Great! You did it. Unfortunately, you did it for ALL female elves, and now we ALL have to look like humans with pointy ears. You could have just added some new options to the existing ones. That's all we wanted. Instead, you decided to take options away. Fail.

3) The human men were a bit brutish looking, many thought. Again, you could've added some options. Instead, you just changed ALL human men, and cut the options down to almost nothing. Another fail.

4) We wanted new hairdos. Longer styles, for instance. The longest hair a woman can have barely touches her shoulders. Did we get that? Nope. Braided styles, especially for women from Rohan. Did we get those? Nope.

In short, we got nothing we asked for, and everything that no one asked for. Unless there was some segment of the community that was asking for fewer choices? People who wanted everyone to look the same? People who wanted simpler, less realistic faces? No? Is this just an effort to save bandwidth by dumbing down the graphics of the game? If that's really necessary, and maybe it is, then lose some of the shrubbery and give us our faces back. Thanks.

None of this would matter if the promise to keep our old avatars, if we wanted, proved true. But apparently what you meant was that I could choose to see myself that way if I wanted, but what I look like to other people would be up to them. I can choose my outfits. My armour. My horse. Even cosmetic weapons. But I can't choose my own face? That's up to other people now? Seriously, what were you thinking?

This entire "upgrade" is a failure, in every respect. And if your thought is, "Well, the majority of players don't care about that stuff," you may be right. And that's the same majority of players who could up and leave this game tomorrow if something cool came out on PS4. Your brand loyal players - the RPers, musicians, people who attend social events, etc., THEY CARE. You are playing a dangerous game by burning these people, counting on a majority not to care. Because the people who don't care, you have no hold on them to begin with. And by messing with people's avatars, you're going to lose your hold on the rest of us as well.

This is extremely well-expressed and I thank you.

I have wondered repeatedly about the misogynistic and homophobic suggestions underlying the changes I see, thank you for stating it.

At any rate, your post is spot on. SSG, please listen to him!!!!!

[Laerien]

Very well written and I agree with everything you said.

Sadly, this is one of the cases someone mention something, then others start repeating it until it becomes a post truth.

[DrRabbitfoot]

Question: When I uncheck the new avatar option, does that mean others see my avatar the old way or is it dependent on them unchecking the option as well?

[Revelwoodie]

Question: When I uncheck the new avatar option, does that mean others see my avatar the old way or is it dependent on them unchecking the option as well?

It depends on what option THEY have checked. You no longer have any control over what you look like to other players.

[NeoBasilisk]

I have wondered repeatedly about the misogynistic and homophobic suggestions underlying the changes I see, thank you for stating it.

you wot mate

[WayfaringNomad]

I don't typically play a lot of female characters (though I have been considering making a few), so I dabbled in the character creator to see if things were really as bad as they're made out to be. And I know that beauty is in the eye of the beholder, but I had no trouble making a few good looking female characters, and I still think the updates are a dramatic improvement.





There are some heads that need work, and I'm not trying to tell anyone that there are no problems, or that how they feel their character should look is incorrect, but it's hard for me to look between the two and think that the old version is better.

[Arabani]

It depends on what option THEY have checked. You no longer have any control over what you look like to other players.

And that is just ridiculous, it's a freak show all over the Middle Earth now. I do not have words to descibe the new look of my toons. I do not want others to see them that way. I do not want to see the missmatched faces of those who have decided to use the new avatars.

Agree with the author on 100%. Remove that "new feature" from the game, or do it the propper way.

[Kolde]

*snip*

... And if your thought is, "Well, the majority of players don't care about that stuff," you may be right. And that's the same majority of players who could up and leave this game tomorrow if something cool came out on PS4. Your brand loyal players - the RPers, musicians, people who attend social events, etc., THEY CARE. ...

^ This, exactly.

I've remained silent on this so far, but chose your thread to add my two cents.

I logged into my account Wednesday afternoon, thinking i would browse through my characters to see how they looked before logging in my main. When i saw my main character, i instantly felt sick. I have 10 characters: 1 beorning, 1 human, 1 dwarf, 2 hobbits, and 5 elves. As i checked all 5 elves, i became seriously nauseated and disgusted. This is an irreversible impression that i will never be able to shake, and will keep me from ever experiencing LotRO in the same way again. Before you think i am over-reacting, please read on.

These new faces look like photos of humans. I guess that is what the devs had in mind. These are very realistic human features, added to the faces of our elves. The problem is that elves are beings of fantasy, not of reality. Playing a game like LotRO is, for many people, an escape from reality into a much more pleasant world of fantasy. In my specific case, fully acknowledging that i would be a rare, if not unique, example, the human faces on all 5 of my elves very closely resembled a human from my life. This human has been of a great, negative significance in my life for around 20 years. This person is mentally unstable, slightly psychotic, obsessed and behaves like a stalker. This person has severed my relationship with my mother and damaged my family over these past 20 years. Not once, ever, in the seven years i have played LotRO, had that person ever crossed my mind as i entered and roamed Middle Earth... until Wednesday. That impression will never go away. LotRO will, for the rest of my life, make me think of that person.

My beautiful graceful elves, that i have cherished and adored for these past seven years, should have never reminded me of a such a vile human. My elves should have never looked like humans at all, they should have looked like elves, elves who lived in a beautiful fantasy world. Now that is completely ruined.

As soon as my main character loaded into the game, having logged out in the Slag-hills, she went straight to the barber in Minas Tirith. "Unchecking a box" was not going to take that face away from her. Even if i couldn't see it, i would know it was still there, and that was not satisfactory for me. Disappointed in the lack of options at the barber, i was determined to make my elf look like the beautiful ELF she was on Tuesday again. After several minutes, she finally looked more like her old self, and less like that vile human. I started to feel a little better, though still disgusted at the ordeal. I have not been able to stomach seeing my other elves again, so they have not been changed.

So now i had removed the vile human face from my main elf, one of five elves in my LotRO family. But... there was yet another issue. Out of curiosity, i unchecked the avatar update box. OMG. Her nose is big and somewhat flattened, her mouth protrudes, and her eyebrows are arched in a weird way... she looks like an orc. My beautiful graceful elf will look like an orc to any player that has that box unchecked. An ugly orc at that, as in another game i created an orc character who was also quite pretty. I like my characters to look pretty, even my dwarf has some pretty features. After all that work to make her look pretty with this new avatar update, anyone who has that box unchecked is going to see her as an ugly orc. I don't have the stomach to produce screen shots, but i've seen where others have done so, so refer to those if you want to see what i mean... or just look at your own character with and without the box checked.

I'm sure it's too late now, but here's what they should have done...

A. Left all existing races as they have always been. No one's characters should have ever had their faces changed, ever, period. With this update, they changed only the elf and human races, not touching the dwarf and hobbit, which proves that they could have left all five (counting beorning) races as they were without changing them at all.

B. Used the new avatar system for the high elf race. No one in the game had a high elf before Wednesday, so anyone wanting to create a high elf would have been starting brand new from scratch and could make their brand new high elf look however they wanted her/him to.

C. In future updates, create a second race set for the other existing races as well. The new races would all use the new avatar system. People who wanted a new look could have it. People who wanted to keep their characters the same they had been for the last 10+ years could keep them. Everyone's character would look the same to everyone else in the game who may have been looking at them, instead of looking pretty to one person and like an orc to another.

[jevvy]

My characters look terrible. I have obviously ticked the box to go back to the old avatar,. but that doesn't happen, all that changes is some skin tone

So we were lied to about being able to keep our old character faces. .. I must say after seeing my oldest characters faces for 10 years I'm really really sad I cannot see them anymore

The click to go back DOES NOT WORK. or just doesn't.

I will be submitting a bug report / ticket with screen shots to prove this..

PLEASE give me back my old character faces. thankyou!

[miriadel]

they won't take away the avatar update after all the time and resources they put into it. And guess what, just as you dislike it there are people who like it, so learn to live with. These rage induced threads won't solve the issue, especially they won't solve it with this kind of ridiculous illogical statement

I have wondered repeatedly about the misogynistic and homophobic suggestions underlying the changes I see, thank you for stating it.

[wispsong]

My characters look terrible. I have obviously ticked the box to go back to the old avatar,. but that doesn't happen, all that changes is some skin tone

So we were lied to about being able to keep our old character faces. .. I must say after seeing my oldest characters faces for 10 years I'm really really sad I cannot see them anymore

The click to go back DOES NOT WORK. or just doesn't.

I will be submitting a bug report / ticket with screen shots to prove this..

PLEASE give me back my old character faces. thankyou!

I just switched my female man back to old. it might be a bug for you.

[Elisawen]

I was not sure how to describe this whole mess, but the OP did it for me... Thanks!

I would like SSG to take a step back and revert this unwanted, uncreative and down-right ugly avatar change. It was NOT what we were promised.

And please, please, please leave the dwarves and hobbits alone! Do not attempt anything else like this that is clearly beyond the capacity of your team.

[Amorey]

they won't take away the avatar update after all the time and resources they put into it. And guess what, just as you dislike it there are people who like it, so learn to live with. These rage induced threads won't solve the issue, especially they won't solve it with this kind of ridiculous illogical statement

I must agree with Miriadel. The new models are here to stay.

The option is there to keep using the old ones, do so if you are unhappy with the changes. I do believe the new avatars looks much better than before

[Sprinkling]

Yikes!

I agree your character isn't looking her best. While the character you made in character creation isn't quite the same, and I see your point about the 'flat' look, I thought women looked better in beta, so maybe some of that face shape and color and shading will come back. They can still make improvements. I linked this is another thread, from beta 5 & 6... the faces were thinner, had color, and eye shading was better. I would very much prefer it if they went back to those.



Above is all beta, and here is Face 8 beta vs live.




Also it may be that when running low settings, the new characters look worse whereas the old ones keep more of their dignity even at low settings? Not sure.

Since when was there 20+ choices for heads and 15+ for eyes?? I've never seen that, but I'm only been playing the past couple years. If choices were cut, it was certainly way before this update.

I tried to remake your character and got something like this. Doesn't look so bad... Of course that's entirely subjective, which is why they allowed people to continue using the old avatars if they want to.



From my understanding, if you use old models, you will only see old models. If you use new models, you will only see new models. I haven't seen a mix of characters in game. What people see is up to them, as it should be. I wouldn't want to force my "new model" face upon anyone nor be forced to see old models myself.

I have obviously ticked the box to go back to the old avatar,. but that doesn't happen, all that changes is some skin tone...

The click to go back DOES NOT WORK. or just doesn't.

You must uncheck the box and then log in, and log back out. The old face will be there.

[Eraniel]

I agree with everything the original poster said. As to the argument of better/worse, I think that it's all more of a matter of taste. Neither model is better or worse in my opinion, just different. I agree with the OP in saying that these models should be an additional option, as in add the 9 new model faces to our original 22 for a total of 31 choices, and people can "upgrade" to the new look at the barber or not. The style of the new models is in keeping with the old ones so as not to make the hobbits/dwarfs/beornings look weird now. It's not better, not worse, just different.

And also, more long hair choices for women. /Please/. That, and more modern textures, were what we were all thinking when they said model updates. Not plastic surgery to make all the characters look the same (sans nose/lip jobs. We can all be unique by making our noses and lips different from the other barbies).

[Pfeifenkraut]

After fixing my characters at the barber, I love the changes, and would never want to go back!

I deeply hate the appearance toggle, because it's impossible to make a character that looks the way you want in both settings. I wish it was all the same way for everyone: either undo the changes, or enforce the changes, or leave control of what I display in my hands and not in the hands of other players.

[Misapprehension]

WTB rename to Chubbyface

Elven ladies look nicer with new avatars, women look worse

[Eraniel]

From what I've been reading on the forums, people who play with the Gamer style are a-okay with however anyone else sees them in-game, as long as they see what they want in their own gameplay. People who play with the Roleplayer style are mad because, how your character looks to others is a big deal when it comes to RPing. It's how you express yourself. That's why we have cosmetics. This whole issue is a matter of preference, not performance: Because the new models are not better (again, not worse either). They're just different. SSG can solve all the problems by just adding the new model options to the original options, and everyone goes home happy.

The whole model update is a case of fixing something that wasn't broken. There are people who love the old models. There are people who hate them. There are people who love the new models. There are people who hate them. Regardless of what "side" someone is on, it is ONLY because they don't want to be seen as the one vs the other. Nobody I have talked to has hated the way the new models look on other peoples' characters, they've hated how they look on their own. If everybody can pick and choose which one they want to be seen as, from character to character, we won't have a problem and the new models will be viewed by the community as a "happy birthday goodie", or a nicety that may not have been *needed* but certainly *appreciated* by those who wanted it, rather than a kink in someone's gameplay style. Complaining will be limited to the usual "Well you could've devoted resources to X instead of Y!" rather than the New Crowd vs Old Crowd, each defending their point vehemently for fear that the option they like better will be taken away.

Personally, I find that I don't mind the new models on some of my newer characters that I didn't have much of an established story/personality for already. It's opened up some great character design potential. But I really really dislike the changes on my older, more established characters. Since I feel more strongly about my established characters, I've opted for the old look. The bad outweighed the good for me. The solution I feel would work best is simply making the additional options available at the barber (if adding new options to character creation is not possible) without getting rid of the old models.

[onor]

Why couldnt they have just added some additional face/hair options, given the barber ability to change them and been done with it? I think we have to click on 2 things for it to revert to normal right? One of my female elves looks like Joan Rivers now. Its unbelievably horrible.

[Arnenna]

Too much reinventing the wheel and not enough listening to what was asked for.

"We'd love more hairstyle and face options at the barber".
"Please give the option to change our avatar build at the barber, instead of limiting it to hair only".

Pretty simple requests, easy to implement and wouldn't have cost anywhere near the time investment of what they rolled out.

Agree with the OP, but more importantly, agree with a poster above. Please don't touch hobbits. Abandon the upgrade where it is now and then we only have to "live with" half of it. I'm going to toggle back to old avatars when I log in next, and see beautiful elves again, even though they don't run right. I'll just try to stay safe in the knowledge that most people who don't like the new look, will still see my old elves as they are doing the same, and those who do like it, will see what they think is good looking. If the toggle doesn't work - expect tickets.

[sansa78]

It's not the "final verdict." It's YOUR OPINION. That's it. Some of us don't like the new avatars. Some of us, myself included, do. Don't try to turn YOUR OPINION into anything more than what it is, which is YOURS, not anybody else's. Everybody has an opinion. Express yours, but do not try to claim it's a verdict, as if there's a trial and you are the judge in the matter, because you most certainly are not!

[Eraniel]

It's not the "final verdict." It's YOUR OPINION. That's it. Some of us don't like the new avatars. Some of us, myself included, do. Don't try to turn YOUR OPINION into anything more than what it is, which is YOURS, not anybody else's. Everybody has an opinion. Express yours, but do not try to claim it's a verdict, as if there's a trial and you are the judge in the matter, because you most certainly are not!

Whoa there, calm down. Two sides to every story and all that. This topic was made by the OP, therefore the opinion expressed is the OP's "final verdict". As a title for a discussion thread, it still works because everyone can come here to express their "final verdict" on the new models. Which is great because it's differentiated from all the "Avatar Change" threads being made by people who just saw it and are expressing their initial thoughts.

[Kaeneth]

I don't typically play a lot of female characters (though I have been considering making a few), so I dabbled in the character creator to see if things were really as bad as they're made out to be. And I know that beauty is in the eye of the beholder, but I had no trouble making a few good looking female characters, and I still think the updates are a dramatic improvement.





There are some heads that need work, and I'm not trying to tell anyone that there are no problems, or that how they feel their character should look is incorrect, but it's hard for me to look between the two and think that the old version is better.

The old elves in these photos look like they just swallowed a bug, or got a bad botox. The new one on the bottom right is a great example of a nice looking female elf, much more beautiful than her old version beside her.

The only new model I don't really like are the human females. Something just looks off about them no matter how you customize them, so I can sympathize for those of you who are upset about them.

I only have male characters, but I'm quite pleased with how my elf and man look now. Far, far better than they ever did before, and I've talked to and heard from many people in game who haven't posted on the forums but feel the same way. There's a lot more of us that enjoy these new models than what the forums seem to represent. They aren't perfect, and there's improvements I would like to see, but I never even want to touch the old models again after seeing these new ones. I'm looking forward to the new avatars for hobbits and dwarves.