Final Verdict on New Avatars.

[Silmelin]

If we move the attention away from the face-shapes for a moment, I find the back of the skull-shapes a bit misshapen on the elven males.
They look too small and becomes a bit 'creepy', if I may use that word?
Also, their previously rich and fluffy hair looks very flat. In combination, the hair seems to cause the head to shrink even more.
I suspect that adding hair-volume should not add problems with the clipping of head gears, since hair seems to be removed once a hat goes on?
I hope this is something the developers are looking at already and that they won't fix the head gear clipping by making the heads even smaller.

Made a quick draw on a screenshot to illustrate. One line (green) for what seems like the possible skull-line under the models hair.
One line (white) for where the skull-line might look more naturally placed. And one line (blue) for shape of fluffy hair.

I agree with this! This is my favourite hairstyle too but now it makes the headshape wrong. That white line looks like a lot more natural shape. It could really do with a tweak. If the shape of the hair would follow the blue line it would look a lot better.

Also, that set of eyebrows I see in the picture still needs to be fixed so it doesn't look like they have been partly shaved. They might be part of the reason his forehead looks so big now?

[Arnenna]

If we move the attention away from the face-shapes for a moment, I find the back of the skull-shapes a bit misshapen on the elven males.
They look too small and becomes a bit 'creepy', if I may use that word?
Also, their previously rich and fluffy hair looks very flat. In combination, the hair seems to cause the head to shrink even more.
I suspect that adding hair-volume should not add problems with the clipping of head gears, since hair seems to be removed once a hat goes on?
I hope this is something the developers are looking at already and that they won't fix the head gear clipping by making the heads even smaller.

Made a quick draw on a screenshot to illustrate. One line (green) for what seems like the possible skull-line under the models hair.
One line (white) for where the skull-line might look more naturally placed. And one line (blue) for shape of fluffy hair.

I'm not sure they are fixing anything at all, or even reading feedback to my knowledge. Dwarves and Hobbits are in surgery, and coming out of theatre soon, hopefully at least some of what's been pointed out in this thread has been taken on board for those.

I'm not even sure what's going on with the eyebrows in that image. They look as if they were stuck on back to front. I understand the "slanty" look, but the thickest part of the brow should be on the inside.

[Silmelin]

I'm not sure they are fixing anything at all, or even reading feedback to my knowledge. Dwarves and Hobbits are in surgery, and coming out of theatre soon, hopefully at least some of what's been pointed out in this thread has been taken on board for those.

I'm not even sure what's going on with the eyebrows in that image. They look as if they were stuck on back to front. I understand the "slanty" look, but the thickest part of the brow should be on the inside.

It's very heartbreaking that there has been no reply at all for all this time Though I have been checking and comparing screenshots with my current elves since the "update" (complete revamp) went live and there HAS been small changes, though even if they are for the better it's still too small changes to really make a difference. For example for me who had made a beautiful young elf with joy in his eyes who ended up with the exact opposite, there is just no way to create something I like. All male elf choices we have now are a manly man, a very similar manly man, another slightly different manly man, a very manly man, another manly man, and a super manly man, a slightly different manly man, and another super manly man. And they all look like they are 40+, while the ladies look from young to ageless. Actually all males from all races look middle-aged or older, while the ladies can be made to look very young

About the eyebrows, they look like the same as the old ones but resized to be much smaller (which makes me sad because it makes the male elves look much older and less beautiful) and in some cases there seem to have been a problem so they got squished (which might explain that the inner part is a thin line, I don't think it was on purpose). Maybe it has something to do with the eyebrow area being pressed down into the eyes?

They should swap back the old eyebrows to give the characters back some of their personality (and youth), and if they want to have small, shaven (or plucked) eyebrows they could add them as extra options instead of forcing them on already made characters. It shouldn't give any problems since they could add them to the old avatars as well, since they are of the same quality. That way we could keep more of our characters personalities, and the shaven eyebrows could still be available, and the old avatars would get more choices too. A win-win!

[VeryBeary]

Dear SSG,

Would you please let us know the timeline for fixing this issue of our character appearance choice not being view-able by other characters? We've been asking since Mordor was released and have heard nothing definitive.

Certainly many players would come back, spend money, and play again, if their beloved characters of old could be viewed by all as the character owner created them to look....while those who like the new Avatar appearances would also have their choices view-able by all.

The primary issue is extremely well outlined in this thread, and I am sure it has been read by many on the SSG Team. A response, some indicator of hope for us, would be highly valued.

Thank you for your consideration of this matter, which is extremely important to many long-term LOTRO devotees.

[Pontin_Finnberry]

Dear SSG,

Would you please let us know the timeline for fixing this issue of our character appearance choice not being view-able by other characters? We've been asking since Mordor was released and have heard nothing definitive.

Certainly many players would come back, spend money, and play again, if their beloved characters of old could be viewed by all as the character owner created them to look....while those who like the new Avatar appearances would also have their choices view-able by all.

The primary issue is extremely well outlined in this thread, and I am sure it has been read by many on the SSG Team. A response, some indicator of hope for us, would be highly valued.

Thank you for your consideration of this matter, which is extremely important to many long-term LOTRO devotees.

I agree would be nice to hear something from the team on this, cause Hair styles 17-22 are not updated for female elves with the Avatar update, and cordovan said they are not further working on Elves when i asked on Live stream, i asked cause it needs fixing.

[Arabani]

I still do not like young chubby faces of the new women avatars. Things have settled down a bit, but I still ended up rerolling all my Human toons, exept my main Captain, to High Elves or hobbits. It would be realy nice if Devs added more mature faces in the future. I do not mind to buy them for LP either.

[Macdui]

From Oct 17 2017

Maybe if it was us determining how we look to others there'd have to be a server-side check and it'd take too long to be viable for the game, just be nice to get the dev's reasons.

Mac

And today is when they finally admit it. Not on the forums but on stream. And they are going to do more human and elf tweaks. Hope it includes the kiddy peado bait visuals and Kardashian wanna be super model elves.

Mac

[Freyda]

From Oct 17 2017



And today is when they finally admit it. Not on the forums but on stream. And they are going to do more human and elf tweaks. Hope it includes the kiddy peado bait visuals and Kardashian wanna be super model elves.

Mac

That's great news! I took a break from the game shortly after purchasing Mordor, hoping that when I returned there'd be some fixes implemented for the new models. I'd posted a couple of times at the start, and heard back from Cord on an occasion or two, but nothing much came of it. Heck, I'd have been happy with just face and head clipping issues being resolved with face masks and hoods!

I started playing again a couple of weeks ago, and felt dejected to see nothing much had changed in my time away. I'm going to remain positive and hope that these tweaks -might- stetch as far as bringing colour back to models, and maybe a more mature face or two. I'll watch the stream now and see if I can catch the mention you're referring to.

Edit: And within the first 10 minutes all hope had been restored. Clipping issues acknowledged and to be worked on, new faces being added, and current faces possibly getting a little more polish. Couldn't have asked for better news, really.

[Hurin]

P.S. The fact that a game client can only currently show one set or the other at any given time also might indicate that there is some technical limitation at play as well. So that just piling both "old" and "new" into the same selectable set, simultaneously visible within the client might not actually be possible. Consider that right now, when you are standing in a crowded space in Bree, it only has so many human (male and female) and Elf (male and female) faces to worry about and hold in memory at once. . . now imagine those doubling for each. Now consider the same for Hobbits and Dwarves when their time comes. It's not entirely clear that the client would be able to handle that. Which, more than design philosophy (having an "all in" option for new vs old for aeshetic reasons), might be the primary reason we have the design as it is. If true, that's again a reason why independent settings for each checkbox state is the only solution that will work short of scrapping the entire enterprise.

It's hard work being this right all the time.

According to Cordovan's recent live stream. . .





Would still love to see the ability to set avatar appearance independentally for each of the two possibles states of a player's "show old avatars" checkbox. So that those troubled by such things can at least choose their own best possible appearance in each of those two possible states. The additional faces being added (announced in the stream) might make this less of an issue. But there will still undoubtedly be some who like their appearance in the old tech while finding their (inexorably linked) appearance in the new tech abhorrent. Or vice-versa. Being able to set both a "my appearance in the new tech" and a "my appearance in the old tech" independently would --I would think-- satisfy the vast majority of those folks. All while avoiding the issue as described in the quote above (and essentially confirmed as an issue in the recent livestream).

But, of course, no solution is 100% perfect given tech and manpower limitations.

--H

[Palenen]

The avatar update seems to be a texture override as like when players mod their game to change aspects of the game but they can only see them. It might look better if the 3D character models weren't the issue. I wish they would replace the MAN model with the Beorning since they are both MAN!

[Kaeneth]

I've liked the new avatars myself, but I'm not at all opposed to further improvements or additional options.

Wish they'd tune up high elves more too while they're at it. I've never felt like they've really had enough face options, or especially long hair options on the males. Not to mention a few of the hairstyles still clip into the face, and/or appear to be on the verge of a receding hairline.

[Laerien]

The avatar update seems to be a texture override as like when players mod their game to change aspects of the game but they can only see them. It might look better if the 3D character models weren't the issue. I wish they would replace the MAN model with the Beorning since they are both MAN!

It's the opposite, the original model are working as a texture mod now. However, instead of loading only the original models when the option unchecked, the character selection screen, the character's and dressing room panels still load the new models first and then override the new models (not in the character and the dressing room panels)


It would be nice to know if that memory is freed when the original model are loaded.
--------

So this limitation is about the memory needed to have 2 sets of models... well, if that is the case, I understand the worryness. Nobody wants our super stable clients crashing due to the memory limit

[Silmelin]

And today is when they finally admit it. Not on the forums but on stream. And they are going to do more human and elf tweaks. Hope it includes the kiddy peado bait visuals and Kardashian wanna be super model elves.

Oh that is fantastic news! I'm beginning to feel hope again!

I started playing again a couple of weeks ago, and felt dejected to see nothing much had changed in my time away. I'm going to remain positive and hope that these tweaks -might- stetch as far as bringing colour back to models, and maybe a more mature face or two. I'll watch the stream now and see if I can catch the mention you're referring to.

Edit: And within the first 10 minutes all hope had been restored. Clipping issues acknowledged and to be worked on, new faces being added, and current faces possibly getting a little more polish. Couldn't have asked for better news, really.

I really really hope they're going to give back the healthy colours we used to have. At least for the male elves the skin of the face is now yellowy (even the eyes), and half the lips have had their colours completely removed so we actually have half as many mouths to pick between.

And please please please SSG, make male elf head #5 look pretty like it used to! There are plenty of people who don't like the "middle-aged manly man" style, so you'd get more people to play if you keep options for more than one single taste. As it is now that's the only type of man you can make in LOTRO, no matter which race you pick. Middle-aged manly man or old manly man. You can even make an elf that looks like a very old human and an old evil guy too, but you can't make a beautiful ageless elf with eyes filled with joy, so if you tweak Head #5 to give it back it's beautiful look, that would give people like me an option too!



More feedback for the future update below:

This is how the male elves look now (from left to right, top to bottom: Head #1-8)
It looks to me like they copied the shape of the old Head #1 and made it more manly (and made a better nose) and then copy/pasted it to all the other heads and made their chins bigger and bigger and more protruding. In most angles they look like they have an underbite due to their chin being so prominent.
And they all look almost the same and you need to have them stand next to each other to see that they look different, but for some of the heads they look the same anyway.
Another thing is that even the roundest of the old Heads now have sunken in cheeks. This adds to the middle-aged look. I have nothing against some heads having sunken in cheeks, some of them had that from the beginning as well, but the faces that are soft and ethereal looking in their original shape really should be allowed to keep that look.



If new faces are to be added, please please do it like this: Make new male elf heads that look more like the old ones (but better) and bind them to the old heads #1-8, and move the new heads we have now into new separate slots (#9+). Otherwise it will be problematic anyway since people are using different avatar settings.
The male elf Head #5 was the only "pretty" option we had, (and even so it was still possible to give it a more many look if combined with most of the mouth options), so if it stays connected to a really manly look and you add a new pretty face as an extra, that still won't help people who prefer the more beautiful look. It would mean that we would still not be able to look right in the eyes of everyone since we can't pick both new and old look for ourselves.

[EnelyaMorna]

It's definitely very welcome news that there's going to be more work done on this! I hope Silmelin's careful suggestions and explanations get taken into account by those working on it

[Arnenna]

It's definitely very welcome news that there's going to be more work done on this! I hope Silmelin's careful suggestions and explanations get taken into account by those working on it

Seconded. Also, female elf to run like a female elf again please if possible.

[Pontin_Finnberry]

I'm glad they are going to do more work on the Elf/Human Avatar can't wait to see what other changes they will make... glad they listening to player feedback.

[Fulgurix]

Nice to hear you guys are working on improving models again. Please consider adding back the human female idle pose from the Mordor Beta, even as an option to the current one if possible.

[Silmelin]

I'm very happy that they will be continuing the work on Elves and Men! Looking forward to seeing it all on Bullroarer in the future I wonder if they will work on them while they work on Hobbits and Dwarves, or if it will be afterwards? Has anything been said about it?


SSG, I really really appreciate you continuing the work on the Elf/Man races! It's been heartbreaking to see my character turn into the opposite of what I had, and to see my friends sad, but it makes me very happy to have our feedback listened to and I have high hopes for the future again Thank you!

The characters of a game is a very very important thing, not only for the old players who understandably want to keep the heart of their character but also for new players. Since there are so many different people with different likes and dislikes, it will never be a waste of time and work to make sure there are as many variations as possible It's good to have something for everyone!

[scorrp10]

Oh my. I gotta say I actually liked the new look of my female Elf main. Hope they don't ruin it. My Woman Hunter definitely a bit on the chubby side, but you know, gotta watch your lembas intake...

[EnelyaMorna]

I'm very happy that they will be continuing the work on Elves and Men! Looking forward to seeing it all on Bullroarer in the future I wonder if they will work on them while they work on Hobbits and Dwarves, or if it will be afterwards? Has anything been said about it?

Cord actually said on the stream tonight that they will be working on the Elves and Men before they release the new Hobbits and Dwarves!

Seconded. Also, female elf to run like a female elf again please if possible.

Yes to the run animation too - I think I figured out that it's the set of the arms and shoulders that doesn't look so good to me now.

[Silmelin]

Cord actually said on the stream tonight that they will be working on the Elves and Men before they release the new Hobbits and Dwarves!

Oh that is fantastic news! Really great! Thank you very much for passing along the info!

[NeoBasilisk]

After 30 pages, I'm glad we have the final verdict on new avatars.

[Macdui]

After 30 pages, I'm glad we have the final verdict on new avatars.

Hardly touched the surface...

[Freyda]

For those interested in seeing the new avatar tweaks, as well as the new face additions, I highly recommend logging in to Bullroarer and taking a look.

- Human females have had the colour restored around their eyes, while keeping the current more neutral shades selectable as well.

- Elf females have more colour to their lips, again with the more neutral shades still selectable.

- Human males seem to be lacking colour still.

- Elf males still lack colour options for around their eyes.

- The new faces more closely ressemble our older models. It's as close as it can come to having both old and new models viewable at the same time.

- The head count currently stands at Human females: 18, Human males: 22, Elf females: 20, Elf males: 16.

- Since the Elf male head 5 was of particular interest, I snapped a screenshot. To my eye it certainly seems softened, but there are also the newly added faces that more closely ressemble what used to be available, to choose from.

[Laerien]

That is a huge improvement, thanks for the picture.