Update 21.3 Observations from Play

[Corwelleon]

I thought I’d start a new thread to share some observations from the past four hours playing in the Moors as a Creep. I welcome others to share their ACTUAL experiences based on their play. These observations are based on my R10 BA on Landy.

Solo
I and three of my Tribe visited our seldom used 1:1 area and sparred with each other, then took turns sparring with a Champ played by one of the top Freeps (and Creeps for that matter) on our server. He was on his Champ (not his main toon).

Our R6 Spider got blown up but the fight went on for a while and seemed great sport. Our R7 Warg was able to win one and lose one in a very good series. Our R8 Defiler defeated him after a lengthy fight. My R10 BA won a narrow victory in the first round and I completely routed him in round 2 after a couple lucky crits on my big attacks and a strategic pot or two.

Prior to this patch, this same champ could have cleaned any of us up off the grass. I think all enjoyed our initial foray.

Small Group
The champ moved to his main (a feared hunter) then linked up with a purple badged minny and was able to wipe our small group near TR but they had to really work. We added a second warg and took the fight to them, winning after some long battles. We had to harass the minny and burn down the hunter a few times to win. Prior to this update, we needed to focus solely on the hunter as he would barrage any of us to oblivian before we could fully engage. The fights were fluid and lengthy- even our Wargs stayed up for some punishment!

After winning a few times, they came back with an added Champ and Cappy- all with purple badges. Head to head, we got rolled, but the fights were a bit longer than before the update. We added two more wargs and were able to hang pretty well, taking losses on both sides after retreating to Grams (ugh).

My initial observations were that the fights were lasting longer, the healers were tougher to kill and we had to initially hug Grams before pushing out with numbers.

Half Raid
They added another and we got up to 9-10 vs their 5-6 over the next hour or so. Fights started at Grams, but as we built numbers, we took the fight to EC then Lugz Rez. Very good fights against some of the best freeps we run up against. Our half CRAID was R6 - R11 but won after some long fights using our numbers. We only had one defiler, but he was able to heal through most of their DPS- which would NEVER have happened just yesterday.

Overall Observations
My first thought is that everyone seemed to be a bit happier than in a long while. The Creeps were burning down NPCs at EC and elsewhere and were able to hang in the fight with some good healing. Our Defiler got off a few 100k heals- so he seemed to be in a better place than some have feared. His job was made easier by better mitigated creeps. The crit D base stat was good enough that we were able to trait 4-6 mitigation’s and keep 6+ in offense. The fights were longer and involved more tactics, kiting and use of key terrain.

We did not meet any Burgs and the hunter still hit hard, but we healed through it and won with numbers. Their healers were tougher to kill which forced us to evolve our tactics. Rather than solely focusing on their hunter, we had to change targets quickly targeting their DPS as we harassed their healers- more or less how we used to do it. Prior to this update we had to focus solely on their DPS or die. Kill or be killed- quickly!

I have no issues with the Freeps being a bit stronger overall or they don’t show up. Our server has an active Creep population and thus relies on numbers when we are losing. Solo play is far more seldom, but our champ vs various Creeps test went better than expected. I am curious to hear about your solo and group play on other servers.

I encourage everyone who was concerned to get out there and test drive it for several hours before you cast judgement. It’s certainly not perfect, but our overall experience seemed far BETTER than it was. Thanks to our server’s bold Freeps who took the fight to us and made us work (hard). We shall see how things evolve and share with Vastin and the dev team to see if we can continue to make the Moors a better place.

Your constructive comments and shared experiences are welcome. Merry Creepsmass!

Cor/Aak

[Chompee]

I had a lot of fun tonight! Played both WL and champ, had a blast. Don't have time to try my other creeps, but I plan on playing more on both sides if tonight was any indication.

[searingskitso]

Didn't get many 1v1s roaming on ark. but the one's I got felt pretty good.
Really felt a bit more durable with mits traited. Fights lasted much longer and that was nice.

Small group, and duo were fun. If the freeps were not on point and focusing they would get wiped.

Partial raid v raid was nice to. ark has over 9000 wargs so it is hard to judge how the balance is quite yet.

Won some lost some.

The one fight we got that had very organized freeps the imbalance was very apparent.

We really need more time to judge how this will effect overall pvmp. Freeps will get new gear and new essence which will really flesh out how well these changes will take.

@tybur @ssg this is a lot better that last update, please monitor the balance especially if you plan on adding in Freep Audacity gear. -25% damage during this state could throw the balance way off again.

[jomanjy]

from a defiler perspective, creeps defence is much better now, same as creep crit D, and i like the crit mag nerf but still the incoming healing removal is a huge problem imo, heals seems ok by itself atm but once you join a fight and freep starting using the incoming healing debuffs on the target the heals become so low, not to mention that there is no raid relic showed up yet and with that it'll be a lot worse imo. but still creeps are better than before

[Saruman_Of_Numbers]

This is a small buff to creeps in the context of shuffling, zerging, and soloing (more mit in glasscannon builds).

But when fighting an elite freep group, creeps are much weaker.

Inc heal nerf hits hardest with HS, Subtle Stab, and RK debuffs meaning a whole lot more (and focused groups will use it).
Now even hard to kill fully geared elite freep groups with DPS nerf.

Fire RKs are laughing at the crit defense change (doesn't apply to them).

Burgs are still 1-shotting
LMs are still AOE 1-shotting
Hunters are still 1-shotting

[jomanjy]

This is a small buff to creeps in the context of shuffling, zerging, and soloing (more mit in glasscannon builds).

But when fighting an elite freep group, creeps are much weaker.

Inc heal nerf hits hardest with HS, Subtle Stab, and RK debuffs meaning a whole lot more (and focused groups will use it).
Now even hard to kill fully geared elite freep groups with DPS nerf.

Fire RKs are laughing at the crit defense change (doesn't apply to them).

Burgs are still 1-shotting
LMs are still AOE 1-shotting
Hunters are still 1-shotting

100% agree

[siipperi]

I think it's fairly reasonable assumption they gonna buff Beorning and RK heals in future considering amount of talk they have done about "fixing beorning" (probably means their usual change 3 things and claiming its proper balance fix). It would mean these classes get pushed closer to minstrel in terms of healing. Imo they should look into buffing all healers passive healing numbers good 20-30% and reduce efficiency of gems significantly, making healing change +/-0. That way they can get into more similar playing field in between players and could in theory lower freep healing a bit by placing passive, lets say, -20% incoming healing buff on freeps when entering ettenmoors. On top of that suggested critical magnitude nerf on freeps and tbh fixing hunter and burg shouldn't be PvP only changes but totally class fixing changes that revert most of blue changes, fix barrage tiering and make red line go to dps line, and nerf irrelevant rotational skill on CDG and small nerf on CA.

It's surprising how easy some of these things are that would result to immediate quality of life in PvP and in PvE, yet they are ready to sit on their backsides for months promising on changes in near future. Which in their case is usually half a year...

[Cordovan]

Thanks for the feedback, keep it coming.

[Spilo]

Thanks for the feedback, keep it coming.

Put as simply as I can:

Short Term: Finesse and Incoming healing for Creeps needs to be boosted. Also Burglars/Hunters will need a damage nerf of some sorts.

Mid Term: A few Freep classes will need some healing nerfs, and we will want to disable Backdoors in Combat.

Long Term: We need to completely remove all PvE gear (jewelry, armor, Legendary Items, etc) from PvP, and give out complete armor/jewelry/weapon sets for a small gold fee, and balance the Moors around that. That will increase the influx of folks into the Moors (and VIP subscriptions), as people who aren't interested in grinding in PvE for PvP will have an immediate option that is already balanced to what faction they will be facing. This system SHOULD have been implemented long ago, and will almost COMPLETELY cut down on the need for any future balance patches, as it will cut down on the number of balance variables by 95%.

For Creeps: SIGNIFICANTLY boost base stats (even further) and nerf the crud out of corruptions, so that they become minor little boosts, not the defining components of a build. Remove variables.


I already raised this concern elsewhere, as I'm sure you are aware of. But does SSG have the man-power to do anything other than small changes? A long term investment with the removal of PvE gear would save so much time and effort in the future, but I imagine it would be an investment at the moment.

[Corwelleon]

Thanks to all who have shared some very good thoughts. I hope that we can use this thread to discuss our ACTUAL playing experiences based on the changes made, to-date. Certainly each suggestion should be considered, but I hope this thread shares the good, the bad and the ugly from competing in the Moors both Solo and in Groups so that we can learn from each other and make this a fun experience for both sides- which is the real goal (I trust).

Cheers!

Cor/Aak

[DRNA]

Update Summary:
Creep Damage was nerfed but survivability increased.
The burden is still.. still.. still on the backs of Creep characters.
Creeps always adapt anyway, but burgs continue to be stupid OPed in some instances.
If ranked Freeps can't kill Creeps though they are either casuals, can't move very well,
or have gotten fat and lazy because they've had it too good for so long.

[Silverking77]

I already raised this concern elsewhere, as I'm sure you are aware of. But does SSG have the man-power to do anything other than small changes? A long term investment with the removal of PvE gear would save so much time and effort in the future, but I imagine it would be an investment at the moment.

I believe this is the real problem. This little company has had the budget squeezed so tight by greedy corporate types that they just cant employ any others.
I feel terrible for the abuse they take because in the end they are not responsible for the lack of funds invested in this venture yet they are the face we kick for this lack of development and maintenance.

I will go out on a limb here and say I bet they have less than 5 people working on new content/maintenance.

Warpig

[DRNA]

also..
many players out there on Freepside (at least on Arkenstone) don't seem to really want balance
as evidenced by their tendencies to zerg, run down lesser numbers, and generally farm points out of Creep characters
instead of enjoying a good drawn out fight which allows players to demonstrate an understanding of what skills actually do.
1v1s don't count because they just trade points back and forth anyway and have nothing to do with any kind of group play.

[Disperate]

My observations so far (from creep perspective):
1. The most significant change is the crit def boost, which seems to have gimped hunt/burg burst DPS, making them rather more timid than they were before.
2. The second most significant change is the nerf to inc heal, which is effectively a direct heal nerf, with heals almost 1/3 less than what they were before.
3. The mastery, finesse and other stat boosts are fairly negligible, making less difference than the 2 points above.

The crit def boost, whilst dampening hunt/burg bursts, doesn't affect RK's as someone already mentioned, so we can expect to see more RK's I think. The crit def boost also makes the heal nerf more palatable.

Since the update I've seen an increase in warg packs. These have been sadly lacking of late, as they would have helped combat the rampaging burgs. I suspect this is in part because gankers will gank and so they switched from burg because it is now a less effective ganking class. This ofc is not SSG's fault - they can't be blamed for player fickleness

Freeps generally seem more timid than before, so much so that the map on my server (EN, I almost wrote Snowbourne ) has been mostly red for two days and there have been several GV camps, a change from the normal Grams camp.

To the creeps who are hailing the end of the world on the forums and in OOC chat, these changes are actually not too bad. SSG gimped hunt/burg damage but in the process gimped the DPS of other freep classes, making for some fairly poor DPS on some freep classes.

Once the raid is out and the gear has been obtained, the new essences slotted, and the fraid adjusted to include more RK's, the tide may well turn again. In the meantime, creeps can feel a little more confident roaming the map with without a raid (not that many will ). The gap in balance has been reduced, a little, for now...

[Urundus]

Just wanna chime in as well, since I've had about ~25 1v1's yesterday evening. (I know it's not the best moors scenario, but it was pretty busy at GG that night since a long time.)

The overall increase in defences is definitely noticeable. Especially the increase in crit def. Crits hit for much lower than they used to do.
I've seen a lot more variety of classes out, not just the usual burgs and hunters. There seem to be more LM's and RK's around as well now.
Fights are lasting a lot longer. They can still go pretty fast with good crit luck, but it's not as bad as it used to be when they could be over in <10s on a regular basis.

As for creep stats. The lack of finesse is still very much noticeable. I soloed an OP that evening. It took well over 15 minutes and about 1/3rd of my attacks either got partial bpe'd or fully. Which is too high. Either increase the base value or get the old BFP's back. Same goes for incoming healing. (Can't say too much about the effect of it's removal currently. Haven't grouped yet.)

Reaver seems in a fairly decent spot right now though. Damage is not the highest there is but they are relatively tanky compared to other creep classes, which evens out the field. For once we didn't get the short end of the stick with an update. It could still use some small tweaks to a few skills here and there though.

If finesse and incoming healing get fixed I would say we're in a rather good spot. Until another update drops

[DrRabbitfoot]

I found it modestly better as a solo player. It was hilarious watching all the trash freeps on arkenstone hugging the gv stairs after this "massive nerf". As always, the one thing SSG will never be able to fix is the player base.

[Saruman_Of_Numbers]

Put as simply as I can:

Short Term: Finesse and Incoming healing for Creeps needs to be boosted. Also Burglars/Hunters will need a damage nerf of some sorts.

Mid Term: disable Backdoors in Combat.

This is what should get focus. These changes will pretty much round off to semi-decent quality PvMP


No need to nerf freep healing or remove PVE gear through, that's a step too far and would probably result in perma GV camp.

[Spilo]

This is what should get focus. These changes will pretty much round off to semi-decent quality PvMP


No need to nerf freep healing or remove PVE gear through, that's a step too far and would probably result in perma GV camp.

Not at all. Removing PvE gear would mean that balancing for Creeps would be 1 and done, no changes afterwards. Obviously some things will need changing afterwards, but it'd be the first step to permanent balance.

[Tirn]

Cor , you seem to be one of the nicest people out there , always optimistic and always well intentional but I can’t help thinking “naive”

A one liner from Cordovan is pretty disgraceful but just shows the attention or priority given to pvp by SSG . Speaks volumes for their intentions .

Lets be fair here and admit that the emperor is buck naked . Let’s not dress up an update for us that’s just inept .

Vastin should resign (if he isn’t gone already) because he totally failed to deliver anything that he said he was looking at addressing .His position is untenuous to say the least . What he did do is utterly embarrass Spilo and Gil but they shouldn’t feel down as it’s clear he didn’t listen to any suggestions or “feedback” they gave or indeed to those that anyone gave . I’ve no idea why Cordovan posts such a disingenuous thank you for the feedback other than he thinks it’s to appease people . Either way it’s an appalling example of customer service .

[subadar]

ok after some group play i can say that yes, there were changes made and a few ranked creeps grouped up, held up pretty good, longer fights were had (yay)

theres still such a wild disparity between geared and ungeared freeps as well as ranked and unranked creeps that IMO, your best bet is to play as intended and fight in GROUPS.

the ones who cry loudest in the forums always seem to be the 1v1 crowd and since SSG/Turbine have always said this game was not intended for, designed for, or balanced for 1v1 pvp, i can understand your frustration but parity between p and mp aint ever gonna happen, freep gear changes too much too often and i just dont think they have the resources to chase that down non stop.so most of your suggestions fall on deaf ears man, shouting louder, throwing tantrums threatening to take your ball and go home? not gonna work

i like the idea of freep pvp only gear for the ettenmoors instance, but i also enjoyed taking my geared up freep for the challenge of some dynamic, non scripted hard fighting against creeps (side note, thats why i dont freep in the moors anymore)

since LOTRO does not support any sort of PvP seasons, rankings, stats or meaningfull rewards for hardcore pvp, i'm not sure what you expect?

any game that allows scaled nonsense and non combat kills is not a serious pvp game, that not to say i dont have fun in it but this is not a pvp game to get worked up over.

pvmp was just a great mini game thats alot of fun in LOTRO. its getting fun again and that a plus.

[Corwelleon]

ok after some group play i can say that yes, there were changes made and a few ranked ranked creeps grouped up, held up pretty good, longer fights were had (yay)

theres still such a wild disparity between geared and ungeared freeps as well as ranked and unranked creeps that IMO, your best bet is to play as intended and fight in GROUPS.

the ones who cry loudest in the forums always seem to be the 1v1 crowd and since SSG/Turbine have always said this game was not intended for, designed for, or balanced for 1v1 pvp, i can understand your frustration but parity between p and mp aint ever gonna happen, freep gear changes too much too often and i just dont think they have the resources to chase that down non stop.so most of your suggestions fall on deaf ears man, shouting louder, throwing tantrums threatening to take your ball and go home? not gonna work

i like the idea of freep pvp only gear for the ettenmoors instance, but i also enjoy taking my geared up freep for the challenge of some dynamic, non scripted hard fighting against creeps (side note, thats why i dont freep in the moors anymore)

since LOTRO does not support any sort of PvP seasons, rankings, stats or meaningfull rewards for hardcore pvp, i'm not sure what you expect?

any game that allows scaled nonsense and non combat kills is not a serious pvp game, that not to say i dont have fun in it but this is not a pvp game to get worked up over.

pvmp was just a great mini game thats alot of fun in LOTRO. its getting fun again and that a plus.

I could not agree more with your thoughtful comments, and am glad to hear that most folks who took the test drive realize that this car at least has four wheels- a bit of an improvement over the basic Update 21. I’m tickled to hear that DrRabbit actually had a good time too!! It is a group game and we overcame challenges collectively.

I don’t believe I am naive when I admit that the game is not perfect but better than it was. I also want to hear more about your experiences playing. Are burgs still one-shotting anyone? Hunters seem more manageable (they may perceive a nerf, but its just better mits and crit - D for Creeps). The nerf to Creep crits caused some initial panic but seems to be leading to more satisfactory fights. If Freeps are on the defensive, it tells us that the face roll of the past few months is better- but will the trend continue or will they find the combo that is undefeatable (I.e. an all burg/hunter group from prior to the patch).

Thanks again for those who are sharing actual experiences and observations. Thanks to SSG for reading the thread and continuing to review the Moors.

Cor/Aak

[Saruman_Of_Numbers]

Removing PvE gear would mean that balancing for Creeps would be 1 and done, no changes afterwards.

Obviously some things will need changing afterwards

wait.. what?

Its easier to balance creeps against freeps than trying to tinker with freep mechanics through gear.

If changes need to be made to freeps, do it on a case-by-case basis, not by tinkering with complicated stats on gear that are thrice removed from skill effects.

Adjust creeps every update if needed, its easier to adjust 1 side per update/level increase than adjusting 2.

[Spilo]

wait.. what?

Its easier to balance creeps against freeps than trying to tinker with freep mechanics through gear.

If changes need to be made to freeps, do it on a case-by-case basis, not by tinkering with complicated stats on gear that are thrice removed from skill effects.

Adjust creeps every update if needed, its easier to adjust 1 side per update/level increase than adjusting 2.

But if you take the time to make PvP gear mandatory, then you wouldn't need to do any balancing between updates (outside of any specific class buffs that occur).

[subadar]

your single minded pursuit of perfect parity and combat balance in LOTRO pvmp is admirable if not misplaced.

SSG fell way behind updates for creeps, they realized it, are slowly making adjustments and hopefully it will be fun to play a creep again. (btw that makes more action for freeps)

creepside was always about having an escape from the pve grind, being able to group with friends and just have some fun fights.

same for freeps,when i'm at cap, had all the gear, locked out of raid etc etc, it was a blast to just come out and have some fights.

to have the freedom to move around a map, to use terrain, to command or be in a group of players responding to a dynamic environment, to be in an an instance thats not scripted, where combat is long and hangs on proper skill usage, grouping, tactics and yes some luck makes for some fun time wasting gameplay!

that to me is where LOTRO stood out from other MMO pvp games ive played and thats where LOTRO should be heading back to. sorry but catering to a handfull of players doing a 1v1 circle for hours at GG or osg map is not really a sustainable model for this game.

if you'd like to meet me for some serious pvp fire up the PS4 and lock and load.

[Seglord]

Just like Lucy holding the football for Charlie Brown, You all are falling for it again. lol