Only 2 instances ?!

[Rialtan]

I tried the 3-man and now i can tell that the new instance cluster actually contains only ONE instance cause i wont call Seregost an instance.

[Denhith]

The bottom line here is that SSG/LotRO is not a AAA MMORPG, to be honest it hasn't been for some time.
Proof can be found in what other MMOs are providing with their expansions at launch (in just terms of group content alone)...

FFXIV: Stormblood Base price: $35.00

Five 4-man leveling dungeons
Three 4-man level cap dungeons
Three primal battles (8-man content)

two weeks after launch (on schedule as promised), Four 8-man raids in normal + savage mode

So essentially, FFXIV provides more content with an initial expansion launch than LotRO can over 2 years.
It is indeed time to temper expectations.

[Vilan]

3-man instances seems so very...archaic and limited. I guess for SSG, it's easy to develop and test/balance (assuming any of that actually occurs), because it deals with only 3 players (normally healer/tank/dps combination) but I would prefer they released at least 2 6-man fellowship instances with the raid to follow in a couple weeks after.

I usually find 3-mans more interesting than 6-mans. A 6-man is pretty much always tank, heals, support, 3 dps. A 3-man has to have at least one of those categories missing so people get pushed to contribute in different ways. Maybe the mini has to chip in with dps since you don't have a "real" dps class with you. Maybe the champ has to tank since you don't have a "real" tank. 6-mans, people have better defined roles but it's less fluid as a result. My 2 cents.

[epargPZ]

To be honest, six-man and raid instances seem archaic and limited as well.

That's from the perspective of someone who played MMORPGs before there were raids or instances, through their introduction, and through the time when raids had 60+ people.

In any event, they're resource intensive, and the most resource intensive forms see the most limited use. Couple that with restricted resources, and it is fortunate to be seeing even the limited cluster we are getting.

Six mans and raids are archaic/limited? Completely disagree. Three mans are limited and can never be difficult without excluding classes that aren't top tier in their role. Six mans and raids are the heart of a PvE focused MMO.

Instances and raids see the most limited use? Again completely disagree. No one keeps logging in to kill faceroll landscape that doesn't have any mechanics. People will continue to login to complete challenging instances/raids with appropriate rewards.

It's not fortunate to get 1.5 instances - It's outrageous.

[Forodir]

I usually find 3-mans more interesting than 6-mans. A 6-man is pretty much always tank, heals, support, 3 dps. A 3-man has to have at least one of those categories missing so people get pushed to contribute in different ways. Maybe the mini has to chip in with dps since you don't have a "real" dps class with you. Maybe the champ has to tank since you don't have a "real" tank. 6-mans, people have better defined roles but it's less fluid as a result. My 2 cents.

Then there is a flip side. In 3-man it is sometimes hard find a role for certain classes. I'm a bit afraid of upcoming instances, since LM has been stripped from any meaningful healing or DPS contribution so then there is only support duties left. Not all instances benefit having one slot purely for support and nothing else.

[Scirocco]

Six mans and raids are archaic/limited? Completely disagree. Three mans are limited and can never be difficult without excluding classes that aren't top tier in their role. Six mans and raids are the heart of a PvE focused MMO.

Instances and raids see the most limited use? Again completely disagree. No one keeps logging in to kill faceroll landscape that doesn't have any mechanics. People will continue to login to complete challenging instances/raids with appropriate rewards.

It's not fortunate to get 1.5 instances - It's outrageous.

It may be a difference in perspetive. I've been playing MMORPGs for 20 years, so obviously I don't see instances and raids as the "heart" of such games because I remember when they didn't exist. If all you've known are MMORPGs with raiding instances, it is natural to think they are necessary. There can be important elements, I'll grant you, but hardly the "heart."

I'm happy to continue a discussion of their origin, merits, and effects on the genre, but it would help to understand your perspective. When did you start playing any MMORPG, and what MMORPGs have you played?

[Vilan]

Then there is a flip side. In 3-man it is sometimes hard find a role for certain classes. I'm a bit afraid of upcoming instances, since LM has been stripped from any meaningful healing or DPS contribution so then there is only support duties left. Not all instances benefit having one slot purely for support and nothing else.

My main is an LM and I still prefer 3-mans. Our DPS is far from meaningless. Maybe not top tier but red line has many AoE damage choices. And Fire Lore is a very useful "healing" skill.

[Arnenna]

The point that everyone here is making, which you're discounting by saying "oh but you're forgetting about the raid," is that every other instance cluster we've gotten for the past three years has had two three-man instances and one six man, and THEN the raid. So nobody's even bringing up the raid, because it's not part of this discussion. We're getting fewer instances total, down from three to two, or four to three, if you're counting the raid, than we did with updates that we paid much less for. We're mildly ticked off that we're getting one fewer instance for $40 than Pelennor, which sold for what, $20?

My big issue with this is that when you only get three things to repeat for three or so months, cutting out even one of them is a huge hit to being able to lessen the grind by doing different stuff. Not to mention, three mans are notoriously finicky in terms of class makeup, especially now that half of our classes are experiencing issues with viability in certain situations. Having two generally means that if your class functions below par in one, they have the option of doing the other because of variant in design. This cuts that out, and it seems pretty likely that a lot of classes will actually only have one instance to run rather than two.

I'm not actually discounting anything. As I already said, this instance update is just below par of Pellenor regarding numbers. Osgiliath didn't have any raid, so if we're talking the last three years, then that update is lesser when it comes to instances/raids, lacking the 12 man. Sure, they were only updates, and not expacs, and so were a lot cheaper to buy, but they didn't come with any of the new dynamics and changes that Mordor has brought, especially on landscape, nor did they come with 6 crafting instances and various other interesting content. They were faceroll landscape for miles on end with small interesting clusters and that's it.

Yes, it would be great if there could be more than one 3 man to choose from, but things have significantly changed since Mordor hit. We get a lot less of everything in our package now, especially the base pack, so is it any surprise to anyone that this is any different? It's not to me.

I get the concern about some classes being preferable to others for runs, trust me on that, my main is a hunter, so I've experienced the pointy end of that over a long long period, but did having 2 x 3 mans in Pellenor alleviate it in any way? No, it didn't. When a certain class is preferred over another, having more three mans doesn't mean the lesser class gets to go, it just means the better class gets to go more. Also the lesser class doesn't automatically fit the bill if its a 6 man, if there are plenty of the better class around instead. What you're talking about here is down to class balance and player choices. It's nothing to do with how many instances are or are not available.

[Dagobert]

It may be a difference in perspetive. I've been playing MMORPGs for 20 years, so obviously I don't see instances and raids as the "heart" of such games because I remember when they didn't exist. If all you've known are MMORPGs with raiding instances, it is natural to think they are necessary. There can be important elements, I'll grant you, but hardly the "heart."

I'm happy to continue a discussion of their origin, merits, and effects on the genre, but it would help to understand your perspective. When did you start playing any MMORPG, and what MMORPGs have you played?

I'd have to disagree with you as well, but I am end game player. Most players in my kin power through landscape content and really play the game for challenging instances, and I have to say that I am concerned that there isn't a proper cluster of these being released.

FFXIV released its x-pac with 9 instance (5 levelling 4 max level) and 4 raids. I have never seen WOW to launch without at least 6 or more heroic instance and usually patch in about three to four raids over the course of an xapc. So yeah SSG need to be careful and create more instance if they want high player retention numbers. Instances keep you playing, especially with RNG and different levels of difficulty, landscape you can power through quickly. There is a player in our kin who can do every quest required in Mordor to open dailys in just one day.

[Forodir]

My main is an LM and I still prefer 3-mans. Our DPS is far from meaningless. Maybe not top tier but red line has many AoE damage choices. And Fire Lore is a very useful "healing" skill.

Are you referring to the DPS level before or after Mordor? There was a major nerf for both healing and DPS. I haven't run red line recently due AoE skills causing so much lag in group content (both LS and RoF).

[JERH]

My main is an LM and I still prefer 3-mans. Our DPS is far from meaningless. Maybe not top tier but red line has many AoE damage choices. And Fire Lore is a very useful "healing" skill.

Well I for one am looking forward to seeing if my blue LM with the 320K level 119 pet can do the 3 man instance solo. I ran red for many levels but went to blue very soon after entering mordor. The 70-90% BPE/resists on mobs trying to attack the pet under the new mordor combat scheme are way too nice. Pet also crits 70-80% of the time. The +4 level pet takes less damage from attacks far better than a tank and has 3x the hp. If I manage aggro then I have easily taken down a group of 3 elites and 5 normals without the pet dying once due to fire-lore and managed aggro (ok, close with that many). So, I spec blue deep into red to get Lightning strike though I have to be very careful using it due to aggro limitations. Also, it really doesn't seem to do that much damage. Slow DPS but the massive tank is hugely survivable. Maybe the LM can be tank and support as 1 char in the instances.

[Scirocco]

I'd have to disagree with you as well, but I am end game player. Most players in my kin power through landscape content and really play the game for challenging instances, and I have to say that I am concerned that there isn't a proper cluster of these being released.

FFXIV released its x-pac with 9 instance (5 levelling 4 max level) and 4 raids. I have never seen WOW to launch without at least 6 or more heroic instance and usually patch in about three to four raids over the course of an xapc. So yeah SSG need to be careful and create more instance if they want high player retention numbers. Instances keep you playing, especially with RNG and different levels of difficulty, landscape you can power through quickly. There is a player in our kin who can do every quest required in Mordor to open dailys in just one day.

Don't mistake this for a casual vs raider issue. I am anything but a casual player. Seven years raiding in EQ, five in WoW, with various shorter periods in UO, DAoC, and others along the way. I even do group instances and raids with my kin mates in LOTRO (same kin for over 10 years), although I do that for pure fun. I only let my hardcore powergaming minmaxing self out for solo grinding and individual gameplay where I am truly seeking to challenge myself. "Endgame" includes, but is not limited to, raiding and group instances.

So been there, got the phat lewt T-shirt. And from my end-gamer perspective, yes, 6 person instances and small-scale raiding (all LOTRO raids are small scale) are getting antiquated. Overly structured and choreographed. Participants are members of a dance ensemble, trying to repeat the steps learned by rote.

The raid experiences I remember best are the ones that went catastrophically off-the-rails, with those still living scrambling to pull out a win in the face of a two-hour corpse recovery on failure. That's when the individual challenge and difficulty approaches the same level when I push my upper limit while solo.

[Vilan]

Are you referring to the DPS level before or after Mordor? There was a major nerf for both healing and DPS. I haven't run red line recently due AoE skills causing so much lag in group content (both LS and RoF).

Before. I'm not sure yet if there's going to be a balance pass before the new instances come out... looking like not... so, fair enough, things may well be different in the new instances. But 3-mans tend to be forgiving enough to allow sub-optimal class mixes. Just have to wait and see what line I'll be using in the new ones.

[Scirocco]

Well I for one am looking forward to seeing if my blue LM with the 320K level 119 pet can do the 3 man instance solo. I ran red for many levels but went to blue very soon after entering mordor. The 70-90% BPE/resists on mobs trying to attack the pet under the new mordor combat scheme are way too nice. Pet also crits 70-80% of the time. The +4 level pet takes less damage from attacks far better than a tank and has 3x the hp. If I manage aggro then I have easily taken down a group of 3 elites and 5 normals without the pet dying once due to fire-lore and managed aggro (ok, close with that many). So, I spec blue deep into red to get Lightning strike though I have to be very careful using it due to aggro limitations. Also, it really doesn't seem to do that much damage. Slow DPS but the massive tank is hugely survivable. Maybe the LM can be tank and support as 1 char in the instances.

Good points. Always glad to see another LM think of 3-mans as challenging solo content.

I'm still sticking with red with deep blue, although the bear tank has definitely become more important in Mordor. Your experience with LS doing less damage is not unusual...I am seeing the same across the board. LM tactical damage has definitely not kept up.

I may have to give your blue/red approach a try.

[MComstock]

2 instances now and 1 raid later does seem like, in terms of dungeon/group content, we are not getting as much bang for our buck as we used to. I suppose I will hold out hope that we get the 2 instances now, the 1 promised raid later, and that we get additional (3+) Mordor instances with future updates within the year following Mordor release. I would be happy with another two 3-man and one 6-man instance "cluster," released after the raid.

I confess, I splurged for the "ultimate" fan package, but less for the cosmetics, mounts, kites, and titles, and more for the financial support of SSG to keep new engaging content coming. I also splurged for an additional year long subscription. I even splurged for a healthy amount of LP, also under the financial support theory. Yes... much splurging. Call me a fool for spending the $$ on it, but hopefully enough of us fools are out there to get us a few more instances.

[Phantion]

This is my largest concern with us adventuring into Mordor post-Ring destruction. Since launch we have had the evil of Sauron hanging over us and it gave the feeling that, while we defeated some baddies along the way, there was always that bigger evil floating just out of reach.

Now, I worry that without that big evil, the game feels less heroic. Sure - we will defeat some bad things - but aren't they mostly minions to the big bad that is gone (kind of like Sauron was a LT to Morgoth....for those lore-centered).

Fingers crossed SSG has a plan to keep the game feeling exciting, and not make us feel like we are on mop-up duty. This could be an opportunity if they can get it right.

Yeah, and since Morgoth is "Silmarillion" material, the "Big Bad" is pretty much gone all around. You bring up an interesting point though. Sauron was LT to Morgoth.

I don't think its all bad. I feel like, for example, stopping the Second Great Plague was a good way of building-up some suspense- making Lhaereth into a Big Bad figure. Unfortunately, since that's the 3-man, its feeling... less so. That should have been the raid, in my opinion- Seregost. Anyways... The idea of someone else trying to become "The Big Bad," even if we know that, in the end, its going to fail- that has potential to keep the game running. But yeah, this is why I suspect we're not fighting -all- of Mordor's "bigger bad's" just yet. Borangos, for example, is pretty scary- they could do some intriguing things with him. Shelob is another. But they have to keep their "enemy players" in play in order to keep the story interesting.

So, for example, if there wasn't a Sauron- we would've needed to have had a harder time dealing with Mazog and/or Gorothul- and we might well have had to chase Gorothul all the way to Rhun. Instead, since they were "footnotes" on the journey- they could be killed-off. This time round, its more tricky, exactly because they need to -invent- more story reasons to fill-out the world more- and having to chase-down baddies is a classic way to keep the game engaging.

Amarthiel was like this- and Mordrambor- and all the chasing-around Eriador that we had to do in that Epic Volume I of old- giving us reasons to go to Angmar and to Forochel and to Evendim and Tal Bruinen among other places. They'll probably need to do something similar with at least -some- of these Mordor bosses- to give us "reasons" to, say, go into Nurn or Harad, etc. etc. etc.

Even so, I still agree with most that's been said in this thread- they needed to at least make-up some Uruk generals or maybe some Rogmul lieutenants or something with boss mechanics and crank-out some more instances to round-out the "cluster."

[Pontin_Finnberry]

Better then no instance I'm just glad we got 2 and a raid coming later

[Daaehl]

Better then no instance I'm just glad we got 2 and a raid coming later

don't just settle for sub par game development we're getting at the moment. People have paid good money for this expansion, yet we are seemingly getting less than we normally would with normal updates / previous expansions, what gives @SSG?

[Pontin_Finnberry]

don't just settle for sub par game development we're getting at the moment. People have paid good money for this expansion, yet we are seemingly getting less than we normally would with normal updates / previous expansions, what gives @SSG?

do you mean just the Instances? cause in Mordor we a lot to do in it for daily stuff and such way more then Helm's Deep.

[Daaehl]

do you mean just the Instances? cause in Mordor we a lot to do in it for daily stuff and such way more then Helm's Deep.

Yes, I mean instances, that is what this thread is about after all. I was referring to how we have never seen an instance cluster this small in a normal update let alone in an expansion.

I can't deny there is a lot to do in terms of dailies: we seem to have 6 daily instances as well as a lot of daily quests for each region - not everyone enjoys that kind of content though. I find dailies mind-numbingly boring - they aren't difficult and they give small rewards - in the current case keys which let you roll the dice for the chance to possibly get something useful, but we all know full well the majority of the time you are gonna get 20 ash, a green essence and some crafting ingredients, not a fulfilling use of my time! (going off topic, sorry)

As for Helm's Deep, when Big battles were released that came with 5 sort-of instances (with some having different versions for different size groups) - they were poorly received, yes. However, they still represent a lot more content and general effort from the developers than the 2 instances and 1 raid we are going to get.

I just don't understand how 2 months of content development (or what will be 2 months of work by the time this lot goes live) will only have led to 2 instances, that's just pathetic in my eyes. We are getting some really nice QoL features with the filtering and stuff, but I just don't understand why that's a priority at this stage in the game's life. These instances are the only content we're going to be getting till the raid, it is just not enough to keep me, and I'm sure many others who don't enjoy doing the same easy dailies over and over again entertained till the raid is here, which will take what, another month at least, more likely 2 months?

The way SSG treats their Group content / raiding community frustrates me to the point of anger . Maybe its time to just stop caring... In my eyes SSG is only showing any kind of effort when it comes to providing content for people doing dailies (solo content). Ah well, the past has shown that solo content without sufficient group content only leads to a declining player base and server merges...

[Andhfara]

To be honest i can agree to what many people said here.
It is disapointing me a lot that we gonna get only two instances, that instance - 'cluster' is really small for an expansion.
Level 105 was 'just' a questpack and included 3 instances + the raid.
Also the fact that some people paid quiet some money on the expansion does not make it any better. I am one of those who got the ultimate - bundle. Ok i admit nobody forced me to do it. But I actually had big hope in Mordor. Also since the questing through the areas was quiet nice and some strongholds and regions were quiet challenging expecially when you did them alone.
But the stuff to do after those quests is not satisfying at all. Daylies daylies and daylies. Well yes instances are coming out now but as stated before i think 2 instances is a bit few for a region like this .
Personally i am disapointed, also about the fact that i have to get my low expectations even lower, sad.

[LethalLethality]

do you mean just the Instances? cause in Mordor we a lot to do in it for daily stuff and such way more then Helm's Deep.

To be honest, dailies in Mordor are more boring than Hytbold.

[He11ion]

Albeit I remain unimpressed with Lotro customer service at the moment and setting that a side… my views on the Mordor expansion, being just that, my opinion and nothing more is that a lot of work has obviously gone into the new area, with more thought perhaps than other expansions and on that I would say well done!!! As to the three different bundled expansions available, well that is always a matter of choice.

Two instances with a future raid on the horizon, I will reserve my judgement on this until I experience the quality for myself. I am more than happy with a quality three and six man instance; it gives opportunity to those who prefer to avoid the politics (putting it as diplomatically as I can) that have been known to occur in some larger raids. I can understand some of the points put forward, but overall think the purchase of Mordor was money well spent, with a new character to learn and work on while awaiting the instances and future raid, included with all expansion packages.

Cheers

[Rialtan]

Albeit I remain unimpressed with Lotro customer service at the moment and setting that a side… my views on the Mordor expansion, being just that, my opinion and nothing more is that a lot of work has obviously gone into the new area, with more thought perhaps than other expansions and on that I would say well done!!! As to the three different bundled expansions available, well that is always a matter of choice.

Two instances with a future raid on the horizon, I will reserve my judgement on this until I experience the quality for myself. I am more than happy with a quality three and six man instance; it gives opportunity to those who prefer to avoid the politics (putting it as diplomatically as I can) that have been known to occur in some larger raids. I can understand some of the points put forward, but overall think the purchase of Mordor was money well spent, with a new character to learn and work on while awaiting the instances and future raid, included with all expansion packages.

Cheers

I can understand your point but mine is:

As raider i dont think this "cluster" could keep hardcore/raid players busy for 3 months till the release of the new 12man. It's clear that they trying to keep in the game the "casuals" (not in offensive way obv).
The flowers update was the proof and all that came after it just confirm that.

As i said, landscape is great...quests are good but they did a cheap job on gear and instances (for what i saw in the beta)

[He11ion]

I can understand your point but mine is:

As raider i dont think this "cluster" could keep hardcore/raid players busy for 3 months till the release of the new 12man. It's clear that they trying to keep in the game the "casuals" (not in offensive way obv).
The flowers update was the proof and all that came after it just confirm that.

As i said, landscape is great...quests are good but they did a cheap job on gear and instances (for what i saw in the beta)

I can see what you are saying, I like to raid, I like a challenge that needs to be overcome by a team, especially meeting new people and enjoying friends in the process. Never before in Lotro had I witnessed the negativity of certain individuals that left many disillusioned as I did in the last 12 man raid. That may have been limited to the server I play on, I can’t speak to that. But certainly it made me lean more so to a challenging three or six man.

As to the cosmetics, yes, definitely in agreement, although they looked great in the preview, the reality was I was very underwhelmed by them.

As to casual players who are in the vast majority, they probably enjoyed the endless flower picking no more than did the hard core raiders, it was awful wasn’t it .

Happy gaming Rialtan .../bow