Update 21.2, really SSG!?!?

[Denhith]

In the spirit of self-realization...

I play STO sporadically and loot-boxes are all over the place. I don't mind them there, and it's probably because I don't take that game too seriously. Also, STO has shamelessly had loot-boxes in the game for years and there is a certain level of integrity in not trying to hide or explain away your motives behind certain development decisions.

Which brings me to LotRO...do I really care? Not really. I stopped playing through Mordor around the time I started helping a certain goblin (ugh.) So while I find the loot-box fiasco distasteful (mostly because it is a complete 180 by the exec producer from his comments not too long ago), I have no dog in the fight. LotRO produces end-game group content so infrequently and they seem so incompetent with designing a consistent loot system--there is nothing really holding me to the game anymore. In a nutshell, I'm here just to complain about a game I once used to love. And while I believe my criticisms (and others) are valid...at some point you have to realize you are just spinning your wheels.

In a perfect world, LotRO would be sub only and the only items in the cash shop would be emotes, mounts, cosmetics and housing items. In a perfect world, that would be enough revenue for the dev team to create content with a bit of integrity instead of linking large chunks of content to the store (ugh). But that's not the world we live in and this is not that game.

[Arnenna]

So it's concluded then and the answer has arrived.

Like I said all along, it's no surprise to me that the lootbox loot will stay. The only surprise to me is how it surprises anyone else.

It began with solvents, it was enhanced by making various items in store tradeable (so those who didn't want to spend money themselves could get other players to spend money for them by paying them huge amounts of gold), the notion that players would actually buy their BiS gear was introduced by players (raid loot selling), it was tested by adding high end shoulders and rings into new boxes with new keys, and now it's being expanded. Only one conclusion to draw - enough people bought it. The only missing cog at the moment is the limited avenue to generate high amounts of gold, but, I guess that's on its way.

Game has lost the plot.

[Milii]

You know, if this thread was about Key Drops I would support it.

However some people have long term bad luck with RNG, like spending a year of every single dragon raid to get the Dragon Books for Epic 1.0 and ending up getting them because all other other Pallies conceded their rolls because said Pally had more than earned the Epic. I understand casual raiding because I understand Power Raiding bad luck like no other on any game ever. Would I have paid RL $ for the dragon books? No. But would I pay RL $ for Last Piece of Plane Gear that was not a BP? Most likely if I was hunting it for a few months and not getting it because it would mean others were not getting it either and my not having it made it harder for others to get it in game on a roll.

Thing is, proper guildies and friends will always go on raids with their buddies even if there is nothing for them on said raid. Which means if they get what they want out of said raid with RL $ then that means that said drop will go to someone else instead, which helps others with less RL $, not hurts them. And what of those who are not friendly enough to help Kin-mates and 'friends'? Well in that case what gear they have or do not have really does not effect you, does it? Well, maybe it helps on a PUG, but in no way does it do any harm what so ever, unless you are farming and selling rare gear on the AH.

[ElanorFb]

The battle between the "casuals" and the "hard core raiders" will never end. The game swings back and forth between the two. It's been swinging in favor of hard core for a while now so I'm not surprised to see it swing back.

In this case I'm sure it will be quite costly to "pay to win."

For me I fell completely off the track with Mordor and doubt I'll get back on. I'll play until the end but now let's say "Very Casually."

[ENDrain]

OH
MY
GOD

I had bad feelings about Daybreak former SOE becoming the publisher, but~
I don‘t mind LotRO dying, it‘s inevitable, but not in such shame.

It‘s time we started working on a server emulator, guys.

[Rialtan]

The battle between the "casuals" and the "hard core raiders" will never end. The game swings back and forth between the two. It's been swinging in favor of hard core for a while now so I'm not surprised to see it swing back.

In this case I'm sure it will be quite costly to "pay to win."

For me I fell completely off the track with Mordor and doubt I'll get back on. I'll play until the end but now let's say "Very Casually."

It isnt a battle between casul and hardcore players.

That's the mistake some ppl do.

To keep the game healthy you have to fight against those p2w features. It's simple.

[He11ion]

So it's concluded then and the answer has arrived.

Like I said all along, it's no surprise to me that the lootbox loot will stay. The only surprise to me is how it surprises anyone else.

It began with solvents, it was enhanced by making various items in store tradeable (so those who didn't want to spend money themselves could get other players to spend money for them by paying them huge amounts of gold), the notion that players would actually buy their BiS gear was introduced by players (raid loot selling), it was tested by adding high end shoulders and rings into new boxes with new keys, and now it's being expanded. Only one conclusion to draw - enough people bought it. The only missing cog at the moment is the limited avenue to generate high amounts of gold, but, I guess that's on its way.

Game has lost the plot.

Well said Arnenna! The times are definitely changing.

[Hetweith]

It isnt a battle between casul and hardcore players.

That's the mistake some ppl do.

To keep the game healthy you have to fight against those p2w features. It's simple.

how are you going to fight it? seriously this game has shed the majority of it's player base and that hasn't put a stop to the direction the dev team keeps taking this game.
if p2w keeps ppl at SSG employed then thats what they are going to do.
forum threads arent going to change this, they never have. the only options you have are to play this game, or not...thats it.

[Draugris]

how are you going to fight it? seriously this game has shed the majority of it's player base and that hasn't put a stop to the direction the dev team keeps taking this game.
if p2w keeps ppl at SSG employed then thats what they are going to do.
forum threads arent going to change this, they never have. the only options you have are to play this game, or not...thats it.

Well first and foremost it is up to the players decision to spend money on keys or not. So the first step to take action against SSG´s greed is to stop spending money. Vote with your wallet, you don´t have to stop playing the game.

[Denhith]

People may dread hearing the whole F2P versus sub only model argument (yet again), but it is directly related to what we are seeing now in LotRO. This article is from 2013, but I feel it holds true today (if not more so): https://venturebeat.com/2013/06/17/f...lay-exclusive/

TL; DR, the pitfalls he mentions of the F2P model we are seeing (have seen) bright as day in LotRO.

[yafga]

Massivelyop has written an article about this : http://massivelyop.com/2017/10/06/st...lootbox-plans/

[yafga]

[siipperi]

Massivelyop has written an article about this : http://massivelyop.com/2017/10/06/st...lootbox-plans/

Comment section is quite telling. LMAO.

[Maximilan]

Massivelyop has written an article about this : http://massivelyop.com/2017/10/06/st...lootbox-plans/

Yeah and the comments mirror what is being said here. I think the post below is a fairly accurate 'history' of where we we've been and where we are going. Next stop is maintenance mode when the lights get dim! I hope this doesn't happen and Lotro keeps running for another few years, those 'whales' better get busy and buy some more keys so I can keep playing!

Also if this thread is about casuals versus hardcore elitists then I guess I'm on the wrong side! I'm a very casual player and I agree with the hardcore players as a matter of principle - you should be rewarded for doing the 'hardcore' stuff like the T2c instances/raids. Even if I will likely never do them, it's wrong to put the BiS in lootboxes without equal or better gear in the instance/raid. That's why I found the executive producer's statement of a couple days ago so disingenuous.


Posted by Alatar

??
"If they could’ve survived as a subscription only game, they would have.

If they could’ve survived as a hybrid free/sub game with a cash shop that sold only cosmetic items, they would have.

They can’t. So this is how they get what they need to keep the lights on. The next step is maintenance mode and then the doors close.

I don’t mind the whales and the gear in the cash shop because I’d like the game to stay open."

[yafga]

Yeah and the comments mirror what is being said here. I think the post below is a fairly accurate 'history' of where we we've been and where we are going. Next stop is maintenance mode when the lights get dim! I hope this doesn't happen and Lotro keeps running for another few years, those 'whales' better get busy and buy some more keys so I can keep playing!

Also if this thread is about casuals versus hardcore elitists then I guess I'm on the wrong side! I'm a very casual player and I agree with the hardcore players as a matter of principle - you should be rewarded for doing the 'hardcore' stuff like the T2c instances/raids. Even if I will likely never do them, it's wrong to put the BiS in lootboxes without equal or better gear in the instance/raid. That's why I found the executive producer's statement of a couple days ago so disingenuous.


Posted by Alatar

??
"If they could’ve survived as a subscription only game, they would have.

If they could’ve survived as a hybrid free/sub game with a cash shop that sold only cosmetic items, they would have.

They can’t. So this is how they get what they need to keep the lights on. The next step is maintenance mode and then the doors close.

I don’t mind the whales and the gear in the cash shop because I’d like the game to stay open."

If selling BIS gear is the only way they can survive, why not just close the game right now then...

This is so sad..

[BangoTwinkletoes]

If selling BIS gear is the only way they can survive, why not just close the game right now then...

This is so sad..

I'm sure the devs would rather they didn't lose their jobs because you would rather the game was turned off.

However it will be interesting to see what ends up as the straw that broke the camels back and forces SSG to switch to new lines of revenue generation rather than lockboxes.

[yafga]

I'm sure the devs would rather they didn't lose their jobs because you would rather the game was turned off.

However it will be interesting to see what ends up as the straw that broke the camels back and forces SSG to switch to new lines of revenue generation rather than lockboxes.

Yeah, but maybe they will end up losing their jobs because they turn the game 99% pw2. Yeah it will be very interesting to see how this goes. I really hope people refuse to spend money on lockboxes.

[Forodir]

I really hate how this F2P scheme removes the quality aspect from the game. Nowadays it's just about creating new purchasable content as fast as possible and getting the money out of it. Once an expansion has been released with the minimum quality they move to a new purchasable content without never fixing the issues they left behind since that wont bring any new money in. Pushing players toward the store is also a big focus and part of the game design philosophy (lack of universal solvents, keys etc.) which again removes some enjoyment from the game.

With subscription model this money grappling scheme would be on a back seat and the focus of developers would be to create a high quality game with good evolving content and maintain it properly so that people would keep subscribing it.

[Hetweith]

Well first and foremost it is up to the players decision to spend money on keys or not. So the first step to take action against SSG´s greed is to stop spending money. Vote with your wallet, you don´t have to stop playing the game.

everyone is free do do as they wish. my point is dont expect it to make a difference in what the dev's do with the store. if you are, you are just fooling yourself.

[Cambruyn]

Had the game been good enough it would have made money and enough of it. When they launched competition was sparse, the biggest competitor being WoW and what? Lineage? GW? WoW managed to keep their playerbase, GW and Lineage created sequals. Rift launched, FF:XIV, ... Those developers adapted. One can argue about the quality of each and every one of those, but the sad reality remains that LotRO just has a track record of failed and flawed mechanics. They had a good vanilla game, a decent first mini-expansion, a good real expansion and everything since? Isengard was thin on content and what little it offered was bugged 75% of the time, Rohan was... well, mounted combat, then came Helm's Deep with what is most probably the worst mechanic currently in the game and now Mordor.

It's a piss-poor product which survives on the nostalgia of it's 'old' players alone. They can't draw new people in. How can they compete with the likes of FFXIV, ESO, WoW, Black Desert, and so on and so on? They can't, so they milk whatever is left for whatever it's worth. Up untill some time ago one could argue that at least there was some sort of respect for the product and it's community, but it's quite apparent even that has now been put aside.

$$$ £££ and €€€, as much of it for the littlest amount of effort and all of that yesterday please. Not today, not tomorrow, yesterday.

[Denhith]

With subscription model this money grappling scheme would be on a back seat and the focus of developers would be to create a high quality game with good evolving content and maintain it properly so that people would keep subscribing it.

Agreed, this is pretty evident with titles like WoW and FFXIV. Yes, they have the backing of a popular IP (so does SSG for the record), but if the consistent, quality content (and management) wasn't there, they wouldn't be the #1 and #2 MMORPG out there today.

Had the game been good enough it would have made money and enough of it...

There are those that argue that LotRO went F2P when it did because it had to. I would disagree. The powers-that-be saw an opportunity to perhaps make more money (in bursts) by going F2P and the majority of development decision since then have been based on those short term targets. As a result, the game has been horribly optimized, systems have been introduced and then ignored, marketing for the game has taken a back seat to letting the community do most of the work for them, and the list goes on and on...

[Nosdracir]

There are those that argue that LotRO went F2P when it did because it had to. I would disagree. The powers-that-be saw an opportunity to perhaps make more money (in bursts) by going F2P and the majority of development decision since then have been based on those short term targets. As a result, the game has been horribly optimized, systems have been introduced and then ignored, marketing for the game has taken a back seat to letting the community do most of the work for them, and the list goes on and on...

Turbine's owners and investors wanted to sell Turbine and get their money out of it. Turbine took DDO F2P and saw a huge short term rise in revenue, so they did the same with LOTRO and got the same result. Then they sold to Warner Brothers and left with their money. A huge amount of the DDO and especially LOTRO revenue was allocated to projects that failed, like LOTRO in China, a console version of LOTRO (no, I'm not kidding!), and finally the IC moba. This was all confirmed by a Turbine QA guy posting on the other forum.

Stripped of their revenue and with a lot of staff laid off, the LOTRO team had to develop content on a shoestring. (That's why I call the current developer Shoe String Games.) I think they do a great job with the resources they have.

[Denhith]

A huge amount of the DDO and especially LOTRO revenue was allocated to projects that failed, like LOTRO in China, a console version of LOTRO (no, I'm not kidding!), and finally the IC moba.

I think they do a great job with the resources they have.

As I said...consistent, quality management. Leadership has changed hands far too many times with this game.

We'll just have to a agree to disagree on the last sentence

[Cirethnyl]

Up untill some time ago one could argue that at least there was some sort of respect for the product and it's community, but it's quite apparent even that has now been put aside.

This is exactly what I've been thinking and feeling as well. So sad. I used to adore this game, I used to literally live in it, I used to support it financially as much as I could, despite seeing its many fails and flaws... Not anymore. Enough is enough.

[Rialtan]

I bet all the ppl who defend that p2w mechanic will complain anyway in case of a mandatory subscription. Cause they really dont care to "support devs" as they like to say to justify their position (rotfl) They simply want easy game. They want to kill progression on a game genre that fund its longevity on progression.

They try to justify their position saying they deserve gear aswell and raiders are leechers. (why? i bought exp and pay sub aswell)

They spent 50/100 dollars to buy the keys and they dont care if they will need to spend other 50/100 dollars to buy the same keys, open the same chests and obtain the same gear. (but with an higher item level)

GG.