update:whatever....THE SPILO VERSION

[Corwelleon]

These are excellent suggestions (particularly No. 7). A great pity that they have not been implemented.

I agree- absolutely excellent suggestions and a great short list for the Devs to consider as they (hopefully) continue to fix the Moors. My thanks to Spilo and others who actually took the effort to go spend time on Bullroarer and share their thoughts. Although we may not all agree on every suggestion, the spirit was well intended and helpful.

I’d also like to take a moment to acknowledge that Miss Kate is one of the best Defilers on on Landy and if it took 3 creeps to win a fight, that is likely a testament to her character as she selflessly groups with newbs and low-ranked alts all the time. We love you Kate! In fact, that’s the name of a small Tribe on our server...

Also, good to hear from Constrictions- I too miss Elendilmir and am happy to learn you are coming back to the Moors and game. Add Landy to your list of potential homes.

I considered addressing some of the other comments, but in the spirit of the season, I will simply wish you ALL a Merry Creepsmass! Those of us who love the game will continue to do our part to play with the hand that is dealt and will offer thoughtful and constructive suggestions when we can. Thank you to SSG for spending some dev time - we hope it continues. I’ll reserve my comments on the patch until I have actually spent some days playing with the revisions.

Cor/Aak

[Spilo]

I agree- absolutely excellent suggestions and a great short list for the Devs to consider as they (hopefully) continue to fix the Moors. My thanks to Spilo and others who actually took the effort to go spend time on Bullroarer and share their thoughts. Although we may not all agree on every suggestion, the spirit was well intended and helpful.

I’d also like to take a moment to acknowledge that Miss Kate is one of the best Defilers on on Landy and if it took 3 creeps to win a fight, that is likely a testament to her character as she selflessly groups with newbs and low-ranked alts all the time. We love you Kate! In fact, that’s the name of a small Tribe on our server...

Also, good to hear from Constrictions- I too miss Elendilmir and am happy to learn you are coming back to the Moors and game. Add Landy to your list of considered homes.

I considered addressing some of the other comments, but in the spirit of the season, I will simply wish you ALL a Merry Creepsmass! Those of us who love the game will continue to do our part to play with the hand that is dealt and will offer thoughtful and constructive suggestions when we can. Thank you to SSG for spending some dev time - we hope it continues. I’ll reserve my comments on the patch until I have actually spent some days playing with the revisions.

Cor/Aak

Kind words, Cord. Merry "creep"mas to you as well, my friend.

[ScribeEzra]

I'd like us all to take a minute and reflect on the good times we've had in the PVP world.........(one minute later).......thank you, now can we all go do something else?

[DrRabbitfoot]

So let's just pretend that the devs hired me as consultant for PvP balance, and completely ignored everyone else's feedback. Let's recap what I asked for, and what done:

1. Nerf Crit mag and Buff mastery. DONE!

2. Buff mitigations significantly and/or buff -inc damage for Creeps. Done half way.

3. Buff Critical Defense. Done!

4. Buff Finesse significantly. Not done.

5. Nerf Freep NPCs. Not done.

6. Buff racial traits across the board. Done half way.

7. Nerf Burg/Hunter in the Moors. Not done.

8. Examine standardization of Freeps and Freep armor sets through mandatory Audacity armor. Not done.

9. Put incoming healing back. Not done.


Even in situation when we discusses the position of Defiler heals, I did not mention it once in my specific Bullroarer feedback thread, because it was not on a priority fix list. Therefore Kate's accusation that I'm calling for Defiler heals but not Minstrel heals is unfounded and completely false.

Tell me out of ALL of those suggestions, which one do you think ruined PvP, Milt?

You're looking at the micro, I'm looking at the macro. You kept bringing creep damage and specifically warg claws crit damage into the discussion which gave the false impression that freeps needed help too. They don't. Only one side needed help. You, with good intentions, obfuscated the discussion and it's blatantly clear which comments the fast pass developer listened to. You should have just stayed quiet because you lended credence to the ridiculous moanings of the morons in this discussion. I screened several lightning storm deaths yesterday ranging from 155k to 210k. I have tact mits 4,5 and 6 slotted. And the hilarious part is loremasters are pretty low on the problem list right now.

So do really think creep crit magnifier needed to be part of the discussion?

[ScribeEzra]

Looking at your own list there Spilo, and it's funny to see you list at No1 of priorities 'Nerf Crit Mag' ...what you fail to mention is that you only meant 'Nerf CREEP Crit Mag' or am I mistaken? because freeps Crit multipliers are O.K as they are right?.....because 155k - 210k hits you don't see as a problem to creeps?....just be honest, you've ran your warg, got bored because every other warg can achieve similar dps to what you were doing and you didn't feel 'Special' or 'l33t' enough, and have spent the last 6 months calling for BC nerfs in creep ooc and forum posts, just admit you've seen the lie of the land and fancy a bit of 'Burg' action and don't want any pesky Creeps spoiling your fun.

the rest of your list reads like a suicide note of abject failure, on your private correspondance with Cordy and Vast.

Once again, thank you for input, now please leave.

[J-Moneyforever]

Looking at your own list there Spilo, and it's funny to see you list at No1 of priorities 'Nerf Crit Mag' ...what you fail to mention is that you only meant 'Nerf CREEP Crit Mag' or am I mistaken? because freeps Crit multipliers are O.K as they are right?.....because 155k - 210k hits you don't see as a problem to creeps?....just be honest, you've ran your warg, got bored because every other warg can achieve similar dps to what you were doing and you didn't feel 'Special' or 'l33t' enough, and have spent the last 6 months calling for BC nerfs in creep ooc and forum posts, just admit you've seen the lie of the land and fancy a bit of 'Burg' action and don't want any pesky Creeps spoiling your fun.

the rest of your list reads like a suicide note of abject failure, on your private correspondance with Cordy and Vast.

Once again, thank you for input, now please leave.

I'm just gonna chime in and say you should probably seek professional help and I feel bad for you. That's all.

I felt like you might have missed this from earlier but since nothing has changed I figured I'd just quote it.

[ScribeEzra]

yeah i read it originally, so what, the opinion of a burg means diddly to me...post it again if you like.

[Spilo]

You're looking at the micro, I'm looking at the macro. You kept bringing creep damage and specifically warg claws crit damage into the discussion which gave the false impression that freeps needed help too. They don't. Only one side needed help. You, with good intentions, obfuscated the discussion and it's blatantly clear which comments the fast pass developer listened to. You should have just stayed quiet because you lended credence to the ridiculous moanings of the morons in this discussion. I screened several lightning storm deaths yesterday ranging from 155k to 210k. I have tact mits 4,5 and 6 slotted. And the hilarious part is loremasters are pretty low on the problem list right now.

So do really think creep crit magnifier needed to be part of the discussion?

I kept bringing it up, because Creeps that weren't Wargs were getting screwed over since SSG decide to buff Crit mag for Creeps. Wargs have an auto crit that accounts for 50% of their damage, and that designed skill received an immense buff (not WAI) that other Creeps didn't get. Outside of VT and Dev Strike, there was literally zero reason to run anything but Wargs in GvG or RvR on Creepside. Buffing mastery and nerfing Crit mag is/was the only thing that could have been done to fix that wild discrepancy.

The reason that I continued to defend my position that Warg damage is, proportionately, too high is simply because it is (or was). It wasn't near Burg potential, or Hunter potential, or (now) LM potential, but it still made fights go far too fast when compared to 95, 100, and 105 cap. That being said, the primary reason for suggesting Warg re-assignment was to HELP other creeps that AREN'T wargs. I do agree that I have not done a good enough job clarifying that in certain posts, and I apologize for that.

[UsaByz]

I feel If the Dev devs responsible spent a little time playing this game,
and spend time trying and playing classes on live id say they would have more
of a clue. So instead of massive feedback they could see a thing or two for themselves.
Alternatively, we are being lied to about fix progress as turbine did.

-Chily

[J-Moneyforever]

yeah i read it originally, so what, the opinion of a burg means diddly to me...post it again if you like.

I see you can read sigs but not well enough to read (retired). I haven't played burg since early 105. I have more combined infamy on my characters than renown by far. I would suggest you try again but I'm afraid you'll just embarrass yourself even more.

[Constrictions]

@Constrictions if you are the same as named ingame I found you to be quite killable, not that you were out that much. Sure it resulted in the wargs death everytime with +14k dots, but I think they were good 1v1's,..of course adding Flumpy's bear to the equation resulted in you killing many creeps easily. Just standing up for the fact that there is a number of relevant wargs on Crick as well as other classes we just cant fight the 1shots at the steps where most of the freeps spend their time.

JMHO with respect,

Warpig

Hi Warpig, that's me. I can't remember the last time I fought you, assuming your warg is also named warpig. I'm guessing it was in the last consecutive stretch I played my warden in the moors, which is over a month ago? Feel free to correct me If it was, the build I was running then was quite a poor glasscannon PvE setup consisting of no audacity gear and mostly purple items. I don't think I'd even finished levelling up my LI - I had just over half the cap to wardens orc craft mits and about 35% crit defence. Since I've got more teals and aud gear, these stats have improved a lot. I'm still occasionally dying to wargs 1v1 when I have been roaming, but its rarer compared to that time, which was almost every single time I got ganked.

With that said, the wargs on Crick are decent, I didn't mean to say there are no good wargs on the server. In fact, with my experience from other populations a lot of the frequent wargs on Crick tend to be better than the average creep plarer. I guess the thing is, is that it is hard to gauge the skill of the player using the class when the current meta for said class includes no more than 5 low cooldown, high damage skills. There's just a different calibre of player that sticks in my memory from several years ago, which was quite easily separated from even most good wargs. Maybe this is just nostalgia, though, as the class was performing differently.

Regardless, thank for chiming in Warpig. Feel free to have a gank if you see me and we can test if things have changed Hopefully I'll catch you before I move.

Cheers

[Host-]

I’d also like to take a moment to acknowledge that Miss Kate is one of the best Defilers on on Landy and if it took 3 creeps to win a fight, that is likely a testament to her character as she selflessly groups with newbs and low-ranked alts all the time. We love you Kate! In fact, that’s the name of a small Tribe on our server...

Are you trolling? I'm not sure if serious or not

Kate only grouped with ''newbs'' because she wouldn't leave grams without a full raid.

I'd lost count the amount of times she would have everyone in raid map to grams, sit around for 30 minutes for our 3-6 man to disband then bring the raid out again to pve/zerg solos. Not to mention the amount of times i was accused of macro healing on mini by her and her tribe.

By far the worst group of players i've ever fought.

Please nerf npcs again so they can pve in the moors again. It's the only experience they've had in the moors.

Kate my love.
I've missed you

[Constrictions]

So do really think creep crit magnifier needed to be part of the discussion?

Overtuned critical magnitude is one of the biggest factors making hunters and burglars so powerful. I don't suppose you would object to discussions about reducing the critical magnitude of these classes. So why turn into an ### towards people over the same conversation about the same mechanic under all the same conditions, albeit on a different faction?

Controlling for the fact that creep mitigations were totally shot, it is exactly the same discussion with one other exception. It is a more productive conversation because its easier to tune creeps, than freeps.

[GrandCru]

Overtuned critical magnitude is one of the biggest factors making hunters and burglars so powerful. I don't suppose you would object to discussions about reducing the critical magnitude of these classes. So why turn into an ### towards people over the same conversation about the same mechanic under all the same conditions, albeit on a different faction?

Freep crit. magnitude keeps going up since imbued LI was introduced (From +50% to +146 for Champion, +25% to +73% for Hunter, +15% to +43.8% for Burglar, etc.).
And it's not going to change any time soon.
You keep to accommodately base your whole argumentation on wishful thinking / fallacious starting hypothesis.
While the bandwagon has conveniently downplayed the effects of the vanguard runes, and is, how bizarre, downplaying the effects of new raid loot.

Freeps were not going to be nerfed
Freeps have not been nerfed
Freeps are not going to be nerfed.

Freeps were going to be buffed
Freeps have been buffed
Freeps are going to be buffed.

Go figure, Honest!

I kept bringing it up, because

Because, in between other things, you ''could have sworn'' that Bestial Claws with ~100% crit chance was working as intended.

[DrRabbitfoot]

Overtuned critical magnitude is one of the biggest factors making hunters and burglars so powerful. I don't suppose you would object to discussions about reducing the critical magnitude of these classes. So why turn into an ### towards people over the same conversation about the same mechanic under all the same conditions, albeit on a different faction?

Controlling for the fact that creep mitigations were totally shot, it is exactly the same discussion with one other exception. It is a more productive conversation because its easier to tune creeps, than freeps.

As always, you and a couple of other posters continue to lump warg crit damage in with the discussion of hunters and burgs. They aren't in the same ballpark, not even close. A one-shot claws would need to be around 50k after mits for most freeps running around today to be anything close to what burgs and hunters are doing right now. It would have to be about 100k to be comparable with what loremasters are doing with their pet induced, insta cast 200k lightning storm crits. On the worst mitted glass canon freep, I don't think I've ever topped about 20k. So no, creep crit damage should not have been in the discussion at all.

There were other things that were so much more blatantly laughable to deal with first that even bringing wargs into the discussion at the same time was quite simply insane and got us to where we are now.

[Spilo]

Because, in between other things, you ''could have sworn'' that Bestial Claws with ~100% crit chance was working as intended.

Except 100% crit chance claws didn't break the class for, what, 3-4 years? Then it got broken because of crit magnitude. Gee, I wonder what the culprit is. The 100% crit, or the mechanic that made it hit so hard, and put Warg in 2x the DPS of other Classes (rough estimate)?

[siipperi]

Except 100% crit chance claws didn't break the class for, what, 3-4 years? Then it got broken because of crit magnitude. Gee, I wonder what the culprit is. The 100% crit, or the mechanic that made it hit so hard, and put Warg in 2x the DPS of other Classes (rough estimate)?

Actually got broken when they buffed claws damage. It already turned wargs stupid easy to play with.

[Spilo]

Actually got broken when they buffed claws damage. It already turned wargs stupid easy to play with.

Correct, that bumped it from around 40 to 50% in terms of actual damage output. They also buffed Maul which was a mistake.

[WhiteGoliath]

we know hunters, burgs are off the grid mister rabbitfoot

Only creeps need help, I agree with that, but do you understand that when you base all creeps on the damage of a hunter/burg, other freep classes will fall behind?

especially captain here, that class is overall never been that OP





except with heals ofc XDDDDD



but yes, I think the devs should experiment themselves with the creep classes to see how things work, statswise. The brabbeling from Spilo and Gilidor is going toomuch about "NERF THIS, BUFF THIS, BRING DOWN HUNTERS BY SO MUCH %"


that kind of stuff is totally irrelevant, pvmp got so far broken, that they need to completely replace the system. Freeps perhaps need to be scaled in a special PvMP system, that adjusts skills only on pvmp zones. You need to fix freep side first, if you want to bring complete balance, because the difference in dps between a captain and a hunter is ridiculous, even if its a medium class.


fix freep side first by balancing out the freep classes through a system or special gear that only is wearable in pvmp (then I mean gear that is actually better then PvE gear, this way you avoid the use of pve gear.

Btw, by better gear, I mean gear that is actually equalizing freeps by amount of stats that has been put in. Instead of being so ####ing lazy SSG, you could scale each set on each class like it was before.

then start balancing creeps on the freeps, since they are nicely equalized by then.

imo you guys should stop shouting about specific classes, start looking at pvmp overall, the system is completely broken

[Giliodor]

Only creeps need help, I agree with that, but do you understand that when you base all creeps on the damage of a hunter/burg, other freep classes will fall behind?

Implying something needs to be done about individual freep classes... ok. I agree.

The brabbeling from Spilo and Gilidor is going toomuch about "NERF THIS, BUFF THIS, BRING DOWN HUNTERS BY SO MUCH %" that kind of stuff is totally irrelevant

But when people make suggestions on how to balance individual classes, it's totally irrelevant? I'm not sure that you understand how this works.

You need to fix freep side first, if you want to bring complete balance, because the difference in dps between a captain and a hunter is ridiculous, even if its a medium class.

and yet...

that kind of stuff is totally irrelevant

Which one is it?

[WhiteGoliath]

Implying something needs to be done about individual freep classes... ok. I agree.



But when people make suggestions on how to balance individual classes, it's totally irrelevant? I'm not sure that you understand how this works.



and yet...



Which one is it?

geez, you should l2read



Its not about balancing captain on a hunter nablet

I talk about the overall balance on freepside, nothing is equal there, not even close

pls l2read be4 you argue against me again

what I point out here is an example, but ofc you with your illusive ideas like to jump in instantly and QQ about me talking specific about a class xD


you 2 talk toomuch about % based stuff, this aint gonna work, pls realize this, you only will make SSG dug a deeper hole for themselves.

the complete system should be adjusted, since freep stats scaling have changed after ages, last time was rohan I believe, where they removed mitigation from might and vitality

[Giliodor]

Its not about balancing captain on a hunter nablet

I talk about the overall balance on freepside, nothing is equal there, not even close

pls l2read be4 you argue against me again

what I point out here is an example, but ofc you with your illusive ideas like to jump in instantly and QQ about me talking specific about a class xD

Uhm... At what point did I even so much as imply it was only between captains and hunters?... Oh that's right, at no point did I do that. I said individual classes, meaning all the classes on freep side. I did not even mention you talking about a specific class.

geez, you should l2read

[WhiteGoliath]

Uhm... At what point did I even so much as imply it was only between captains and hunters?... Oh that's right, at no point did I do that. I said individual classes, meaning all the classes on freep side. I did not even mention you talking about a specific class.

pls l2read

[Justapvpdude]

When Zaheer and Kate are both responding in one thread, you know it's going to be a clownfiesta.

Subbed for future delusional jibberish.

[Giliodor]

Implying something needs to be done about individual freep classes... ok. I agree.

But when people make suggestions on how to balance individual classes, it's totally irrelevant? I'm not sure that you understand how this works.

and yet...

Which one is it?

Its not about balancing captain on a hunter nablet

I made no mention of either hunters or captains. It's plain to see. Just admit your mistake and be done with it.

I talk about the overall balance on freepside, nothing is equal there, not even close

Which is exactly what I said:

Implying something needs to be done about individual freep classes... ok. I agree.

you 2 talk toomuch about % based stuff, this aint gonna work, pls realize this, you only will make SSG dug a deeper hole for themselves.

What a nonsensical statement. It's numbers that have to be adjusted, so obviously we need to provide the amounts by which these numbers should be changed to make for a healthier PvMP environment.

the complete system should be adjusted, since freep stats scaling have changed after ages, last time was rohan I believe, where they removed mitigation from might and vitality

"The complete system should be adjusted"... Yeah that seems realistic, doesn't it? Much more realistic than simple number tuning, for sure.