PvMP fast balance passes

[siipperi]

Onror is right, creeps start with Zilch, why shouldn't freeps? I'd go even further I'd make sure that certain class skills only become available in moors when you reach a certain rank, same as it is for creeps.

You know getting freep to even bellow average state requires immensely more time and effort than creep does? And before you pull valar card out of your, you know getting full store creep is like 1/3rd of valared freep in terms of price, which valared freep frankly isnt even on level of bellow average freep gear wise but miles behind. There is never any question that getting freep to prime pvp ready requires hell of a lot work compared to creep. This is exactly reason why there is certain creep crowd at same time crying uselessness of creep and at same time they saying they quited frep side since immense work one has to put forth to be acceptable level on that side.

None of this takes away from balancing efforts and what should be done to both sides but what I say is absolute truth and making some gimmicky skill hindering to other side does nothing to what this game actually needs.

[Dinara]

Just in case the Dev's are reading this thread, please watch this video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dKddvB_EbjQ

[Skullgatherer]

1. NO LAGS !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

2. Stop all Quests for Freeps / Creeps over rank 8 or 10! More PVP !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

3. No Lags!

4. New Class for the creeps .

5. No Lags!

5. Back to the rules with the camps!

6. No Lags !

7. Dismissed Outposts !

8. No Lags!

9. Vote Meglas for GM!

10. NO LAGS!

11. If you travel to Glan Vraig you will enter a PvMP area, where all EU servers are included.

12. No Lags!

[Spilo]

Onror is right, creeps start with Zilch, why shouldn't freeps? I'd go even further I'd make sure that certain class skills only become available in moors when you reach a certain rank, same as it is for creeps.

One bad turn doesn't deserve another.

In an optimal world, it's fairly easy for both new Creeps and Freeps to reach a level of competency with gear, but a longer time with class competency. As of now, PvE grind for Freeps, and the absurd Audacity/Corruption grind for Creeps prevents both.

[siipperi]

Just in case the Dev's are reading this thread, please watch this video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dKddvB_EbjQ

While we all agree burglar is over the top, it should be said that half of creeps in that video use movement assist and have no clue what they are supposed to do with enemy. Half of wargs in the video are trying to get date with the burglar rather than killing him. Warg at 3.40 runs against the wall several seconds before he realizes he runs against the wall and has movement assist on which can be seen from turning slowly while stunned.

I think they are aware that there are few skills that aren't even important to DPS rotation which are in need of nerf for burglar.

One bad turn doesn't deserve another.

In an optimal world, it's fairly easy for both new Creeps and Freeps to reach a level of competency with gear, but a longer time with class competency. As of now, PvE grind for Freeps, and the absurd Audacity/Corruption grind for Creeps prevents both.

I don't think creep grind is absurd at all. I have done few creeps post 95 level and it usually takes week or two to get proper rank and full or close to full auda, sure some skills are locked but lets not pretend like 90%+ of creeps aren't store purchased next to nothing.

[SavileRow]

While we all agree burglar is over the top, it should be said that half of creeps in that video use movement assist and have no clue what they are supposed to do with enemy. Half of wargs in the video are trying to get date with the burglar rather than killing him. Warg at 3.40 runs against the wall several seconds before he realizes he runs against the wall and has movement assist on which can be seen from turning slowly while stunned.

I think they are aware that there are few skills that aren't even important to DPS rotation which are in need of nerf for burglar.



I don't think creep grind is absurd at all. I have done few creeps post 95 level and it usually takes week or two to get proper rank and full or close to full auda, sure some skills are locked but lets not pretend like 90%+ of creeps aren't store purchased next to nothing.

where is your research for this sweeping statement?.....25 audacity in 2 weeks?...come off it, your lying through your teeth there son. Every single creep who plays is laughing at you now sunbeam and will treat anything of value you have to say further with the contempt this statement deserves.

[Spilo]

While we all agree burglar is over the top, it should be said that half of creeps in that video use movement assist and have no clue what they are supposed to do with enemy. Half of wargs in the video are trying to get date with the burglar rather than killing him. Warg at 3.40 runs against the wall several seconds before he realizes he runs against the wall and has movement assist on which can be seen from turning slowly while stunned.

I think they are aware that there are few skills that aren't even important to DPS rotation which are in need of nerf for burglar.



I don't think creep grind is absurd at all. I have done few creeps post 95 level and it usually takes week or two to get proper rank and full or close to full auda, sure some skills are locked but lets not pretend like 90%+ of creeps aren't store purchased next to nothing.

If it's done in 2 weeks, then that's all you're going to be doing. I believe it's around 86,000 comms for Audacity. It's not near the PvE grind for Freeps, especially since it's relatively one and done, but it's not fun.

[Nifroth]

If it's done in 2 weeks, then that's all you're going to be doing. I believe it's around 86,000 comms for Audacity. It's not near the PvE grind for Freeps, especially since it's relatively one and done, but it's not fun.

Why is there even any comparison between freep preparation for pvp and creep preparation to reach any competitive levels. The sole purpose of monster play is to engage in pvmp they have no other use so obviously they should be at least slightly more than punching bags right off the bat.

[Constrictions]

I don't think creep grind is absurd at all. I have done few creeps post 95 level and it usually takes week or two to get proper rank and full or close to full auda, sure some skills are locked but lets not pretend like 90%+ of creeps aren't store purchased next to nothing.

The grind to get landscape gear is pretty ridiculous. It's like grinding to get enough radiance for the watcher, except that radiance gear is ~3x better in total amount of stats it gives you compared to quest/purple gear. It's simply inane. Instead of grinding your ### though, you can use *drumroll* the store.

Creeps on the other hand, are stuck in the mud for quite awhile. Good solid few weeks of minimum 3 hours a day during prime time for sure. This isn't actually that different compared to the original design with r0 creeps as greenies/swarm mobs. However, where you could get fast tracked into competency by other creep players helping you and grouping with you, this has been replaced with the store (Grouping with other players is now 100% necessary for pretty much everyone). Compound that with the lack of scaling stats and, you get to see trashy burglars win for pressing nothing but 6 buttons over a 15 second period.



Wanna get geared to start learning class competency as a freep? Spend ~$100 on lootboxes or 25+ hours beating your head against a wall. Wanna get enough skills/traits to be cmpetetive as a creep? Spend $100 on the store of 25+ hours beating your head against a wall.

Almost identical pattern of frustrating grinds and shortcuts for both sides. Keep in mind that greenies were meant to be tuned to level 40 freeps when the level cap was level 50. There's no such equivalent anymore, even with scaled freeps.

[Constrictions]

If it's done in 2 weeks, then that's all you're going to be doing. I believe it's around 86,000 comms for Audacity. It's not near the PvE grind for Freeps, especially since it's relatively one and done, but it's not fun.

Would definitely argue that Audacity (if you for some reason decide it is worth even getting as a freep) is not even 10% of the grind to be PvMP ready. Makes up a much larger % for creeps.

[Cassie4486]

The one major fix is not to allow any freeps to use gear other than the Moors gear.

The other issue is exploiting. Burgs are able to get behind the one shooters at grams where the quest giver is for the slug quest and
one shoot people there and hips before a npc can even get a hit off. So now they are farming free points.

[Mezzak]

I am certain the problem lies in the fact that so much gets neglected because of certain *newer changes to the game.
For example, Finesse negates every single other defensive stat a creep has and focuses them on mitigation corruptions. and yes some creeps luckily have some class traits that gives armor etc, that have slightly higher base but these are nothing compared to the corruptions.
so essentially right now it boils down to, get Offense Defense and Health, from corruptions, its simply to much things piled ontop of corruptions. because of Finesse, since a large portion of the freeps are most likely at 30%. essentially finesse is really the big issue. it gives people a 100% hit chance. wich is crazy.
also i just went on a warleader and drank a resist consume,popped resist banner, and traited 3 resist corruptions, i got up to 29% resistance. given its a R9. but someone with Finesse up to 30% would negate all that. and also reduce every block evade and parry. at the same time.

corruptions should be a way to change the class to something you want. the base should come from the actual base stats that the classes have. remember when people were called greenies, blue? and signature when they eventully hit r5 and could buy all those passives? and corruptions were basicly the health for dmg dmg for health etc. to make your own playstyle.

Now its, you need 3 Phys mit, 3 tact mit, and 3 crit, and then the last 3 can be changed abit, but currently crit defense is the best to slot there. it boils down to, corruptions are no longer traits, they are the new passive upgrades

[Giliodor]

game will never be balanced. you all should just stop. idk if it's that they don't want it balanced but it is certain they don't have the ability to make it balanced coz they aren't very smart. not only can they not do it, i bet they wont even try

It's virtually impossible to completely balance an MMO. That doesn't mean that steps towards bringing different classes or different sides closer together are a waste of time. They make the game more enjoyable to play (at least for most people).

In World of Warcraft, for example, despite its very frequent class balance patches, there are always classes that underperform and classes that overperform, even if only slightly.

[Dotlbeme]

The one major fix is not to allow any freeps to use gear other than the Moors gear.

The other issue is exploiting. Burgs are able to get behind the one shooters at grams where the quest giver is for the slug quest and
one shoot people there and hips before a npc can even get a hit off. So now they are farming free points.

That is pretty outrageous, but for me, the fact that a warden by himself can flip an outpost is bad enough much less the ones that can flip a keep like the Lumber Camp. We had a warden come into TA quest room, dragging all the trash from outside. He was able to ignore the whole room and target creeps inside. ONE freep should not be able to shrug off 20 NPCs inside a keep that easily (even if he was rank 10-ish).

[Cordovan]

So how is that working out for You ??? Considering some posts from both sides. I don't really think that was a realistic wish. On the other I guess it was worth a try. At least I hope You can see it with a sense of humour as I'm doing right now reading some comments. Kinda predictable but still fun. Maybe even worth some popcorn. Should I send You some too ??? Sometimes I feel sorry for you guys. You just never get a break. Damned if You. Damned if You don't.

I've been a bit busy, but have now gone through and cleaned up more of the thread. I have now removed about thirty comments that drug the conversation off-topic. With some exceptions, we aren't particularly concerned with what one person thinks of another person's idea, and conversations that became a debate between two people over personality disputes have been removed. Overall this thread has been good, though, and very productive. We've received a lot of good analysis and feedback, and appreciate it.

[Turin_Turambar_The_F]

I guess for a 'fast' pass you can always look at melee/ranged/tactical mitigations and slide the bar per the disparity in dps... naturally after 'updating' creep base stats, then you'll have more manageable class segments to balance against v balancing against 1 or 2 classes... then subsequent passes can look at revamping skills once a baseline for 'group' combat pace has been set.

[GrandCru]

I guess for a 'fast' pass you can always look at melee/ranged/tactical mitigations and slide the bar per the disparity in dps.

Agreed.
And slide the bar per the disparity in heal, as much as it's been slidden with the Vanguard Rune of Enchantment.
I for one would settle for only half of that increase, if Fell Restoration was Immediate and with half its CD.

[J-Moneyforever]

1. NO LAGS !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

2. Stop all Quests for Freeps / Creeps over rank 8 or 10! More PVP !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

3. No Lags!

4. New Class for the creeps .

5. No Lags!

5. Back to the rules with the camps!

6. No Lags !

7. Dismissed Outposts !

8. No Lags!

9. Vote Meglas for GM!

10. NO LAGS!

11. If you travel to Glan Vraig you will enter a PvMP area, where all EU servers are included.

12. No Lags!

Glad someone finally brought this up. Talk about balance all you want and it's a good thought to work on it. But the reality is over 50% of pvpers who quit playing did so because of the unplayable and abysmal lag.

[Lord.Funk]

I've been a bit busy, but have now gone through and cleaned up more of the thread. I have now removed about thirty comments that drug the conversation off-topic. With some exceptions, we aren't particularly concerned with what one person thinks of another person's idea, and conversations that became a debate between two people over personality disputes have been removed. Overall this thread has been good, though, and very productive. We've received a lot of good analysis and feedback, and appreciate it.

Well done sir !!! yes I agree. Disagreeing in topics and being able to discuss it is healthy in a democracy. However some don't seem to realize the difference between attacking the person behind the idea/opinion vs. just disagreeing on the acctual opinion. Also that it is important to let all be heard. Not just the ones that scream the loudest. I'm glad to see You do understand that. In fact I applaud that, as it is a rare skill in this day and age.

[Dranak123]

I've been a bit busy, but have now gone through and cleaned up more of the thread. I have now removed about thirty comments that drug the conversation off-topic. With some exceptions, we aren't particularly concerned with what one person thinks of another person's idea, and conversations that became a debate between two people over personality disputes have been removed. Overall this thread has been good, though, and very productive. We've received a lot of good analysis and feedback, and appreciate it.

as creeps will be balanced to match freeps could freeps not be incentivised to use pvp armour via audacity bonuses as these bonuses will automatically fall off in pve. There could be a bonus for 3rd piece that's real good to disincentivise 4 piece raid gear that may re-appear with bonuses. Then bonuses for 4th 5th and a good cap bonus for 6th. If they are strong enough then no sensible moors player would consider pve gear. So to be clear bonuses kick in on attaining audacity at 13, 17, 21, 25. We all keep the gear that's in the system (new aud armour). Creeps don't get the bonuses but are rather balanced towards an assumption that freeps will fairly quickly attain 25 audacity. This may be a low input solution that can be rolled forwards....as updates with better essences will strengthen the armour when replaced and creep balance can be tweeked as per usual following this. Following on from this there may be room for class specific pieces that can balance out weak moors freeps...err LM...as everybody gets pre-occupied on hunter/burg players. I play a hunter and champ now as they compete. I don't play my LM Guard RK as they are not as fluid to play or as strong. ie give the LM -50% off his inductions, give the Guard a bow with +100k mastery but also -25% inc healing (looking forward to some feedback on that one ). So that's my input so far....buff the freeps through audacity , balance classes with specific gear , and then match the creeps up to compete with them .

[Cedrozzi]

One of the "imbalances" that cannot be changed without immense effort and time is simply the amount of classes freep vs creep. Without adding an entire new creep class (though it would be tremendous if it happened) would be to look into a dps stance for defilers and giving all these defilers an option to dps instead (buff dps/reduce heals). The disparity of possible range dps options freep vs creep is noticable (more so now with all these hunters) and this would also add some range dps to the creep contingent. No idea how or what numbers will change but seems like something to consider to in a way create a new class without creating a new creep class.

Reavers need help in many ways, they get destroyed by range/slows and get shredded.

Warg sprint/hips took a nerf (which is fine) but pretty slap in the faceish seeing all these burgs hipsing like nobody's business. Also, warg sprint should be able to catch any freep running away save for some using similar sprint skills.

No bleed should be unpottable providing pot is off cooldown.

Better creep food and more attainable for lower ranks, maybe scale it by rank like morale/power pots?

For the love of god, adjust npc's as the last update was way too far.

Do something to encourage action in osgilath map if that is possible at this point

Listen to Spilo, not sure anyone has put more time into offering ideas and suggestions over the years. Seems to me most if not all are backed up with logic and rationality with an effort to benefit both sides.

Let's get some Dev's playing along side its customers.

Looking forward to some viable changes in any fashion and thanks for addressing pvmp as it encompasses your most loyal and dedicated customers.

[Onror]

I've been a bit busy, but have now gone through and cleaned up more of the thread. I have now removed about thirty comments that drug the conversation off-topic. With some exceptions, we aren't particularly concerned with what one person thinks of another person's idea, and conversations that became a debate between two people over personality disputes have been removed. Overall this thread has been good, though, and very productive. We've received a lot of good analysis and feedback, and appreciate it.

*Cheers*

While rivalry and personal disputes are a natural part of human nature, let's keep this thread free of them. Save it for the Moors.

[Yelloweyedemon]

The only way you would make me play Lotro again, is if you would release legacy servers. Then we could all go back to playing the game we loved back in SoM. No store, no p2w, no stupid healing, no laughably OP classes.

Everything that hapened after RoI is a disgrace.

That is all

[Corwelleon]

I've been a bit busy, but have now gone through and cleaned up more of the thread. I have now removed about thirty comments that drug the conversation off-topic. With some exceptions, we aren't particularly concerned with what one person thinks of another person's idea, and conversations that became a debate between two people over personality disputes have been removed. Overall this thread has been good, though, and very productive. We've received a lot of good analysis and feedback, and appreciate it.

Glad that you found the feedback helpful. Given the major issues right now, it may be helpful to push a hot patch of the initial "fast passes" out to get things a little better as you work to continue the bracketing. E.g. the only way we can keep our Reavers alive is to stack 2-3 healers with them... we can do it, but it's really unfair. On the good side, solo play is dead on our server and most run in groups or raids (which may be a bad thing to some).

Cor/Aa

[DRNA]

This video is from May of this year, but I just came across it and found it worth watching.
In sum, get rid of audacity,
new creep class (unlikely),
npc scaling (since addressed but still lacking for freeps),
viable session play,
Osgiliath revamp (unlikely),
F2P update (potentially resulting in more players of the game),
sparring zone and system,
remove back doors to prevent farming (encourage variation)...... etc.

The Lord of the Rings Online:
PvMP & What Needs To Change? ~ 2017
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XqM--0vlRyM