PvMP fast balance passes

[WhiteGoliath]

I respect that you play hunter, and so you want to protect the class you enjoy. However, if you look we do call for Warg nerfs. In addition, if you PvPed any during Mordor, you'd know the ungodly DPS that Hunter can do, especially when supported in groups. You'd also know the position of Burglar. In this thread we're trying to bypass bias, and state obvious things that need fixing. Hunter, Burg, and Warg (through crit mag) are obvious things.

so heres my answer for you idea of scaling creeps on hunter/burgs

nah dont think that % boosts to anything will help out, all those nabs who praise Giliodor, spilo and whoever the 3th was should think about the fact that when you base a creep on the strongest freep class, you will cause trouble for freep classes that arent as strong as a hunter, by this I point out towards LM for example, cappy, rk, guard and so on. Then again you got people QQ'in cuz their class is heavily underpowered against creeps due the scaling based on hunters/burg dps. You cannot pull this straight by % adjustments to only creeps, you have to equal out the hunter and burg on the other freep classes first, before you will scale creeps on freeps.

No need to nerf hunters itself, my idea on the etten armour is quite well working to equal freeps out.

If this doesn't rlly happen, I see no point in returning to the moors

and again, you CANNOT remove things like crit magnitude or something or lower it for one class, cuz that will affect PvE aswell.

so pls, stop pushing the idea of changing % based stuff and look at what needs to be equal first, but the idea of cleaning up the mess like crit magnitude boosts on creep sounds okay. Think the dev first should fix this issue on freepside to equal classes out with armour, then start working on creeps based on the freepside, cuz then things will get balanced, else you get freep classes suffering from the balance of creep vs hunter/burg

[Snowlock]

I respect that you play hunter, and so you want to protect the class you enjoy. However, if you look we do call for Warg nerfs. In addition, if you PvPed any during Mordor, you'd know the ungodly DPS that Hunter can do, especially when supported in groups. You'd also know the position of Burglar. In this thread we're trying to bypass bias, and state obvious things that need fixing. Hunter, Burg, and Warg (through crit mag) are obvious things.

I really don't care about nerfs. I don't call for warg nerfs, I try to think of ways as a player to handle them. If you're trying to bypass bias, then I'd think you'd address what Vastin is talking about, which are creep buffs. To me, it's just coming across as another opportunity to grind an old axe. I dont' assume you know or care about my opinion on these forray's into balance but even if it's achieved, it'll be invalidated by the raid gear anyway. OR they'll listen to you guys, make audacity a requirement and you guys can farm the couple audacity less freeps who'll face the swarm of buffed creeps.

I think this is a rare opportunity, the first we've had since Osgilliath, go get your creeps fixed. You don't need to ask for the ruination freepside in the process.

[Spilo]

I really don't care about nerfs. I don't call for warg nerfs, I try to think of ways as a player to handle them. If you're trying to bypass bias, then I'd think you'd address what Vastin is talking about, which are creep buffs. To me, it's just coming across as another opportunity to grind an old axe. I dont' assume you know or care about my opinion on these forray's into balance but even if it's achieved, it'll be invalidated by the raid gear anyway. OR they'll listen to you guys, make audacity a requirement and you guys can farm the couple audacity less freeps who'll face the swarm of buffed creeps.

I think this is a rare opportunity, the first we've had since Osgilliath, go get your creeps fixed. You don't need to ask for the ruination freepside in the process.

The reason Freep nerfs were brought into play was because it's hard to talk about buffing Creeps when it may put so many other Freeps into a horrible position:

Also worth noting/repeating VASTIN, that PvMP balance is going to be difficult with such huge discrepancies in Freep potency. You could balance things around Burgs/Hunters, and every other Freep class would be miserable, or you could balance around other Freeps, and Burgs/Hunters would still massacre people. Freep PvE balance is important to PvMP balance.

[siipperi]

If they want to check balanced freep DPS classes they should look for RK ST. It's obvious that hunters and burglars have over the top damage when they have ability to hit 1/4rd of morale hits to creeps even with bellow average gear.

I have said it before and will say it again. RK is in very good spot DPS wise what is balanced and game should be look to model other classes after that. It's obvious that if they want to have PvP balance there needs to happen PvE balance passes around the same time. It doesn't help if they do PvP balance pass, then followed with PvE balance pass that might have good or bad changes since it will mean balance in PvP changes radically after that.

[Lioncourt86]

I'll preface by saying I unsubbed about a week after Mordor was released because PvMP was so clearly broken, compiled with no blue names even acknowledging it. Here's to hoping it can be made competitive-ish again, but the lack of transparency (and not just regarding PvMP) is a bigger turn-off from the game for me, personally. I can sort of understand why it's that way given the size of the team, but even so... anyway.

Take all of my advice with a grain of salt as I don't know the exact state of PvMP anymore, but I imagine it's pretty close creep-wise as when I left.

I want to take some time over the next month or two to make a series of fast passes over the creep dps and toughness sources to bring them back into line and get a better sense of what that compounded factor is so that we can work it into their advancement in future updates.

Be careful. Warg was the only class that could kill anything quickly, but there was no skill to it. There's been plenty of good threads the past few months about redistributing Bestial Claws damage.

Discourage the mass of wargs without making the class useless, encourage playing the other dps classes and make them feel relevant. To me, it is ideal for a small warg pack (3-4) of average (i.e. spam claws) players to be lethal, while a well-played (meaning their skill rotation is very efficient, diverse and well timed) solo warg can still find success.

As far as toughness goes, I think base mits are now pretty much non-existent.

Also, any creep debuff that lowers armour levels is practically irrelevant against players. Please change to lowering mits instead, if possible.

I will also be looking at trying to get the dps/vitality ratios of the two sides more similar looking, so that one side isn't a huge bag of HP with low DPS and vice versa - it's much easier to manage balance when the two sides are using sets of numbers that at least resemble each other.

I mean, keep in mind freeps have their dps at a scale that is meant for NPCs with huge pools of morale. In freep spars however, 1-shots are not hard to achieve. I would hate for that ease to carry over into PvMP for both sides. If you make creeps have morale pools similar to freeps, then they MUST take less damage to compensate.

Likewise, because they would take far less damage to keep fights lasting longer than five seconds, their damage might not need as big a boost as you'd expect. Again though, I don't know the current state of the game here, just keep that in mind if you take my advice.

And if you do make health levels more-or-less universal between sides and keep dps levels at a point where things don't die instantly, then HEALING levels will have to be considered for BOTH sides. If morale levels are brought down for creeps but their heals are not changed, they become that much more potent. I don't know where freep healing levels are now, but they have historically been higher than necessary. Last I heard though, they didn't scale at all with Mordor so *shrug*.

First pass will be a pretty major bump to creep DPS, as that is clearly anemic at the moment compared to the NPC vitality in the area. This ought to show up as soon as we begin testing 21.3, but my goal is to make multiple iteration passes before 21.3 actually releases.

I would be careful when evaluating creep DPS based on how it fares against freep NPCs. It might be that the NPCs are the ones in need of re-adjusting. Don't assume that scaling creeps to be able to kill NPCs at similar rates as freeps will mean that balance has been achieved. The NPCs themselves could use some rebalancing, but please do not focus on that over balancing PvMP player vs. player wise.

And even after all this is done, hunter and burgs are still broken OP. If after all of the rebalancing is done and the dust has cleared, burgs are still one-shotting everything, then I will make suggestions on how to remedy that. Making Coup de Grace require a critical hit to be used comes to mind.

But hopefully, your changes will bring enough balance that the state of Hunters/Burgs isn't as crushing for PvMP. Good luck. If it seems good, I would consider playing again.

[Snowlock]

Here we go...

If they want to check balanced freep DPS classes they should look for RK ST. It's obvious that hunters and burglars have over the top damage when they have ability to hit 1/4rd of morale hits to creeps even with bellow average gear.

The reason Freep nerfs were brought into play was because it's hard to talk about buffing Creeps when it may put so many other Freeps into a horrible position:

Right, no so just put Hunters and Burgs in a horrible position.

[Deadly_Myths]

there is something that i don't get... freeps complain that creeps always zerg freeps or always have more numbers in group/raid fights, yet when there is a buff for creeps they give opinions based on that, i mean it is like don't give the creeps decent buffs or don't buff the creeps by much because creeps will always have more numbers than freeps and when they do that freeps start to complain again that creeps always zerging or always have more numbers (mostly because they didn't give the creeps good buffs which made them make a large creep groups to beat the freeps)
maybe if they buffed the creeps based on 1vs1 or small group vs group situations moors will be less zergy because creeps won't need 12 dps to kill a mini or 4-5 healers to survive freeps dps like before.

[Corwelleon]

These ideas are great.

I too agree that freeps should only be able to wear moors armor. How to go about doing that so freeps aren't naked until they get the required amount of comms to get all 6 pieces of armor and some jewelry, I don't really know what could be done. Anyone have any suggestions regarding how to implement moors only gear?

I don't think the devs could or should enforce raid armor as it would be difficult and not well received by the Freeps- who we need to see more of! However, the sentiment is a good one. If we all agree that the combats should be longer on both sides, then changing audacity may be the easiest solution. The defense modifier used to increase with the number of audacity points. If this mechanic was re-introduced, the "carrot" of increased survivability may be better than the "stick" of gating the Moors for gear and thus, help restore balance and reward folks for participating in the Moors rather than being given a flat reduction just for showing up.

Another thing that comes to mind from all these great posts is the initial desire of SSG to do "fast passes" and make quick and easy changes. Reworking classes, skills and corruptions seems to be out of the intitial scope. If at the end of the day the factions AND classes have "relative" balance, the stated goals will be completed. So, KISS (keep it simple, stupid) may be the guiding principle - at least initially.

That said, I have enjoyed the explosion of really good ideas and Cordovan's attempt to help this thread stay focused and helpful. Cheers!

Aa/Cor

[Aedfrith]

I don't think the devs could or should enforce raid armor as it would be difficult and not well received by the Freeps-

The evidence of the last few months shows us exactly what the devs and their paymasters care about the opinion of players, freep or otherwise.

[Tangaar]

It hurts when i read that BA is in a very good spot...they are not

[siipperi]

Here we go...

If you can't have unbiased look you have no place in balance thread. Sorry but this is thing that Cordovan was talking about. We have actually opportunity to utilize this and then we have people with agendas trying to bash other people and put them in low light with low blows that are based on nothing.

[Giliodor]

nah dont think that % boosts to anything will help out, all those nabs who praise Giliodor, spilo and whoever the 3th was should think about the fact that when you base a creep on the strongest freep class, you will cause trouble for freep classes that arent as strong as a hunter, by this I point out towards LM for example, cappy, rk, guard and so on. Then again you got people QQ'in cuz their class is heavily underpowered against creeps due the scaling based on hunters/burg dps. You cannot pull this straight by % adjustments to only creeps, you have to equal out the hunter and burg on the other freep classes first, before you will scale creeps on freeps.

No need to nerf hunters itself, my idea on the etten armour is quite well working to equal freeps out.

If this doesn't rlly happen, I see no point in returning to the moors

Your suggestion on PvMP gear is exactly the same thing I proposed, except you want to make it class specific, which isn't going to happen, because it is too much effort. The fact is that hunter/burglar DPS is completely disproportionate to that of other classes, and if you want to have any kind of standard to balance things around, those two classes need to be nerfed. Otherwise, creep heals will have to be balanced against either hunter DPS, or champion/RK DPS. Either way, the result would be very poor.
Whether the standard is set by nerfing/buffing certain classes by means of the armour they wear or the base damage of their skills doesn't not make any difference whatsoever.

No one suggested that creeps should be balanced around hunters/burglars, and in fact I believe that I, Spilo and whoever the 3th (*3rd) was would agree that firstly, freep classes have to be brought on par with eachother, and then creeps need to be balanced around that. That is exactly why my post with suggestions included nerfs to hunters/burglars.

and again, you CANNOT remove things like crit magnitude or something or lower it for one class, cuz that will affect PvE aswell.

Both of these classes would gain a buff like the Monster Play buff that reduces their damage, I didn't say it needs to be a PvE nerf as well (although it really should be).

Part of the problem Vastin, with coming to the forums is going to be parsing out the hyperbole. This is hyperbole (you can probably guess from all the size and color - I've remvoed in my reply). Players will use every opportunity unfortunately to seek advantage from devs who may not know what they're looking at, or at least they think the dev doesn't know. You're going to see alot of the above from creep players who are unused to fighting competitive hunters as they've largely been farming them since 2008. It's become such the norm that hunters are creep food that they're having trouble adjusting. And they hate burgs because well because it's a stealth class. Though they all seem to play wargs and enjoy them. So beware, I hope you don't get caught up in this stuff.

I don't think you've played in PvP for quite some time if you can bring yourself to say something like this. I, on the other hand, have played my hunter in the Moors, and there have been plenty of occasions where I was able to 2/3-shot creeps. Outside of that, the consistent damage is still way over the top.
People don't hate burglars because they're a stealth class, they hate burglars because they get 1-shot by burglars. When they don't get 1-shot, they get a bleed on them that ticks for 15k per tick. When a burglar doesn't attack them from stealth, they get hit with 30k Flashing Blades and Double-edged Strikes. 20k Feint Attacks. With mitigations traited. That is outrageous.
I suggest you remove yourself from this discussion, given that you have shown time and time again that you are utterly incapable of giving any sort of unbiased view of the state of PvP, and when confronted with the things you say, you fail to provide any kind of logical arguments.

OR they'll listen to you guys, make audacity a requirement and you guys can farm the couple audacity less freeps who'll face the swarm of buffed creeps.

I would also advocate that PvMP gear/jewellery has to be free, in which case this issue wouldn't arise. The entire point is to give people equal stats, and balance things from there. No one has to be put at a disadvantage.

Right, no so just put Hunters and Burgs in a horrible position.

Said no one. Just bring them to the same level as any other freep class.


Every time you show up, the threads get sidetracked and start filling up with misinformation. Perhaps we could, for once, try to avoid that. Please stop spreading misinformation.

It hurts when i read that BA is in a very good spot...they are not

On the basis of what are you saying that? It doesn't hurt to provide arguments.

[Silverking77]

Any "balance" it would seem to me would have to start freepside with PVP gear, you could hurt the very OP classes a bit with it and buff the classes that need a bit more dps to compete in the moors through stats on that gear. I have no idea on how to allow freeps to get this pvp only gear but its a good idea to make it so they have to use pvp gear in pvp and pve in pve. As long as there is huge differences in freep classes damage and healing abilities, some classes will always be suffering in pvp. Then in line with quick changes, I felt this last update creeps were only missing maybe a couple of things, toss the finesse idea and add it to a overall base stat increase. Make opposing faction keep and OP npc's have the same morale and those changes should make things more playable.

Yea it would be nice to have a whole lot of things done and there are some great suggestions in this thread like, make backdoors unusable in combat, make OP's buff only comms/inf/renown, ya know just too many to list in the end. For me I have always enjoyed the game because of its story bringing us the only game where it was meant to be a battle of weak/huge numbers against the mighty few and I see more and more people(myself included) who want to only 1v1 and this ruins the great team play aspects we have enjoyed. I have given up on the freepside grind as I just dont have the time so I only creep and enjoy being the underdogs that have to work together and there is many games you can play if you just want parity so keep in mind at least some of us do not want class mirrors.

Good luck to us all,

Warpig

[Disperate]

A few suggestions for big overall changes:

4. If Creeps do get love, consider nerfing Defiler heals. I know this one won't be popular with Creeps, but Defilers HPS is insane in Mordor- the only thing holding them back is the Mitigation dilemma. If that is fixed, for balance it may be worth examining Defiler heals.

I'd like to qualify this with a different suggestion - defiler heals are OP because they stack - and with so many defi's about, this is a big problem.
Against solo/small groups of freeps, defiler needs their self-heals and often only just manages to stay alive using them.
I think it would be much better to limit the amount that each defi HoT can be applied to a player, even go back to how it was in previous times when they didn't stack at all.
Seeing a WL at the front of a raid with 3 or 4 rows of defi HoTs is a little ridiculous.
Also, the class is often played by people who simply throw HoTs here there and everywhere (often on undamaged targets) to get easy renown. I'd like to see this stop.

[Riza666]

If any of you have nothing good to say and plan/continue on being negative, keep it out of this thread.
People obviously tend to disagree with each other but keep it in Private messages as most of us are trying to fix something that has been a problem in PvMP for a very long time and now we might actually have the chance to fix it by working together, not against each other.

Also, I 100% agree with Spilo, Giliodor and siipperi. They have stated everything I would have so thanks for saving me from writing a wall of text :P

#MakeTheEttenmoorsGreatAgain

[Gwyndor]

Hey folks, Vastin here...

Many MANY thanks in advance. It's a great relief to hear that an effort is underway to address the many pressing problems we have with pvp.

I could write a lengthy wall of text on my numerous issues and observations, but I think there's enough to work with that's been posted already.

I know it may be just “combat” that you’re looking at right now, but please strongly consider the other aspects that would enhance the pvp experience. I echo what WhiteGoliath said in #23. First, eliminate outposts and the pointless, constant flip mechanic that dominates most of the action. Alternatively, reduce their number (maybe 1 for each side), or change their function.

Secondly, please consider putting the original orc camp and elf camp back where they used to be! These were our beloved hotspots, where numerous and dynamic, sometimes all-night long fights used to be focused. It would serve to reduce the back and forth endless gv/grams shuffling, and put fights back towards the centre of map, where they used to be and ought to be!

[Disperate]

I just thought of another thing, regarding NPC's:
Their morale should be lowered to make them easier to kill, but it shouldn't go back to how it was before when it was insanely easy to capture keeps and OP's - they should do more damage instead.
If they are going to be there at all they should have an impact in the game, or else why have them there?
With lower morale and high damage they won't take an annoying amount of time to kill but there will be a consequence for attacking keeps/Op's - you will take damage.
This will mean that only groups and not soloers will get away with taking keeps - as it should be.
As things are with high morale and low damage NPC's are little more than an annoyance.

[siipperi]

Many MANY thanks in advance. It's a great relief to hear that an effort is underway to address the many pressing problems we have with pvp.

I could write a lengthy wall of text on my numerous issues and observations, but I think there's enough to work with that's been posted already.

I know it may be just “combat” that you’re looking at right now, but please strongly consider the other aspects that would enhance the pvp experience. I echo what WhiteGoliath said in #23. First, eliminate outposts and the pointless, constant flip mechanic that dominates most of the action. Alternatively, reduce their number (maybe 1 for each side), or change their function.

Secondly, please consider putting the original orc camp and elf camp back where they used to be! These were our beloved hotspots, where numerous and dynamic, sometimes all-night long fights used to be focused. It would serve to reduce the back and forth endless gv/grams shuffling, and put fights back towards the centre of map, where they used to be and ought to be!

One of biggest mistakes of PvP will be to remove PvE targets. That way you get very stagnant combat in one spot that never moves, because there is no need to. OPs are rather insignificant, sure people flip them but at least you can get some off zerg action that way. And tbh for creeps it's rather hard to flip OP and even as freep it takes good 1-3 minutes depending on the class as of average.

See Osgiliath as perfect example how lack of PvE targets create very stagnant farming in one spot.

[jomanjy]

I'd like to qualify this with a different suggestion - defiler heals are OP because they stack - and with so many defi's about, this is a big problem.
Against solo/small groups of freeps, defiler needs their self-heals and often only just manages to stay alive using them.
I think it would be much better to limit the amount that each defi HoT can be applied to a player, even go back to how it was in previous times when they didn't stack at all.
Seeing a WL at the front of a raid with 3 or 4 rows of defi HoTs is a little ridiculous.
Also, the class is often played by people who simply throw HoTs here there and everywhere (often on undamaged targets) to get easy renown. I'd like to see this stop.

agreed

[Snowlock]

memes from 2007

We were already told to keep it civil. I'd rather do that.

If you can't have unbiased look you have no place in balance thread. Sorry but this is thing that Cordovan was talking about. We have actually opportunity to utilize this and then we have people with agendas trying to bash other people and put them in low light with low blows that are based on nothing.

I don't recall anyone ever accusing you of being unbiased. If you're concerned about that, then just talk about creeps. My entrance in this thread was to say oaky sure buff them.

[maetamaeta]

1) Lag. The more players the more lag. What will you do to prevent all of the players converging in one spot and having a terrible experience?
2) Keeps and Camps. Traditionally (as in over 5 years ago now) Keeps and Camps where places where the outnumbered could go for npc assistance. While NPC health is up, their damage is still largely forgettable so keeps and camps become zerg traps, not places to even out the numbers.
3) Outposts. Outposts give damage buffs. Due to their soloable nature (assuming creep buffs) and maps, they're generally in the hands of creeps when creeps are out in numbers and in effect do the opposite of their intended purpose, which is to be a balance effect. Freeps will spend their entire time riding around from outpost to outpost only to have it taken right back from them from a single map in. Or fight without the mastery buff at all outnumbered and out maneuvered.
4) Faction update. Creeps were designed to be a swarm faction. Its why they were given the ability to teleport across the map in numbers and given the WL AOE rez as well as have their healers be tanks. If you're going to update their dps and survivability, then they needn't be a swarm faction any longer. Will this be addressed?

The fact that you don't play anymore is abundantly evident in this post. It takes my 24 man raids almost 7 minutes to flip a keep, and creeps cannot solo outposts, although freeps still can. Their damage is almost certainly not neglible either, and the NPC stuns are a serious issue, before you even consider the lag of fighting in the keep.

I am going to save my feedback for bullroarer or after I see the new freep gear (Pve/aud or whatever combo people decide on) in action. I hope you decide to do the same, because your feedback is clearly based on prior updates and not what is currently going on. I'd also encourage you to read Vastin's post about what he is offering (fast passes for creeps), and adjust your suggestions based on what your experiences are, playing a creep, this update. You're free to join my raid tonight (at 7pm, just like on BW!) if you'd like, to help with this, as well.

[Nouri]

listen to siipperi, Giliodor, and Spilo because they are extremely competent and knowledgeable players who know what they are talking about.

^^ This!

[Ionlyzerg]

If any of you have nothing good to say and plan/continue on being negative, keep it out of this thread.
People obviously tend to disagree with each other but keep it in Private messages as most of us are trying to fix something that has been a problem in PvMP for a very long time and now we might actually have the chance to fix it by working together, not against each other.

Also, I 100% agree with Spilo, Giliodor and siipperi. They have stated everything I would have so thanks for saving me from writing a wall of text :P

#MakeTheEttenmoorsGreatAgain

I would also like to endorse Wulfdur's suggestions. (with the extra remarks made by Spilo regarding them)

I don't care if every player in the game gets ignored by Vastin aside from Spilo, Giliodor, Wulfdur, and siipperi. If their proposed changes make it in-game, I will be EXTREMELY pleased with SSG and LOTRO. In fact, I would renew my VIP if all or most of these changes make an appearance in-game.

[fmac81]

so heres my answer for you idea of scaling creeps on hunter/burgs [...]
so pls, stop pushing the idea of changing % based stuff and look at what needs to be equal first, but the idea of cleaning up the mess like crit magnitude boosts on creep sounds okay. Think the dev first should fix this issue on freepside to equal classes out with armour, then start working on creeps based on the freepside, cuz then things will get balanced, else you get freep classes suffering from the balance of creep vs hunter/burg

I think Zaheer/Altair does have a fair point that any minor tweak could have large ramifications... I totally get that, and his response earlier made me reconsider my request for a straight nerf of Barrage (low-key zinger at me btw).

Part of this conundrum is that players are NOT going to use the current Audacity armor in the moors - because, for one, its only item 326, and for 2: not nearly as potent stat wise as their normal gear. If Freeps had a streamlined armor process for the moors (whereby you received more commendations from quests, and could thus barter for rank 1, 2, 3 sets etc), then the balance would be improved. Sure the variety of morale range would be limited, but essence slots might still make up for it a bit. As it stands, however, 6500-7500 commendations a pop is going to cost an arm and a leg of every creep alt and freep alt just for 1 piece of armor, if you're on a quiet server such as myself.

In a "perfect" moors, I would like to see all PvE gear disabled except for LIs, class items, and bows. Jewelry would be available to acquire at each rank, same for armor sets. Each rank set might have either more audacity, or maybe a set bonus or something, but the SAME stat amounts, at least for the first few ranks, that mimic your typical PvE teal gear. This would only be accessible as part of the Moors "outfit" on the character, thats only activated in the PvP area (as in, you could equip it in the Moors outfit, and then be able to sell off the item to get back the inventory space). I think an earlier response said something about increasing Rank bonuses, which I would support.


One other thing would be to PLEASE increase the commendations cap. 15,000 commendations is paltry. Make it 30,000. Or 50,000. Just anything higher than 15,000.

[Happychappy]

I just don’t get how they can do a decent pvmp balance pass when the classes themselves are not balanced.

Which classes are in a good spot to balance against?

Why do we have so many classes with useless trait lines and bugged skills etc?. Fix these first and give us some variety of gameplay that’s competitive.

Horse first, Cart second please.